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Feminists

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    #302
    LenaClaire
    Registered Users Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭LenaClaire


    liah wrote: »
    How depressing is that thought though? :(

    I would thank this a hundred times.

    I am not a frequent poster but I think a lot of that has to do with the aggravation of having to prove that there is still sexism in society to some posters. It is not as prevalent as it used to be, by any means, in western society but it is still clinging on and a lot of it now is more subtle which is even more insidious.

    I do not mind debating what improvements can be made or what the problems are with the feminist movement but having to justify your life experiences at every turn is just exhausting.


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    #303
    WesternNight
    Registered Users Posts: 9,286 ✭✭✭WesternNight


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Plus one and why I think it really does look like many women need the protection and /or many men can't stop being twats.

    I don't even think it'd look like we'd need protection, but I just think that keeping certain topics hidden behind closed doors is doing a disservice to the topics themselves that should be discussed in public.

    Discussing things among like-minded people is great, but it would be unlikely to change anything or change peoples' perceptions etc (but maybe I'm wrong to think that that's part of the function of these threads). We'd all be aware of the issues discussed and we'd pretty much just be hashing around stuff we already know...wouldn't we? Maybe we wouldn't, I dunno. I guess I'm just a bit uncomfortable with the idea of sectioning this corner off from the rest.


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    #304
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Plus one and why I think it really does look like many women need the protection and /or many men can't stop being twats.

    See below.
    jujibee wrote: »
    I would thank this a hundred times.

    I am not a frequent poster but I think a lot of that has to do with the aggravation of having to prove that there is still sexism in society to some posters. It is not as prevalent as it used to be, by any means, in western society but it is still clinging on and a lot of it now is more subtle which is even more insidious.

    I do not mind debating what improvements can be made or what the problems are with the feminist movement but having to justify your life experiences at every turn is just exhausting.

    Think of it differently, imagine debating everything in your second paragraph without having to justify it and learning/engaging from that opportunity? Imagine if you can come in to such debates and quote from polls/personal experience of others directly and back up your arguement?


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    #305
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Cards on the table IM? And it goes without saying completely my take. I think the more we hamper actual debate* or god forbid do what Count Duckula suggests and make it some women only forum, it will IMHO look like women need the protection. Almost like kids unable to mix it with the adult(well... :D) men and kept locked away for their own good. Frankly speaking fook that. That really doesn't sit right with me IM. Plus it's utter crap. Ok another angle; currently we fire off fashion and personal issues type threads to their respective 'correct' forums, if we then fire off subjects like this to humanities (or a secret forum**) what's left? Caring/sharing, know your ladies and a "oooh I'd do him" threads? OK obviously overcooking it there, but I'm getting something across of what I mean? :o

    Actually this post nails a lot of it down for me anyway. I can do and understand both, but I need a signpost to spot the diff sometimes. TBH sharing coming up in a debate thread really throws me. It feels odd. Ditto for the reverse. Though TBH again I don't rate sharing so much. That's a failing in me though.

    * I mean non trolly stuff. We're well able to spot tLL specific trolls already, so that's not at issue and we can all report posts we think get missed. It doesn't mean we jump on the confirmation bias train and look for problems were none exist of course. I think and have enough faith in the LL network brain to reckon we're ok on that score.

    *and god are there not enough of them on Boards as it is?

    You still haven't answered the question of why the forum exists & what of the forum charter with respect to being a forum dedicated in the main to female posters discussing issues of interest to female posters...?

    I don't for a second think that threads should be sent to Humanities (and I would hope making tLL made a female only forum would not be necessary if other measures are put in place), I just fail to see the point of threads that are arbitrarily under tLL banner because it gets more traffic than Humanities but have no more reason for falling under tLL "jurisdiction" than any thread in Humanities.

    As things stand, the forum's purpose and the charter that governs the ethos or direction the forum takes is quite explicit - and like any other "speciality" forum those that cannot respect that ethos should not be given the time and opportunity to derail, annoy and chase off the posters that wanted this forum to exist for a reason. IMO, allowing the continuing dismissive heckling, straw-manning and fallacious blustering which push the discussions out-with the remit of tLL and into "every other forum on boards" territory completely defies the point of having a speciality forum.

    If the forum exists because the general demographic of Boards means it is a near impossibility to discuss issues of interest to female posters with other female posters - or it is often made so utterly unpleasant/frustrating/pointless that few female posters bother discussion such issues in other forums on the Site, then it's not so much protecting female posters who cannot "play with the big boys" as giving them a space in which to have discussion and debate with each other - and anyone else - without having to get on the exhausting never-ending treadmill of dismissal, disputation and refutation thrown out by the bucketful, not because those arguments are right, or clever or particularly good - but entirely due to the enormous gender imbalance of poster-ship.


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    #306
    LenaClaire
    Registered Users Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭LenaClaire


    Stheno wrote: »
    Think of it differently, imagine debating everything in your second paragraph without having to justify it and learning/engaging from that opportunity? Imagine if you can come in to such debates and quote from polls/personal experience of others directly and back up your arguement?

    I think where I get stuck is when there is some statistical comment or poll mentioned, and then someone adds a personal anecdote to follow.

    From several threads what happens is that the poll/statistic is ignored or lightly commented on and the personal anecdote gets picked apart with the response of - Well, I have never seen that, ergo it does not happen.

    My favorite was something along the lines of.... maybe he was not sexist, maybe he was just stupid - once again "proving" that there is no sexism anymore.


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    #307
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    jujibee wrote: »
    I think where I get stuck is when there is some statistical comment or poll mentioned, and then someone adds a personal anecdote to follow.

    From several threads what happens is that the poll/statistic is ignored or lightly commented on and the personal anecdote gets picked apart with the response of - Well, I have never seen that, ergo it does not happen.

    My favorite was something along the lines of.... maybe he was not sexist, maybe he was just stupid - once again "proving" that there is no sexism anymore.

    and while not picking on your posts, but as you've been so kind as to post, I would perceive/expect that there would be a fair whack of debating skills developed in the sort of sub forum I am thinking of, just look at this thread and the differences between the mods :) There would be plenty of choice were one to take a certain stance and want to learn how to debate it and diffuse the personal aspect :)


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    #308
    LenaClaire
    Registered Users Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭LenaClaire


    Stheno wrote: »
    and while not picking on your posts, but as you've been so kind as to post, I would perceive/expect that there would be a fair whack of debating skills developed in the sort of sub forum I am thinking of, just look at this thread and the differences between the mods :) There would be plenty of choice were one to take a certain stance and want to learn how to debate it and diffuse the personal aspect :)

    Oh, I fully agree. I think that there are lots of ways of handling it but I think it does scare off newcomers. Maybe we need a thread on debate skills with links to lots of good reading from authorities on sexism in society :D

    It is also just not a tLL or a Boards thing, it is all across every part of the internet and you either need a thick skin, persistence and strong analytical skills or you need to accept the personal digs and keep on trucking.


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    #309
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    WesternNight wrote: »
    I don't even think it'd look like we'd need protection, but I just think that keeping certain topics hidden behind closed doors is doing a disservice to the topics themselves that should be discussed in public.

    Discussing things among like-minded people is great, but it would be unlikely to change anything or change peoples' perceptions etc (but maybe I'm wrong to think that that's part of the function of these threads). We'd all be aware of the issues discussed and we'd pretty much just be hashing around stuff we already know...wouldn't we? Maybe we wouldn't, I dunno. I guess I'm just a bit uncomfortable with the idea of sectioning this corner off from the rest.

    I'd not consider it locking topics behind closed doors, rather I'd allow anyone to view it and see how women argue/debate such issues, then if it goes into the wider domain of the public tlLL they have that background tbh?

    Plus I'd see it as an opportunity for those female posters who want to tease out the subject without the aggression you can get in public threads to do so? And also to pick up debating skills?


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    #310
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    It's not a "us women need to be protected from the big mean men" thing.

    It's a "I'm goddamn sick and tired of people completely missing the focus of the thread and just wanting to WIN and be RIGHT by any means possible and I just can't be arsed pandering to them anymore" thing.


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    #311
    WesternNight
    Registered Users Posts: 9,286 ✭✭✭WesternNight


    Stheno wrote: »
    I'd not consider it locking topics behind closed doors, rather I'd allow anyone to view it and see how women argue/debate such issues, then if it goes into the wider domain of the public tlLL they have that background tbh?

    Plus I'd see it as an opportunity for those female posters who want to tease out the subject without the aggression you can get in public threads to do so? And also to pick up debating skills?

    Maybe so.


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    #312
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    liah wrote: »
    It's not a "us women need to be protected from the big mean men" thing.

    It's a "I'm goddamn sick and tired of people completely missing the focus of the thread and just wanting to WIN and be RIGHT by any means possible and I just can't be arsed pandering to them anymore" thing.

    you forgot "and I'm sick of pandering to them full stop"

    I like my girl geeks out, we talk about an area of tech, so I learn something, we have dinner and talk about anything but tech, and it's fun.

    TLL should be something similiar imo;.


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    #313
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    I've read this thread from start to finish.
    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    In fairness, over 20 pages of this thread it only started to degenerate into any kind of "them vs us" style debate towards the very end, and even then it's pretty mild stuff. There is more talk around the act itself than there is evidence of said act.

    Nope, started around page 6 (out of the 21 that show in my settings):
    If feminism is about equality, then it should be equally concerned with the situation men find themselves in.

    I have no idea why feminists are assumed to be completely unconcerned with human rights in general but it's a common misconception.
    Logical Fallacy wrote: »
    it only started to degenerate into any kind of "them vs us" style debate towards the very end

    Or that style of debate ended the thread maybe. We have no idea how this thread would have ended and it's so far off topic now, we never will.
    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    As a male who rarely posts in here, I think last night was probably my first time, the above is not very welcoming. And not to further derail a thread. Would you rather men did not participate?

    Mickey, you were made to feel nothing but welcome on this thread, despite the fact that there were plenty of no-nos in your posts. You open with a joke about getting rid of bras, admit that you haven't read the thread, go on to point out several times how men have problems too and finish with:
    Micky Dolenz wrote: »
    I am not here to defend my profession or my gender. But just to point out that gender discrimination happens all around us and not just against women.

    No-one is seriously suggesting that men shouldn't be made to feel welcome here but I think only people who post/read here regularly have any concept of how quickly and consistently threads are dragged (kicking and screaming) off track.
    Sharrow wrote: »
    One of the more intresting threads which have ran on the forum was about sexual harassment and it was women sharing some of their experiences, which were not picked apart. While it was sad to see that so many of us had such experiences, you could see posters gaining strength and support from others in the thread.

    That sort of sharing highlights the issue, lets women know they are not alone and makes them more likely to speak up if it happens to them or happens again.

    I think the main reason that thread was not picked apart was because a woman opened it with a criticism about the "silent majority of men" which was roundly refuted by the female posters here before it got off the ground.

    The "How to respond to a flasher" thread was immediately de-railed by allegations that the woman in the video was lying and swiftly moved on to a discussion of how women regularly falsely accused men of sexual assault. It was very uncomfortable reading.

    While I'm here I want to say thanks (can't do it as an unreg) to all (men and women) who have contributed constructively to this and other really interesting threads. This is one of the few forums I've book-marked and regularly read ... maybe because I'm a woman but also because the level of discussion here is very high and inclusive.

    Now what the f'ck were we talking about?? :)


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    #314
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,117 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    liah wrote: »
    It's not a "us women need to be protected from the big mean men" thing.

    It's a "I'm goddamn sick and tired of people completely missing the focus of the thread and just wanting to WIN and be RIGHT by any means possible and I just can't be arsed pandering to them anymore" thing.
    Or it can simply be "I couldn't be arsed discussing 'heavy' stuff". I do get you though L. We do not need the same kind of what passed for debate in a certain thread you were involved with outside of here. I would say that in the area of feminism or any other "contentious" debate, you're going to get the same or similar points and responses time and time again. If the site operated on non repetition as a rule we better get DeV to shut the place down. Relationship issues? Leave her/he's cheating/time will heal all wounds/you'll find someone/just ask her out FFS. There I've answered all the questions. Close down the forum. :D

    I dunno. I get the "forum's purpose" part and yes it is a specialty forum. That's grand, but whose specialty? It's been my take that too often the direction of this forum was as times about what we the mods wanted it to reflect, not what the users themselves may have wanted. And what was that? IMHO not just "a place for women to talk with women" but as much "a place for women to talk with women in a way we think worthy". There are more than a few who would look down on the "frivolous" threads in here over the years.

    As to men derailing or debating to win? Yes I agree, that should be modded out, just like trolls are. We need to be even handed too though and the defence of "male opinion that disagrees with mine = derailler" should also be marked down. It's the same as calling troll around here and there are good reasons why we have a rule against that. Otherwise best of luck with the circle jerk and watch how small not bigger that circle gets.

    When we've had this and other debates before, it's interested me how many low level posters, male and female chimed in, then when something did change they were nowhere to be seen.

    At least this time the names are familiar. I'd prefer to hear from more women though, because IMHO a round robin debate between 5 or 6 people shouldn't determine the direction any forum this popular goes.
    Stheno wrote:
    I like my girl geeks out, we talk about an area of tech, so I learn something, we have dinner and talk about anything but tech, and it's fun.
    +1000 This would be the ideal. Bit geeky, with learning but especially the fun part.:)

    Now the question is how? read only women only forum is a thought alright.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #315
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    Wibbs wrote:
    Or it can simply be "I couldn't be arsed discussing 'heavy' stuff".

    Eh? I'm not sure what you mean by that, but I certainly do enjoy and very much can be arsed discussing heavy stuff. I live for it. But I can't abide certain people's.. tactics, if you will. It does nothing to further the actual topic except inflame people or completely drive them out of the argument.

    There's a MASSIVE difference between what I'm talking about and genuine discussion of heavy issues.


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    #316
    Blowfish
    Registered Users Posts: 5,112 ✭✭✭Blowfish


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Now the question is how? read only women only forum is a thought alright.
    Either that or something similar to the soccer access request thingy.


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    #317
    Mallei
    Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭Mallei


    Wibbs, the point I think is that tLL is not the place for "heavy debate". It's a place for women to discuss our shared experiences and learn and make friends through that.

    Having a "heavy debate" about feminism might be interesting and worthwhile (although this thread suggests that it would swiftly just turn into male posters screaming that it no longer exists), but that's for humanities where such topics are meant to be debated.

    A thread on sexual harrassment in tLL should be a thread for us women to discuss our experiences of sexual harrassment and find strength in solidarity, not be forced to defend that we actually had those experiences in the first place. How degrading and depressing it is that the one place the ladies of Boards were led to believe we could discuss things without aggressive male input we are now having to deal with exactly that.

    I personally would welcome men if they wish to share and empathise and contribute positively - but not if they wish to dismiss and refute. There are other forums for that.

    To put it in slightly sillier terms, if you were a huge Leinster fan Wibbs you might often enjoy entering into debates about whether Leinster are the best rugby team in Europe. You'd enjoy the arguments. But at the same time, if there was a subforum specifically dedicated to Leinster fans discussing their team, you'd get pretty pissed off if every second post was from a rival supporter telling you that you're wrong in beliefs.

    If the women of Boards can't discuss the issues that affect us in the very forum that was created for that purpose without being accused of lying or misguided, where can we?


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    #318
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,117 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    liah wrote: »
    Eh? I'm not sure what you mean by that, but I certainly do enjoy and very much can be arsed discussing heavy stuff. I live for it. But I can't abide certain people's.. tactics, if you will. It does nothing to further the actual topic except inflame people or completely drive them out of the argument.

    There's a MASSIVE difference between what I'm talking about and genuine discussion of heavy issues.
    No I didn't mean you in particular L, what I mean is there's a pretty large cohort of users out there who aren't pushed about discussing heavy stuff and may want to avoid "internet serious bizness" type threads.
    Mallei wrote: »
    I personally would welcome men if they wish to share and empathise and contribute positively - but not if they wish to dismiss and refute. There are other forums for that.
    I agree M. I think were we may differ is where does that line of dismissal and refutation lie. I think that may be the harder nut to crack and I'd also say it goes more along gender lines too. Male debate is in general much more combatitive. Too much so at times. Plus it's clear I am coming from a different angle based on that. So yes I do get your points and agree with you.

    To put it in slightly sillier terms, if you were a huge Leinster fan Wibbs you might often enjoy entering into debates about whether Leinster are the best rugby team in Europe. You'd enjoy the arguments. But at the same time, if there was a subforum specifically dedicated to Leinster fans discussing their team, you'd get pretty pissed off if every second post was from a rival supporter telling you that you're wrong in beliefs.
    Funny enough I wouldn't :D I'd be only to happy to point out why and at length why they head their head up their bottoms holding such an opinion. Luckily for the sports forums I can't abide footballism or team sports in general... I do see what you're getting at though.
    If the women of Boards can't discuss the issues that affect us in the very forum that was created for that purpose without being accused of lying or misguided, where can we?
    True enough.

    And if I think ye're talking shíte I'll go off and start a thread in Humanities or for shíts and giggles After Hours. :D

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #319
    Ectoplasm
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭Ectoplasm


    I've read this thread with interest and while I can recognise the frustration that some people feel about having to deal with the same comments/questions again and again whenever feminism is discussed, I have to say I hate the idea of taking the whole forum private or women only.

    To me, questions are good, opposition is good. Different point of views are good. It ensures that I have to think about what my position or stance is. Yes it is frustrating that a lot of the time the same 'rebuttals' rear their head but quite a lot of the time, it is from different posters. Take this thread for examply, Mickey D (sorry to be singling you out!) who had never posted here before came in and asked questions - maybe not everyone appreciated his tone/manner but at the end of the day, I would imagine that he walked away with a better idea of a) what feminism is and b) why there is/maybe still a need for it. How is that not a good thing?

    Sure there are a few posters who have their mind made up with regard to feminism and/or women and who do regularly and actively look to derail a thread. At this point, I ignore them. Likewise with trolling. Both are pretty obvious 99% of the time and I think that the mods here do a pretty excellent job of dealing with it. (is there a suckup icon? ;) )

    What I would like to see is a more discursive or inclusive style of debate, rather than the more combative type which is all too often just about scoring points and winning (never understood this tbh). Maybe something like this could be included in the charter? That it's not a debate forum, it's for discussion? I know this sounds a bit waffly, but taking the forum private seems far too drastic to me.


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    #320
    Mallei
    Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭Mallei


    I'd make two points though, EMF2010.

    1) I'm not entirely sure outright opposition is good in this forum. If it were a thread on the existence of sexism, then true you need both sides of the argument, but then that thread would surely not belong in tLL? Women don't come to tLL to debate whether they're being discriminated against; they come here because they already believe they are being and want to discuss that with other women, for example. In other words, if you want to challenge the existence of something then the thread belongs in one of the debating forums - the purpose of tLL is to give female posters somewhere to discuss things that affect them from their own point of view. We shouldn't need to back up every little assertion we make in the face of aggressive dismissal in this forum.

    2) To continue singling out MickyD, yes he probably left the thread with a better idea of feminism, but in his brief time here he derailed the thread, made some sexist jokes based on bra burning and essentially claimed that we were all more than a little misguided in our beliefs that sexism is still alive and well. If he wanted to learn more about feminism he should have simply read the thread first and pick up on all the point that had already been made. If he wanted to refute feminism then he should have made a post / thread in the appropriate forum. I don't mean to target MickyD particularly, but his name was used in the example - I'm talking generally about all the posters who entered this thread with sole intention of telling the supporters of feminism that they were wrong.


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    #321
    Ectoplasm
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭Ectoplasm


    Mallei wrote: »
    I'd make two points though, EMF2010.

    1) I'm not entirely sure outright opposition is good in this forum. If it were a thread on the existence of sexism, then true you need both sides of the argument, but then that thread would surely not belong in tLL? Women don't come to tLL to debate whether they're being discriminated against; they come here because they already believe they are being and want to discuss that with other women, for example. In other words, if you want to challenge the existence of something then the thread belongs in one of the debating forums - the purpose of tLL is to give female posters somewhere to discuss things that affect them from their own point of view. We shouldn't need to back up every little assertion we make in the face of aggressive dismissal in this forum.

    I see your point to the extent that I do agree that tLL isn't or shouldn't be a debate forum and that was in fact the gist of my post. I disagree about the aggressive dismissal - I don't deny it happens but it is usually modded very quickly and that is good enough for me.

    The idea of not having opposition though is for methe recipe for an incredibly dull forum. Women aren't going to always agree anyway so I can't see how you could do away with it. If it is only male opposition being objected to, well, that's a problem for me.

    Don't get me wrong - I know there are some posters out there who almost seem to have an agenda when they post in tLL but I really think that they are dealt with adequately at the moment.
    Mallei wrote: »
    2) To continue singling out MickyD, yes he probably left the thread with a better idea of feminism, but in his brief time here he derailed the thread, made some sexist jokes based on bra burning and essentially claimed that we were all more than a little misguided in our beliefs that sexism is still alive and well. If he wanted to learn more about feminism he should have simply read the thread first and pick up on all the point that had already been made. If he wanted to refute feminism then he should have made a post / thread in the appropriate forum. I don't mean to target MickyD particularly, but his name was used in the example - I'm talking generally about all the posters who entered this thread with sole intention of telling the supporters of feminism that they were wrong.

    See, this is the thing - I can only see one poster in this thread who had that agenda and their post was modded very quickly. I don't agree that MD had any such agenda. You and others mightn't have liked his posting style but I don't really agree with your summary/reading of his postings.

    All I'm saying really is that the idea of taking tLL private is not for me. If the majority want it that way (and I can see why they might) that's fine. I would prefer that there was an emphasis put on the 'style' of exchange that is acceptable ie. that it's not a place for the kind of point scoring debate seen elsewhere but genuine questions are welcome.

    If it goes private then it wouldn't hold the same appeal for me - but I'm one poster and as I said, I can to an extent see why it would appeal to others.


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    #322
    diddlybit
    Registered Users Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭diddlybit


    I've been following this thread fro a couple of days now and would just let to give a couple of comments. On the whole, I found the thread to be inforamative, balanced and in regards to the derailing, very well-moderated. Much appreciated was the discussion about derailment in relation to the ethos of the forum, as obviously in debate, opposing views are not alwasy derailment, and vice versa.

    I understand liah's frustartion at the approach many people on boards have to their approach to debate, and often the trolls come in, say something offensive and then run away again. It may be of no consequence to them but, it is to me, as twenty minutes later, I'm still seething.

    I'm not sure that "heavy debate" and "sharing" need to be mutually exclusive ideals for this forum. I think that together, combined in a thread they could help to elucidate and expand on people's understanding of their own experiences. I haven't read the thread on "pushy men" (I'm not sure I want to, it's probably very disheartening) but as a very contrived example of what I'm trying to say, immersing experience with theory, could be educational. Pushy men is probably an experience that many women have dealt with on a frequent basis and find extremely distressing and violating. It's great that support can be given through shared experiences but given the frequency of such incidents, it is also necessary to examine why it occurs, why some men find it acceptable and why some women are unsure of how to react to it, conditioned by the response that we are non-aggressive. (This is my anedoctal experience here, I've had many experiences of wishing I'd behaved differently in hindsight.)

    I think if these could be combined in a supportive environment, many more young women would be willing to enage in debate.

    I strongly oppose the moving of debate to somewhere like the Humanities, as I don't think that women who are reluctant to debate on women's issues would find it a supportive enviroment. (This is no criticisation of the moderation there, it just happens to more populated by male posters that have a tunnel-visioned view of women, femininity and gender issues. Not all of course.)

    An example would be a poster on this thread that shipped himself off to that forum, as he wasn't receiving the attention he wanted here. This is the thread in point:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72149028#post72149028

    I'm finding it hard to entertain such an awful comparision between heightism and gender discrimination and the myopic opinions of some of the posters. One of teh respondents said it much more elloquently than I could:

    HivemindXX wrote: »

    Am I correct in saying that the OP doesn't actually care about or believe in "heightism" but is using this as a way of challenging the existence of sexism?


    This form of feminism-attacking tokenism (or we could just call it misogyny) is rife across boards and I think TLL manages to combat it with good and fair moderation.

    That's my two cents. Hope you don't mind. :)


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    #323
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    What I don't understand is why the posters who are repeatedly at the source of these debates aren't just banned. It's clear that their only intention is to be disruptive and/or not learn anything at all at this point, as every single thread they're in ends in the exact same way. What's the point in keeping them around?

    One of them even follows me around to different sites to irritate me. Why pander to them?


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    #324
    Ectoplasm
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭Ectoplasm


    liah wrote: »
    What I don't understand is why the posters who are repeatedly at the source of these debates aren't just banned. It's clear that their only intention is to be disruptive and/or not learn anything at all at this point, as every single thread they're in ends in the exact same way. What's the point in keeping them around?

    One of them even follows me around to different sites to irritate me. Why pander to them?

    Actually, that might be a solution? Some sort of three strikes and you're out rule? Where it is clear that a particular posters agenda is only to 'prove' that feminism/egalitarianism is not necessary and repeatedly drags threads OT in their effort to make this point they get warned and as I said, three warnings = permaban.

    I'm not talking about posters who ask questions or offer genuine alternative viewpoints here, I mean the ones (and there are a couple I can think of) who have a real agenda of dismissing any suggestion that feminism/egalitarianism has a place in modern society.


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    #325
    liah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭liah


    Exactly. I have no problem at all dealing with genuine questions or new posters who don't get how things work yet. But it is very clearly the same.. maybe 2-3 posters at the core of it, every single time. There's no way the mods haven't noticed this trend, surely they must know who I'm talking about. I'm sure any regular reading this does. And these aren't newbie posters, either - they've been here for a long while now.

    The thing is, they skirt the rules so efficiently that they aren't technically breaking any and will probably throw a shitfit if they get banned.


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    #326
    Blowfish
    Registered Users Posts: 5,112 ✭✭✭Blowfish


    Mallei wrote: »
    I'm not entirely sure outright opposition is good in this forum. If it were a thread on the existence of sexism, then true you need both sides of the argument, but then that thread would surely not belong in tLL? Women don't come to tLL to debate whether they're being discriminated against; they come here because they already believe they are being and want to discuss that with other women, for example. In other words, if you want to challenge the existence of something then the thread belongs in one of the debating forums - the purpose of tLL is to give female posters somewhere to discuss things that affect them from their own point of view. We shouldn't need to back up every little assertion we make in the face of aggressive dismissal in this forum.
    I fully agree with you that discussion should be allowed to be just that, a discusion.

    The one thing to note in this instance though is that the opening post on this thread is actually aimed at starting a debate based on two different views, rather than starting a general discussion on the topic. Granted it was a very weak premise for a debate, but it does bring up the question of whether threads be focusing solely on discussion if a debate is actually what the OP wanted.


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    #327
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    I'm not sure if what the OP wants is the most important thing here - surely the ethos of the forum being maintained is the most important thing? If someone wants a gloves-off, raging debate with any and all posters and their perspectives on an issue we have the Humanities forum, if someone wants a discussion and want to be assured it will be respectful to the christian faith then we have the christianity forum, if people want a light-hearted discussion then we have AH - if posters choose to post in tLL then there is no reason why it cannot be assumed that they do so with one eye on the charter and the ethos of this forum in mind - if they wish a discussion better suited to another forum, then they can post there.

    The OP has admitted on this very thread that they posted here because it gets more traffic - that isn't a good enough reason to have a humanities debate in tLL, imo.


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    #328
    Blowfish
    Registered Users Posts: 5,112 ✭✭✭Blowfish


    Ickle Magoo wrote: »
    I'm not sure if what the OP wants is the most important thing here - surely the ethos of the forum being maintained is the most important thing? If someone wants a gloves-off, raging debate with any and all posters and their perspectives on an issue we have the Humanities forum, if someone wants a discussion and want to be assured it will be respectful to the christian faith then we have the christianity forum, if people want a light-hearted discussion then we have AH - if posters choose to post in tLL then there is no reason why it cannot be assumed that they do so with one eye on the charter and the ethos of this forum in mind - if they wish a discussion better suited to another forum, then they can post there.
    Perhaps my referencing the OP of this particular thread wasn't the greatest example. I was primarily disagreeing with the application of this bit of Mallei's post to the general context:
    Mallei wrote:
    I'm not entirely sure outright opposition is good in this forum.
    A better example of why I would disagree with it would probably be the Cosmetic Surgery thread not far below this one. Technically it's a debate thread which has both supporters and outright opposition and could also be hosted in humanities, yet I don't see it violating the ethos of the forum at all. If it was limited to a discussion of one side of the debate, I think it'd lose a lot.
    Ickle Magoo wrote:
    The OP has admitted on this very thread that they posted here because it gets more traffic - that isn't a good enough reason to have a humanities debate in tLL, imo.
    True.


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    #329
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Blowfish wrote: »
    Technically it's a debate thread which has both supporters and outright opposition and could also be hosted in humanities, yet I don't see it violating the ethos of the forum at all. If it was limited to a discussion of one side of the debate, I think it'd lose a lot...

    I, personally, don't agree with disallowing opposing sides to develop or discuss in a debate either - but I would add the proviso that in order to have such a debate in tLL it should A) be relevant/of interest to the ladies who post here and B) all posts/posters contained within be mindful and respect the primary purpose and charter of the forum...for me, that should be the difference between posting here and posting in Humanities - not that forthright discussion is allowed in one and quashed in the other. :cool:


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    #330
    panda100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,551 ✭✭✭panda100


    Why can't a thread on feminism ever end in happiness and rejoicing!


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  • Options
    #331
    Ms.Odgeynist
    Registered Users Posts: 170 ✭✭Ms.Odgeynist


    Sharrow wrote: »
    It is good that fathers are now in many cases taking on more of the responsibility and hands on care of their children. My Dad did but that was 35 years ago when he shocked my grandmother and my aunts by changing my nappy(terry cloth, sharp nappy pin and all) while my mother was sick instead of handing me over to one of them.

    There are Dad's who know how hard it is to be at home with little ones and do give their partners a break and give a hand with the house work instead of expecting it all to just get done, but as wonderful as these men are, I don't think they are in the majority yet.

    Been away from the thread for a while. Just back and read this.
    Sharrow, while you do make some very good points, this drivel is beneath even you. Its the most poisonous tripe that ever enters these debates and, as you like to say, 'often slips in under the radar'. Its just thrash, and doesn't belong in any intelligent debate. The only sensible retort to this is that the only reason men weren't particularly active as 'dads' for so long, was because they were out doing tough, important, challenging, pioneering, intellectual, physically demanding, gruelling, nation building, city-creating, globe-spanning jobs. Now that most of that is handled, we can return to the homestead, and let the little lassies have a few hours down the bank with their friends - balancing up, so to speak!

    Generalisations are meaningless. You know this. There are as many delinquent mothers out there as there are delinquent fathers. Being in attendance does not equal parenting!


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