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RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

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Comments

  • #1302
    Apogee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    watty wrote: »
    The Irish spot downlink is uplinked in Arganda Spain (GW4). There is direct fibre from Ireland to Spain, hence no Elfordstown or Donnybook uplink for Saorsat.

    I suspect that was true when that map was drawn up but not now. At the talk on future of Elfordstown, it was mentioned how some of the spots were initially covered from continental Europe, but were then being switched over to Elfordstown.


  • #1303
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    The Cush wrote: »
    62 spots only covering the high density areas of N America according to http://www.satbeams.com/satellites?id=2462

    Hmm less spots and more capacity. Maybe the 110 figure I'm thinking of is current WildBlue which is two Ka band satellites.

    62 spots and 56 transponders suggests some transponders using two sub bands of frequencies and thus feeding two spots. You would only need 6 dual frequency transponders shared. 50 spots + 12 spots.
    If all the transponders are the same on Viasat1, then 50 spots would have twice the capacity of remaining 12. In USA they found with WildBlue that some spots fully subscribed (edges of cities may have big populations and poor or no cable access) and fully rural spots under-subscribed.

    So this re-enforces the 2nd thoughts that each Ka-Sat transponder serves 1 or 2 spots (some may serve only one spot) via using 2 x 238MHz per transponder.

    No doubt eventually more information will dribble out. For sure with 82 spots any particular spot can ONLY be one or part of one transponder, so if there are 2 x RTE frequencies and 3 x Viasat/Tooway/Eutelsat Internet "Services" each 50Msym/s those will be 5 carriers on a single transponder.

    An "official" document does refer to ka-sat having 238MHz Transponders. But if that is only 41 transponders, it's maybe too little for 70Gbps+ capacity. If each transponder has only 238MHz and there are 41 rather than 82, then the high part and low part of band would be only 119MHz each. That would mean the Irish spot would be "full" with 2 x 25Msym/s RTE Saorview and 1 x 50Msym/s Internet (DOCSIS DVB-S2 downlink).

    In such a case you can only have 20,000 customers on a spot with no TV, if contention is 1000:1! Or 1000 customers at 50:1. In Ireland then due to Saorsat there would be 1/2 this = 10,000 customers 1000:1, 5,000 @ 500:1 and only 500 customers @ 50:1 contention.

    You can see why they may be coy about exact configuration of Transponders as they don't want people to see how rubbish the congestion could be with the claimed capacity of Internet customers. (Hylas1 is worse as the spots on it cover a much larger area).


  • #1304
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Apogee wrote: »
    I suspect that was true when that map was drawn up but not now. At the talk on future of Elfordstown, it was mentioned how some of the spots were initially covered from continental Europe, but were then being switched over to Elfordstown.

    I think that may be a recent map as they originally talked about 10 to 12 gateways and there are now only 8. Elfordstown appears to serve 10 spots.


  • #1305
    Apogee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    watty wrote: »
    I think that may be a recent map as they originally talked about 10 to 12 gateways and there are now only 8. Elfordstown appears to serve 10 spots.

    Yes, you're right, I didn't notice all the other spots attributed to GW3.

    I wonder what's the rationale behind the way the spots are distributed among the Gateways? I was expecting each Gateway to service a specific region in Europe (e.g. Elfordstown to cover Britain and Ireland), or for each Gateway to be linked to a set band/polarisation (e.g. Elfordstown serving green spots).


  • #1306
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    I'd love a complete really technical explanation of ka-Sat. There is much that is vague or obscure.

    I ringed all the GW3 on a printout. I don't know what logic is involved. It apparently feeds spots of all 4 colours


  • #1307
    Apogee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    I found this presentation which some small additional techinical specs.
    http://www.gvf.org/docs/oil-gaz-europe-11/D1_1400_Nicholas_Daly.pdf


  • #1308
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Thanks
    Page 5: My supposition about how the four dishes are used (one for each of the four "colours" and approx twenty feeds per dish), each dish is one part of band and polarisation only.

    Page 6: Plumber's nightmare!

    Page 9: 8+2 gateway beams, Per Gateway 10 or 12 spots. Hence source of 8,10 and 12 figures in garbled news releases in the past.

    Page 13: Also a 1.2m dish and different modem. I thought there had to be a "professional" / "Corporate" solution too (also possibly for apartment block).


    Interesting. Still leaves much unanswered as to how the gateway up & down links work though.


  • #1309
    warlikedave
    Registered Users Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭warlikedave


    warlikedave wrote: »
    I know this is slightly off topic but this is something that has been bugging me as a fan of FTA TV: is the days of the widebeam astra and other satillites coming to an end and we will be limited to narrow localised content on tight/narrow beam satillites?

    Thanks to all of ye for compliling all this info about this in the thread - it has been and is an interesting read :)

    No one has an insight or opinion into this? just thought id ask.


  • #1310
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Start a new thread. It's been discussed earlier on this one.

    People receiving C band worried about this when Ku started. Astra 2D and Astra 1N are narrowish Ku. Most wide transmissions are encrypted. It will benefit the majority receiving them if they are narrow beam FTA. Pay TV will remain encrypted and on narrower beams as cards do not limit geographic coverage. Things like DWTV, BBC World or main German channels will stay on wider beams on Ku.


  • #1311
    rlogue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rlogue


    A fairly miserable vista Watty.


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  • #1312
    Apogee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    The carrier is back up and the video loops and testcards are visible.


  • #1313
    dbcool
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭dbcool


    hi - still can't seem to get a lock on any signal - what are the exact transponder and setting you are using on your receiver apogee so i can try them on mine/


  • #1314
    warlikedave
    Registered Users Posts: 1,529 ✭✭✭warlikedave


    watty wrote: »
    Start a new thread. It's been discussed earlier on this one.

    People receiving C band worried about this when Ku started. Astra 2D and Astra 1N are narrowish Ku. Most wide transmissions are encrypted. It will benefit the majority receiving them if they are narrow beam FTA. Pay TV will remain encrypted and on narrower beams as cards do not limit geographic coverage. Things like DWTV, BBC World or main German channels will stay on wider beams on Ku.

    I was looking for an insight or an experienced opinion only - no need to be sharp and thank you for your insight


  • #1315
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    No intention to be "sharp". It HAS been discussed at length already on this thread. New threads are free. There is a thread on Astra 1N already mentioning this too. You'll get more response and discussion on a separate thread.


  • #1316
    Apogee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    @dbcool - have you got a signal meter? You might have to vary the position of the LNB inwards/outwards along the feed arm to peak the signal. The angle of the LNB may be a bit off too - perhaps aimed a bit too high?


    163418.jpg

    163420.jpg


  • #1317
    dbcool
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭dbcool


    thanks -

    all ive done is park the dish on 9e - take the ku off and put my homemade holder for the ka lnb on - then blind scanned with a spiderbox and a az hd box no joy - then i've treied 11996 no joy either - i can't enter the transpoder strting with a 2 like your v+ can - i think i'll need the meter out tomorrow - to check - just hope the loop is still there again!

    i'd like to know issa's settings - he seems to have then on an different transponder to you - his box probabley reads them like a spiderbox - but hi picture as just a bit hazy .


  • #1318
    Apogee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    11996 is wrong for that LNB.

    20185 - 18750 + 9750 = 11185 MHz if you choose a Universal LNB (the default in all receivers).


  • #1319
    dbcool
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭dbcool


    i'll try that - isaa's picture looks like transponder 11966 -

    nah still nothing - out with the meter tomorrow .


  • #1320
    Apogee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Antenna Setup
    163429.jpg


    Sat/TP Edit
    163430.jpg


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  • #1321
    dbcool
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭dbcool


    thanks for the az hd box settings - had a play about wiht these setting but i can only get a maximum of 70% signal with no quality.


    i'll try again tomorrow!


  • #1322
    Mr. Rabbit
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Mr. Rabbit


    dbcool wrote: »
    not sniff in NEWTOWNABBEY !
    trying my new hughes ka lnb with td110 triax and doing a blind scan with a spiderbox hd on 9e - not a sniff of saorsat - have trieD the 2 transponders manually but nothing at all! i will keep trying already been at it for 3 hours but looks like the ka spot bEams are super tight!

    Hmmmm

    Doesn't look encouraging.

    Will obviously have to wait for the increase in power and removal of the northern restriction from Clermont Cairn, or the NI mini mux from either Carnmoney Hill or Divis (?) at the end of next year (?)

    Unless it actually is switched off.

    Will be interested to see if you get anything after the 20th dbcool !

    In Newtownabbey as well (Jordanstown). Perfect analogue signals.


  • #1323
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    11996 = 11146 since tone on/off is meaningless.

    (subtract 10600, add 9750)
    or 20146 (subtract 10600, add 18750) which is 19 MHz out.

    It was a Ferguson Ariva on Blind scan. However it makes no sense to me either.


  • #1324
    Apogee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    19MHz is a long ways out, for any blindscanner. When I blindscanned with an Edision in April (which shares most of its hardware with the Ferguson), the frequency returned was bang on the money.


  • #1325
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    19MHz out won't work... so I don't know what the story is. Maybe the DRO is off on the Hughes LNB or there was a non-standard LO set on the Ferguson box.

    For non-sky DVB-S2 I have only S3200 Technotrend.

    I'm not available to look at this last few days or today sadly.


  • #1326
    Apogee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    dbcool wrote: »
    i'll try again tomorrow!

    Any luck?

    By right, the Azbox settings for Modulation should be DVB-S2/QPSK, rather than DVB-S2/8PSK, but it doesn't seem to matter on the Azbox (the tuning is a POS in that receiver).

    I also did a blindscan as a test with the Azbox using a Universal LNB setting and it picked up the channels at 11185MHz (thought the FEC was incorrectly reported as 5/6).


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  • #1327
    marclt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 848 ✭✭✭marclt


    Judging by those maps, it looks like a lot of western wales will be included in the RTE saorsat coverage area.


  • #1328
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    The Welsh coast, not a lot of Wales, maybe a bit better than big aerials. Where the Calais or Scottish spot signal is equal to Irish (the red lines) you are already far too far out from Irish Spot.


  • #1329
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Apogee wrote: »
    I also did a blindscan as a test with the Azbox using a Universal LNB setting and it picked up the channels at 11185MHz (thought the FEC was incorrectly reported as 5/6).

    11185MHz is what I'd expect.

    11185 - 9750 (Ku LO) = 1435
    1435 + 18750 (Ka LO) = 20185

    Is it possible they might have been testing 5/6 just then?


  • #1330
    Mr. Rabbit
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Mr. Rabbit


    If dbcool can't get anything in newtownabbey then I've no hope.

    Is the transponder currently broadcasting a signal ? Is dbcool doing someing wrong with his set up ?

    Just curious.

    Would be nice to be able to put my old Sky dish to some sort of use. Hopefully, it wont be a waste of time.


  • #1331
    dbcool
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭dbcool


    after another few hours play today - still nadda!
    one of two things
    the beam is super tight! or the lnb is faulty

    if someone who is curently getting saorsat would like to help me - i could post them my lnb and they could check to see if its working - ( it is brand new ) alternativley is there a way i can test it myself?

    mind you i see need to get my friend with the spectrum round!


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  • #1332
    Mr. Rabbit
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Mr. Rabbit


    dbcool wrote: »
    after another few hours play today - still nadda!
    one of two things
    the beam is super tight! or the lnb is faulty

    if someone who is curently getting saorsat would like to help me - i could post them my lnb and they could check to see if its working - ( it is brand new ) alternativley is there a way i can test it myself?

    mind you i see need to get my friend with the spectrum round!

    Where abouts roughly in Newtownabbey are you located dbcool ?

    I'm in Jordanstown (off the Jordanstown road above the level crossing i.e. near st. Patricks church) and get a perfect analogue picture from Clermont Cairn so, no doubt, I should get reasonable Saorview when the power is increased and the northern restriction removed next year, as well as the new mini RTE mux from Carnmoney Hill (and Divis ?).

    Was interested in Saorsat as I reckoned it might be a good alternative especially if I ever ditch Sky. I'll be interested to hear what the guys suggest as I'm not that tech. savy when it comes to this type of satellite and LNB (it's an LNB F that you need, right ?). All these tech. abreviations are double dutch to me.

    For example what is a DiSEqC, what does it do, how do you instal and set it up, why do you need it for the Ka band etc. etc.

    Just a pity the whole thing wasn't soft encrypted at 28.2 degrees E, but I know, we've discussed all this before and it can't (or is far too expensive) be done.

    A simple demonstration video on Youtube would be very, very helpful ! What about guys ?


  • #1333
    Apogee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    dbcool wrote: »
    if someone who is curently getting saorsat would like to help me - i could post them my lnb and they could check to see if its working - ( it is brand new ) alternativley is there a way i can test it myself?

    Have you tried a signal meter? Are you registering an increase in signal when the dish is positioned on either 13E or 9E?

    I can test the LNB but the probability is that it's fine anyway. I would strongly recommend getting your friend with the spectrum analyzer round - you should have it working in 10 mins.


  • #1334
    Apogee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    watty wrote: »
    Is it possible they might have been testing 5/6 just then?

    No, the software on the Azbox is all over the place.


  • #1335
    dbcool
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭dbcool


    is the test loop working today before i ruin fathers day looking for it ?


  • #1336
    dbcool
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭dbcool


    currrent state of play
    ( still no meter )

    when i pop off the ka lnb and put the ku back on - i dont move the dish at all - and just bling scan 9e and every transponder comes in 100%

    i have fashioned an lnb holdr from another triax dish so i can just pop it off and on but still when i put the ka lnb back on - and blind scan still nothing - the signl level reaches a peak at the start of the scan at around 70% but falls to 64% at its lowest signal level -

    can't see whats wrong at all and still waiting for the loan meter - but i know my dish is 100% on 9e.


  • #1337
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Alignment is 4x more critical on Ka than Ku and exact position of LNB is very very critical according to Gerry.

    We have had a sort of personal family crisis here, so I have not been able to look in the last week. Maybe the coming week I will have time.


  • #1338
    Apogee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    dbcool wrote: »
    currrent state of play
    ( still no meter )

    Get a meter. As you're using a 110cm dish on Ka-band, you need to be precise with the positioning of the LNB. The margin for error is tight.
    dbcool wrote: »
    is the test loop working today before i ruin fathers day looking for it ?

    Yes, but if you don't have a meter, you'll have ruined father's day with nothing to show for it.


  • #1339
    rlogue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rlogue


    So in short Saorsat will not be as simple as setting up a dish for Astra2/Eurobird then. Good news for the trade but if I were Woodys or B&Q there won't be much point in stocking DIY Saorsat kits.


  • #1340
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    110cm is not typical size. The bigger the dish the harder to point. Even on Ku you really need a decent meter for 110cm or you spend a lot of time.

    A 65cm ka dish would be like aligning a 90cm ku dish.
    A consumer kit will have a proper feed. Aligning a bare LNB with no proper bracket and no feed horn is harder anyway.

    Many DIY dish installs are poor and often signal is lost in rain.

    Given that Saorsat is for the approx 5% that won't get Saorview I hardly think B&Q or Woodies will stock anyway. Given the poor quality of Dunnes, Lidl, B&Q and Aldi mount + Dish and fact none of these are proper freesat but cheap generic receivers, it will be doing the public a service if they don't stock. Actually a lot of the Maplin stuff isn't much good either, though they do sell Freesat and Freesat HD boxes and some good dishes (usually over priced).

    Realistically DIY sat is possible, but it's much more DIY skill than aerial or light fitting install.


  • #1341
    rlogue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rlogue


    I would probably describe myself as a keen amateur with just enough skill to successfully set up a motorised dish and leave enough margin of error for heavy rain. Certainly Ku band is relatively easy for me to set up even using a cheap meter.

    Obviously the larger the dish the critical it gets regarding positioning. So far how large will the "typical" dish need to be in Dublin and North Donegal?


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  • #1342
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Unofficially Officially 65cm for anywhere in Ireland. Which is about as hard to align as 90cm to110cm Ku. Because the dish gain (i.e. beam angle smaller) is quadrupled when you double the frequency. Ka dish has to be pointed nearly twice as accurately.

    Possibly less if they keep the current parameters. QPSK and FEC 1/2 is VERY robust for DVB-S2.

    Having a proper LNBF and mount will make it much easier.

    In the future the majority of Satellite will be ka band

    up coming ka Band launches
    http://www.lyngsat.com/launches/ka.html

    Astra 2E, Astra 2F and Astra 2G all for 28.2E


  • #1343
    Mr. Rabbit
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭Mr. Rabbit


    Unofficially Officially 65cm for anywhere in Ireland

    I assume that includes Norn' Iron as well as the ROI Watty ?


  • #1344
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    I'd not assume that.


  • #1345
    dbcool
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭dbcool


    would this be the meter of choice for ka sat?

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Acutrac-III-3-Plus-Satellite-Finder-Meter-New-HDTV-/320673554370?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aa9a21fc2


  • #1346
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    I think that meter is for proprietary DirecTv and would be a bad purchase.


    Any meter which displays not just level (nearly useless with modern high output LNBs, especially that have inbuilt AGC) but Eb/No or BER etc for DVB-S2 as well as DVB-S.

    Also very useful is Spectrum analyser for 950MHz to 2100MHz built in.

    The most important aspect is "quality" (BER, Eb/No, SNR etc) on a DVB-S2 signal as well as DVB-S. Ka Band isn't relevant. Diseqc switching feature is important but not mandatory as you can disconnect feed between the Diseqc switch and LNB. Monobloc feeds with internal Diseqc are designed for particular markets and dish models (i.e. Mainland western Europe 23.5 + 19, 19+13 or 13+9 or US DirecTv). Monobloc or Duo feed LNBFs with two horns and internal Diseqc should never be deployed in Ireland. The horn spacing will be wrong.

    There is no difference for Ka or Ku in Europe as the IF frequency bands are the same.

    DirecTV is a proprietary system with non-standard IF.


  • #1347
    rlogue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rlogue


    watty wrote: »
    I'd not assume that.

    Considering Malin Head and much of Inishowen is further north than NI it would be particularly embarrassing if Saorsat didn't actually reach the north of the whole island of Ireland...


  • #1348
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    The beam is at an angle. It's seems much stronger in Donegal than Co.Antrim.

    163140.jpg

    Malin head and all of Donegal appear to be in the service area (which is NOT a sharp boundary).

    Red lines show points at which a Signal with identical parmeters from two different spots are equal. As you move from lines towards Irish spot the unwanted signal is decreasing and wanted signal increasing quickly, so likely Co. Antrim is fine. If the spot is accurate then Overspill to IOM, All Anglesea, West Wales and Cornwall is very nice :)

    North East Antrim coast and South West Cork coast are both just slightly outside the purple area. Maybe need 70cm to 80cm. Or maybe 65cm is fine and inside purple area only needs 44cm. We don't know.

    However the East Scotland spot is now same as Irish and Calais French spot instead of the same as Wales/Cornwall, presumably to allow people in parts of North West England to use Welsh/Cornish or East Scotland spot and also further limit Irish spot Coverage in Scotland and North of England.

    There is no question that a reasonable size dish will work for all of Island of Ireland and smaller dish for Ireland (Republic), though some question about Ballycastle coast area, Co.Antrim area vs East Scotland signal, but likely OK.

    QPSK FEC 1/2 is a very robust signal. I'm curious as to rain margin on 44cm dish or even 30cm in most of Ireland.


  • #1349
    Apogee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    dbcool wrote: »
    would this be the meter of choice for ka sat?

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Acutrac-III-3-Plus-Satellite-Finder-Meter-New-HDTV-/320673554370?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4aa9a21fc2

    No. 'Meter of choice' is entirely dependent on budget - what's your spend limit?


  • #1350
    dbcool
    Registered Users Posts: 78 ✭✭dbcool


    still nothing

    using a prodig 5 - nothing still - i am in mallusk - and i really think i can't get this! - i've gave the lnb to my mate in ballymena and he's gonna try tonight so -we could really do with some more meter pics -we just can't get a loc at all!


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  • #1351
    Apogee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,802 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Are you using the prodig in spectrum mode? You should be able to see the data peaks even if you are out of range for saorsat. Do you see any peaks? If not, your positioning of the lnb is still wrong or else the lnb is busted.


This discussion has been closed.
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