Who thinks Sean Quinn is a great businessman now?

ray giraffe · 12-11-2011 2:13am

overshoot wrote: »

comes down to the above imo, if quinn is a thieving git for building up a company from scratch and fucking it up so he cant pay his debts isnt the man who cant pay his morgage in a similar boat?
both may have started with nothing, both thought they would have money and ended up in negative equity.
difference is quinn's debt is bigger but he employed 8000 directly in 2009 plus hundreds more indirectly, so 8000+ could afford houses thanks to him.
as i said, 2.8bn debt now but how much money has his company contributed over the last 30 years? big picture!

You obviously don't understand how big 2.8 billion is. It dwarfs the contribution he made to Co. Cavan and Fermanagh

Ace2007 · 12-11-2011 2:14am

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

When were these rules enforced and how long has Quinn been building up his businesses?

The reason's why it wasn't expose earlier where for outside reasons, just cause you don't get caught doesn't mean your not a criminal.

overshoot · 12-11-2011 2:19am

ray giraffe wrote: »

You obviously don't understand how big 2.8 billion is. It dwarfs the contribution he made to Co. Cavan and Fermanagh

i added in a bit where if his 8000 employees got a morgage at 200000 its 1.6bn.... + disposable income from the job + spin off...now over 30 years..... we start to come up and probably past 2.8billion

desertcircus · 12-11-2011 2:22am

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

He very rightly was making the effort to keep the value of his company so he wouldn't have to lay off so many people. It's a lot better than what the real crooks did.

Emotion driven nonsense. How the hell would he have known that the banks were going to be nationalised when he invested so much money in the bank.

If she did that sure wouldn't there be even more jobs lost at the Quinn Group leading to thousands of job losses.

He did more than any other businessman to help his employees and his community than any other businessman in the last 30 year. I find your use of the word "scum" highly disingenuous.

In order:

1. To repeat: taking a loan from a company to buy shares in that company is illegal at worst and extremely unethical at best. The most charitable perspective is that he borrowed nearly three hundred million he didn't have and colluded with the bank to mislead investors, shareholders and the public at large. I can't believe anyone thinks this is a good thing - people are claiming he's a victim? That isn't good behaviour; it's awful.

2. Again: I would have some respect for him had he handed over the money once it became clear that the money he wasn't paying back was money coming out of the public purse. He didn't, so it's the post-meltdown period we're talking about.

3. No. We're talking about him holding personal wealth and spreading it around his family to keep it from the people he owes it to, SINCE he lost control of the Quinn Group. What he does now has no bearing on the number of jobs kept or lost within that group, because it's not his anymore.

4. How are people not getting this? He's costing this country nearly three billion euro. To put that into perspective, our annual budget is in the region of 40-50 billion a year. That's a staggering amount of money.

And finally: I DON'T CARE WHAT HE DID BEFORE THIS. It doesn't matter, any more than a serial killer's history of feeding stray cats matters in making a judgment on him. He made a series of decisions that cost the state almost three billion euro, and is now leading his creditors on a wild goose chase while trying to weasel out of his responsibilities by declaring bankruptcy in a neighbouring country.

woodoo · 12-11-2011 2:22am

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

a gambler doesnt get to keep the pot when he's lost the game

this guy is a criminal. CAB should go after his family

Exactly, this business of transferring assets into the families name to avoid debts should be a criminal offence.

Plenty more of the big fish have been at the same. They are a disgrace. Enemies of the people.

ray giraffe · 12-11-2011 2:29am

overshoot wrote: »

i added in a bit where if his 8000 employees got a morgage at 200000 its 1.6bn.... + disposable income from the job + spin off...now over 30 years..... we start to come up and probably past 2.8billion

1. For most of 30 years there have been nowhere near 8000 employees employed by Quinn.

2. If I employ you for 30 years and you earn (say) a million euro, have I "given" you a million euro? You have had to work for 30 years for it. In any case, you would have been able to earn a similar income in another job in a different part of Ireland or UK with a similar skillset.

3. Let's imagine he "gave" wages to 8000 people for 30 years. How much would those 8000 employees have to "give back" to cancel out 2.8 billion? €350,000 each. Do you think they would still be happy with the deal?

If Quinn's losses were imposed on his ex-employees, every one of them would be bankrupt before 2.8 billion would be recovered. Imagine!

Now we can see the the total cost to several million taxpayers is in fact far greater than the total benefit to several thousand employees.

I am sure the above argument still holds even if you include all taxes paid by Quinn + Employees over the years - counted as a gain for the country.

I guess you could take the line that Co. Cavan as a whole is better off with Quinn having been around than having not been around, even considering his huge losses. And you're probably right.

However every other county in the south is a net loser, baling out Quinn while having received far less benefit than Co. Cavan.

Ace2007 · 12-11-2011 2:29am

overshoot wrote: »

i added in a bit where if his 8000 employees got a morgage at 200000 its 1.6bn.... + disposable income from the job + spin off...now over 30 years..... we start to come up and probably past 2.8billion

over 30 years? it's only within the last 10 years i'd say that the average cost of a house was 200k, of these 8k how many are now struggling to pay it off, how many are thinking what the future holds, the possibility that because of quinn's gamble that didn't win that their jobs could be gone in 5 years time?

Simple put, had he not been greedy, risk it ALL, risk all the jobs, then none of this would have happend, he wouldn't have found himself in this mess, he wouldn't have had to declare himself bankrupt, people wouldn't have to worry.

one man's greed = 8,000 worried people (based on your calculatoins) - true figure is about 5,000

I wonder why he filed for it this week, a week after anglo went to the high court? hmm, why wait till now. He's a coward.

Ace2007 · 12-11-2011 2:32am

also to add, he is going to sue anglo apparantly - where is he going to get the money to fight the case?

NIMAN · 12-11-2011 2:39am

I love the way the media reports are full of "once Irelands richest man, SQ is now bankrupt", as if he has nothing left and is the same as you and me.

Yeah, I would guess he is really struggling to cope with the couple of hundred million that he and his family have to survive on. Money that is well hidden by his clever accountants and advisors.

dixiefly · 12-11-2011 2:40am

syklops wrote: »

We lost a lot of things during the boom, but its nice to see we didnt lose everything. Things like begrudgery and the delight we have at seeing people who tried, fail.

Stay proud lazygal.

Easy to throw out the begrudgery line, Quinn took a massive massive gamble that failed spectacularly. Also he seems to have indulged in dodgy business practices.

So, I dont think people are begrudging when they agree that he is not a great businessman.

Then again it probably depends on what you term to be a great businessman.

ascanbe · 12-11-2011 2:57am

This is the country where fraudsters aren't even properly investigated and can rely on the government, i.e. the citizens of this country, to pick up the tab for the preposterously enormous gambling losses they accrued.
And it's the country where others who accrued preposterous losses in their speculation on the property market aren't expected to pay their debt/suffer any consequences, can rely on the government to pick up the tab on behalf of the citizens and, not only that, are then kept in gainful employment managing the 'property portfolio' at the root of the problem, and GET PAID A SIZEABLE WAGE for the privilege.
You really would struggle to make this sh*t up.
But then, this is Ireland and it will continue as long as people let it continue.

woodoo · 12-11-2011 2:58am

Ace2007 wrote: »

also to add, he is going to sue anglo apparantly - where is he going to get the money to fight the case?

Watch this banana republic in action. He will sue Anglo and win. We own Anglo so we will end up giving him more money.

okiss · 12-11-2011 3:01am

Exactly, this business of transferring assets into the families name to avoid debts should be a criminal offence.
In regards to the above one of Sean Quinn daughter trained as a nurse in Mater hospital and it was a well known fact that one his pubs in Drumcondra was her name.
So Sean was doing this long before his fall from grace.

He said today that his business was in Co Farmanagh and that is why he became bankrupt in the North of Ireland. What a load of s***** when in 12 month time he can open a new business.
Sean Quinn has left us clearing up his mess. He made no effort what so ever in letting us get some of the money back which he gambled from the sale of his assets.
He still lives in a large house and is not worried that the bank is going to take away any day now. He is not signing on in Cavan each week and deciding which bill to pay next. He is not worried that his wife will lose her job or how his kids will get through college or have the money to leave Ireland.

Ronin247 · 12-11-2011 3:35am

Ace2007 wrote: »

lol

Decent,intelligent reply

Ace2007 wrote: »

The reason's why it wasn't expose earlier where for outside reasons, just cause you don't get caught doesn't mean your not a criminal.

We keep hearing how the laws are not sufficient to lock up the bankers and investors,funny how when Quinn bought BUPA the government managed to pass legislation after close of business to stop Quinn not having to pay for risk equalisation.
I am not saying Quinn is a saint but the government went out of the way to try putting him in his place.Harneys legislation did not hold up in a supreme court appeal.

I feel that because Quinn is not part of the D4 clique and is "new" money he got fcuked over.I do believe that he will go to court with Anglo and win,he will still be rich and we will still be paying the bill.I do not blame Quinn for this I blame the government that took over a private companies debts for no good reason.
Anglo got money off bondholders,loaned money to Quinn to buy shares,loaned money to builders to speculate,cooked the accounts untill it was no longer able to hide the losses causing the share price to crash.Quinn lost a shed full of money and so couldnt repay the bank who in turn couldnt repay the bondholders.Government steps in and pays the bondholders and blames Quinn for the losses.

The banks gambled,the bondholders gambled,Sean Quinn gambled,they all lost and we got the bill...One big ponzi scheme.

K-9 · 12-11-2011 3:47am

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

He BUILT a business up over THIRTY years. HE EARNED IT!! People seem to forget that he began as an ordinary menial worker and make his way to the top. How many people could say that they'd be capable of that.

You never asked me why (or even if) he gambled with jobs. He made a mistake, granted, investing in Anglo in the first place. But when he realised that Anglo shares were falling, at least he made the effort to rack up the share price, which would keep the company's value which in turn would help pay employees.

To get some idea of what Quinn did with Anglo, just to put some kind of perspective on the f*ck up he did:

It's the biggest single loss EVER, on a transaction like that. Not in Ireland, in the world. This was some jumped up bank in Ireland.

Buffet and the likes lost more but that was over years, and made it back over years.

The guy didn't have a clue of what he is getting into.

12-11-2011 5:07am

he was lauded for creating jobs in a bog-hole and the government loved him for it for taking people off the scratcher up there but it was just an artificial reserves fake. disgusts me that people are still standing up for him. it's retarded.

eire.man · 12-11-2011 10:49am

typical Irish atitude towards the man, he tried to do something that failed and at a real wrong time! simple. I keep thinking it must be some sickener to go from +€5.5bn to -€2.8

I also keep thinking how the inner circle may have pitched this to Sean, knowing the true state of the banks finances and may have let his put the noose around his neck to save face for the "bigger boys". I've seen people convinced to invest (albeit much smaller amounts but then that's relative really) in business ventures just to share the burden and that could be what played out here.

Guy:Incognito · 12-11-2011 10:51am

Ronin247 wrote: »

I feel that because Quinn is not part of the D4 clique and is "new" money he got fcuked over..

Who "fcucked him over" by making him not conform to the rules that other companies had to abide by?

desertcircus · 12-11-2011 10:57am

eire.man wrote: »

typical Irish atitude towards the man, he tried to do something that failed and at a real wrong time! simple. I keep thinking it must be some sickener to go from +€5.5bn to -€2.8

I also keep thinking how the inner circle may have pitched this to Sean, knowing the true state of the banks finances and may have let his put the noose around his neck to save face for the "bigger boys". I've seen people convinced to invest (albeit much smaller amounts but then that's relative really) in business ventures just to share the burden and that could be what played out here.

He WAS the inner circle. By the time things went bad he owned between a sixth and a quarter of Anglo. He was on the hook for over two billion BEFORE everything went bad. How are people still misunderstanding this?

Patrick2010 · 12-11-2011 11:13am

Quinn was worth a fortune but got greedy and wanted more, risking his companies and all his employees jobs. Now him and his family are trying to get out of paying back the money he borrowed (I assume no one put a gun to his head and forced him to take it). If he doesn't pay back the 2.8 billion then it'll have to come from the taxpayer. I assume those standing up for the great man are happy to take on this debt?

Ronin247 · 12-11-2011 11:19am

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Who "fcucked him over" by making him not conform to the rules that other companies had to abide by?

In 2006 my friend who had a very good,cash rich business, got a call from the bank manager with an investment proposal.

E500,000 in AIB shares with a loan from the bank to buy them.The dividend from the shares would cover the interest on the loan and a small profit per annum. He put up some property to guarantee the loan and everything was rosy.
Now that the shares have gone from E18 to about 82cent each he has lost roughly E470,000 and he is up sh*t creek without a paddle.

His was a genuine investment in good faith.If you found out later that the bank had deliberately propped up the share price you would feel fcuked over,as far as I can see that is what went on with Quinn.Greed was his downfall,but greed only made him susceptible to being fleeced.

As the saying goes " You can only con a greedy man" but we are blaming the greedy man and not the conman!!

Guy:Incognito · 12-11-2011 11:24am

Ronin247 wrote: »

In 2006 my friend who had a very good,cash rich business, got a call from the bank manager with an investment proposal.

E500,000 in AIB shares with a loan from the bank to buy them.The dividend from the shares would cover the interest on the loan and a small profit per annum. He put up some property to guarantee the loan and everything was rosy.
Now that the shares have gone from E18 to about 82cent each he has lost roughly E470,000 and he is up sh*t creek without a paddle.

His was a genuine investment in good faith.If you found out later that the bank had deliberately propped up the share price you would feel fcuked over,as far as I can see that is what went on with Quinn.Greed was his downfall,but greed only made him susceptible to being fleeced.

As the saying goes " You can only con a greedy man" but we are blaming the greedy man and not the conman!!

What has any of that got to do with Quinn having the rules of how to run an insurance company in front of him where it says that he has to keep a certain amount of cash reserves to pay out claims and him deciding "fcuk it, I'll use that money elsewhere instead"? He fraudulently ran his company , theres no ifs and buts there.

Again, if his company was let fail like other private businesses, all those people would now be on the dole, through no ones fault but Sean Quinn

caddy2 · 12-11-2011 11:50am

a great businessman stays in business.
and he most certainly doesnt take half the country down with him.

Ronin247 · 12-11-2011 12:00pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

What has any of that got to do with Quinn having the rules of how to run an insurance company in front of him where it says that he has to keep a certain amount of cash reserves to pay out claims and him deciding "fcuk it, I'll use that money elsewhere instead"? He fraudulently ran his company , theres no ifs and buts there.

Again, if his company was let fail like other private businesses, all those people would now be on the dole, through no ones fault but Sean Quinn

Its funny how the rules for insurance companies get trotted out again and again.Quinn bought BUPA and the government rushed legislation through overnight to change the rules to suit them to the detriment of Quinn.If no one is playing by the rules why do we expect Quinn to be held to them.

bayern282 · 12-11-2011 12:07pm

who remembers that Ireland's richest programme a couple of years back with Craig Doyle's tongue wedged in his arse cheeks.

The media were telling us little folk that him, Sean Fitzpatrick etc were living deities pre-2007.

desertcircus · 12-11-2011 12:20pm

Ronin247 wrote: »

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

What has any of that got to do with Quinn having the rules of how to run an insurance company in front of him where it says that he has to keep a certain amount of cash reserves to pay out claims and him deciding "fcuk it, I'll use that money elsewhere instead"? He fraudulently ran his company , theres no ifs and buts there.

Again, if his company was let fail like other private businesses, all those people would now be on the dole, through no ones fault but Sean Quinn

Its funny how the rules for insurance companies get trotted out again and again.Quinn bought BUPA and the government rushed legislation through overnight to change the rules to suit them to the detriment of Quinn.If no one is playing by the rules why do we expect Quinn to be held to them.

This is insanity. He broke the rules lending to another company of his, not buying Bupa. He admitted wrongdoing!

amacachi · 12-11-2011 12:23pm

He is an excellent business man, he's probably had little impact on his lifestyle and now definitely won't. In a year's time he can get stuff signed back over and start speculating all over again.

thebaz · 12-11-2011 1:13pm

I find this hardly believable , his assetts are less than 50,000 - sure his hotel alone would be worth 500,000 at least - ****ing incredible how gullible some people think the rest of us - shame on the northern courts

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/1112/1224307462263.htm

Wertz · 12-11-2011 1:32pm

desertcircus wrote: »

He WAS the inner circle. By the time things went bad he owned between a sixth and a quarter of Anglo. He was on the hook for over two billion BEFORE everything went bad. How are people still misunderstanding this?

There are a lot of assertions being made by both sides of the argument... I'm genuinely open to having my mind changed on this argument and I am far from in thrall to Quinn given all that has gone and is going on.

Can you give us some links on him being inner circle prior to the sh*tstorm? Did he sit on the board of directors? Or was it just a large shareholding? From what I knew of it, he was approached to buy CFDs in early '08...how long before had he a major interest in the bank?
I'm aware of what went on with his insruance group to an extent, after the regulator called it in...has it ever been revealed how far back the criminal underfunding of the companies reserves went back? Was that before the anglo collapse as well as afterwards?

I suppose what I'm really asking is when did the criminality begin within the empire.
I would hasten to add that the guy should pay his debts and that transfers to family in an attempt to preserve wealth/assets whilst understandable on their behalf is sickening...

Biggins · 12-11-2011 1:37pm

An article from the Indo' that might clear up a few matter concerning his bankruptcy claim:

UK v Ireland: how bankruptcy differs between the two

Has Sean Quinn fled across the Border to escape his debts?

No, he applied for voluntary bankruptcy in Belfast. The money he owes in the Republic, including to Anglo, will all be included in the UK bankruptcy.

So why go to Belfast?

Sean Quinn is from Fermanagh and has long-standing connections to Northern Ireland. He says the High Court in Belfast was simply the appropriate place for him to be declared bankrupt.

But?

But the UK has a much softer bankruptcy system than the Republic. Under the rules there, Mr Quinn could be debt-free in a year, compared with 12 years in the Republic.

So the UK is the soft option?

Any bankruptcy is serious but Belfast is the softer option.

What is bankruptcy?

Bankruptcy means admitting you can't honour your debts and handing control of your finances to the courts.

In the UK, the court appoints a trustee to manage your affairs. They sell everything -- including your share in the family home, your cars, watches and jewellery -- and divide the money raised between those to whom you owe money. Even if the cash raised does not cover the loans, it does not matter -- the bankrupt person is no longer responsible for the debt.

A bankrupt person loses the right to manage their financial affairs. They cannot be a director of a company for the period, are not allowed to borrow money and the trustee has complete control of every penny they own.

So even if you owe billions, you are free and clear in a year under the UK rules?

Yes, with two main exceptions. If you owe a lot of money, the UK courts will expect you to live a modest lifestyle for two years after the bankruptcy. To make sure it happens, they take a share of your wages, but won't prevent you going back into business.

The other exception is more serious. If the official managing the bankruptcy thinks the bankrupt person is hiding assets or has undeclared income, they can prevent them from exiting the bankruptcy.

How can Irish debts be cancelled by UK courts?

Under an international treaty, all countries in the European Economic Area, which includes all of the EU plus the likes of Switzerland, have agreed that a bankruptcy in any country is respected in all the others.

Sean Quinn says he owes Anglo €200m, the bank says he owes 10 times that; does that matter?

It's up to the trustee to listen to both sides before deciding on the correct figure.

And after all that, you start with a clean slate?

Yes, debts are effectively written off after bankruptcy.

Is there anything to stop this?

Anglo has already queried Sean Quinn's right to use the UK system and can go to court with a formal objection.

Source: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/uk-v-ireland-how-bankruptcy-differs-between-the-two-2932952.html

...Long story short: If Quinn is clever enough and bides his time for two/three years - he's in the clear!
(...And I suspect he a very shrude person indeed)

Who thinks Sean Quinn is a great businessman now?

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