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Irish rebel music

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Comments

  • #302
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    BeefyS wrote: »
    you dont like complicated things do you.
    a message of hate can be constructed many ways. for example, implying an us against them mentality where we are standing up for whats true and right and those against us are bad and wrong. it can be done by implying a victory then over those negative forces "look how much better then we are", people then come away with a message of importance due to this victory... and we all know that we want to feel important now dont we

    ..............

    So we shouldn't sing about being or aspiring to be an independent nation because somebody might read that as a "message of hate"?


  • #303
    BeefyS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 65 ✭✭BeefyS


    Nodin wrote: »
    So we shouldn't sing about being or aspiring to be an independent nation because somebody might read that as a "message of hate"?

    yup. you really dont


  • #304
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    Nodin wrote: »
    Here's "A nation once again". You can quote the part thats a "message of hate" and we can discuss it.

    http://celtic-lyrics.com/lyrics/?id=9

    Some (W.B Yeats, Lady Gregory and Co.) would say most of Davis's work is facile propagandist verse popularised by the Young Irelanders. I would be inclined to agree with them.

    The only rebel song of note by the early forefathers is James Clarence Mangan's Dark Rosaleen.


  • #305
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    BeefyS wrote: »
    yup. you really dont


    No answer...?


  • #306
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,286 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    BeefyS wrote: »
    you dont like complicated things do you.
    a message of hate can be constructed many ways. for example, implying an us against them mentality where we are standing up for whats true and right and those against us are bad and wrong.

    So your posts are messages of hate then?


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  • #307
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    Nodin wrote: »
    So we shouldn't sing about being or aspiring to be an independent nation because somebody might read that as a "message of hate"?

    Irish music should aim to promote cultural nationalism if it wants to promote any sort of nationalism.


  • #308
    BeefyS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 65 ✭✭BeefyS


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    So your posts are messages of hate then?

    its contextual innit. i thought that would be obvious
    nodin wrote:
    No answer...?

    you dont get what i mean or dont want to.
    "it can be done by implying a victory then over those negative forces "look how much better then we are", people then come away with a message of importance due to this victory..."
    it helps to galvanise hatred against a "common" enemy from those times. celebrating our victory over them, which can be used as a message of hatred. i really fail to see how you cant or wont get this.. well i can see how you wont want to get it, heck isnt that what we are kinda talking about, importance and all that jazz :)


  • #309
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    Irish music should aim to promote cultural nationalism if it wants to promote any sort of nationalism.

    Personally I don't see why it should nessecarily promote anything, as a rule. This is about a certain sub-genre that concerns itself with political matters past (and some recent), many of the songs being written a very long time ago.


  • #310
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    BeefyS wrote: »
    you dont get what i mean or dont want to.
    "it can be done by implying a victory then over those negative forces "look how much better then we are", people then come away with a message of importance due to this victory..."
    it helps to galvanise hatred against a "common" enemy from those times. celebrating our victory over them, which can be used as a message of hatred. i really fail to see how you cant or wont get this.. well i can see how you wont want to get it, heck isnt that what we are kinda talking about, importance and all that jazz :)

    So essentially, you've read into it what you want to, and have thus chosen to stereotype the genre and all associated with it. Lovely.


  • #311
    BeefyS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 65 ✭✭BeefyS


    Nodin wrote: »
    So essentially, you've read into it what you want to, and have thus chosen to stereotype the genre and all associated with it. Lovely.

    and now who cant answer?
    point proven


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  • #312
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    BeefyS wrote: »
    and now who cant answer?
    point proven

    Answer what? Your pseudo-intellectual musings about a genre you seem to know little or nothing about? If there was a question in there, I think I might need a bigger dung-shovel to find it.


  • #313
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,286 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    BeefyS wrote: »
    its contextual innit. i thought that would be obvious

    Oh dearie me...


  • #314
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    Nodin wrote: »
    Personally I don't see why it should nessecarily promote anything, as a rule. This is about a certain sub-genre that concerns itself with political matters past (and some recent), many of the songs being written a very long time ago.

    Obviously I don't mean all music should promote cultural nationalism but by my stating of Irish music by definition implies it has a national characteristic in it. Some bands like the Coronas being a pop band (i.e universal appeal) would not be considered in the same way as the Dubliners for instance. I know very well of the sub genre and some of the criticism this genre gets is valid as it is nothing more than propagandist bull****.
    If somebody is going to class a type of music as excellent it has to be achieving more than some political broadcast, it has to be nearing some sort of artistic form instead of infantile ravings.


  • #315
    BeefyS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 65 ✭✭BeefyS


    Nodin wrote: »
    Answer what? Your pseudo-intellectual musings about a genre you seem to know little or nothing about? If there was a question in there, I think I might need a bigger dung-shovel to find it.

    i didnt ask i question. i made a point, a point you cant find an answer to.
    thing is, im not pretending its pseudo-intellectual whatever, its just a very basic answer is to why people in 2011 are still pro-IRA / anti-britain, support the EDL, support the westboro baptist church etc. people want to be more important then they actually are so they latch onto a cause like this. the rebel songs are just an extension of this mentality and are often used as messages of hate (which i have explained very clearly to you). im sorry if it trivialises what you think is important or whatever but thats not my problem if you get angry about it


  • #316
    BeefyS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 65 ✭✭BeefyS


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    Oh dearie me...

    ?
    oh dearie me what? was i too clear for you or something?
    its contextual in that the context of what the song is and stands for can be used as a message of hate. you have taken one bit of what i said that was meant to be taken in the context of the message of certain songs and tried to turn it back around against the points i made.

    saying "oh dearie me" in this patrionising pedantic tone wont help deflect what ive written or what you read


  • #317
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,286 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Oh dearie me for you using a generic argument to state that Irish rebel songs spread messages of hate and it is obvious that any discord / discussion / song / poetry etc can be classed as 'messages of hate' using your generic argument.

    And dearie me for your patronising tone, lack of capital letters and the use of 'innit'.

    So dearie me indeed.


  • #318
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    BeefyS wrote: »
    i didnt ask i question. i made a point, a point you cant find an answer to.
    thing is, im not pretending its pseudo-intellectual whatever, its just a very basic answer is to why people in 2011 are still pro-IRA / anti-britain, support the EDL, support the westboro baptist church etc. people want to be more important then they actually are so they latch onto a cause like this. the rebel songs are just an extension of this mentality and are often used as messages of hate (which i have explained very clearly to you). im sorry if it trivialises what you think is important or whatever but thats not my problem if you get angry about it


    ...and I just brought up a song that was written before the IRA was founded and you couldn't address that. Hence "pseudo intellectual".

    Whats "anti-britain" when its at home.


  • #319
    Johnny Foreigner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 923 ✭✭✭Johnny Foreigner


    This thread seems to have drifted off topic.
    I am going to bring it back on topic.
    Here is a song my Aunt had booming out of her Sanyo HiFi when I was a child:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PE8rsDLHb98


  • #320
    Johnny Foreigner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 923 ✭✭✭Johnny Foreigner


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucigkLLqnG4


  • #321
    Irish Guitarist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,736 ✭✭✭Irish Guitarist


    Just because the messages in the songs might not be relevant anymore doesn't mean they have no value. It's as important a form of music as early blues is. It's a type of folk music and as far as I'm concerned is historically important as well as being enjoyable to listen to.

    If you actually listen to the lyrics of the songs it's pretty obvious that they're from a time when Irish people were fighting to be free from British rule and that they have nothing to do with the latter day IRA that went around kneecapping drug dealers and planting bombs in busy streets to kill civilians.

    What I don't understand is why it's thought of as cool to listen to music that celebrates black power (for instance Gil Scott Heron), that addresses the struggle of people in third world countries (Bob Marley) or that simply talk about violence (most rap music) but it's almost taboo to listen to songs written about Irish peoples struggle for independence.

    This is a good CD. Judy Collins also did a great version of Rising Of The Moon.


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  • #322
    ColeTrain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭ColeTrain


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeT4tUcnEbE





    Not a rebel song but appropriate for the night that's in it

    Hail Hail :D


  • #323
    BeefyS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 65 ✭✭BeefyS


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    Oh dearie me for you using a generic argument to state that Irish rebel songs spread messages of hate and it is obvious that any discord / discussion / song / poetry etc can be classed as 'messages of hate' using your generic argument.

    And dearie me for your patronising tone, lack of capital letters and the use of 'innit'.

    So dearie me indeed.

    so you are using an overly simple black and white point on an arguement that is contextual? oh dearie me
    oh noes. not using capital letters on the internet and then saying 'innit' to add a bit of light heartedness, now this is a problem.
    patrionising tone? because the black and white points you are making dont actually mean much in something thats a bit more complicated? sorry, i didnt mean to talk about such complicated things. (now thats patrionising)
    if you dont want to hear anything bad said about previous rebel music then maybe dont post in a thread about it. its obvious how they can spread messages of hate but you and those around you dont seem to want to know.
    nodin wrote:
    ...and I just brought up a song that was written before the IRA was founded and you couldn't address that. Hence "pseudo intellectual".

    Whats "anti-britain" when its at home.

    i did address that here, so hence nothing.

    anti-britain = basic dislike/hate for brits/britain for reasons that are in our past. backwards, spiteful thinking that has no place in our world tomorrow.
    on the back of our focused anger and spite towards britain we kept voting in people that robbed our country blind. distracted to who was really f**king us but however.
    ive seen it soooo many times. people that actively hate britain, hate british people, love the ra etc. and use it to make themselves feel important and that they "know" something. theres a terrible undercurrent to it in our society (especially with scumbags) and there is so many other things we should be focusing on. but no, we have a chip on our shoulder and by god if its a big un


  • #324
    lecker Hendl
    Registered Users Posts: 409 ✭✭lecker Hendl


    I wouldn't sing rebel music on a night out. However I am prone to breaking out a few lines Spancil Hill or Slievenamon. great oul tunes in fairness. There's some good rebel ones too. Some people take them too seriously though. Sure they have no harm singing the anthem where we're killing the english in that too.


  • #325
    R P McMurphy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭R P McMurphy


    BeefyS wrote: »
    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    Oh dearie me for you using a generic argument to state that Irish rebel songs spread messages of hate and it is obvious that any discord / discussion / song / poetry etc can be classed as 'messages of hate' using your generic argument.

    And dearie me for your patronising tone, lack of capital letters and the use of 'innit'.

    So dearie me indeed.

    so you are using an overly simple black and white point on an arguement that is contextual? oh dearie me
    oh noes. not using capital letters on the internet and then saying 'innit' to add a bit of light heartedness, now this is a problem.
    patrionising tone? because the black and white points you are making dont actually mean much in something thats a bit more complicated? sorry, i didnt mean to talk about such complicated things. (now thats patrionising)
    if you dont want to hear anything bad said about previous rebel music then maybe dont post in a thread about it. its obvious how they can spread messages of hate but you and those around you dont seem to want to know.
    nodin wrote:
    ...and I just brought up a song that was written before the IRA was founded and you couldn't address that. Hence "pseudo intellectual".

    Whats "anti-britain" when its at home.

    i did address that here, so hence nothing.

    anti-britain = basic dislike/hate for brits/britain for reasons that are in our past. backwards, spiteful thinking that has no place in our world tomorrow.
    on the back of our focused anger and spite towards britain we kept voting in people that robbed our country blind. distracted to who was really f**king us but however.
    ive seen it soooo many times. people that actively hate britain, hate british people, love the ra etc. and use it to make themselves feel important and that they "know" something. theres a terrible undercurrent to it in society (especially with scumbags) and there is so many other things we should be focusing on. but no, we have a chip on our shoulder and by god if its a big un
    The basis of your point here is that fianna fail is an anti-British party. Can you provide one shred of evidence to back this up. Could you link to anything that would indicate any Irish politician leaders in the last 50 years voicing anti-British sentiments. Your posts are meaningless and completely incorrect.

    The damage done to the economy has been done through light touch regulation, overseen by FF with money supplied to Irish banks primarily from financial institutions based in london. People voted ff in because they were getting something in return which was a low direct tax economy not due to republican beliefs.


  • #326
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    tonycascarino wrote: »
    Yes, I listen to rebel music now and again. Much rather it than Jedward, Justin Beiber or whatever it is that is passed off as music today.
    luckily my options are not limited to rebel trad sh¡te or justine bieber


  • #327
    Johnny Foreigner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 923 ✭✭✭Johnny Foreigner


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaO4XeHhwo8


  • #328
    Johnny Foreigner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 923 ✭✭✭Johnny Foreigner


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVp7lkH10Gc


  • #329
    CillDaraAbu10
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭CillDaraAbu10


    ha ha


  • #330
    CillDaraAbu10
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭CillDaraAbu10


    ColeTrain wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeT4tUcnEbE





    Not a rebel song but appropriate for the night that's in it

    Hail Hail :D
    Great Video


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  • #331
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    BeefyS wrote: »
    .................
    anti-britain = basic dislike/hate for brits/britain for reasons that are in our past. backwards, spiteful thinking that has no place in our world tomorrow.
    on the back of our focused anger and spite towards britain we kept voting in people that robbed our country blind. distracted to who was really f**king us but however.
    ive seen it soooo many times. people that actively hate britain, hate british people, love the ra etc. and use it to make themselves feel important and that they "know" something. theres a terrible undercurrent to it in our society (especially with scumbags) and there is so many other things we should be focusing on. but no, we have a chip on our shoulder and by god if its a big un

    There's a chip on somebodys shoulder, certainly.


  • #332
    Paparazzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,397 ✭✭✭Paparazzo


    ColeTrain wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeT4tUcnEbE





    Not a rebel song but appropriate for the night that's in it

    Hail Hail :D

    The irony. All supporting a British team.


  • #333
    Madd Finn
    Registered Users Posts: 534 ✭✭✭Madd Finn


    Beir Bua wrote: »
    Big fan of rebel music here,



    A great song preformed and written by Irish legend Bik McFarlane.



    Irish what?? Bik McFarlane????

    Let's see. Convicted of a gun and bomb attack on a crowded pub. (Brave man)

    Prison escapee.

    Kidnapper of shopkeeper. (Don Tidey)

    Murderer (or leader of a group of men who murdered) an unarmed Garda cadet and an Irish soldier.

    Legend my arse.

    Guy's a toilet.


  • #334
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Paparazzo wrote: »
    The irony. All supporting a British team.
    They don't do irony.:pac:


  • #335
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    They don't do irony.:pac:

    Now, now keith.


  • #336
    ItsAWindUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,325 ✭✭✭ItsAWindUp


    Paparazzo wrote: »
    The irony. All supporting a British team.

    The patrons of that particular establishment haven't exactly got a reputation for intelligence


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  • #337
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ItsAWindUp wrote: »
    The patrons of that particular establishment haven't exactly got a reputation for intelligence

    You know all of them. do you?


  • #338
    KeithAFC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,239 ✭✭✭✭KeithAFC


    Nodin wrote: »
    Now, now keith.
    Thought it was a fair point. They don't do irony do they?


  • #339
    ItsAWindUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,325 ✭✭✭ItsAWindUp


    Nodin wrote: »
    You know all of them. do you?

    Well, no, but when the owner of a particular pub is arrested on charges of possesion of ammunition in the back of that pub, you really do have to wonder about the sort of people that drink there. I'm sure you would agree that the Black and Tans weren't exactly a bunch of good guys/ Did you know all of them?


  • #340
    Dionysus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,420 ✭✭✭Dionysus


    Madd Finn wrote: »
    Beir Bua wrote: »
    Big fan of rebel music here,



    A great song preformed and written by Irish legend Bik McFarlane.



    Irish what?? Bik McFarlane????

    Let's see. Convicted of a gun and bomb attack on a crowded pub. (Brave man)

    Prison escapee.

    Kidnapper of shopkeeper. (Don Tidey)

    Murderer (or leader of a group of men who murdered) an unarmed Garda cadet and an Irish soldier.

    Legend my arse.

    Guy's a toilet.


    Hehe. :-)


  • #341
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ItsAWindUp wrote: »
    Well, no, but when the owner of a particular pub is arrested on charges of possesion of ammunition in the back of that pub, you really do have to wonder about the sort of people that drink there.

    So if I went to a pub that it turns out was owned by a serial killer, its a reflection on me? Amazing.

    I went to Dunnes stores when Ben was still with them, and was caught going through his coke and hookers phase. Does that make me a coke and hookers guy?
    ItsAWindUp wrote: »
    I'm sure you would agree that the Black and Tans weren't exactly a bunch of good guys/ Did you know all of them?

    Well thats because the raison d'etre of the whole organisation was dubious from the start.........


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  • #342
    ItsAWindUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,325 ✭✭✭ItsAWindUp


    [QUOTE=Nodin;76214826Well thats because the raison d'etre of the whole organisation was dubious from the start.........[/QUOTE]

    The same could well be said for the Players Lounge


  • #343
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ItsAWindUp wrote: »
    The same could well be said for the Players Lounge

    It's a pub.

    Let's get back to your "logic". According to you

    Well, no, but when the owner of a particular pub is arrested on charges of possesion of ammunition in the back of that pub, you really do have to wonder about the sort of people that drink there.
    I went to Dunnes stores when Ben was still with them, and was caught going through his coke and hookers phase. Does that make me a coke and hookers guy?

    Well?


  • #344
    ItsAWindUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,325 ✭✭✭ItsAWindUp


    Nodin wrote: »
    It's a pub.

    Let's get back to your "logic". According to you


    I went to Dunnes stores when Ben was still with them, and was caught going through his coke and hookers phase. Does that make me a coke and hookers guy?

    Well?

    Not really the same thing


  • #345
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ItsAWindUp wrote: »
    Not really the same thing

    It's not? Please do explain. The owner of the business is caught during some criminal act, so why does it not reflect on the customers? Your logic dictates that it be so.


  • #346
    ItsAWindUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,325 ✭✭✭ItsAWindUp


    Nodin wrote: »
    It's not? Please do explain. The owner of the business is caught during some criminal act, so why does it not reflect on the customers? Your logic dictates that it be so.

    There is a slight difference between the owner of a supermarket chain taking drugs, and the owner of a pub (which by the way is heavily linked with the republican movement) having bullets in the back of that pub. Plus, I don't believe you really responded to my Black and Tans analogy


  • #347
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    ItsAWindUp wrote: »
    There is a slight difference between the owner of a supermarket chain taking drugs, and the owner of a pub (which by the way is heavily linked with the republican movement) having bullets in the back of that pub.

    So when you came into the Pub, there was a sign that listed out the prices of the lunches, what the soup was, pints and "Bullets In The Back" written in red chalk on the top? Or were patrons asked to sign a consent form, agreeing to be on premises that were used to store ammunition?
    ItsAWindUp wrote: »
    Plus, I don't believe you really responded to my Black and Tans analogy

    I believe I did. The raison d'etre of the organisation was to put down Irish resistance by use of force. Therefore you signed up to a certain agenda from the get go. Secondly, many of its members were involved in numerous incidents.


  • #348
    BeefyS
    Closed Accounts Posts: 65 ✭✭BeefyS


    R P McMurphy wrote: »
    The basis of your point here is that fianna fail is an anti-British party.

    its not the basis of my point, what im saying is people focus their hate on one specific thing while we didnt know who was truly fuking us. in a lot of other countries i find people look inwards for problems instead of having one big enemy next door who people can rally against. thats what im saying was the problem here, its a great distraction while we all get screwed by successive governments of crooks - not that FF are anti-britain

    nodin wrote:
    There's a chip on somebodys shoulder, certainly.

    explain how. ive answered pretty much everything thrown at me in a pretty concise manner. are you just getting frustrated that *shock horror* there might be truth to what ive said? that people grasp onto causes like the ra, hating britain etc cos they want to feel more important then they actually are?


  • #349
    Defiler Of The Coffin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,117 ✭✭✭Defiler Of The Coffin


    Paparazzo wrote: »
    The irony. All supporting a British team.

    Such simplistic nonsense. That's like saying GAA is a British sport because London play in the championship. Celtic's Irish connections are obvious.


  • #350
    membersonly
    Registered Users Posts: 479 ✭✭membersonly


    Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »
    Such simplistic nonsense. That's like saying GAA is a British sport because London play in the championship. Celtic's Irish connections are obvious.

    Jesus, it's so not.

    They are a British team, located in Britain, playing in a British league.


  • #351
    Defiler Of The Coffin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,117 ✭✭✭Defiler Of The Coffin


    membersonly wrote: »
    Jesus, it's so not.

    They are a British team, located in Britain, playing in a British league.

    Where they play or what league they play in is irrelevant. They are a club with an Irish ethos. The tri-colour flies above Celtic Park and the fans sing Irish songs. As so many have already said in this thread 'their location does not define them'. It is not ironic for republicans to support Celtic.

    KeithAFC wrote: »
    Thought it was a fair point. They don't do irony do they?

    Maybe you don't either. You live in Ireland right? This makes you Irish then, no matter how you may identify yourself.


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