Feminists

TaraFoxglove

Stheno wrote: »

You can take my one about people assuming I was my principle consultants PA, when told I was the senior consultant in the practice, the response in that case was their jaw dropping, that sort of attitude could really get you down if you let it.

This reminds me of that scene from 'Father Ted' where Ted, Dougal AND Mrs. Doyle refuse to believe that the woman is a solicitor, never mind the senior partner in the practice.

Sorry for going OT.

Micky Dolenz

Stheno wrote: »

There was an interesting article a few years ago about how the average salary of a female CEO of a charity/not for profit was paid significantly less than the average male CEO of the same industry sector which looked at this issue quite closely and examined the cause. I can *try* and dig it out for you if you are interested.

Is it only in that industry it was noticed?

I would think the majority of jobs in Ireland are paid for the position and not the gender.

Stheno wrote: »

Then there is also the pregnancy/maternity leave that impacts women in terms of experience. Your average woman who has 2-3 children is going to have missed approx. 2.5 - 3 years of professional experience compared to a male colleague with the same skills and so cannot command the same salary. I experienced an attitude when I was interviewed once, and the interviewer took note of the fact that I lived far away, I was married (at the time) and started his interview by stating, "You're married, you live in x, more than 50 miles from y, you obviously have children, how do you balance your work and family commitments?" My response was simply that I didn't have children, and I'd worked in y whilst living in x for 8 years. I got offered the job, explained reasonably to their HR manager why I wasn't taking it (His attitude) and moved on.

This is very interesting and maybe a big enough problem in Ireland among small business when deciding on employees. I'll never forget a comment from a Troy MP years ago he said "Any small to medium business would be crazy to hire a woman of child bearing age". With good management it should not be a problem. A women working for our company pretty much worked all her pregnancy and maternity from home. To be honest we would be lost without her.

Stheno wrote: »

My dad did all the cooking in my house and passed it on to us all We all had to do chores, thankfully I've a big family


There are a lot of studies done that show that women do significantly more work around the house than their male partners regardless of professional status, I think a few have been posted in this thread, have a read back and if you can't find them I'll again try and post one for you.

Again, I believe that this is down to a cultural thing, this culture may be sexist but I don't think it is intended to be.

Stheno wrote: »

Lack of equal parenting rights impact both men and women in this country, men in terms of access to their children if they do not have a stable relationship with the mother, women in terms of access to working equality due to men not being allowed take paternity leave. Our constitution still enshrines the right of the woman to be in the home etc.

Schools don't always offer the same curriculum choice for students, especially if they are single gender. I've had clients when I worked as a consultant in previous roles ask my male senior if I was his PA, there is a lot of attitudinal based ways of thinking that need to be challenged still imo

I agree that family law is very uneven in this country, with many fathers having zero rights to their own children. Men's Paternity leave is also an issue along with affordable childcare which excludes a lot of parents, both male and female, from the work force.

I never experienced the gender discrimination in school. There was a girl in my Mech drawing class and I was the only boy in Home Mac :P

Stheno wrote: »

Does that shed any light for you?

Yes it does. Thank you

Stheno

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

This reminds me of that scene from 'Father Ted' where Ted, Dougal AND Mrs. Doyle refuse to believe that the woman is a solicitor, never mind the senior partner in the practice.

Sorry for going OT.

You've kinda described it in one, one particular bloke was lovely to me, then started stuttering when my older male boss told him I'd be the lead

I'd another client in the not too distant past, who in meetings with others called me her, or she all of the time. Eventually one of his male colleagues flipped altogether and gave him a lecture.

Stheno

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Is it only in that industry it was noticed?

I would think the majority of jobs in Ireland are paid for the position and not the gender.

It's the only study that I am aware of that took a particular role/profession and did a gender based analysis on renumeration.

This is very interesting and maybe a big enough problem in Ireland among small business when deciding on employees. I'll never forget a comment from a Troy MP years ago he said "Any small to medium business would be crazy to hire a woman of child bearing age". With good management it should not be a problem. A women working for our company pretty much worked all her pregnancy and maternity from home. To be honest we would be lost without her.

It could have been a problem where I work, 10% of the workforce (all male) became new fathers over a four month period. If they were female, the company would have expected to lose them all for nine months!

Again, I believe that this is down to a cultural thing, this culture may be sexist but I don't think it is intended to be.

Perhaps not, but it doesn't help women who need to come home and share household duties, and may need to work/study in the evenings, one study I've seen showed that men were more likely to study in the evenings while working.

I agree that family law is very uneven in this country, with many fathers having zero rights to their own children. Men's Paternity leave is also an issue along with affordable childcare which excludes a lot of parents, both male and female, from the work force.

Agreed, I like the Swedish model for both which insists upon men taking 3 months paternity leave, and provides good childcare, but hey that will increase our taxes

I never experienced the gender discrimination in school. There was a girl in my Mech drawing class and I was the only boy in Home Mac :P

I was blessed in school, the convent I was in, worked with the CBS and the tech, to maximise the curriculum choice to students. Hence I did maths in the CBS, English in the tech, the CBS came down to the convent for chemistry and economics, and convent physics students did so in the CBS.

Quite innovative in the late 80's/90s

Yes it does. Thank you

You're welcome

Wibbs

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Can you give me examples please?

It's generally very subtle MD, or at least it is if you're used to it. On both "sides" of gender. If you're a man or a woman, ones experience as a label is like background noise and one gets used to it, so long as it doesn't go extreme. Like working in a bell factory, after a while you don't hear the bells.

OK obvious example: we're blokes, so we don't really get the level of sexual judgement or attention the average woman gets on a daily basis. We really don't M. Not unless one of us is George Clooney and I know it's not me so... The average "plain Jane" woman at 25 has had more of that attention and judgement in a month than an average 25 year old bloke has in his life. Yet most guys will go "huh?", hell most women will go "huh?" as they just see it as normal.

It's not just about discrimination, but more about perception. Perception that informs positive or negative discrimination along gender lines. Oh yea men are prone to that too and no mistake(silly boys/fathers rights etc), but since we are were we are, we are talking about women. And within many businesses the subtle and sometimes overt perception of women is often negative. It doesn't have to be really negative or obvious. The subtle stuff is usually more effective. If I really want to hurt someone, I'm never overt, subtle fúcks with people so much better. Why? Because it makes them think it's their fault.

MD it's weird if you step back, quieten yourself and observe. It's amazing the stuff that pops out, stuff that's real obvious that you may miss in the translation. I remember watching an experiment in the US. Where they got this preppy white bloke and basically dressed him up in blackface and let him loose in the local mall. An hour previously as white boy he was fine, an hour later as black boy he got an entirely different perception of the mall.

TaraFoxglove

Wibbs wrote: »

I remember watching an experiment in the US. Where they got this preppy white bloke and basically dressed him up in blackface and let him loose in the local mall. An hour previously as white boy he was fine, an hour later as black boy he got an entirely different perception of the mall.

Er, would that not just be because it would be REALLY obvious he was just painted black? I've seen people try to masquerade as a different ethnicity through make-up before in various places, it always looks off. Really, really fake. Doesn't seem like it would be very accurate to me. Seems more likely people will just be reacting to the weird, blacked up dude more than anything else.

Stheno

Wibbs wrote: »

It's generally very subtle MD, or at least it is if you're used to it. On both "sides" of gender.


MD it's weird if you step back, quieten yourself and observe. It's amazing the stuff that pops out, stuff that's real obvious that you may miss in the translation. I remember watching an experiment in the US. Where they got this preppy white bloke and basically dressed him up in blackface and let him loose in the local mall. An hour previously as white boy he was fine, an hour later as black boy he got an entirely different perception of the mall.

I'd this recently at a rugby match with colleagues and others who were invited. I was the only woman, and one invitee started talking in a very blatant male fashion about the scandal with the soccer players and their injunctions and the woman involved.

tbh, I'm used to it and took no more notice than normal, until an older member of the group objected on the basis that I was there. The younger blokes response was "I thought she was one of the lads as she was there with us at the match!"

WesternNight

Wibbs wrote: »

If I really want to hurt someone, I'm never overt, subtle fúcks with people so much better. Why? Because it makes them think it's their fault.

And also, subtlety means that while generally the target(s) is aware of the truth behind said subtlety, the rest don't see it and if they react it ends up looking like they're looking for reasons to be offended. Which is what's suggested time and time again in discussions like this. That's probably the most frustrating thing about it for me.

Micky Dolenz

Stheno wrote: »

I'd this recently at a rugby match with colleagues and others who were invited. I was the only woman, and one invitee started talking in a very blatant male fashion about the scandal with the soccer players and their injunctions and the woman involved.

tbh, I'm used to it and took no more notice than normal, until an older member of the group objected on the basis that I was there. The younger blokes response was "I thought she was one of the lads as she was there with us at the match!"

To be fair the same may apply to a lone guy in a group of women.

Wibbs

TaraFoxglove wrote: »

Er, would that not just be because it would be REALLY obvious he was just painted black? I've seen people try to masquerade as a different ethnicity through make-up before in various places, it always looks off. Really, really fake. Doesn't seem like it would be very accurate to me.

We're not talking Al Jolsen/B&W minstrel show here T, it was actually a good job. To me he looked more dark sub continental Asian, but not white anyway.

Another example of worldview and perceptions; black people are much more erudite in written correspondence if they think they're writing to a white person rather than another black person.

Stheno

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

To be fair the same may apply to a lone guy in a group of women.

True, the content of the conversation was fairly blatantly male.
Goes backs to Wibbs point that both genders engage in such behaviour

TaraFoxglove

Wibbs wrote: »

We're not talking Al Jolsen/B&W minstrel show here T, it was actually a good job. To me he looked more dark sub continental Asian, but not white anyway.

I wasn't talking Al Jolson-style either, I was talking very professional jobbies, and they still looked completely fake. Dubious experiment, IMO.

But I agree, black people have to work a hell of a lot harder to get taken seriously in life, I know this from people I know in my own life.

Morag

They have done such experiments with gender, sending a woman into a hardware store and the reception reaction and then the same women dressed and presenting as a man going in and the different in the reception and reaction.

Fairly common on is assuming women know things about cars and that men do.
Plenty of women have posted in the forum about going to look at cars, or to have cars serviced or fixed and been talked over if they have a guy with them or it being assumed they haven't a clue or in case saying what was wrong was very 'techincal' and should they ring her husband to explain or refusing for to let her car which she owns be submitted for work done with out her husband approval due to the cost.

Ickle Magoo

We were buying a car and the salesman insisted on speaking directly to my husband - even though I was the one asking the technical questions and my husband kept motioning that I was the one to talk to about it...bizarre way to go about getting business.

Micky Dolenz

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

We were buying a car and the salesman insisted on speaking directly to my husband - even though I was the one asking the technical questions and my husband kept motioning that I was the one to talk to about it...bizarre way to go about getting business.

A Friend of mine was in hospital with his pregnant wife, they hardly even acknowledged that he was there. when he asked a question, the answer was directed at his wife.

Some times gender discrimination cuts both ways. My friend is the kind of person that would insist on being spoken to directly and I have no doubt you are the same.

Stheno

Sharrow wrote: »

They have done such experiments with gender, sending a woman into a hardware store and the reception reaction and then the same women dressed and presenting as a man going in and the different in the reception and reaction.

Similiarly studies have been done where a group of women have been sent to a pick up joint and told to represent themselves as MBA students or nurses e.g. and it was assessed how they did in terms of getting dates.

The nurses always did better

Fairly common on is assuming women know things about cars and that men do.
Plenty of women have posted in the forum about going to look at cars, or to have cars serviced or fixed and been talked over if they have a guy with them or it being assumed they haven't a clue or in case saying what was wrong was very 'techincal' and should they ring her husband to explain or refusing for to let her car which she owns be submitted for work done with out her husband approval due to the cost.

Funny story and completely opposite when the bf wrecked his car by driving it through a flood, I offered to help him search for a new car. He wanted a car that was "big, comfy and preferably black" :rolleyes: I found one, same model I'd previously owned, turns out I knew the car model and it's quirks (I like cars), the dealer, we'd great fun chatting, and the bf simply turned up to handover a cheque * Our mechanic tends to deal with me, but that's an area I'm interested in, and when I find car dealers and mechanics who talk to me as a person as opposed to a "woman who knows nothing about cars" I respect them. Far too often the motor industry applies gender "norms" as it perceives them without taking into account individuals.

*p.s two and a bit years on the car is running grand

I will never forget the day I was told by a car salesperson that it was an eight horsepower model however

Ickle Magoo

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

A Friend of mine was in hospital with his pregnant wife, they hardly even acknowledged that he was there. when he asked a question, the answer was directed at his wife.

Some times gender discrimination cuts both ways. My friend is the kind of person that would insist on being spoken to directly and I have no doubt you are the same.

While rude & unnecessary, the pregnant woman and unborn child are their only patient/s or "customer" - when buying a car, it was my car we were buying actually, the same cannot be said.

Stheno

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

A Friend of mine was in hospital with his pregnant wife, they hardly even acknowledged that he was there. when he asked a question, the answer was directed at his wife.

Some times gender discrimination cuts both ways. My friend is the kind of person that would insist on being spoken to directly and I have no doubt you are the same.

And that's the essence of it Micky. If people acknowledged equality amongst the genders, then all of the scenarios that you, me, and several other people have discussed here wouldn't have arisen, we'd be treated equally.

WesternNight

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

A Friend of mine was in hospital with his pregnant wife, they hardly even acknowledged that he was there. when he asked a question, the answer was directed at his wife.

Some times gender discrimination cuts both ways.

Absolutely. That shouldn't happen. It's not a counter-argument to, like, balance out the prejudice against women though..

Stheno

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

While rude & unnecessary, the pregnant woman and unborn child are their only patient/s or "customer" - when buying a car, it was my car we were buying actually, the same cannot be said.

I'd argue differently there ickle, at the end of the day, that unborn child has two parents, and both are entitled to be involved in the pre and post natal care of that child and be treated with respect.

Rude and unnecessary yes.

That said, it's not that long ago here that men went to the pub, and women gave birth.

Ickle Magoo

I'm thinking in a labour ward when it's quicker getting the info straight from the horses mouth as it were - but yes, you are absolutely right there...

Micky Dolenz

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

While rude & unnecessary, the pregnant woman and unborn child are their only patient/s or "customer" - when buying a car, it was my car we were buying actually, the same cannot be said.

I have to completely disagree. As a father of the child and husband to the wife, he has a vested interest and is very much part of the package. If the shit hits the fan in labour who makes the decisions? next of kin.

Your car purchase pales into insignificance beside the bearing of a mans child.

Micky Dolenz

WesternNight wrote: »

Absolutely. That shouldn't happen. It's not a counter-argument to, like, balance out the prejudice against women though..

Absolutely not. I am not here to defend my profession or my gender. But just to point out that gender discrimination happens all around us and not just against women.

Stheno

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I'm thinking in a labour ward when it's quicker getting the info straight from the horses mouth as it were - but yes, you are absolutely right there...

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I have to completely disagree. As a father of the child and husband to the wife, he has a vested interest and is very much part of the package. If the shit hits the fan in labour who makes the decisions? next of kin.

Your car purchase pales into insignificance beside the bearing of a mans child.

In fairness Mickey in answering my argument, Ickle has also acknowledged yours?

WesternNight

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Your car purchase pales into insignificance beside the bearing of a mans child.

Sure, but the lack of respect is the same. Please don't make it seem like one trumps the other, the basic premise is the same.

WesternNight

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Absolutely not. I am not here to defend my profession or my gender. But just to point out that gender discrimination happens all around us and not just against women.

This thread is about feminism. No-one's suggesting that women are the only ones to be at the receiving end of gender discrimination. We're just at the receiving end of more of it.

Stheno

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Absolutely not. I am not here to defend my profession or my gender. But just to point out that gender discrimination happens all around us and not just against women.

That's been discussed several times on the thread Micky, but this thread is about feminism and it's aims, albeit it has strayed off topic several times.

Why not start a thread on how gender discrimination affects men here in this forum? I think you might be surprised at a lot of the responses?

Ickle Magoo

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I have to completely disagree. As a father of the child and husband to the wife, he has a vested interest and is very much part of the package. If the shit hits the fan in labour who makes the decisions? next of kin.

Your car purchase pales into insignificance beside the bearing of a mans child.

Bearing of a man's child? How deliciously victorian.

I was thinking about the birth of my kids (one in particular) and how my husband was treated...he was pretty much shoved into a corner and told what to do & when to do it while they threw questions at me - but then my life and the life of our child was at stake so taking a Q&A from him just wasn't going to happen...

If it's an average ante-natal check-up then there is absolutely no need to be rude, abrupt, dismissive or anything else of either parent.

Micky Dolenz

Stheno wrote: »

In fairness Mickey in answering my argument, Ickle has also acknowledged yours?

we posted at the same time

WesternNight wrote: »

Sure, but the lack of respect is the same. Please don't make it seem like one trumps the other, the basic premise is the same.

Agreed and I am not trying to out do any story of discrimination.

WesternNight wrote: »

This thread is about feminism. No-one's suggesting that women are the only ones to be at the receiving end of gender discrimination. We're just at the receiving end of more of it.

Besides the ignorant people we come in contact with. Is discrimination a big issue in modern Ireland?

Stheno

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

we posted at the same time

Fair enough so

Besides the ignorant people we come in contact with. Is discrimination a big issue in modern Ireland?

Those we come in contact with are those who perpetuate discrimination given the couple of pages we've had recently on this thread of people's different and individual stories.

It gives examples of discrimination at different levels, now one could say that one will accept it, or challenge it, which would you prefer to do?