The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

tommy2bad · 22-03-2012 9:58pm

Festus ;
So still no evidence of how this life you believe in on some planet ina goldilocks zone is going to arise.

No but theirs an example of it happening here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth
If it happened once, it can happen again.

Festus · 22-03-2012 10:18pm

tommy2bad wrote: »

No but theirs an example of it happening here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth
If it happened once, it can happen again.

and how did life start there?

Zombrex · 22-03-2012 10:24pm

Festus wrote: »

Evidence of a planet in a goldlocks zone is not evidence of life, is it.

I've flipped a coin a thousand times. You have not seen the results of this flipping, but I still ask you is it reasonable to believe that at least one of those times the coin come up heads?

The answer would seem to be yes, very reasonable given that the alternative, that I flip the coin 1000 time and every single time it is tails, seems rather improbable.

If you said yes though I would ask how do you have evidence for this given that I haven't shown you the results of a single coin toss yet? Surely you cannot have any evidence for what any of the coins are until you have seen the results of the tosses.

Of course in actual fact you can because you can use evidence of both the nature of the coin and the amount of times I was flipping it to make a very reasonable conclusion that at least one of those 1000 flips the coin will have landed heads. You cannot demonstrate this with certainty without the results, but it is hardly "faith" to believe that has happened.

Anyone who doesn't think life has arisen else where in the universe is either greatly over estimating how difficult it is for life to arise on a planet, or greatly underestimating the size of the universe (in my experience it tends to be the latter, since the actual size of the universe is so huge as to make it very difficult to properly comprehend).

mark renton · 22-03-2012 10:41pm

Zombrex wrote: »

(in my experience it tends to be the latter, since the actual size of the universe is so huge as to make it very difficult to properly comprehend).

tis big

tommy2bad · 22-03-2012 11:42pm

john47832 wrote: »

tis big

So needs a 'yo moma

Festus · 22-03-2012 11:54pm

Zombrex wrote: »

I've flipped a coin a thousand times. You have not seen the results of this flipping, but I still ask you is it reasonable to believe that at least one of those times the coin come up heads?

The answer would seem to be yes, very reasonable given that the alternative, that I flip the coin 1000 time and every single time it is tails, seems rather improbable.

If you said yes though I would ask how do you have evidence for this given that I haven't shown you the results of a single coin toss yet? Surely you cannot have any evidence for what any of the coins are until you have seen the results of the tosses.

Of course in actual fact you can because you can use evidence of both the nature of the coin and the amount of times I was flipping it to make a very reasonable conclusion that at least one of those 1000 flips the coin will have landed heads. You cannot demonstrate this with certainty without the results, but it is hardly "faith" to believe that has happened.

Anyone who doesn't think life has arisen else where in the universe is either greatly over estimating how difficult it is for life to arise on a planet, or greatly underestimating the size of the universe (in my experience it tends to be the latter, since the actual size of the universe is so huge as to make it very difficult to properly comprehend).

isn't appeal to probability a logical fallacy?

that said...

I know how to flip a coin.

I do not know how life began.

do you?

Zombrex · 23-03-2012 12:01am

Festus wrote: »

isn't appeal to probability a logical fallacy?

Depends on what you are trying to demonstrate.

Festus wrote: »

I know how to flip a coin.

I do not know how life began.

do you?

I've a fairly good idea. The conditions of the early Earth seem ideal for producing self replicating molecules, of which there are a limited number of varieties.

Sin City · 23-03-2012 9:57am

Ok, the Christians among us here answer me this question. If ye believe that God put us on this planet and formed space and other planets light years away and different galaxies and different universe sand had space going on for an infinity and the only life he had ever created was on earth why have anything beyond earth? what would be the point or is it just some pyrotechnics to keep him amused?

Wouldnt an equally valid hypothesis is that God played no hand in the formantion of the universe through billions of years of evolution and possible a high degree of chance that life did evolve on this planet.

It is true that no one knows for certain the how life came to be , ie simple ,microbial life although there have been many many theories (most more substantial than a man with a big white beard was messing with his new chemistry set when he accidentdly dropped a vial) some which are radical like exogenesis or even that life actually originated a multitude of times. But these are all valid hypothesis and not just saying that God did it

tommy2bad · 23-03-2012 10:14am

Sin City ;
why have anything beyond earth?

Sure why not?

Sin City · 23-03-2012 10:16am

tommy2bad wrote: »

Sure why not?

Why not indeedd
Maybe God was a stoner and like all the pretty colours:D:D

tommy2bad · 23-03-2012 10:22am

Sin City wrote: »

Why not indeedd
Maybe God was a stoner and like all the pretty colours:D:D

Or just creative and had to keep on creating, who knows maybe He hasn't finished yet

Festus · 23-03-2012 1:38pm

Zombrex wrote: »

Depends on what you are trying to demonstrate.

I'm not the one attempting to present an argument based on probablility.

Zombrex wrote: »

I've a fairly good idea. The conditions of the early Earth seem ideal for producing self replicating molecules, of which there are a limited number of varieties.

A good idea. Do you think that is enough? Either the mechanism by which life appeared is known or it is not known.
So, do you know or not know how life began?

Either science can answer the question or it cannot. If it can it should do so. If it cannot it should admit that that is the demarcation and it is not even going to bother to find out.
If the latter then it must leave the answer to another area of study.

Festus · 23-03-2012 2:02pm

Sin City wrote: »

Ok, the Christians among us here answer me this question. If ye believe that God put us on this planet and formed space and other planets light years away and different galaxies and different universe sand had space going on for an infinity and the only life he had ever created was on earth why have anything beyond earth? what would be the point or is it just some pyrotechnics to keep him amused?

Wouldnt an equally valid hypothesis is that God played no hand in the formantion of the universe through billions of years of evolution and possible a high degree of chance that life did evolve on this planet.

It is true that no one knows for certain the how life came to be , ie simple ,microbial life although there have been many many theories (most more substantial than a man with a big white beard was messing with his new chemistry set when he accidentdly dropped a vial) some which are radical like exogenesis or even that life actually originated a multitude of times. But these are all valid hypothesis and not just saying that God did it

Due to the loaded nature of the narrative it would be unfair to describe these as valid hypotheses, or even hypotheses.

Perhaps state the null hypothesis as the Big Bang had a cause.

You can then set about finding the evidence to reject the null hypothesis. A suggested method would be to find other situations where there is an effect with no observable cause and extrapolate.

Sin City · 23-03-2012 3:06pm

Festus wrote: »

Due to the loaded nature of the narrative it would be unfair to describe these as valid hypotheses, or even hypotheses.

Perhaps state the null hypothesis as the Big Bang had a cause.

You can then set about finding the evidence to reject the null hypothesis. A suggested method would be to find other situations where there is an effect with no observable cause and extrapolate.

Such as quantim physics where particals can appear out of nothing?
That has already been tested and proven.

How about we have a Null Hypothesis that God doesnt exist

Who can find evidence to reject the Null hypothesis

mark renton · 23-03-2012 3:12pm

:rolleyes:

I do believe your snookered Fetus

Festus · 23-03-2012 3:26pm

Sin City wrote: »

Such as quantim physics where particals can appear out of nothing?
That has already been tested and proven.

Citations?

Festus · 23-03-2012 3:37pm

john47832 wrote: »

:rolleyes:

I do believe your snookered Fetus

I do believe your English teacher would be very annoyed with you

Sin City · 23-03-2012 4:26pm

Festus wrote: »

Citations?

Ill have to go look for them
In the meantime you can watch this

watch?feature=player_embedded&v=7ImvlS8PLIo#!

Festus · 23-03-2012 4:35pm

Sin City wrote: »

Ill have to go look for them
In the meantime you can watch this

Sorry, too busy firing up my particle accelerator to see what effects it can cause and cleaning down my black boards to write up some equations to explain in conceptual terms the anomalies that are observable when particles are banged in to each other at high speed to see if causing an action can cause a particle to effectively appear out of nothing and then see if I can write off the cause as non existent.

Sin City · 23-03-2012 4:38pm

Festus wrote: »

Sin City wrote: »

Ill have to go look for them
In the meantime you can watch this

Sorry, too busy firing up my particle accelerator to see what effects it can caused and cleaning down my black boards to write up some equations to explain in conceptual terms the anomalies that are observable when particles are banged in to each other at high speed to see if causing an action can cause a particle to effectively appear out of nothing and then see if I can write off the cause as non existent.

at least im making an attempt to justify my beliefs

can the same.be said for a belief in god other than the bible/jesus said so ?

Festus · 23-03-2012 4:49pm

Sin City wrote: »

at least im making an attempt to justify my beliefs

can the same.be said for a belief in god other than the bible/jesus said so ?

Yes, the same can be said.

Zombrex · 23-03-2012 11:48pm

Festus wrote: »

I'm not the one attempting to present an argument based on probablility.

No, you are the one pondering whether appeals to probability are a logical fallacy. And I pointed out that that depends on what you are trying to demonstrate.

Festus wrote: »

A good idea. Do you think that is enough?

For the question you asked, yup.

Festus wrote: »

Either the mechanism by which life appeared is known or it is not known.
So, do you know or not know how life began?

We don't. But then the question isn't do we know how life began on Earth. The question is do think it I likely that life exists external to Earth.

Festus wrote: »

If the latter then it must leave the answer to another area of study.

Which other areas of study. I hope not one that doesn't have any standards and is thus not bound to admit when it doesn't know something, such as theology?

lmaopml · 24-03-2012 12:23am

Why is life out there such a drama?

It seems that sentient life such as ourselves would have been picked up since we started turning on TV sets and radios and sending out and searching for signals of same -

If life exists elsewhere; so what? Other than it would be really exciting?

Cossax · 24-03-2012 1:18am

Festus wrote: »

I'm not the one attempting to present an argument based on probablility.

A good idea. Do you think that is enough? Either the mechanism by which life appeared is known or it is not known.
So, do you know or not know how life began?

Either science can answer the question or it cannot. If it can it should do so. If it cannot it should admit that that is the demarcation and it is not even going to bother to find out.
If the latter then it must leave the answer to another area of study.

What kind of world would we live in if humans had followed this line throughout history?

MrPudding · 24-03-2012 4:57pm

Cossax wrote: »

What kind of world would we live in if humans had followed this line throughout history?

The dark ages.

MrP

Zombrex · 24-03-2012 5:25pm

lmaopml wrote: »

Why is life out there such a drama?

It seems that sentient life such as ourselves would have been picked up since we started turning on TV sets and radios and sending out and searching for signals of same -

If life exists elsewhere; so what? Other than it would be really exciting?

The more examples of life there are the less special humans appear. The less special humans appear the less justification for the assertion that we are special. Some people don't like that, preferring to think we have a special place in the universe.

Wh1stler · 24-03-2012 5:28pm

Festus wrote: »

Sorry, too busy firing up my particle accelerator to see what effects it can caused and cleaning down my black boards to write up some equations to explain in conceptual terms the anomalies that are observable when particles are banged in to each other at high speed to see if causing an action can cause a particle to effectively appear out of nothing and then see if I can write off the cause as non existent.

You're not only snookered but you are also in trouble with your English teacher too.

Glass houses etc.

tommy2bad · 24-03-2012 5:28pm

Zombrex wrote: »

The more examples of life there are the less special humans appear. The less special humans appear the less justification for the assertion that we are special. Some people don't like that, preferring to think we have a special place in the universe.

They might but that wouldnt be biblical.
The bible tells us were screw ups who needed God Himself to fix it. Special? special needs more like.

Zombrex · 24-03-2012 5:37pm

tommy2bad wrote: »

They might but that wouldnt be biblical.
The bible tells us were screw ups who needed God Himself to fix it. Special? special needs more like.

The Bible states that out of all life God produced humans as special among them, and placed humans as having dominion over all the other animals.

That gets a bit harder to explain when a Kartasian battleship arrives in orbit around us and threatens to glass the surface of the planet. Though I guess at that point people will have bigger things to worry about contradictions of Christian faith :P

Wh1stler · 24-03-2012 6:01pm

Abraham; he committed adultery with Hagar and is blessed among men.

King Saul; chosen by God. He fails to heed the word of God and ends up out of favour with God.

King David; chosen by the God who handed the commandments down to Moses. David commits adultery and then murder even though he was aware of God's feelings towards Saul and of the reason why. David obviously did not fear God. Or else, God made a king of a fool.

Solomon; practices idolatry by building sacrificial alters for his pagan wife even while he, the wise one, knew about Saul and David. Solomon had no fear of God. Or else, another fool was made king.

The list goes on; a succession of fools hand-picked by God to do His will that cosistently fail Him in spite of the experiences of their fathers and predecessors.

It looks like anyone who had power back then did not believe in the Hebrew God.

And God, in His omniscience, seems unable to back the right horse.

Now we have a Pope, hand-picked by God.

Oh oh! There could be trouble ahead.

Wh1stler · 24-03-2012 6:13pm

tommy2bad wrote: »

They might but that wouldnt be biblical.
The bible tells us were screw ups who needed God Himself to fix it. Special? special needs more like.

You believe that you are a screw-up because the Bible tells you so?

I don't believe that I'm a screw-up because the Bible doesn't know me. I know the Bible though and it reads like a hand-book on how to be a lousy parent.

Chastise, criticise, demean. This is not the way to produce well rounded, right-thinking, happy human-beings.

But of course, this is not what religion was designed for, is it? Do what the priests say or suffer eternal torture is more about control than maximising potential.

This really is too easy. Like shooting fish in a barrel.

Festus · 24-03-2012 10:12pm

Wh1stler wrote: »

You're not only snookered but you are also in trouble with your English teacher too.

Glass houses etc.

Fixed. However I don't see how I can be snookered if the only example is one from quantum mechanics given that the Universe is a wee bit more macro than that.

Quantum fluctuations are interesting but the particles are extemely short lived according to the mathematics and not visible.

The universe on the other hand...

Wh1stler · 25-03-2012 12:48am

Festus wrote: »

Fixed. However I don't see how I can be snookered if the only example is one from quantum mechanics given that the Universe is a wee bit more macro than that.

Quantum fluctuations are interesting but the particles are extemely short lived according to the mathematics and not visible.

The universe on the other hand...

I have seen a tiny laser spot create amazing images.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4LPXnbHeO0

The spot is tiny and at each position for almost no time at all.

Sin City · 25-03-2012 9:56am

Festus wrote: »

Wh1stler wrote: »

You're not only snookered but you are also in trouble with your English teacher too.

Glass houses etc.

Fixed. However I don't see how I can be snookered if the only example is one from quantum mechanics given that the Universe is a wee bit more macro than that.

Quantum fluctuations are interesting but the particles are extemely short lived according to the mathematics and not visible.

The universe on the other hand...

but it does happen,.science just isnt advanced enough yet to show that it is possible.

im still waiting for a rejection of my null hypothesis btw

wolfsbane · 25-03-2012 7:18pm

Zombrex wrote: »

The Bible states that out of all life God produced humans as special among them, and placed humans as having dominion over all the other animals.

That gets a bit harder to explain when a Kartasian battleship arrives in orbit around us and threatens to glass the surface of the planet. Though I guess at that point people will have bigger things to worry about contradictions of Christian faith :P

Well put.

Yes, authentic alien life-forms would be the last straw for any thinking Christian. Such an omission from God's revelation would call in question the whole thing.

*******************************************************************
Genesis 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

tommy2bad · 25-03-2012 7:37pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

Well put.

Yes, authentic alien life-forms would be the last straw for any thinking Christian. Such an omission from God's revelation would call in question the whole thing.

*******************************************************************
Genesis 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Why? the bible isn't a complete encyclopedia of all creation, if an alien life form wrecks the story why didn't a heliocentric world view wreck it, or evolution, or a hundred discoveries that contradict the biblical descriptions.?
It might further entrench fundi protestants but otherwise any discovery of alien life will be Grist to a missionary mill.

wolfsbane · 25-03-2012 7:38pm

Sin City wrote: »

Ok, the Christians among us here answer me this question. If ye believe that God put us on this planet and formed space and other planets light years away and different galaxies and different universe sand had space going on for an infinity and the only life he had ever created was on earth why have anything beyond earth? what would be the point or is it just some pyrotechnics to keep him amused?

Wouldnt an equally valid hypothesis is that God played no hand in the formantion of the universe through billions of years of evolution and possible a high degree of chance that life did evolve on this planet.

It is true that no one knows for certain the how life came to be , ie simple ,microbial life although there have been many many theories (most more substantial than a man with a big white beard was messing with his new chemistry set when he accidentdly dropped a vial) some which are radical like exogenesis or even that life actually originated a multitude of times. But these are all valid hypothesis and not just saying that God did it

The point would be to display His glory to us - the more we see/know about the immensity and laws of the universe, the more we are awed. Also, to display the same to the angelic creation.

The various creation accounts have various levels of scientific validity. The current consensus deep time/spontaneous generation of life, is contested by creationist scientists ( a small minority). Both sorts have scientific validity, but that is not to say scientifically either are correct. Scientific proof of origins will be very difficult to establish.

The Christian view of origins is based primarily on revelation, not on science. But on the same revelatory basis we know that correct science will eventually back up the revealed truth of origins. Creationist scientists do not just say, 'God did it'. They go on to advance scientific argument to support the assertion that God did it.

The concept of chance origin of life is disputed, mostly on the basis of how difficult it is to achieve the simplest life-form.

*******************************************************************
Romans 1: 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

wolfsbane · 25-03-2012 7:50pm

tommy2bad wrote: »

Why? the bible isn't a complete encyclopedia of all creation, if an alien life form wrecks the story why didn't a heliocentric world view wreck it, or evolution, or a hundred discoveries that contradict the biblical descriptions.?
It might further entrench fundi protestants but otherwise any discovery of alien life will be Grist to a missionary mill.

Because a heliocentric view is not contrary to the Scriptures, any more than a weatherman talking of sunrise is advancing a non-heliocentric view.

Evolution is contrary to the Scriptures, so I agree with your point that many Christians have been able to fit it in their faith. But they do so in desperation, and it does undermine the faith of many of those who belief it, especially those who think through the implications. That would be the case with proof of alien life too, I believe.

I know of no discoveries that contradict biblical descriptions. I'll be happy to respond to any list you provide.

The Bible is not an encyclopedia, but it is the revelation of God's relationship to man. As Zombrex pointed out, that relationship is very special. We are privileged above even the angels. To omit to tell us of another intelligent creation would be truly beyond belief.

********************************************************************
Genesis 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

tommy2bad · 25-03-2012 9:40pm

wolfsbane ;
Creationist scientists do not just say, 'God did it'. They go on to advance scientific argument to support the assertion that God did it.

No, they torture the truth until it admits they are right.
Come on, you cant really believe that God wouldn't leave out things that have no part of the story that the bible tells? If you believe, as I do btw, that it is the revelation of God's relationship to man, what has evolution or alien life to do with that narrative?

Evolution is contrary to the Scriptures, so I agree with your point that many Christians have been able to fit it in their faith. But they do so in desperation,

Thats just laughable, its the creationists who are desperate.

HamletOrHecuba · 25-03-2012 10:34pm

wolfsbane wrote: »

Well put.

Yes, authentic alien life-forms would be the last straw for any thinking Christian. Such an omission from God's revelation would call in question the whole thing.

Evolution also destroys the very ground of the Christian worldview aqd makes a mockery of not only Baptism but the Lord's Sacrifice on the Cross. Im not God but I find it hard to believe that any evolutionist will be saved outside of children who died before they were in a position to question properly.

Interesting point about authentic alien life. So called Alien vistitations fit into a records of demonic activity from the past.

lmaopml · 25-03-2012 11:49pm

Zombrex wrote: »

The more examples of life there are the less special humans appear. The less special humans appear the less justification for the assertion that we are special. Some people don't like that, preferring to think we have a special place in the universe.

Ah but that is the entire message of the Gospels that 'humans' are special - that's how we live, love and try to act in a virtuous way, because somehow we are 'special' - even denying our 'special'ness' makes us 'special'

What that has to do with whether God in his infinit wisdom decided to create Kardasians or Klingons etc. is a moot point. - What if they visited and spoke of Christ? What then? Although, it's obviously a long way off from happening....lol...

Of course it's entirely a different thing to have 'faith' or lack of 'faith' because of some notion that humans search the universe - or indeed argue that we should not search the universe, which we do, and it's not a bad thing, it's 'good' and a fearless thing to search and discover and learn more about truth, it's what we seem to be fashioned to do, and do so fearlessly.

Wh1stler · 26-03-2012 3:34am

wolfsbane wrote: »

Well put.

Yes, authentic alien life-forms would be the last straw for any thinking Christian. Such an omission from God's revelation would call in question the whole thing.

If an alien force came to earth in possession superior military technology then religionists would simply claim that it was the result of an interventionist Satan.

It might make some of us reconsider our free-will choices but it needn't call the Bible into question.

Wh1stler · 26-03-2012 3:52am

wolfsbane wrote: »

Romans 1: 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

If there is any truth in the Bible then it is in this verse. It is actually a very beautiful way to put it.

What a pity that they had to confuse the issue by building a bible around it.

Every word of Romans 1:20 could easily be an expression of the nature of vacuum fluctuations; the source of the Universe.

'The sap rises, the sap falls; such is the power of quantum dynamics.'

If God could be defined as the nature of the Universe, for better or worse, for good or bad; no will to be but unable to remain constant then I think atheism would become an amusing relic of the past.

tommy2bad · 26-03-2012 8:01am

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Evolution also destroys the very ground of the Christian worldview aqd makes a mockery of not only Baptism but the Lord's Sacrifice on the Cross. Im not God but I find it hard to believe that any evolutionist will be saved outside of children who died before they were in a position to question properly.

Interesting point about authentic alien life. So called Alien vistitations fit into a records of demonic activity from the past.

The dark heart of a creationist viewpoint right their.
They fit angelic visitations too.

Festus · 26-03-2012 11:17am

Wh1stler wrote: »

I have seen a tiny laser spot create amazing images.

So you have seen cause and effect. Most enlightening.

HamletOrHecuba · 26-03-2012 1:04pm

tommy2bad wrote: »

The dark heart of a creationist viewpoint right their.
They fit angelic visitations too.

Well demons are angels however if you mean they fit non-fallen angelic vistations well no they dont. They dont bring messages from God.

http://onbehalfofall.org/2011/02/09/an-orthodox-view-of-ufos/

Zombrex · 26-03-2012 1:06pm

lmaopml wrote: »

Ah but that is the entire message of the Gospels that 'humans' are special

Correct. And the more examples we find that we aren't the less believable the Gospels become.

Personally I think Nethanderals should have destroyed the human centric Christian view of the universe, but to each their own.

Monty Burnz · 26-03-2012 3:11pm

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Evolution also destroys the very ground of the Christian worldview aqd makes a mockery of not only Baptism but the Lord's Sacrifice on the Cross. Im not God but I find it hard to believe that any evolutionist will be saved outside of children who died before they were in a position to question properly.

You have yet to explain to me how science works to advance knowledge in every other field of research, but not it evolution. It showed that much of what the bible says is total nonsense - even you must accept that the sun does not orbit the earth?

So why does it work fine in many thousands of areas of research, but not in explaining the origins of life? Explain please.

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Interesting point about authentic alien life. So called Alien vistitations fit into a records of demonic activity from the past.

So you think there might be alien life with superior intelligence, but God forgot to mention it to his 'highest creation'? Presumably these aliens are 'beasts' over which we have dominion? I hope God at least told them.

Monty Burnz · 26-03-2012 3:12pm

Festus wrote: »

So you have seen cause and effect. Most enlightening.

And you have been given a clear example of things that can occur with no apparent cause, but you seem to be pretending it hasn't happened.

Wh1stler · 26-03-2012 3:57pm

Festus wrote: »

So you have seen cause and effect. Most enlightening.

No, just the effect.:P

The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

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