Feminists

Morag

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I have to completely disagree. As a father of the child and husband to the wife, he has a vested interest and is very much part of the package. If the shit hits the fan in labour who makes the decisions? next of kin.

Which the man and father to be is not next of kin to the woman if they are not married, (unless this was done legally and hospital informed of this) and in that case he doesn't get to make any decisions and if she is not fit to it falls to the medical professionals to make the best decision.

Yes when it comes to maternity hospitals the manner in which Dads to be can be treated can need work, again it's a cultural issue most of the time.
But while the gender assumption about Dads to be is not fair, it doesn't balance the ways gender assumptions are detrimental to women as a whole.

While I do think men and women and boys and girls need enlightenment, encouragement and empowerment to try and scrap the gender assumptions we have inherited, I think girls and women need it more. I've a daughter and a son and will do my best for both of them but there are still issues which are deemed women's issues and until we are all feminists it's going to be hard to make change happen.

Having an understanding and an apperication of some of the things the other gender has to endure means we can see the issues and be supportive.
But it takes time and effort, and often giving people space to talk about and explore what the issues are and if and how they are effected by them.

Which can be the hard part in this day and age, trying to have discussion which is women focused can be hard as that space is not always respected and if women can't talk about how being women in this society effects then then there is no acknowledgement that there might be changes needed and how to go about making those changes happen.

Men also need this, but not at the expense of women's discussion, or diluting them down.

Micky Dolenz

Stheno wrote: »

Fair enough so


Those we come in contact with are those who perpetuate discrimination given the couple of pages we've had recently on this thread of people's different and individual stories.

It gives examples of discrimination at different levels, now one could say that one will accept it, or challenge it, which would you prefer to do?

I'm all up for challenging stuff. Never good at accepting norms when they ain't right. But to be honest, I don't see it or hear about it. Most of my female friends hold professional jobs and don't complain about gender discrimination. I have never had a conversation where discrimination based on gender affected their education or job prospects .

Don't get me wrong, Womens rights are important and are oppressed very harshly in some parts of the world, I am not entirely convinced modern Ireland is one of these places.

Stheno

Sharrow wrote: »

Which the man and father to be is not next of kin to the woman if they are not married, (unless this was done legally and hospital informed of this) and in that case he doesn't get to make any decisions and if she is not fit to it falls to the medical professionals to make the best decision.

Yes when it comes to maternity hospitals the manner in which Dads to be can be treated can need work, again it's a cultural issue most of the time.
But while the gender assumption about Dads to be is not fair, it doesn't balance the ways gender assumptions are detrimental to women as a whole.

While I do think men and women and boys and girls need enlightenment, encouragement and empowerment to try and scrap the gender assumptions we have inherited, I think girls and women need it more. I've a daughter and a son and will do my best for both of them but there are still issues which are deemed women's issues and until we are all feminists it's going to be hard to make change happen.

Having an understanding and an apperication of some of the things the other gender has to endure means we can see the issues and be supportive.
But it takes time and effort, and often giving people space to talk about and explore what the issues are and if and how they are effected by them.

Which can be the hard part in this day and age, trying to have discussion which is women focused can be hard as that space is not always respected and if women can't talk about how being women in this society effects then then there is no acknowledgement that there might be changes needed and how to go about making those changes happen.

Men also need this, but not at the expense of women's discussion, or diluting them down.

I'd agree with this, I was blessed with an upbringing where gender was irrelevant and from a very young age, I was treated as an equal in discussion and debate.

I saw this in a previous role where my going to a networking night at girl geeks was laughed at!

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Fcuk, I'm all up for challenging stuff. Never good at accepting norms when they ain't right. But to be honest, I don't see it or hear about it. Most of my female friends hold professional jobs and don't complain about gender discrimination. Most if not all my lovers have been highly educated and haven't heard it from then either, I have a thing for women more educated then me, which isn't hard :P I have never had a conversation where discrimination based on gender affected their education or job prospects .

Don't get me wrong, Womens rights are important and are oppressed very harshly in some parts of the world, I am not entirely convinced modern Ireland is one of these places.

Kinda goes back to Sharrows post, and contradicts some of your earlier posts where you accept that discrimination does occur. Does it occur to you that perhaps (as Wibbs said) it's so engrained that they no longer notice it?

I know for me it is, and I ignore it, it takes some really over the top behaviour for me to pay attention. I'm very highly qualified in my field, and when I go home, I talk to my OH about my achievements that day, but I'll bitch to my male colleagues about those who have pissed me off

You make a valid point in that compared to e.g. Afghanistan and anywhere that operates under strict anti women societal rules is far different to Ireland.

However the insidious drip drip of tolerated discrimination that is handed down generation to generation in this country will stop the achievement of equal rights for both genders.

Given that feminism seeks to achieve equality of rights, and we are talking about it in the context of Ireland, do the examples you've read about and in some cases agreed with, not make you put that in the context of the country you live in?


I'm off to bed now, work beckons

It's been an interesting discussion.

Morag

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I'm all up for challenging stuff. Never good at accepting norms when they ain't right. But to be honest, I don't see it or hear about it. Most of my female friends hold professional jobs and don't complain about gender discrimination. I have never had a conversation where discrimination based on gender affected their education or job prospects .

Don't get me wrong, Womens rights are important and are oppressed very harshly in some parts of the world, I am not entirely convinced modern Ireland is one of these places.

Have you ever asked them about it?
Or created a space where they could talk about it?
I know people who believe the same as you do and so people don't discuss it with them as they feel they can't share as they won't be listened to and will only have what they are saying dissected.

We all make compromises, esp professionally and there are times unless something is extremely blatant there is no point, so we ignore it and don't think about it, don't talk about and just keep going.

If they honestly have not, then I am pleased for them and slightly jealous but it would be something which gives me hope for the type of country my kids will grow up to work in. Then again it only takes something like the Price Waterhouse Coopers email debacle to dash it for another while.

WesternNight

I think, as Wibbs said, a lot of men just don't realise (through no fault of their own) just how much or how often or in how many ways women experience discrimination or general assumptions/prejudices, subtle or otherwise. And actually, I think it's possible that a lot of women don't notice it all either. It's everywhere. In professional environments, in relationships, in families, in the media (jesus christ the media..), in academia.. it honestly can be found absolutely anywhere, sometimes subtle sometimes quite blatant.

But it's only ever going to be commented on when it's blatant enough for others to see and take notice. Because otherwise the liklihood is that we'll be 'making mountains of of molehills', 'seeing discrimination where there isn't any', 'going out of our way to be offended' or any other such phrases that I've heard a million times.

Personally, it's not something that I consciously decide to not bring up when I see it. It's just something that's always been a part of life. It's always been there, and quite honestly I suspect it always will in one form or another. I often find myself writing a replies on various boards threads to draw attention to it when it happens, and then deleting them again because it's just not worth it. And it's the same in life too. It would be seen as 'petty'.

I think it would be fair to say that for every objection a woman makes about gender discrimination, she'll have experienced (insert random number here) more that she hasn't said a word about.

Wibbs

WesternNight wrote: »

I think, as Wibbs said, a lot of men just don't realise (through no fault of their own) just how much or how often or in how many ways women experience discrimination or general assumptions/prejudices, subtle or otherwise.

No generally we don't and even if you've trained your head to spot it it's still not easy. it's hard to be objective about such things. Depending on opening mindset one can swing too far the other way and see it where it doesn't exist or is neutral. Confirmation bias kinda thing.

I know I discriminate with gender. I'll make certain assumptions way quicker and deeper than I would about age or ethnic background. It goes both ways too, not just negative. EG I'd give a woman far more leeway emotionally than I would a man. I'd extend them more allowances for the rough and tumble of banter as a general rule too.

And actually, I think it's possible that a lot of women don't notice it all either.

Oh defo. Some don't want to notice either. That can be another elephant in the room. The discrimination suits them as it's positive for them. As well as the women being equal(and more) partners in society, there's also various grades of the feminine freeloader out there too. From the dizzy dolly bird who attaches to men early on using her ass as currency, to the "career girl" who in reality just wants the semi dee and three kids and the career is just an extension to college. Both need a man to support that lifestyle. Society tends to agree in general. Look at dating. I've observed the majority of men don't care what their partner or potential partner does for a living, so long as she's happy in it, doesn't stress him about it and leaves enough time for him in the equation. Now most won't be too chuffed if she's unemployed*, but it's not nearly as much of a dealbreaker. Many more women are selective about a guys career, either potential or actual. A guy working part time will tend to be selected out, an unemployed man almost definitely will. You'll hear more women state they look for ambition in a man, than the reverse. Indeed I honestly can't recall a man ever saying similar.

Women are discriminated against. This is a fact. I'm not going to do the usual whataboutery "oh but men are too..." guff. I'm trying to put across why some men may come out with that whataboutery in the first place. IMHO it's not - or less so - the old chauvinism, it's chauvinism nouveau(pretentious, moi? ) To many men, the average woman seems to do better and have more leeway in life than the average man. Oh sure there are far less women at the top, but the Top(tm) is a rarified environment for men too. So these guys come back with the whataboutery. It's not so much an attack on feminism as such.





*doesn't include if she has kids. Motherhood is a lifetime career

LittleBook

Sharrow wrote: »

when it comes to maternity hospitals the manner in which Dads to be can be treated can need work, again it's a cultural issue most of the time

In my experience and that of my friends, when it comes to maternity units in Ireland (and one in particular which we won't go into), how everybody is treated is open to criticism.

Stheno wrote: »

Kinda goes back to Sharrows post, and contradicts some of your earlier posts where you accept that discrimination does occur. Does it occur to you that perhaps (as Wibbs said) it's so engrained that they no longer notice it?

I know for me it is, and I ignore it, it takes some really over the top behaviour for me to pay attention.

Tina Fey on sexism:

When faced with sexism or ageism or lookism or even really aggressive Buddhism, ask yourself the following question:"Is this person in between me and what I want to do?"

If the answer is no, ignore it and move on. Your energy is better used doing your work and outpacing people that way. Then, when you're in charge, don't hire the people who were jerky to you.

Time and time again (here and elsewhere), people raise doubts as to whether gender discrimination still exists in Ireland. Personally I believe (even apart from the lingering stale odour of sexism which still permeates in certain areas/people 40 years after the great changes brought about by the IWLM), until (at least) three things happen, we still have some way to go:

1. Easy (and free?) access to all contraception methods to women. A doctor by law should not be allowed to refuse to prescribe the MAP, contraceptive pills and/or long-term and/or permanent contraception (to women under a certain age).

2. Statutory maternity leave transferable to the father and the father receives the same protection in employment law when he uses it. This is seen as a men's rights issue but, I believe, the current situation is a huge stumbling block to employment equality for women.

3. A dramatic improvement (somehow) in reporting of sexual assaults, expedition of trials and convictions thereafter.

Everybody in their right minds agrees that the above is not too much to ask for but it's just not happening. I'm sure there are other things but these are just the ones that jump out at me.

It's true that women in Ireland have never had it so good and certainly have it better than women in some other countries ... but that doesn't mean it's good enough.

LittleBook

Wibbs wrote: »

the usual whataboutery "oh but men are too..." guff.

I liken this to Godwin's Law:

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches".

Littlebook's Law:

"As an online discussion on women's rights grows longer, the probablility of a comparison with men's rights, or lack thereof, approaches".

Count Duckula

Why do some men insist in dragging men's rights (or occasional lack thereof) into discussions about feminism and women's rights?

Is it because they feel defensive or threatened, and so are claiming "we have problems too"? As if they feel under attack by women pointing out the ways in which they are still discriminated against (they're the men, so therefore they're personally responsible; at least that's how they interpret the argument) and are trying to claim they're not.

Or that they want to feel "part of" the movement? It's easier to agree and support something if you can convince yourself it affects you in a positive way, so by trying to highlight problems with men's rights they can "get in" on feminism. It becomes far less scary and alien if men can suddenly convince themselves that it's a fight for their own benefit, too. You can also keep tabs on the feminist movement from the inside.

Or finally is it an element that men still want to control women's rights? Deep down, most men are used to being the dominant gender - what they say goes, or at least that's how they see it. Encroaching on the feminist movement is merely an extension of this - here are a group of women who want to combat the ways in which society still oppresses them; by forcing their way into that group with cries of "it affects us too" are they trying to redirect the focus to themselves - to men - all over again. They're so used to being the centre of society's attention that it seems natural to turn the feminist movement in that direction, too. It becomes just as much about "men's rights" as about women's, because otherwise that just ain't fair.

Those are three possible reasons my brain could conjure. I suspect there are more that other people can suggest. Personally, I think the bulk of men who intrude on the feminist movement with anecdotes and complaints about men's rights and father's rights are probably in the second group. They want to feel included simply because then the feminist movement is less scary to them. I am sure, however, that there are probably a good number of men solidly mired in the narcissism of group three.

Also, I appreciate the irony innate in my post - that in discussing why men feel they need to intrude on feminism, my post about men is intruding in a thread about feminism.

Logical Fallacy

Count Duckula wrote: »

Why do some men insist in dragging men's rights (or occasional lack thereof) into discussions about feminism and women's rights?

Is it because they feel defensive or threatened, and so are claiming "we have problems too"? As if they feel under attack by women pointing out the ways in which they are still discriminated against (they're the men, so therefore they're personally responsible; at least that's how they interpret the argument) and are trying to claim they're not.

Or that they want to feel "part of" the movement? It's easier to agree and support something if you can convince yourself it affects you in a positive way, so by trying to highlight problems with men's rights they can "get in" on feminism. It becomes far less scary and alien if men can suddenly convince themselves that it's a fight for their own benefit, too. You can also keep tabs on the feminist movement from the inside.

Or finally is it an element that men still want to control women's rights? Deep down, most men are used to being the dominant gender - what they say goes, or at least that's how they see it. Encroaching on the feminist movement is merely an extension of this - here are a group of women who want to combat the ways in which society still oppresses them; by forcing their way into that group with cries of "it affects us too" are they trying to redirect the focus to themselves - to men - all over again. They're so used to being the centre of society's attention that it seems natural to turn the feminist movement in that direction, too. It becomes just as much about "men's rights" as about women's, because otherwise that just ain't fair.

Those are three possible reasons my brain could conjure. I suspect there are more that other people can suggest. Personally, I think the bulk of men who intrude on the feminist movement with anecdotes and complaints about men's rights and father's rights are probably in the second group. They want to feel included simply because then the feminist movement is less scary to them. I am sure, however, that there are probably a good number of men solidly mired in the narcissism of group three.

Also, I appreciate the irony innate in my post - that in discussing why men feel they need to intrude on feminism, my post about men is intruding in a thread about feminism.

Alternately it could simply be attempts at creating bonds and unity without the need to patronize people. Which comes off better "Oh, as a man i have no problems, but i can work out how to feel bad for a woman who does" or "Yeah, i understand where you are coming from as i have experienced similar"?

Count Duckula

But the point is most men haven't experienced similar. Whatsmore, those "similarities" pale in comparison the day-in day-out oppression that women are subtly subjected to. The very act of saying "yes we suffer from this too" is patronising.

Both sexes can't be oppressed; one must be oppressing the other.

Morag

Count Duckula wrote: »

Both sexes can't be oppressed; one must be oppressing the other.

I disagree with that, I think society can and does oppress both, in ways which are different due to gender but again I don't know how it feels to be a disenfranchised young man or a father refused access to his kids.

I wouldn't try to, but if there was a discussion about it, I would try and listen and learn so that I gain understanding and try to be supportive.

Men can be feminists and can learn to listen and be supportive and can take part in a lot of feminist dicussion to a point. The same way there are different support groups for the friends/partners of people who are struggling with issues as they are effected by that struggle indirectly.

Logical Fallacy

Count Duckula wrote: »

But the point is most men haven't experienced similar. Whatsmore, those "similarities" pale in comparison the day-in day-out oppression that women are subtly subjected to. The very act of saying "yes we suffer from this too" is patronising.

Both sexes can't be oppressed; one must be oppressing the other.

The way you look at it is the main problem that i have with most discussion around feminism...a straight down the line men versus females view where men are advantaged and women are not.

Out of interest....how do you know what blokes have experienced on a personal level? You seem to be forgetting about the fact that the heart of the discussion is people and the human experience and worrying more about labels.

Your argument would be like me saying the experiences of women in Ireland today pale in comparison to the experiences that their mothers experienced...so can they all just settle down and admit how good they have it now.

Count Duckula

Not really, as it wasn't those women's mothers who oppressed them, even indirectly (through society). It is, on the other hand, men who do so - not outwardly and perhaps not even consciously, but they do.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Count Duckula wrote: »

But the point is most men haven't experienced similar. Whatsmore, those "similarities" pale in comparison the day-in day-out oppression that women are subtly subjected to. The very act of saying "yes we suffer from this too" is patronising.

Both sexes can't be oppressed; one must be oppressing the other.

Socio-economic factors will always be a bigger determinant to equality than gender. A girl growing up in Clontarf is far more likely to earn more and be more successful than a guy from Coolock.

The chances of higher earning power and success vary far less between a girl and a guy both from clontarf. So no, one sex is not opressing the other.

As much as I am against socialism/communism, equality and capitalism don't mix very well.

Logical Fallacy

Count Duckula wrote: »

Not really, as it wasn't those women's mothers who oppressed them, even indirectly (through society). It is, on the other hand, men who do so - not outwardly and perhaps not even consciously, but they do.

Okay, give me a valid reason and concrete examples as to how I have oppressed women and i will stop thinking you are applying specious reasoning to a complex issue.

Also, how do you know that mothers don't "oppress" daughters? Lots of opinion being given as concrete fact and broad sweeping statements as certainties in your posting...hence my disagreements with you.

Scanlas The 2nd

Sharrow wrote: »

Have you ever asked them about it?
Or created a space where they could talk about it?
I know people who believe the same as you do and so people don't discuss it with them as they feel they can't share as they won't be listened to and will only have what they are saying dissected.

We all make compromises, esp professionally and there are times unless something is extremely blatant there is no point, so we ignore it and don't think about it, don't talk about and just keep going.

If they honestly have not, then I am pleased for them and slightly jealous but it would be something which gives me hope for the type of country my kids will grow up to work in. Then again it only takes something like the Price Waterhouse Coopers email debacle to dash it for another while.

How important is equality to you?

Morag

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

How important is equality to you?

Why do you ask?

Scanlas The 2nd

Sharrow wrote: »

Why do you ask?

I find it strange that people seem so interested in gender discrimination but not height discrimination for example?

People earn thousands less as a result of being short and are treated worse as well, but where are all the heightist groups and marches.

I see a big part of feminism in the modern first world countries as basically a pursuit of one's own selfish interests (not that there is anything wrong with that) and ego. People often claim that equality is so important to them but then you look at who the protestors mainly are and you see that feminists are mainly women, gay protests are mainly gays etc.....If equality is so important to people surely heightism should be on a similar par to feminism in the western world.

Maple

Scanlas The 2nd, that is the most nonsensical post I've come across on this thread. Please stop trying to derail this thread.

Maple

Scanlas The 2nd

Maple wrote: »

Scanlas The 2nd, that is the most nonsensical post I've come across on this thread. Please stop trying to derail this thread.

Maple

Will do, I'll discuss heightism and it's comparison's to feminism elsewhere.

I wasn't trying to derail the thread by the way. That was my honest input. Cheers.

Ickle Magoo

The aggressive and dismissive resentment evident whenever the topic, mention of support or even a wider discussion on the ideology of feminism rears its head - even in a forum which exists for female posters to discuss issues from a female perspective - is really quite staggering...it's almost worth a discussion in it's own right.

Wibbs

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

The aggressive and dismissive resentment evident whenever the topic, mention of support or even a wider discussion on the ideology of feminism rears its head - even in a forum which exists for female posters to discuss issues from a female perspective - is really quite staggering...

Oh it is, but ask yourself why IM. Why does that stuff pile in? Why is there aggression and resentment? IMHO it's a goodly chunk of the problem modern feminism faces. Other than maybe a boards demographic affecting it, I do think it boils down to two things; a) men don't see it as they don't live it, and/or b) many average men look around more and more and it seems average women are doing better overall in life. Well there's also the third option of course, people being twats.

Morag

So 'modern' feminism has to tailor it's self to what men think and feel and suppose?
What an oxymoronic notion..

I get that awareness and education is needed on what feminism is as it's far to easy for people to trot out the same trite slanted stereotypes, as we have seen time and again in this thread. But demanding to be educated instead of informing yourself just places another burden on people.

http://www.derailingfordummies.com/

WesternNight

Sharrow wrote: »

But demanding to be educated instead of informing yourself just places another burden on people.

Ah now come on. You could just as easily say that refusing to educate people also places the burden on others. Women can't just sit back and wait patiently for the rest to catch up to their way of thinking, or to suddenly become informed about what affects them. If that was the case then we'd probably still be forbidden from joining the workforce and contraception wouldn't exist, and we definitely wouldn't be here discussing this topic.

unclejunior

darkman2 wrote: »

This won't be controversial at all but do Feminists believe Women = Men or Women > Men?


Discuss!

elaine crowley. thats all i have to say

Stheno

unclejunior wrote: »

elaine crowley. thats all i have to say

unclejunior if you have nothing useful to say then please don't.

Morag

WesternNight wrote: »

Ah now come on. You could just as easily say that refusing to educate people also places the burden on others. Women can't just sit back and wait patiently for the rest to catch up to their way of thinking, or to suddenly become informed about what affects them. If that was the case then we'd probably still be forbidden from joining the workforce and contraception wouldn't exist, and we definitely wouldn't be here discussing this topic.

I meant in contexts of discussion on the internet, if people really wanted to know they could go and search and read. Expecting to be spoonfed when they can't be arsed to google and doing so derail and sidetrack discussion frankly isn't on imho.

Wibbs

Sharrow wrote: »

So 'modern' feminism has to tailor it's self to what men think and feel and suppose?
What an oxymoronic notion..

Oh god... Let's miss my point by a country mile shall we and rather than address the two points let's help the morons out there by proving their point?

I get that awareness and education is needed on what feminism is

Exactly. Simple as that.

But demanding to be educated instead of informing yourself just places another burden on people.

Or rather than rail against why things aren't the way they should be, maybe figure out why they're not. It's nothing to do with demanding either. It's common sense.

http://www.derailingfordummies.com/

How trite and lazy to post that link. If you want to use that as a defence any time someone raises a point that doesn't square with your worldview on this, knock yourself out, but it hardly passes for debate.

WesternNight

Sharrow wrote: »

I meant in contexts of discussion on the internet, if people really wanted to know they could go and search and read. Expecting to be spoonfed when they can't be arsed to google and doing so derail and sidetrack discussion frankly isn't on imho.

How boring would the world be if everyone just asked Google every time they had a question rather than enter into a dialogue with others who are interested in the same topic? You're under no obligation to reply if it's inconvenient for you to answer peoples' questions. You can also feel free to bring the discussion back onto the track whenever you want.