Why is heightism given vastly less attention than feminism in the developed world?

Scanlas The 2nd · 10-05-2011 01:56PM #1

http://www.livescience.com/5552-taller-people-earn-money.html

Take a read. Height discrimination is on a par with feminism yet it receives virtually no media coverage in comparison to feminism.

What is the reason for this?

Why is our society so preoccupied with gender discrimination ahead of other forms of discrimination? Remember this isn't Sauid Arabia.

I think it basically comes down to ego, people identify with gender so even minor occurences of gender discrimination angers them, both male and female. Many of these people I believe will proclaim the importance of equality when in fact it is their ego that is important to them. If equality were so important to these people surely heightism would be on their radar.

Heightism is so devoid of identity to people it is seen as laughable because it has no relevance to their ego.

diddlybit · 10-05-2011 02:27PM

:rolleyes: Is there a Napolean complex at work here?

Scanlas The 2nd · 10-05-2011 02:37PM

Napoleon was actually around average height for his day I believe.

As for me, I'm 5'10. I don't really care about heightism but I find it interesting that people who claim to exalt equality don't appear to care about heightism. I believe it highlights their bullsh!t. Though I don't want to generalise, I'm sure there are many people who actually really care about equality more than simply their own interests and egos.

I should highlight the fact that I'm this is only relevant to the first world where our equality problems are luxuries compared to the third world.

Count Duckula · 10-05-2011 02:52PM

diddlybit wrote: »

:rolleyes: Is there a Napolean complex at work here?

Because to highlight an issue someone must be being unreasonable and/or slighted.

10-05-2011 03:00PM

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Take a read. Height discrimination is on a par with feminism

That's quite a leap to make. Are short people making less money because other people are discriminating against them, or because, for example, they're less likely to be confident? Correlation doesn't imply causation. There's also research that suggests taller people tend to be more intelligent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Height_and_intelligence)

It's something that should be looked at. There should be studies, research, it should be investigated. I've never heard, first-hand or otherwise, of an incident where someone suffered discrimination because of their height. On the other hand, I personally know of several incidents where women suffered discrimination because of their gender

godspal · 10-05-2011 03:12PM

First off this is absurd. You can't say that just because someone has, what society considers, a positive attribute, and therefore excel because of this positive attribute, that they are being positively discriminated against.
I think there are two reasons why tall people excel in jobs; because people are more likely to talk to them and therefore they build confidence. And secondly we instintively promote people who we think have good genes to roles of authority.

After that, you clearly have no idea what its like to be tall. I am 6'7. And from about 10-18 I spent a lot of time fighting. Not because I was aggressive, because any person who was small or had a point to prove would pick me and try to prove their metal.
Now that I am an adult I spend a lot of my time getting harrassed by people when I go out for the night, thinking its okay to make fun of, to think its okay to insult me, and every conversation I have with a new person starts with how tall I am. Its irritating. But I can deal with, its made grow a thick skin.

So after that lesson i hope you have grown up a bit (either in height or maturity, I don't really care) because you clearly don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Scanlas The 2nd · 10-05-2011 03:29PM

28064212 wrote: »

That's quite a leap to make. Are short people making less money because other people are discriminating against them, or because, for example, they're less likely to be confident? Correlation doesn't imply causation. There's also research that suggests taller people tend to be more intelligent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Height_and_intelligence)

It's something that should be looked at. There should be studies, research, it should be investigated. I've never heard, first-hand or otherwise, of an incident where someone suffered discrimination because of their height. On the other hand, I personally know of several incidents where women suffered discrimination because of their gender

At last the penny drops. Now isn't it just possible women earn less through their own behavours rather than just because they are women.

Likewise there is also research that suggests men are more intelligent than women.

diddlybit · 10-05-2011 03:39PM

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Likewise there is also research that suggests men are more intelligent than women.

Please substanciate this with some evidence.

I find your comparison of feminism with heightism myopic. There is no simple answer for the oppression of half the world's population.

There is for height discrimination. They are called stacked heels.

10-05-2011 03:40PM

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

At last the penny drops. Now isn't it just possible women earn less through their own behavours rather than just because they are women.

Likewise there is also research that suggests men are more intelligent than women.

You missed the entire point of my post. Your claim is that because there is a difference, short people must be discriminated against. I'm saying further research is needed to find out if discrimination is actually happening.

For gender, we know discrimination exists. The extent is up for debate, but it definitely exists. There are hundreds of examples where women are discriminated against because they are women, not to mention historical stuff like suffrage.

Have you ever heard, first-hand or otherwise, of an incident where someone suffered discrimination because of their height? I haven't

Scanlas The 2nd · 10-05-2011 03:49PM

diddlybit wrote: »

Please substanciate this with some evidence.

I find your comparison of feminism with heightism myopic. There is no simple answer for the oppression of half the world's population.

There is for height discrimination. They are called stacked heels.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/higher/dr-paul-irwing-there-are-twice-as-many-men-as-women-with-an-iq-of-120plus-426321.html

Tall people are respected on average more than short people. I think you know that it the truth.

Remember I'm discussing gender discrimination in the developed modern world.

Scanlas The 2nd · 10-05-2011 03:51PM

28064212 wrote: »

You missed the entire point of my post. Your claim is that because there is a difference, short people must be discriminated against. I'm saying further research is needed to find out if discrimination is actually happening.

For gender, we know discrimination exists. The extent is up for debate, but it definitely exists. There are hundreds of examples where women are discriminated against because they are women, not to mention historical stuff like suffrage.

Have you ever heard, first-hand or otherwise, of an incident where someone suffered discrimination because of their height? I haven't

I'm talking about modern developed world gender discrimination where it isn't that big of a deal. Gender discrimination was much worse than height discrimination throughout history and in poor countries.

10-05-2011 03:56PM

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

I'm talking about modern developed world gender discrimination where it isn't that big of a deal. Gender discrimination was much worse than height discrimination throughout history and in poor countries.

Gender discrimination is still quite a big deal. "A woman's place is in the home" is far from an unusual opinion to hold. Many men will not hire a woman for an advanced position on the basis of their gender. Many women do suffer for no other reason than their gender.

Have you ever heard, first-hand or otherwise, of an incident where someone suffered discrimination because of their height?

Scanlas The 2nd · 10-05-2011 04:00PM

28064212 wrote: »

Gender discrimination is still quite a big deal. "A woman's place is in the home" is far from an unusual opinion to hold. Many men will not hire a woman for an advanced position on the basis of their gender. Many women do suffer for no other reason than their gender.

Have you ever heard, first-hand or otherwise, of an incident where someone suffered discrimination because of their height?

I've neither heard first hand of someone suffering discrimination because of their height or their gender.

That stats cleary show similar levels of discrimination in terms of wages, yet we hear a running update of the percentage differential in women's wages yet not a word is said about short people's wages. The correlation isn't causation rebuttal applies to both scenarios.

10-05-2011 04:18PM

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

I've neither heard first hand of someone suffering discrimination because of their height or their gender.

But you have heard it from other sources for gender? I've heard it both first-hand and from other sources for gender. I've never heard anyone suggest that their height was the reason they didn't get a job or a promotion. I've never seen an "old tall-ies club" mentality (as opposed to old boys clubs, which are common). There is a huge body of evidence that shows direct discrimination does occur on the basis of gender

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

That stats cleary show similar levels of discrimination in terms of wages, yet we hear a running update of the percentage differential in women's wages yet not a word is said about short people's wages. The correlation isn't causation rebuttal applies to both scenarios.

The stats do not show that. The stats show similar levels of difference in terms of wages, the stats do not put forward any reason for the difference. Evidence shows that women are discriminated against, so it's sensible to postulate that it is one of the reasons for the wage difference. AFAIK, there is no evidence that says short people are discriminated against.

Scanlas The 2nd · 10-05-2011 05:02PM

28064212 wrote: »

But you have heard it from other sources for gender? I've heard it both first-hand and from other sources for gender. I've never heard anyone suggest that their height was the reason they didn't get a job or a promotion. I've never seen an "old tall-ies club" mentality (as opposed to old boys clubs, which are common). There is a huge body of evidence that shows direct discrimination does occur on the basis of gender

The stats do not show that. The stats show similar levels of difference in terms of wages, the stats do not put forward any reason for the difference. Evidence shows that women are discriminated against, so it's sensible to postulate that it is one of the reasons for the wage difference. AFAIK, there is no evidence that says short people are discriminated against.

Likewise the stats don't show a reason for gender difference.Women could be paid less because they are shorter for all we know.

10-05-2011 05:07PM

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Likewise the stats don't show a reason for gender difference

Which is exactly what I said.

You're ignoring the part about the huge body of evidence that women are discriminated against because of their gender. There is no such body of evidence for height discrimination

southsiderosie · 11-05-2011 01:03AM

I would want to see the methodology of these studies before jumping to any conclusions. Unless they are controlling for factors such as childhood poverty (which could stunt both physical growth and cognitive development which would in turn affect future employment prospects), participation in sports (which can build confidence and personal networks), and other mitigating issues, I'm not sure that height is doing all of the explanatory work here.

Zombrex · 11-05-2011 01:08AM

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Why is our society so preoccupied with gender discrimination ahead of other forms of discrimination? Remember this isn't Sauid Arabia.
...
Many of these people I believe will proclaim the importance of equality when in fact it is their ego that is important to them.

By "these people" you mean women?

I think you answered your own question there....

Bottle_of_Smoke · 11-05-2011 02:15AM

I reckon its because people don't realise they are being discriminated against over their height. And the people discriminating don't realise either.

Though its a very good point. Feminists(as well as anti-racists and other groups) often cite statistical difference in pay/success as evidence of discrimination and assume gender is a causal factor without looking at any other factors.

Scanlas The 2nd · 11-05-2011 08:33AM

southsiderosie wrote: »

I would want to see the methodology of these studies before jumping to any conclusions. Unless they are controlling for factors such as childhood poverty (which could stunt both physical growth and cognitive development which would in turn affect future employment prospects), participation in sports (which can build confidence and personal networks), and other mitigating issues, I'm not sure that height is doing all of the explanatory work here.

I read somewhere in a study (I'll try find it again) that there is a strong correlation with height with intelligence and that is one of the reasons men are on avearge more intelligent than women. The study did point out though that an x height woman is on average more intelligent than an x height man though.

I think feminism is given much more attention than heightism for example in the developed world for two main reasons, the first being that it used to be a huge problem and the culture has given it momentum even when no big problem exists like decades ago. Secondly I think it's given so much attention because men and women tend to identify very strongly with their gender so they are very sensitve to any implication that men or women are inferior.

Scanlas The 2nd · 11-05-2011 08:36AM

Wicknight wrote: »

By "these people" you mean women?

I think you answered your own question there....

Any section of society which exalts equality but coincidentally only defends the section of society that they belong to.

11-05-2011 08:36AM

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

I read somewhere in a study (I'll try find it again) that there is a strong correlation with height with intelligence

This is already addressed in her quote:

Unless they are controlling for factors such as childhood poverty (which could stunt both physical growth and cognitive development which would in turn affect future employment prospects)

Count Duckula · 11-05-2011 08:45AM

diddlybit wrote: »

There is for height discrimination. They are called stacked heels.

If it was suggested that a woman should try to overcome gender discrimination by being more masculine and concealing her femininity, the person who suggested it would be torn apart.

And yet it's alright to suggest that short people disguise themselves as tall people rather than be honest about their height?

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Likewise there is also research that suggests men are more intelligent than women.

I have never in my life seen any research claiming that. I have, however, seen plenty of research - not least leaving cert and degree scores from the past ten years - which suggests that women are the most intelligent (and sometimes by some considerable margin).

Sexist discrimination has nothing to do with women being genetically inferior nor with them being more stupid. Height discrimination does seem to have at least some basis in genetics, however, though I'm sure more research is needed.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 11-05-2011 09:49AM

Count Duckula wrote: »

Sexist discrimination has nothing to do with women being genetically inferior nor with them being more stupid. Height discrimination does seem to have at least some basis in genetics, however, though I'm sure more research is needed.

Going down a dangerous path with genetics there. Maybe intelligence doesn't have any genetic basis, but what if traits like leadership or charisma did? Would it then be fair to discriminate against one of the genders for management jobs?

Count Duckula · 11-05-2011 09:55AM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Going down a dangerous path with genetics there. Maybe intelligence doesn't have any genetic basis, but what if traits like leadership or charisma did? Would it then be fair to discriminate against one of the genders for management jobs?

Not at all, because I never suggested we screen for those talents. I'm merely saying that tall people tend to be more intelligent. This means they do better in exams and get better jobs. They're not being chosen for those jobs because they're tall; they're being chosen because they're more intelligent. That just happens to coincide with their height - does that make society heightist, or is it simply allowing more intelligent people (who might happen to be taller) to do better?

There is no such disparity with gender, and yet women are held back. You can't point to secondary characteristics such as intelligence or management skill and use that as the basis for the discrimination. Women aren't held back by coincidence just because they happen to be less able in a skill that employers hire for. Thus we must draw the conclusion that, unlike heightism, women are being discriminated against simply for being women.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 11-05-2011 10:19AM

Count Duckula wrote: »

Not at all, because I never suggested we screen for those talents. I'm merely saying that tall people tend to be more intelligent. This means they do better in exams and get better jobs. They're not being chosen for those jobs because they're tall; they're being chosen because they're more intelligent. That just happens to coincide with their height - does that make society heightist, or is it simply allowing more intelligent people (who might happen to be taller) to do better?

The article suggests it isn't that. More that people associate leadership with tall people.

There is no such disparity with gender, and yet women are held back. You can't point to secondary characteristics such as intelligence or management skill and use that as the basis for the discrimination. Women aren't held back by coincidence just because they happen to be less able in a skill that employers hire for. Thus we must draw the conclusion that, unlike heightism, women are being discriminated against simply for being women.

Sidestepping the point here. If there was a peer reviewed study showing one gender tended to be more charismatic or had better leaders would it then be acceptable to discriminate in their favour?

Also I do not accept women are held back at all.

HivemindXX · 11-05-2011 10:23AM

I've never heard anyone say they couldn't work for someone short, I've heard people say they couldn't work for a woman.

I've never heard anyone say that anyone under 6' just isn't physically capable of doing the job, I've heard people say a woman just isn't physically capable of doing the job.

I've never worked anywhere where there were email groups set up to organise nights out that excluded short people but I have worked places where women were excluded in this way.

Am I correct in saying that the OP doesn't actually care about or believe in "heightism" but is using this as a way of challenging the existence of sexism?

Annasopra · 11-05-2011 10:32AM

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

Height discrimination is on a par with feminism

Is it? I don't see any correlation whatsoever. One is a social movement that promotes and campaigns for women's rights. The other is discrimination against someone on the basis of their height. Perhaps you got confused and meant to say discrimination against women

bryaner · 11-05-2011 10:41AM

godspal wrote: »

First off this is absurd. You can't say that just because someone has, what society considers, a positive attribute, and therefore excel because of this positive attribute, that they are being positively discriminated against.
I think there are two reasons why tall people excel in jobs; because people are more likely to talk to them and therefore they build confidence. And secondly we instintively promote people who we think have good genes to roles of authority.

After that, you clearly have no idea what its like to be tall. I am 6'7. And from about 10-18 I spent a lot of time fighting. Not because I was aggressive, because any person who was small or had a point to prove would pick me and try to prove their metal.
Now that I am an adult I spend a lot of my time getting harrassed by people when I go out for the night, thinking its okay to make fun of, to think its okay to insult me, and every conversation I have with a new person starts with how tall I am. Its irritating. But I can deal with, its made grow a thick skin.

So after that lesson i hope you have grown up a bit (either in height or maturity, I don't really care) because you clearly don't have a clue what you are talking about.

I must agree with you, I'm not tall by any manner or mean but I have some very tall mates, and what I've noticed on many nights out is that when the local wannabe hard shaw comes on the scene who does he normally try to start on?

Yes the big lads, it seems like it's a medal of honor for this type of numpty to try and start on the big lads, and it has become a bit of a hindrance for my very tall mates.

Annasopra · 11-05-2011 10:42AM

HivemindXX wrote: »

Am I correct in saying that the OP doesn't actually care about or believe in "heightism" but is using this as a way of challenging the existence of sexism?

Pretty much yeah - he is trying to create false problems for feminists and egalitarian. There'll probably be more threads on discrimination against red haired people and bald people and left handed people soon enough

3DataModem · 11-05-2011 10:46AM

diddlybit wrote: »

:rolleyes: Is there a Napolean complex at work here?

Napoleon was above average height.

Why is heightism given vastly less attention than feminism in the developed world?

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