The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

wolfsbane

Sin City wrote: »

why would aliens be demonic?

I mean technicaly wouldnt God be classed as an alien?

They would be demonic because they can't be material - other material beings not mentioned in Scripture - and only demons (fallen angels) are prophesied as coming to deceive mankind.

God is certainly not part of any creation. But by alien I mean a creature not from this world.

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2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Corkfeen

wolfsbane wrote: »

They would be demonic because they can't be material - other material beings not mentioned in Scripture - and only demons (fallen angels) are prophesied as coming to deceive mankind.

God is certainly not part of any creation. But by alien I mean a creature not from this world.

Bloody Hell. Alien life hasn't even been discovered as of yet but you're already set on creating a new form of intolerance(a continuation of xenophobia)...... So just because they didn't mention it in the bible, it must be an evil demon..... I didn't ever think I'd read something so absurd. I guess someone calling quantum mechanics a pseudoscience in a topic where he claims that creationism is a real science is a bit more absurd... Admittedly that was Festus but I have a feeling that you'd concur with him.

mark renton

Your logic seems to be flawed

Festus wrote: »

No. Everything that has a begining has a cause.

This would imply that God having no beginning has no cause

wolfsbane

Cossax said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
Depends on how one reads it. If the animals have already been created and are then brought to Adam, it squares with the Genesis 1 account. Otherwise the accounts directly contradict. Is it likely that an author would place such a plain contradiction immediately following his first account?
Genesis 1:25-27
And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image.


Genesis 2:18-19
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.


Fairly unambiguous I'd have thought. I don't know why it'd be contradictory, maybe different writers/editors, but it is contradictory.

The Hebrew can be rendered as 'made' or 'had made', as the ESV tranlates:
Genesis 2:19 Now out of the ground the Lord God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. That makes sense of the whole passage. Even in secular literature one should not expect so blatant a contradiction in so short a space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfsbane
The rationalwiki article you linked to is the normal evolutionary propaganda. Attacking fellow-scientists in such a manner is not of course confined to attacks on creationists, but is common enough in inter-evolutionary spats. Ego is a big problem for humans, and scientific education does nothing to lessen it.
Evolutionary propaganda? Really?
There is nothing scientific about creationism, it is something entirely built on the Bible/faith - the least those who believe in it could do is be upfront about that instead of trying to coat it in some pseudo-scientific language.

Writing off the scientists who dissent from your theory is not good science. It drags down science into ideology and partisanship.

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Genesis 2:21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.

23 And Adam said:

“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”
24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

wolfsbane

Corkfeen wrote: »

Bloody Hell. Alien life hasn't even been discovered as of yet but you're already set on creating a new form of intolerance(a continuation of xenophobia)...... So just because they didn't mention it in the bible, it must be an evil demon..... I didn't ever think I'd read something so absurd. I guess someone calling quantum mechanics a pseudoscience in a topic where he claims that creationism is a real science is a bit more absurd... Admittedly that was Festus but I have a feeling that you'd concur with him.

The Bible is God's revelation of all we need to know for a righteous and holy life. If we were to encounter material aliens, we have no instructions as to how to deal with them. No commandment to love them as ourselves ( they are not fellow-men), nor permission to eat them (they are not part of this animal creation). God has not left us in such ignorance.

The only sentient beings outside of ourselves are the angels. The holy angels will not be appearing as aliens, telling us they are material beings from another world. Holy angels do not lie. But fallen angels do. Fallen angels = demons.

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2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

wolfsbane

Wh1stler wrote: »

It gets better and better; the God of truth will lie?

You really must make up your mind. Or God must.

The text does not say God lies. It says He gives men over to delusion, so that they will believe this final, monstrous lie of Satan. As a judgement for not believing the truth He send them in the gospel.

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2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

tommy2bad

wolfsbane wrote: »

The Bible is God's revelation of all we need to know for a righteous and holy life.
No problem with that bit.
If we were to encounter material aliens, we have no instructions as to how to deal with them. No commandment to love them as ourselves ( they are not fellow-men), nor permission to eat them (they are not part of this animal creation). God has not left us in such ignorance.
Unless He gave them permission to eat us
The only sentient beings outside of ourselves are the angels. The holy angels will not be appearing as aliens, telling us they are material beings from another world. Holy angels do not lie. But fallen angels do. Fallen angels = demons.

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2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

I just find it strange that you would preclude something on the grounds that it isn't in a book written a few thousand years ago. God didn't mention zippers or Internet or -and I might agree as to them being the devils work- iPods.

Monty Burnz

wolfsbane wrote: »

Yes, a tail like a cedar in size is moved by the beast. Seems plain enough to me.
<snip>
17 He moves his tail like a cedar;

So you are saying that the passage actually means 'he moves his tail (which is like a cedar in size)'? Perhaps we could have a look at the original language and see what that says?

wolfsbane

tommy2bad wrote: »

I just find it strange that you would preclude something on the grounds that it isn't in a book written a few thousand years ago. God didn't mention zippers or Internet or -and I might agree as to them being the devils work- iPods.

The Bible is not a 'dated' book - it is the word of God. He is not ignorant of all that comes to pass - indeed, He alone permits or prevents anything from happening.

Technology is technology - it differs from age to age, but is still just tools and constructions. Sentient life is quite another matter. It was created in the beginning, and described in Genesis.

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Lamentations 3:37 Who is he who speaks and it comes to pass,
When the Lord has not commanded it?
38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
That woe and well-being proceed?

Monty Burnz

wolfsbane wrote: »

The Bible is not a 'dated' book - it is the word of God. He is not ignorant of all that comes to pass - indeed, He alone permits or prevents anything from happening.

To be fair, if that is the case he had some very strange ideas about astronomy and some other areas (in addition to evolution). Why did he say that the earth does not move, when it moves through space and also spins around its own axis?

Psalms 93:1 "The Lord reigns, he is clothed with majesty; The Lord is clothed, He has girded Himself with strength. Surely the world is established so that it cannot be moved."

Wh1stler

lmaopml wrote: »

Just a tad extreme..:pac:

We're a while off from discovering sentient life - any life really....So I wouldn't worry too much about it. If we discover alien neanderthals somewhere out there you could always emigrate..:P

Hell, we still argue about what constitutes sentient life on this planet.

Look at the 'Keep Abortion Out Of Ireland' thread. :P

wolfsbane

Monty Burnz wrote: »

So you are saying that the passage actually means 'he moves his tail (which is like a cedar in size)'? Perhaps we could have a look at the original language and see what that says?

Not sure that will help:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H730&t=KJV

It's more our use of English that is in question. Does 'moving his tail like a cedar' mean moving it like a cedar moves, or does it mean its so big that when he moves it it is like waving a cedar around?

I say it's the latter.


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2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

wolfsbane

Monty Burnz wrote: »

To be fair, if that is the case he had some very strange ideas about astronomy and some other areas (in addition to evolution). Why did he say that the earth does not move, when it moves through space and also spins around its own axis?

Does moved mean physically unmoveable, or metaphorically unmoveable - its existence is secured by God? The context suggest the latter. And they would have been familiar with many earthquakes that shook the ground.


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1 Kings 19:11 Then He said, “Go out, and stand on the mountain before the Lord.” And behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind tore into the mountains and broke the rocks in pieces before the Lord, but the Lord was not in the wind; and after the wind an earthquake, but the Lord was not in the earthquake;

Monty Burnz

wolfsbane wrote: »

Does moved mean physically unmoveable, or metaphorically unmoveable - its existence is secured by God? The context suggest the latter. And they would have been familiar with many earthquakes that shook the ground.

I think it's pretty unambiguous - it will not be physically moved. A perfectly understandable statement, coming from uneducated farmers in hundreds of years BCE. There's no suggestion of metaphor at all there.

Wh1stler

Festus wrote: »

So we are back to square one. What caused the Universe to exist in the first place? The Big Bang.
What caused the Big Bang?

At last, at least you are not asking 'Who' caused the Universe to exist or 'who' caused the Big Bang.

You accept that at least one thing had no cause, God, so why not another; the Universe?

Wh1stler

Festus wrote: »

No. Everything that has a begining has a cause.

The Universe had a beginning therefore a cause is required.

God has no beginning therefore no cause is require.

And you know the Universe had a beginning because...?

tommy2bad

Wh1stler wrote: »

At last, at least you are not asking 'Who' caused the Universe to exist or 'who' caused the Big Bang.

You accept that at least one thing had no cause, God, so why not another; the Universe?

Which leaves us in the position of God and the universe either in opposition or symbiotic. Hadn't thought of the latter before, it's worth considering. Apart from Genessis is it that unbiblical, Dose God say that He will end the world or make it new, is the kingdom to be here or in some ethereal place? Astral planes or Kingdom come?

Wh1stler

Festus wrote: »

Perhaps you missed this line - it's near the start:

Neanderthals are classified either as a subspecies of Homo sapiens (Homo sapiens neanderthalensis) or as a separate human species (Homo neanderthalensis)

So you see - Human

Now, what other non human sentient beings did you have in mind?

Or are you confusing Star Trek with real life again.

The point being that the first humans predate Adam (the first homo sapiens) by about 400,000 years?

Unless of course you believe that neanderthals were the species that God gave dominion over the Earth to.

And by the way, cats and dogs are sentient beings too.

Wh1stler

Morbert wrote: »

Why is there a God rather than nothing?

LOL. I see where you are confused; God created nothing.

Including Himself.

HamletOrHecuba

Zombrex wrote: »

Are homo neanderthalens homo sapiens? (hint, the clue is in the name).

Neanderthals were not that much different from cro magon man according to the latest research. They also buried their dead and took care of handicapped members of their communities.

Wh1stler

wolfsbane wrote: »

Job 40:“Look now at the behemoth, which I made along with you;
He eats grass like an ox.
16 See now, his strength is in his hips,
And his power is in his stomach muscles.
17 He moves his tail like a cedar;
The sinews of his thighs are tightly knit.
18 His bones are like beams of bronze,
His ribs like bars of iron.

So how come we don't find rusty skeletons?

Wh1stler

wolfsbane wrote: »

They would be demonic because they can't be material - other material beings not mentioned in Scripture - and only demons (fallen angels) are prophesied as coming to deceive mankind.

MP3 players and Apple Macs aren't mentioned either; are they 'demonic' too?

Zombrex

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Neanderthals were not that much different from cro magon man according to the latest research. They also buried their dead and took care of handicapped members of their communities.

Yes, that is the point.

Wh1stler

wolfsbane wrote: »

Genesis 2:21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.

Did God take the rib of a bull to make a cow or the rib of a cock to make a hen?

The anatomical difference between man and woman is repeated throughout the mammal world.:P

Wh1stler

wolfsbane wrote: »

The only sentient beings outside of ourselves are the angels. The holy angels will not be appearing as aliens, telling us they are material beings from another world. Holy angels do not lie. But fallen angels do. Fallen angels = demons.

Do you even know what 'sentience' means?

tommy2bad

Wh1stler wrote: »

Did God take the rib of a bull to make a cow or the rib of a cock to make a hen?

Er I doubt it, He could have but then when it came to pigs....He would have made BBQ ribs, nom nom nom.

Wh1stler

wolfsbane wrote: »

The text does not say God lies. It says He gives men over to delusion, so that they will believe this final, monstrous lie of Satan. As a judgement for not believing the truth He send them in the gospel.

Delusion:

a. The act or process of deluding.
b. The state of being deluded.

Delude:

1. To deceive the mind or judgment of: fraudulent ads that delude consumers into sending in money. See Synonyms at deceive.
2. Obsolete To elude or evade.
3. Obsolete To frustrate the hopes or plans of.

The problem is that you are so used to mis-interpteting the Bible that the actual definitions of words have become lost to you.

This is as a result of self-inflicted 'strong delusion'.

Wh1stler

wolfsbane wrote: »

The Bible is not a 'dated' book - it is the word of God. He is not ignorant of all that comes to pass - indeed, He alone permits or prevents anything from happening.

Such as miscarraiges and ectopic pregnancies; such as murder?

What effect does this line of thought have on free-will? We are endowed with free-will but can only exercise it when permitted?

Wh1stler

Monty Burnz wrote: »

To be fair, if that is the case he had some very strange ideas about astronomy and some other areas (in addition to evolution). Why did he say that the earth does not move, when it moves through space and also spins around its own axis?

And what made Him think that exploding stars and colliding galaxies were a good idea?

tommy2bad

Wh1stler wrote: »

And what made Him think that exploding stars and colliding galaxies were a good idea?

Carbon distribution, without it life doesn't happen.