Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

Potatoeman

RandomName2 wrote: »

Property = wealth.

Glad to know that Anglo-Irish bank is still worth billions.

Oh hold on a minute...

(The genius thinking that generated the property bubble is thus deemed to be the genius means to get us out of recession!)

And by genius I mean retarded, of course.

Property is an asset. If you can afford a house you can afford to pay a property tax. Muck like if you have a job you can afford to pay PRSI and PAYE. If you can't afford it you are already in financial difficulty and are going to lose it anyway.

Ghost Buster

Potatoeman wrote: »

Property is an asset. If you can afford a house you can afford to pay a property tax. Muck like if you have a job you can afford to pay PRSI and PAYE. If you can't afford it you are already in financial difficulty and are going to lose it anyway.

My property is costing me enough and belongs to the bank for the next ten years and anyway I have already paid for services I dont get!;)

mikom

Potatoeman wrote: »

Property is an asset.

How does a four year old eat an asset?

Ghost Buster

Potatoeman wrote: »

Property is an asset. If you can afford a house you can afford to pay a property tax. Muck like if you have a job you can afford to pay PRSI and PAYE. If you can't afford it you are already in financial difficulty and are going to lose it anyway.

Or the next tax, or the next. Then the one after that. Death by 1000 cuts any one?

tayto lover

Potatoeman wrote: »

That's a subjective view of poverty. People that are actually poor don't own property. People that bought property that they can't afford now are bad financial planners.

Wait until you have 30 years of paying a mortgage and then come back and tell me (hope i'm still around). Just when I am finished paying they want to charge me again. No I won't be paying. It's mine all mine.

mikom

tayto lover wrote: »

Just when I am finished paying they want to charge me again. No I won't be paying.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU

lividduck

Potatoeman wrote: »

That's a subjective view of poverty. People that are actually poor don't own property. People that bought property that they can't afford now are bad financial planners.

That should win an award for the dumbest post on the thread!
People who bought homes are not bad financial planners they bought homes because our politicans and our then Financial Regulator assured them it was the right thing to do and that both the economy and the banks were sound, to quote my earlier post.
Those who blame ordinary people who put their trust in the financial Regulator and the Government of being "Bad financial planners" is not only insulting it a total misrepresentation of what happened in this economy over the last two decades. Shame on you.....and this is from someone who has registered and has paid and is being convinced more and more that i was mistaken in doing so.

dxhound2005

lividduck wrote: »

Not everybody is in financial trouble because they were rash some people believed the Goverment who said "our economic fundementals were strong" and the Financial Regulator who said "Irish banks have the best capitization in Europe" etc.., people made decisions based on the information provided by the state and its agencys so stop blaming them as though they were rabid spendcrazy maniacs.

That should win an award for the dumbest post on the thread!
People who bought homes are not bad financial planners they bought homes because our politicans and our then Financial Regulator assured them it was the right thing to do and that both the economy and the banks were sound, to quote my earlier post.
Those who blame ordinary people who put their trust in the financial Regulator and the Government of being "Bad financial planners" is not only insulting it a total misrepresentation of what happened in this economy over the last two decades. Shame on you.....and this is from someone who has registered and has paid and is being convinced more and more that i was mistaken in doing so.

There is a waiver in place for owners of residential property entitled to mortgage interest supplement.

Phill Ewinn

Intimidation and bullying people into paying a stupid tax. The money will be wasted. The chances are that raising these taxes will damage the economy.

Someone should speak up. Think we need a figure head and not just opposition parties waffling on while enjoying a champange lifestyle.

If the goverment do a leaflet drop I'll try organise a counter leaflet if I can find like minded local folk to fund it and deliver them.

Stereomaniac

The SWP in Waterford have been doing a pretty good job of motivating people and fighting this. There was a protest today and there's another one planned for Monday. If you are organising leaflets let me know, I will help you in any way that I can. This tax is unacceptable. However, it is impressive to see just how many people are opposing it already.

donalg1

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Intimidation and bullying people into paying a stupid tax. The money will be wasted. The chances are that raising these taxes will damage the economy.

Someone should speak up. Think we need a figure head and not just opposition parties waffling on while enjoying a champange lifestyle.

If the goverment do a leaflet drop I'll try organise a counter leaflet if I can find like minded local folk to fund it and deliver them.

You will organise a leaflet drop if other people pay for it and then deliver them too!!

If people have a problem with increased taxes they should be including the VAT rise in their protests and should also be refusing to pay that surely and stop being so selective about which taxes they want to pay

dxhound2005

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Intimidation and bullying people into paying a stupid tax. The money will be wasted. The chances are that raising these taxes will damage the economy.

Someone should speak up. Think we need a figure head and not just opposition parties waffling on while enjoying a champange lifestyle.

If the goverment do a leaflet drop I'll try organise a counter leaflet if I can find like minded local folk to fund it and deliver them.

There's no shortage of figureheads. Joe Higgins, Clare Daly, Joan Collins, Luke Flanagan et al. Who did you have in mind?

lividduck

dxhound2005 wrote: »

There's no shortage of figureheads. Joe Higgins, Clare Daly, Joan Collins, Luke Flanagan et al. Who did you have in mind?

All of whom are from the extreme left (exept Ming who is just a nutjob) a very sustantial portion of those who have issues with the property tax are unlikely to follow a figurehead who believes that property is theft.

donalg1

Stereomaniac wrote: »

The SWP in Waterford have been doing a pretty good job of motivating people and fighting this. There was a protest today and there's another one planned for Monday. If you are organising leaflets let me know, I will help you in any way that I can. This tax is unacceptable. However, it is impressive to see just how many people are opposing it already.

I can't see how a protest is going to change anything even if 2 million people march on the capital in protest it won't make any difference as Ireland has no control over its finances any more. EU / IMF are the ones with the power and they are not going to give a flying fcuk about a protest over here, they may see a march in Dublin on the news at their house for 30seconds but will just continue eating their dinner and will not pay a blind bit of notice to any protests here.

The time for protest was when the two Brian's were handing a blank cheque to the banks and signing away our sovereignty.

Phill Ewinn

donalg1 wrote: »

You will organise a leaflet drop if other people pay for it and then deliver them too!!

If people have a problem with increased taxes they should be including the VAT rise in their protests and should also be refusing to pay that surely and stop being so selective about which taxes they want to pay

VAT tax raises happen. Household charges have never happen (or never worked) here. It's as Enda said unfair, unjust or whatever.

So, I'd rather stick a few bob into a leaflet drop and do it with some other people than see people wasting €100. This government is worse than the last shower. If it pisses them off even one little bit, it'll be worth it.

donalg1

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

donalg1 wrote: »

You will organise a leaflet drop if other people pay for it and then deliver them too!!

If people have a problem with increased taxes they should be including the VAT rise in their protests and should also be refusing to pay that surely and stop being so selective about which taxes they want to pay

VAT tax raises happen. Household charges have never happen (or never worked) here. It's as Enda said unfair, unjust or whatever.

So, I'd rather stick a few bob into a leaflet drop and do it with some other people than see people wasting €100. This government is worse than the last shower. If it pisses them off even one little bit, it'll be worth it.

That's a bit harsh now saying they are worse than the last lot I don't think that's possible ff were the ones that stabbed us in the back without us even knowing at least FG will do it to our faces and seem willing to make the choices that will lose them votes unlike ff.

dxhound2005

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

VAT tax raises happen. Household charges have never happen (or never worked) here. It's as Enda said unfair, unjust or whatever.

So, I'd rather stick a few bob into a leaflet drop and do it with some other people than see people wasting €100. This government is worse than the last shower. If it pisses them off even one little bit, it'll be worth it.

When we were administered from GB there was a system of domestic rates going back hundreds of years. This carried on in the North and here after 1922 and still exists in the North in a modified form. It was abolished here in 1977 which in retrospect I would argue was a flawed decision as it put the onus for all expenditure on income tax. I don't think there is another example of a country abolishing property taxes except perhaps under the Soviet model and it is certainly a feature of taxation today in nearly every developed democracy. Governments will come and go but I doubt any of them in future will be easily persuaded to abolish this law once it is established.

lividduck

dxhound2005 wrote: »

When we were administered from GB there was a system of domestic rates going back hundreds of years. This carried on in the North and here after 1922 and still exists in the North in a modified form. It was abolished here in 1977 which in retrospect I would argue was a flawed decision as it put the onus for all expenditure on income tax. I don't think there is another example of a country abolishing property taxes except perhaps under the Soviet model and it is certainly a feature of taxation today in nearly every developed democracy. Governments will come and go but I doubt any of them in future will be easily persuaded to abolish this law once it is established.

I think part of the issue here is that this property tax was concieved purely as a new revenue raising exercise "Eh what else can we tax, oh yeah we'll taxes peoples homes"!
I have lived in other countries where they have property taxes but in those countries you get something for paying them;
You bins get collected, we will still have to pay private companies.
You get healthcare, we still have to pay€100 if we turn up at A&E, private health insurance etc
You get local leisure centres and creches, we get f all.
People would resent a property tax far less if they thought they were going to get something for it.

dxhound2005

lividduck wrote: »

I think part of the issue here is that this property tax was concieved purely as a new revenue raising exercise "Eh what else can we tax, oh yeah we'll taxes peoples homes"!
I have lived in other countries where they have property taxes but in those countries you get something for paying them;
You bins get collected, we will still have to pay private companies.
You get healthcare, we still have to pay€100 if we turn up at A&E, private health insurance etc
You get local leisure centres and creches, we get f all.
People would resent a property tax far less if they thought they were going to get something for it.

Perversely during the years when Ireland was obstensibly one of the richest countries in the world we didn't need to consider this taxation model. It's absence was compensated for over a good few years by returns from stamp duty many times the amount which is projected for the property tax. I doubt if people in Germany or Sweden or wherever are that happy handing over their property/local taxes but would England turn down £26 billion income for instance and say we don't need a council tax?

lividduck

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Perversely during the years when Ireland was obstensibly one of the richest countries in the world we didn't need to consider this taxation model. It's absence was compensated for over a good few years by returns from stamp duty many times the amount which is projected for the property tax. I doubt if people in Germany or Sweden or wherever are that happy handing over their property/local taxes but would England turn down £26 billion income for instance and say we don't need a council tax?

Your failure/refusal to address the level of service provision in those countries with established property taxes and Ireland is noted.

Potatoeman

lividduck wrote: »

That should win an award for the dumbest post on the thread!
People who bought homes are not bad financial planners they bought homes because our politicans and our then Financial Regulator assured them it was the right thing to do and that both the economy and the banks were sound, to quote my earlier post.
Those who blame ordinary people who put their trust in the financial Regulator and the Government of being "Bad financial planners" is not only insulting it a total misrepresentation of what happened in this economy over the last two decades. Shame on you.....and this is from someone who has registered and has paid and is being convinced more and more that i was mistaken in doing so.

No one forced them. If people thought about what they were getting into and not paid stupid amounts of money they would not be in a bad situation. The government deserves blame for not controlling it but people need to be treated like adults and be responsible for their own decisions.

mikom

donalg1 wrote: »

Ireland has no control over its finances any more. EU / IMF are the ones with the power

Utter shite.
How we raise money is our own business.
The excuse that "the EU / IMF made me do it" is like saying "the dog ate my homework".

lividduck wrote: »

All of whom are from the extreme left (exept Ming who is just a nutjob)

Spoken like a person who has never met Luke.
He is far from a nutjob and I'd say he'd buy and sell a lot of the posters on this thread.

gk5000

donalg1 wrote: »

I can't see how a protest is going to change anything even if 2 million people march on the capital in protest it won't make any difference as Ireland has no control over its finances any more. EU / IMF are the ones with the power and they are not going to give a flying fcuk about a protest over here, they may see a march in Dublin on the news at their house for 30seconds but will just continue eating their dinner and will not pay a blind bit of notice to any protests here.

The time for protest was when the two Brian's were handing a blank cheque to the banks and signing away our sovereignty.

Sure it's easier than that in this case.
Just don't register/pay.

My guess is that its unworkable/unenforcable if more than say 25% of eligible people don't pay.

donalg1

mikom wrote: »

donalg1 wrote: »

Ireland has no control over its finances any more. EU / IMF are the ones with the power

Utter shite.
How we raise money is our own business.
The excuse that "the EU / IMF made me do it" is like saying "the dog ate my homework".

Well they told the govt to introduce it and they did so they must have some level of control over us don't you think?

dxhound2005

lividduck wrote: »

Your failure/refusal to address the level of service provision in those countries with established property taxes and Ireland is noted.

Bit of a broad topic. Pick a country and we will see what google says. I know that the average in England is £1200 so if you took off what I pay for refuse collection it would still be a fair whack. And we are not paying for water separately yet. I don't think including health services is part of the comparison. Ironically if domectic rates had continued we would probably all still have our local authority binmen going round every week.

lividduck

Potatoeman wrote: »

No one forced them. If people thought about what they were getting into and not paid stupid amounts of money they would not be in a bad situation. The government deserves blame for not controlling it but people need to be treated like adults and be responsible for their own decisions.

Pity you dont apply that logic to bankers and bondholders!

Potatoeman

lividduck wrote: »

Pity you dont apply that logic to bankers and bondholders!

I do.

lividduck

Potatoeman wrote: »

I do.

the only reason so many homeowners are in financial trouble is because they are being taxed to the bone to pay bondholders and recapitize banks, so if you hold the bondholders responsible you cant blame the homeowners.....well actually you can...if you are a troll (which Im sure you're not, you're just confused bless your little cotton socks!)

Flex

lividduck wrote: »

the only reason so many homeowners are in financial trouble is because they are being taxed to the bone to pay bondholders and recapitize banks, so if you hold the bondholders responsible you cant blame the homeowners.....well actually you can...if you are a troll (which Im sure you're not, you're just confused bless your little cotton socks!)

We're just servicing interest on the money borrowed for the bank bailout, we're never actually going to "pay" that money. Of the €16B hole in our public finances do you know how much is because of the interest we're paying on the bank bailout?

hawkelady

donalg1 wrote: »

That's a bit harsh now saying they are worse than the last lot I don't think that's possible ff were the ones that stabbed us in the back without us even knowing at least FG will do it to our faces and seem willing to make the choices that will lose them votes unlike ff.

They are as bad if not worse . Can you recall Edna kenny standing up in the dail during the tiger days saying stop this nonsense it's all a bubble!! No cause he was oblivious to it like the rest of them. It's averaging at 2 gaffs a week now by fg/ lab . Shower of cnuts the lot of 'em. I hope to god only 5% pay the household charge. We'll see what they say then.