The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

Wh1stler

tommy2bad wrote: »

They might but that wouldnt be biblical.
The bible tells us were screw ups who needed God Himself to fix it. Special? special needs more like.

You believe that you are a screw-up because the Bible tells you so?

I don't believe that I'm a screw-up because the Bible doesn't know me. I know the Bible though and it reads like a hand-book on how to be a lousy parent.

Chastise, criticise, demean. This is not the way to produce well rounded, right-thinking, happy human-beings.

But of course, this is not what religion was designed for, is it? Do what the priests say or suffer eternal torture is more about control than maximising potential.

This really is too easy. Like shooting fish in a barrel.

Festus

Wh1stler wrote: »

You're not only snookered but you are also in trouble with your English teacher too.

Glass houses etc.

Fixed. However I don't see how I can be snookered if the only example is one from quantum mechanics given that the Universe is a wee bit more macro than that.

Quantum fluctuations are interesting but the particles are extemely short lived according to the mathematics and not visible.

The universe on the other hand...

Wh1stler

Festus wrote: »

Fixed. However I don't see how I can be snookered if the only example is one from quantum mechanics given that the Universe is a wee bit more macro than that.

Quantum fluctuations are interesting but the particles are extemely short lived according to the mathematics and not visible.

The universe on the other hand...

I have seen a tiny laser spot create amazing images.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4LPXnbHeO0

The spot is tiny and at each position for almost no time at all.

Sin City

Festus wrote: »

Wh1stler wrote: »

You're not only snookered but you are also in trouble with your English teacher too.

Glass houses etc.

Fixed. However I don't see how I can be snookered if the only example is one from quantum mechanics given that the Universe is a wee bit more macro than that.

Quantum fluctuations are interesting but the particles are extemely short lived according to the mathematics and not visible.

The universe on the other hand...

but it does happen,.science just isnt advanced enough yet to show that it is possible.

im still waiting for a rejection of my null hypothesis btw

wolfsbane

Zombrex wrote: »

The Bible states that out of all life God produced humans as special among them, and placed humans as having dominion over all the other animals.

That gets a bit harder to explain when a Kartasian battleship arrives in orbit around us and threatens to glass the surface of the planet. Though I guess at that point people will have bigger things to worry about contradictions of Christian faith :P

Well put.

Yes, authentic alien life-forms would be the last straw for any thinking Christian. Such an omission from God's revelation would call in question the whole thing.


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Genesis 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

tommy2bad

wolfsbane wrote: »

Well put.

Yes, authentic alien life-forms would be the last straw for any thinking Christian. Such an omission from God's revelation would call in question the whole thing.


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Genesis 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Why? the bible isn't a complete encyclopedia of all creation, if an alien life form wrecks the story why didn't a heliocentric world view wreck it, or evolution, or a hundred discoveries that contradict the biblical descriptions.?
It might further entrench fundi protestants but otherwise any discovery of alien life will be Grist to a missionary mill.

wolfsbane

Sin City wrote: »

Ok, the Christians among us here answer me this question. If ye believe that God put us on this planet and formed space and other planets light years away and different galaxies and different universe sand had space going on for an infinity and the only life he had ever created was on earth why have anything beyond earth? what would be the point or is it just some pyrotechnics to keep him amused?

Wouldnt an equally valid hypothesis is that God played no hand in the formantion of the universe through billions of years of evolution and possible a high degree of chance that life did evolve on this planet.

It is true that no one knows for certain the how life came to be , ie simple ,microbial life although there have been many many theories (most more substantial than a man with a big white beard was messing with his new chemistry set when he accidentdly dropped a vial) some which are radical like exogenesis or even that life actually originated a multitude of times. But these are all valid hypothesis and not just saying that God did it

The point would be to display His glory to us - the more we see/know about the immensity and laws of the universe, the more we are awed. Also, to display the same to the angelic creation.

The various creation accounts have various levels of scientific validity. The current consensus deep time/spontaneous generation of life, is contested by creationist scientists ( a small minority). Both sorts have scientific validity, but that is not to say scientifically either are correct. Scientific proof of origins will be very difficult to establish.

The Christian view of origins is based primarily on revelation, not on science. But on the same revelatory basis we know that correct science will eventually back up the revealed truth of origins. Creationist scientists do not just say, 'God did it'. They go on to advance scientific argument to support the assertion that God did it.

The concept of chance origin of life is disputed, mostly on the basis of how difficult it is to achieve the simplest life-form.

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Romans 1: 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

wolfsbane

tommy2bad wrote: »

Why? the bible isn't a complete encyclopedia of all creation, if an alien life form wrecks the story why didn't a heliocentric world view wreck it, or evolution, or a hundred discoveries that contradict the biblical descriptions.?
It might further entrench fundi protestants but otherwise any discovery of alien life will be Grist to a missionary mill.

Because a heliocentric view is not contrary to the Scriptures, any more than a weatherman talking of sunrise is advancing a non-heliocentric view.

Evolution is contrary to the Scriptures, so I agree with your point that many Christians have been able to fit it in their faith. But they do so in desperation, and it does undermine the faith of many of those who belief it, especially those who think through the implications. That would be the case with proof of alien life too, I believe.

I know of no discoveries that contradict biblical descriptions. I'll be happy to respond to any list you provide.

The Bible is not an encyclopedia, but it is the revelation of God's relationship to man. As Zombrex pointed out, that relationship is very special. We are privileged above even the angels. To omit to tell us of another intelligent creation would be truly beyond belief.

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Genesis 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

tommy2bad

wolfsbane ;
Creationist scientists do not just say, 'God did it'. They go on to advance scientific argument to support the assertion that God did it.

No, they torture the truth until it admits they are right.
Come on, you cant really believe that God wouldn't leave out things that have no part of the story that the bible tells? If you believe, as I do btw, that it is the revelation of God's relationship to man, what has evolution or alien life to do with that narrative?

Evolution is contrary to the Scriptures, so I agree with your point that many Christians have been able to fit it in their faith. But they do so in desperation,

Thats just laughable, its the creationists who are desperate.

HamletOrHecuba

wolfsbane wrote: »

Well put.

Yes, authentic alien life-forms would be the last straw for any thinking Christian. Such an omission from God's revelation would call in question the whole thing.

Evolution also destroys the very ground of the Christian worldview aqd makes a mockery of not only Baptism but the Lord's Sacrifice on the Cross. Im not God but I find it hard to believe that any evolutionist will be saved outside of children who died before they were in a position to question properly.

Interesting point about authentic alien life. So called Alien vistitations fit into a records of demonic activity from the past.

lmaopml

Zombrex wrote: »

The more examples of life there are the less special humans appear. The less special humans appear the less justification for the assertion that we are special. Some people don't like that, preferring to think we have a special place in the universe.

Ah but that is the entire message of the Gospels that 'humans' are special - that's how we live, love and try to act in a virtuous way, because somehow we are 'special' - even denying our 'special'ness' makes us 'special'

What that has to do with whether God in his infinit wisdom decided to create Kardasians or Klingons etc. is a moot point. - What if they visited and spoke of Christ? What then? Although, it's obviously a long way off from happening....lol...

Of course it's entirely a different thing to have 'faith' or lack of 'faith' because of some notion that humans search the universe - or indeed argue that we should not search the universe, which we do, and it's not a bad thing, it's 'good' and a fearless thing to search and discover and learn more about truth, it's what we seem to be fashioned to do, and do so fearlessly.

Wh1stler

wolfsbane wrote: »

Well put.

Yes, authentic alien life-forms would be the last straw for any thinking Christian. Such an omission from God's revelation would call in question the whole thing.

If an alien force came to earth in possession superior military technology then religionists would simply claim that it was the result of an interventionist Satan.

It might make some of us reconsider our free-will choices but it needn't call the Bible into question.

Wh1stler

wolfsbane wrote: »

Romans 1: 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

If there is any truth in the Bible then it is in this verse. It is actually a very beautiful way to put it.

What a pity that they had to confuse the issue by building a bible around it.

Every word of Romans 1:20 could easily be an expression of the nature of vacuum fluctuations; the source of the Universe.

'The sap rises, the sap falls; such is the power of quantum dynamics.'

If God could be defined as the nature of the Universe, for better or worse, for good or bad; no will to be but unable to remain constant then I think atheism would become an amusing relic of the past.

tommy2bad

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Evolution also destroys the very ground of the Christian worldview aqd makes a mockery of not only Baptism but the Lord's Sacrifice on the Cross. Im not God but I find it hard to believe that any evolutionist will be saved outside of children who died before they were in a position to question properly.

Interesting point about authentic alien life. So called Alien vistitations fit into a records of demonic activity from the past.

The dark heart of a creationist viewpoint right their.
They fit angelic visitations too.

Festus

Wh1stler wrote: »

I have seen a tiny laser spot create amazing images.

So you have seen cause and effect. Most enlightening.

HamletOrHecuba

tommy2bad wrote: »

The dark heart of a creationist viewpoint right their.
They fit angelic visitations too.

Well demons are angels however if you mean they fit non-fallen angelic vistations well no they dont. They dont bring messages from God.

http://onbehalfofall.org/2011/02/09/an-orthodox-view-of-ufos/

Zombrex

lmaopml wrote: »

Ah but that is the entire message of the Gospels that 'humans' are special

Correct. And the more examples we find that we aren't the less believable the Gospels become.

Personally I think Nethanderals should have destroyed the human centric Christian view of the universe, but to each their own.

Monty Burnz

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Evolution also destroys the very ground of the Christian worldview aqd makes a mockery of not only Baptism but the Lord's Sacrifice on the Cross. Im not God but I find it hard to believe that any evolutionist will be saved outside of children who died before they were in a position to question properly.

You have yet to explain to me how science works to advance knowledge in every other field of research, but not it evolution. It showed that much of what the bible says is total nonsense - even you must accept that the sun does not orbit the earth?

So why does it work fine in many thousands of areas of research, but not in explaining the origins of life? Explain please.

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Interesting point about authentic alien life. So called Alien vistitations fit into a records of demonic activity from the past.

So you think there might be alien life with superior intelligence, but God forgot to mention it to his 'highest creation'? Presumably these aliens are 'beasts' over which we have dominion? I hope God at least told them.

Monty Burnz

Festus wrote: »

So you have seen cause and effect. Most enlightening.

And you have been given a clear example of things that can occur with no apparent cause, but you seem to be pretending it hasn't happened.

Wh1stler

Festus wrote: »

So you have seen cause and effect. Most enlightening.

No, just the effect.:P

Festus

Monty Burnz wrote: »

And you have been given a clear example of things that can occur with no apparent cause, but you seem to be pretending it hasn't happened.

No. The tiny laser caused it.

Or maybe a big laser

Apololgies if this is a bit simplistic but I'm sure if you really want to know you can do the research on how lasers and laser projectors work in your own time.

http://www.laserfx.com/FAQ/FAQ2.html

http://www.instructables.com/id/Laser-Image-Projector/

Monty Burnz

Festus wrote: »

No. The tiny laser caused it.

Or maybe a big laser

The example was at the quantum level, not the laser stuff. I learned how lasers worked when I was 10, but thanks for the links.

So how about addressing the causeless events that occur in quantum mechanics, without the (bizarre) defence that it doesn't count because it is small?

Wh1stler

Festus wrote: »

No. The tiny laser caused it.

The point is (no pun intended) that the images created by the laser point never actually exist. Never.

And yet we see the images.

Quantum fluctuations are similar in some respects to the laser point; we can't look at a laser generated image and know where the point is at any given time.

In other words, tiny quantum fluctuations caused it.

wolfsbane

Wh1stler wrote: »

If there is any truth in the Bible then it is in this verse. It is actually a very beautiful way to put it.

What a pity that they had to confuse the issue by building a bible around it.

Every word of Romans 1:20 could easily be an expression of the nature of vacuum fluctuations; the source of the Universe.

'The sap rises, the sap falls; such is the power of quantum dynamics.'

If God could be defined as the nature of the Universe, for better or worse, for good or bad; no will to be but unable to remain constant then I think atheism would become an amusing relic of the past.

It's much more awesome than your materialistic concept. God created nature; He is not nature, He is infinitely greater.

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Romans 1: 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

wolfsbane

Wh1stler wrote: »

If an alien force came to earth in possession superior military technology then religionists would simply claim that it was the result of an interventionist Satan.

It might make some of us reconsider our free-will choices but it needn't call the Bible into question.

UFOs may well be demonic manifestations, and they might indeed present themselves as material aliens. BUT if this occupying force continued to exist over, say, a generation, that would disprove the Bible. It has a very different scenario for Satan's assault at the End.

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2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

wolfsbane

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Evolution also destroys the very ground of the Christian worldview aqd makes a mockery of not only Baptism but the Lord's Sacrifice on the Cross. Im not God but I find it hard to believe that any evolutionist will be saved outside of children who died before they were in a position to question properly.

Interesting point about authentic alien life. So called Alien vistitations fit into a records of demonic activity from the past.

People, including Christians, can hold self-contradictory beliefs. Sleight-of-mind reasoning does the trick. So I'm hopeful for many of our theistic evolutionist brethren.

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2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

wolfsbane

tommy2bad said:

Quote:
wolfsbane ;
Creationist scientists do not just say, 'God did it'. They go on to advance scientific argument to support the assertion that God did it.
No, they torture the truth until it admits they are right.
Come on, you cant really believe that God wouldn't leave out things that have no part of the story that the bible tells? If you believe, as I do btw, that it is the revelation of God's relationship to man, what has evolution or alien life to do with that narrative?

The narrative is an opposing account of origins to that of evolution. It also, with further information from the rest of the Bible, describes man's position with regard to God. Other creations simply do not fit with the Biblical account.

Quote:
Evolution is contrary to the Scriptures, so I agree with your point that many Christians have been able to fit it in their faith. But they do so in desperation,
Thats just laughable, its the creationists who are desperate.

We know we are right, so no need for desperation. At best, you guys think it likely you are right. But scientific assurance has failed before - indeed, that is its boast.

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2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Sonics2k

wolfsbane wrote: »

UFOs may well be demonic manifestations, and they might indeed present themselves as material aliens. BUT if this occupying force continued to exist over, say, a generation, that would disprove the Bible. It has a very different scenario for Satan's assault at the End.

Oh come on! This has got to be a joke!

tommy2bad

wolfsbane wrote: »

People, including Christians, can hold self-contradictory beliefs. Sleight-of-mind reasoning does the trick. So I'm hopeful for many of our theistic evolutionist brethren.

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2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

I always think that the tension between two opposing truths is where faith lies.
Slight of mind? not at all, Believing that people who hold evolution to be true are damned or that aliens are demonic? Now thats slight of mind, in the sense of http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slight

wolfsbane

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Have you ever seen a cedar move? Nor have I. The leaves and twigs move in the wind. Occasionally, in a very strong wind, a branch might move.

Do you have any reason to think that the passage refers to the whole tree? A tree that does not move?

So the picture could have used a shrub instead of a cedar? Don't you think size was the point? All the other aspects highlighted the magnificence of the beast. Waving its tail like a twig doesn't do much for that.

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Romans 1: 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,