Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

lividduck · 09-02-2012 10:34pm

Flex wrote: »

We're just servicing interest on the money borrowed for the bank bailout, we're never actually going to "pay" that money. Of the €16B hole in our public finances do you know how much is because of the interest we're paying on the bank bailout?

No problem there either, I too fully accept that we have a structural deficit. Nor do I deny that we we have too narrow a tax base. I am all for reforming the whole taxation system. My arguement is with those who claim that any new taxes are to fund local services , they are not because local and community services dont exist in Ireland.
My biggest problem is with the sanctimonius few who troll on about how it is ordinary peoples fault that we are in this position, thats patently not true, ordinary people were given information on which they based their decisions by supposed experts like the Financial regulator, the Central Bank, and the Dept. of Finance...now they are suddenly at fault because they trusted those sources.
BTW as I have said before I have paid the tax

dxhound2005 · 09-02-2012 11:19pm

lividduck wrote: »

No problem there either, I too fully accept that we have a structural deficit. Nor do I deny that we we have too narrow a tax base. I am all for reforming the whole taxation system. My arguement is with those who claim that any new taxes are to fund local services , they are not because local and community services dont exist in Ireland.
My biggest problem is with the sanctimonius few who troll on about how it is ordinary peoples fault that we are in this position, thats patently not true, ordinary people were given information on which they based their decisions by supposed experts like the Financial regulator, the Central Bank, and the Dept. of Finance...now they are suddenly at fault because they trusted those sources.
BTW as I have said before I have paid the tax

We weren't the only country this time to suffer the downward correction in property prices. The out fall from the sub prime lending fiasco in the US and property prices in Spain spring to mind.

Out of 1.6 million homeowners I don't know what number now are unemployed or had significant reductions to their wages other than run of the mill PS workers. The fact that a house is only valued at half what it was doesn't make the owner worse off in real terms if they have no mortgage or have the same income to service a mortage. And with 200,000 tracker mortgages out there some are on lower repayment compared to a while back.

Potatoeman · 09-02-2012 11:34pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

We weren't the only country this time to suffer the downward correction in property prices. The out fall from the sub prime lending fiasco in the US and property prices in Spain spring to mind.

Out of 1.6 million homeowners I don't know what number now are unemployed or had significant reductions to their wages other than run of the mill PS workers. The fact that a house is only valued at half what it was doesn't make the owner worse off in real terms if they have no mortgage or have the same income to service a mortage. And with 200,000 tracker mortgages out there some are on lower repayment compared to a while back.

True, people want to pass the blame but in truth it should be spread. No party would have been elected if they ran a campaign on reducing house prices and controlling debt levels.

squod · 09-02-2012 11:41pm

Flex wrote: »

We're just servicing interest on the money borrowed for the bank bailout, we're never actually going to "pay" that money. Of the €16B hole in our public finances do you know how much is because of the interest we're paying on the bank bailout?

Not completely true. We will have to pay back that counterfeit €51bn. We're paying €3bn this year AFAIK. It's not borrowed money like.

RandomName2 · 09-02-2012 11:59pm

Potatoeman wrote: »

Property is an asset. If you can afford a house you can afford to pay a property tax. Muck like if you have a job you can afford to pay PRSI and PAYE. If you can't afford it you are already in financial difficulty and are going to lose it anyway.

IS there no hope for Ireland?

Property is an asset insofar that it can either be sold for its current market value or rented out.

In case you hadn't noticed we are in a property market slump. Most properties are not worth the amounts borrowed to buy them (THAT'S WHY WE HAD A BANK BAILOUT!!!). Ahem.

Properties that can be rented out are already taxed. Properties that are commercial are hit by rates, and of course any profits that they make are hit by income tax, not to mention other recurring costs (commercial properties already pay water tax for instance). Families who own second homes already have those taxed as second properties, and of course they also have to pay income tax on any income that they may make.

But - notwithstanding that these properties are not really assets in the way that you make out - many are going to go on the market in the next while as vendors become unwilling to sit out the recession and want just to avoid new taxes.

*DING DING DING* Property market slump? More houses on the market? Less buyers? FFS IS THIS ENTIRE COUNTRY RETARDED?

Edit: Are the politicians of this country universally retarded?

dxhound2005 · 10-02-2012 12:09am

RandomName2 wrote: »

IS there no hope for Ireland?

Property is an asset insofar that it can either be sold for its current market value or rented out.

In case you hadn't noticed we are in a property market slump. Most properties are not worth the amounts borrowed to buy them (THAT'S WHY WE HAD A BANK BAILOUT!!!). Ahem.

Properties that can be rented out are already taxed. Properties that are commercial are hit by rates, and of course any profits that they make are hit by income tax, not to mention other recurring costs (commercial properties already pay water tax for instance). Families who own second homes already have those taxed as second properties, and of course they also have to pay income tax on any income that they may make.

But - notwithstanding that these properties are not really assets in the way that you make out - many are going to go on the market in the next while as vendors become unwilling to sit out the recession and want just to avoid new taxes.

*DING DING DING* Property market slump? More houses on the market? Less buyers? FFS IS THIS ENTIRE COUNTRY RETARDED?

Edit: Are the politicians of this country universally retarded?

All of that happened already. The only thing that strikes me is how little protest there has been by the owners of second homes, 340,000 of whom have ponied up €600 to date with very little public comment that I'm aware of. €100extra from people this year is not going to have some sort of calamitous effect on the housing market. Economic cycles go up as well as down and in a few years everything could be great again with house prices tripling every 10 years if you think that is a good thing.

tayto lover · 10-02-2012 12:13am

Austerity is obviously for the ordinary working man.
Two F.G. Junior Ministers were each awarded 17 thousand euros of a rise today.
Now there is austerity for you from our F.G. masters.

Potatoeman · 10-02-2012 12:23am

RandomName2 wrote: »

*DING DING DING* Property market slump? More houses on the market? Less buyers? FFS IS THIS ENTIRE COUNTRY RETARDED?

Edit: Are the politicians of this country universally retarded?

We should race to the bottom so they can recover to reasonable levels. People will not want to buy houses when they are falling in value. High house prices mean less money for homeowners to spend.

dxhound2005 wrote: »

All of that happened already. The only thing that strikes me is how little protest there has been by the owners of second homes, 340,000 of whom have ponied up €600 to date with very little public comment that I'm aware of. €100extra from people this year is not going to have some sort of calamitous effect on the housing market. Economic cycles go up as well as down and in a few years everything could be great again with house prices tripling every 10 years if you think that is a good thing.

Why do people need second homes. This is a problem created by the boom loads of people buying investment properties and creating a false demand.

squod · 10-02-2012 12:23am

RandomName2 wrote: »

In case you hadn't noticed we are in a property market slump. Most properties are not worth the amounts borrowed to buy them (THAT'S WHY WE HAD A BANK BAILOUT!!!). Ahem.

It's a bit more complicated than that like.

squod · 10-02-2012 12:25am

Potatoeman wrote: »

Why do people need second homes.

All the jobs are in Dublin. It's that simple.

dxhound2005 · 10-02-2012 12:26am

tayto lover wrote: »

Austerity is obviously for the ordinary working man.
Two F.G. Junior Ministers were each awarded 17 thousand euros of a rise today.
Now there is austerity for you from our F.G. masters.

What we need to attract the right people to stand for election is higher salaries. The likes of the big bosses at Paddy Powers who can make ordinary working men part with enormous amounts of money on a futile exercise are the ones we need to run the country. But they cream off 5 or 7 times as much as the Taoiseach so no good offering them 200K, they would laugh at us.

Bruthal · 10-02-2012 12:33am

Potatoeman wrote: »

Property is an asset. If you can afford a house you can afford to pay a property tax. Muck like if you have a job you can afford to pay PRSI and PAYE. If you can't afford it you are already in financial difficulty and are going to lose it anyway.

Its hard to believe a person with any sort of common sense would believe that rubbish.

Dubit10 · 10-02-2012 12:34am

Not a chance in hell i'll be paying this. It's not the money tbh i have it, i won't pay the charge because i believe the money is going to pay off the bank debts that have been dumped on the Irish taxpayer. I just don't trust this government and i'd say the majority of the country will feel the same way.

tayto lover · 10-02-2012 12:38am

dxhound2005 wrote: »

What we need to attract the right people to stand for election is higher salaries. The likes of the big bosses at Paddy Powers who can make ordinary working men part with enormous amounts of money on a futile exercise are the ones we need to run the country. But they cream off 5 or 7 times as much as the Taoiseach so no good offering them 200K, they would laugh at us.

But they are generating their own money while the T.D.'s are screwing us. Otherwise I agree with you.

RandomName2 · 10-02-2012 12:41am

squod wrote: »

It's a bit more complicated than that like.

Indeed it is: as the above poster earlier pointed out, people automatically have lots of capital if they happen to own property(!) :pac:

With all due respect is a full synopsis of the economic downturn a necessity? Property value is the cornerstone for collateral in the secured loan market. Its market value reduction (for a number of reasons) to a state below which a parity with the outstanding debts can no longer be achieved has caused a very serious amount of bankruptcy in this state in the last number of years. Oh, and that debt doesn't just magically disappear, you know.

Now people can start saying that people were at fault for buying property when prices were artificially inflated. Well, I suppose that is true, to a point. But it is entirely irrelevant to any discussion about how we are going to get out of this mess. Making people pay what they demonstrably cannot afford makes no sense.

dxhound2005 · 10-02-2012 12:49am

Dubit10 wrote: »

Not a chance in hell i'll be paying this. It's not the money tbh i have it, i won't pay the charge because i believe the money is going to pay off the bank debts that have been dumped on the Irish taxpayer. I just don't trust this government and i'd say the majority of the country will feel the same way.

I thought you were new to the debate so I had a look for previous posts. Tell me to mind my own business but where were you for the last two years until 10minutes ago? And before that there was another 2 year absence (unless I'm seeing this all wrong).

Anyway if you own a house just check out the law, by all means don't pay but be aware of penalties fines and interest charges.

tayto lover · 10-02-2012 12:54am

I wonder what the Property Tax will be on this wee house ?
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/for-hire-ministers-taxrelief-mansion-2630237.html

dxhound2005 · 10-02-2012 1:00am

tayto lover wrote: »

I wonder what the Property Tax will be on this wee house ?
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/for-hire-ministers-taxrelief-mansion-2630237.html

It's his house and he got it with his own money. He shouldn't have to give any of his own money to any ****er:)

Pete M. · 10-02-2012 1:39am

Meeting in Sligo tonight was well attended, nearly 200 hundred people I'd say.

Clare Daly spoke, amoungst others, and plenty from the floor too.

People were angry and ready to engage in a proper campaign against the household charge and lots of other issues came up as well. You can imagine...

Lots of ideas like the one about returning all the leaflets that are coming out, bumper stickers (lovin it!), meetings in other towns, nationwide event on 25th, all good.

It all depends on whether or not the campaign can sustain itself for long enough and seeing the enthusiasm earlier, it is easy to be hopeful.

This will be a real test of democracy. We elected Fine Gabour not so long ago and as far as many ordinary people are concerned, they have not delivered.

They cannot keep breaking promises and waffling and expect to remain legitimate, while they sell the rest of us down the swanny.

gk5000 · 10-02-2012 1:40am

dxhound2005 wrote: »

What we need to attract the right people to stand for election is higher salaries. The likes of the big bosses at Paddy Powers who can make ordinary working men part with enormous amounts of money on a futile exercise are the ones we need to run the country. But they cream off 5 or 7 times as much as the Taoiseach so no good offering them 200K, they would laugh at us.

NO. This sort of thinking is why were in this mess.

The people we need are not in it for the money. No amount of money will attract good canditates to serve the public, as public servants or as politicians.

Good candidates will serve irrespective, while the money just attracts...people in it for the money.

Like him or loathe him, Mick O Leary doesn't need the money. No amount of money will attract someone like him, so paying some tosser in excess of 100/200k is pointless; cos if he does do it, or the Paddy Powers guys do it then it will be to prove a point or to make a difference, and not for the money.

Mr CJ · 10-02-2012 1:45am

Potatoeman wrote: »

That's a subjective view of poverty. People that are actually poor don't own property. People that bought property that they can't afford now are bad financial planners.

Does your name have any relationship to your brain?? I fully respect peoples comments from both sides but this wins the award for the most ridiculous comment on boards.ie

Bruthal · 10-02-2012 1:57am

Mr CJ wrote: »

Does your name have any relationship to your brain?? I fully respect peoples comments from both sides but this wins the award for the most ridiculous comment on boards.ie what an A$^"$£%

I think your right, another example. A strange view...

Potatoeman wrote: »

Property is an asset. If you can afford a house you can afford to pay a property tax. Muck like if you have a job you can afford to pay PRSI and PAYE. If you can't afford it you are already in financial difficulty and are going to lose it anyway.

Mr CJ · 10-02-2012 1:58am

Here is a good idea if it could be organised, after the leaflet drop I would gladly go around in my area and collect them back of people and return to sender with something like no junk mail! who would be up for this? this should be raised at the meeting to see what the response is like

Bruthal · 10-02-2012 2:00am

Mr CJ wrote: »

Here is a good idea if it could be organised, after the leaflet drop I would gladly go around in my area and collect them back of people and return to sender with something like no junk mail! who would be up for this? this should be raised at the meeting to see what the response is like

Just sending them back in bundles would seem a good idea in itself.

Pete M. · 10-02-2012 2:01am

Mr CJ wrote: »

Here is a good idea if it could be organised, after the leaflet drop I would gladly go around in my area and collect them back of people and return to sender with something like no junk mail! who would be up for this? this should be raised at the meeting to see what the response is like

Go for it CJ!

There's absolutely nothing stopping you doing just that.

Just make sure to count them and that every body knows exactly what you're doing.

it was raised at the meeting earlier and went down well.

Mr CJ · 10-02-2012 2:01am

robbie7730 wrote: »

Just sending them back in bundles would seem a good idea in itself.

lets see... anyone good pals with postmen?? ha

D_murph · 10-02-2012 2:30am

Just make sure you write something on them ir draw a big "X" on them before you post them back so they cant use them again. Some rude comments would not go to waste either

.

Am Chile · 10-02-2012 3:45am

Mr CJ wrote: »

Here is a good idea if it could be organised, after the leaflet drop I would gladly go around in my area and collect them back of people and return to sender with something like no junk mail! who would be up for this? this should be raised at the meeting to see what the response is like

Instead of returning to sender, directly return them to sender, knock on your local fine gael councilers house door return the leaflets and say we don,t want your junk mail its not welcome.

dxhound2005 · 10-02-2012 9:16am

Pete M. wrote: »

Meeting in Sligo tonight was well attended, nearly 200 hundred people I'd say.

Clare Daly spoke, amoungst others, and plenty from the floor too.

People were angry and ready to engage in a proper campaign against the household charge and lots of other issues came up as well. You can imagine...

Lots of ideas like the one about returning all the leaflets that are coming out, bumper stickers (lovin it!), meetings in other towns, nationwide event on 25th, all good.

It all depends on whether or not the campaign can sustain itself for long enough and seeing the enthusiasm earlier, it is easy to be hopeful.

This will be a real test of democracy. We elected Fine Gabour not so long ago and as far as many ordinary people are concerned, they have not delivered.

They cannot keep breaking promises and waffling and expect to remain legitimate, while they sell the rest of us down the swanny.

Poor oul Clare Daly must be run off her feet going up and down to Galway and Sligo. Are there no Socialists there to lead the campaign? I hope she is not neglecting her constituents in Dublin.

Dubit10 · 10-02-2012 9:25am

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I thought you were new to the debate so I had a look for previous posts. Tell me to mind my own business but where were you for the last two years until 10minutes ago? And before that there was another 2 year absence (unless I'm seeing this all wrong).

Anyway if you own a house just check out the law, by all means don't pay but be aware of penalties fines and interest charges.

It's none of your business tbh.

Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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