Feminists

darkman2

This won't be controversial at all but do Feminists believe Women = Men or Women > Men?


Discuss!

Links234

no offense, but that's a ridiculously dumb question

Wibbs

I agree and with your not insignificant trolling rapsheet, I can't see this going anywhere useful. Closed. Don't start another or similar OP.

EDIT OK the OP has PM'd me saying this was a genuine question and sunny day that's in it, benefit of the doubt and all.

but Any BS and very long, even permanent bans will be dished out.

Dudess

Angry men like John Waters like to think feminism means women are better than men, but it doesn't. There are man-hating splinter groups all right but they're just crazies and anyone who uses them as a stick to beat all feminists/women with is just stupid and/or bitter.

darkman2

Dudess wrote: »

anyone who uses them as a stick to beat all feminists/women with is just stupid and/or bitter.

But this is the thing - what is a feminist? To me women are just women - same as men and we should all be treated the same. I was watching a feminist in the UK on the news rambling on about marriage being bad for women etc.....(think she was a bit of a nut tbh) and I was just think what is this women's agenda as a feminist?


For example positive discrimination against men in elections to the Dáil to get more women involved. Is that something that feminists want? Would they approve of the idea that to get elected women would have to be put there because they are women and not because of their ability to do the job? That's something I would have thought women out there would actually be insulted by.

Ickle Magoo

There are men that hate women, men that think they are better than women, women who hate men and women who think they are better than men - the majority outwith those extreme fringes, I would think, believe [roughly speaking] in equality for the sexes.

There will always be those who argue that women should be doing more for men's causes, women just want to better their own place in society regardless of the injustices towards men, that if women as feminists really were egalitarian that abortion wouldn't exist and nobody would object to strip joints - as with most politicised stances there are plenty of grey areas of disagreement - often used by those seeking to make any and all feminism a negative.

Like most things in life, as a title "feminism" gets hijacked by both those who are anti-women and anti-men and has come to represent so many things that I think it's impossible to say what "feminism" or "feminists" believe like feminism is some kind of hive mentality or shared mindset, or even shared ideal, these days.

Morag

Generally feminists believe in feminism which is about equal rights for women (equal to men), it is also about encouraging and empowering women to pursue their rights where they exist.

Saying that all feminists are radicals who hate men and think women are better then men is
like saying at all irish catholics are terrorist and all men are rapists; eg it's bullshít.

Ickle Magoo

darkman2 wrote: »

I was watching a feminist in the UK on the news rambling on about marriage being bad for women etc.....

And yet not so long ago there was a thread on marriage being bad for men on this very site - do you believe all those who were proponents of marriage being bad for men rambling nuts, too?

There was a discussion on gender quotas here when the story broke and if memory serves correctly, by far the majority of loungers were against the idea - I believe it was also pointed out that gender quotas were suggested by male politicians and in order to come into force would have to be passed by a majority male dáil...

metrovelvet

There are people who use politics as personal therapy too.

Morag

There is some small merit in gender quotas for political office.
More women means more role models which mean more women will consider it,
More women will force changes to the work culture of the Dáil,which can make it more welcoming to women.

But I don't those and the other small benefits out weighing the backlash.

jos28

In my opinion feminists are women who want equality. The feminist movement has its roots in an era when married women were banned from the workplace, women could not obtain mortgages in their own names, were not allowed serve on juries and earned significantly less than their male colleagues for doing the SAME job. The feminist movement fought to eradicate this discrimination.This was not the victorian era, it affected women in the 1970s. Ask your mothers/aunts/grandmothers, they will remember. Equality legislation has removed much of the discrimination but there is still work to be done. Women still earn only 70% of male earnings and are responsible for more domestic tasks than men. Phew.. rant over, I can get down off my soapbox now. Admittedly, some feminists have taken things to the extreme, but like Sharrow says not all feminists are radicals.

Logical Fallacy

jos28 wrote: »

but like Sharrow says not all feminists are radicals.

Not all feminists are women either.

Blowfish

jos28 wrote: »

In my opinion feminists are women who want equality. The feminist movement has its roots in an era when married women were banned from the workplace, women could not obtain mortgages in their own names, were not allowed serve on juries and earned significantly less than their male colleagues for doing the SAME job. The feminist movement fought to eradicate this discrimination.This was not the victorian era, it affected women in the 1970s. Ask your mothers/aunts/grandmothers, they will remember. Equality legislation has removed much of the discrimination but there is still work to be done. Women still earn only 70% of male earnings and are responsible for more domestic tasks than men. Phew.. rant over, I can get down off my soapbox now. Admittedly, some feminists have taken things to the extreme, but like Sharrow says not all feminists are radicals.

When the extra hours worked by men are taken into account, this actually bumps up to above 90% and is closing all of the time. I'd imagine the remaining difference would be largely due to the fact that the workers at the top level with the largest experience would have entered the workforce in the 70's, which as you mentioned was still largely discriminatory. Give it 10-15 years and it'll balance itself out.

The domestic aspect is actually a much trickier issue than the employment one as it's straightforward enough for the government to legislate for equal pay for equal paid work, but pretty much impossible to try and do the same for domestic work. It needs to be more of a cultural change than anything.

Links234

sorry OP if I came across as rude or snappy, I just thought you were trolling

to me feminism isn't just about equal rights, it's about challenging the misogynistic attitudes in society, and (hopefully) gradually eroding them. these attitudes exist as memes and microaggressions that are demeaning and insulting towards women.

an example I'll give of this is the "make me a sandwich" meme, which I'm sure we've all heard ad infinitum, and is generally used as an all round retort or to silence or mock women, to call into question a woman's value. guys think it's funny, and so it gets repeated, but we all hear it so often it becomes an example of microaggression.

this comic is another good example of what I mean:

Catari Jaguar

Can't speak for feminists or even women in general but I come from a long line of females that were proud to be independent, working, educated, choice driven women. They refused to just honour and obey you know. I personally want to be taken seriously and respected on merits apart from a pretty face or big breasts. I like equailty and for women to be treated as equals, not patronised or excluded either.

I'm disappointed and annoyed by certain members of AH that post in a demeaning manner about wimmins and their sandwich making ability, how they should be in the kitchen, how they're stuck up their own arses and foreign girls are hotter etc. It gets old and repetetitive and you know, mud might just stick if enough is thrown.

I wouldn't count myself as a feminist and definitly not a man hater (that's as ridiculous as any other discrimantion or stereotype) but I'm pro women's rights, we have it lucky here compared to other countries that are completely backwards. Just because this is a liberated country doesn't make kitchen or rape jokes appropriate or light hearted, oppression of women still happens elsewhere...

strobe

Links234 wrote: »

To me feminism isn't just about equal rights, it's about challenging the misogynistic and misandrist attitudes in society, and (hopefully) gradually eroding them. These attitudes exist as memes and microaggressions that are demeaning and insulting towards women and men.

FYP....ehh...hopefully.

WindSock

strobe wrote: »

FYP....ehh...hopefully.

Which of these are insulting towards men?

Morag

cherub rock wrote: »

I wouldn't count myself as a feminist and definitly not a man hater (that's as ridiculous as any other discrimantion or stereotype) but I'm pro women's rights, we have it lucky here compared to other countries that are completely backwards. Just because this is a liberated country doesn't make kitchen or rape jokes appropriate or light hearted, oppression of women still happens elsewhere...

cherub rock while I don't think it is right for one person to label another,
what you've said above reads to me as you being a feminist, but you don't seem to like the label.

coffee_cake

cherub rock wrote: »

I wouldn't count myself as a feminist and definitly not a man hater (that's as ridiculous as any other discrimantion or stereotype) but I'm pro women's rights, .

This is like a nicer version of the "I'm not a racist but...".
Sure you are a feminist, nothing wrong with it

Ambersky

This thread caught my eye from Boards.ie main page and I must say as someone active in the second wave of feminism here in Ireland I feel really heartened by it.
A lot of women have done great work to make things easier for the next generation of women.
Its good to hear some of the women who didnt have to live through the worst of it, and the world is not equal yet, appreciate and remember what was done and that it didnt all just happen out of the blue.

On that note this is the 40th Anniversary of the contraceptive train which was an event organised by The Irish Womens Liberation Movement who went up to Belfast to buy contraceptives which were illegal in the country at that time.
It might be worth a listen to some of the women who were actually there on this podcast from The History Programme on RTE 1.
http://www.rte.ie/podcasts/2011/pc/pod-v-01051128m28sthehistoryshowwomen-pid0-1708296.mp3

Woman holding up illegal contraceptive in front of media and customs officials.

Morag

I have a huge amount of thanks and respect for those who fought to win me the rights and freedoms I enjoy but one thing that I could never figure out is why the women's libbers(as my granny called them), called themselves well women's libbers and not feminists.

Maybe feminism was something which was what women in other countries did but over here we had the women's libbers and the national women's council and in it's own way the irish country women's movement all espousing feminist ideals and taking actions to further the rights and causes of women but all of them shied away from the F word.

I do think this has contributed to many irish women and men not self identifying as feminists.

Ambersky

Dont usually post a second time so quickly after first, but I just wanted to say that there are a few things that seem to usually come up when feminism is discussed and it may be helpful to mention them early.
(A) There has been a strong backlash against feminism which makes some people distance themselves from the word probably without a full appreciation of what it means. This is understandable.
(B)Feminism is made up of different movements and ideologies.
Feminists discuss and argue among themselves as it is a vibrant social political movement. The sky does not fall down and it doesnt make feminism wrong because we disagree.

For more on Feminist Movements and ideologies try here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_movements_and_ideologies

Morag

For those who can't listen to a podcast and want to read more about the contraception train or who have never heard of it.

http://www.independent.ie/unsorted/features/the-day-we-drove-the-condom-train-straight-through--de-valeras-ireland-508291.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/indepth/sisters/sowing-the-seeds.html

Monday, May 24th, 1971

DENIS COGHLAN

THE ORDER came : "Loose your contraceptives!" and a shower of, condoms, pills , and spermicidal jelly fell at the feet of Customs men and slid along the railway platform towards the waiting crowd. The scene was Connolly Station, in Dublin, on Saturday, and members of the Irish Women's Liberation Movement had just returned from Belfast.

A few minutes later the hardcore of the movement, who had been prepared to go to jail, swept past the harassed Customs officials, waving the contraceptives they had refused to surrender, and chanting: "They are not interested."

It was a victory that brought tears to the eyes of some of the "liberated" women - women who, a few minutes before the train pulled into the station, were still trying to work up enough courage to carry the thing through.

But once the Customs barrier was cleared , they were the victors, and the spoils of war was the ridiculing of the law to which lip service was being paid. They marched to Store Street Garda Station and, waving contraceptives, they chanted: "The law is obsolete."

The gardaí were not interested either.

For the 47 members of the Liberation Movement who went to Belfast , the day started at Connolly Station at 8.15 am. Organisers rushed about the platform hoping to recognise faces - hoping that frightened women would keep their nerve. On the train, the Lib. members installed themselves in two carriages and reporters from the papers and television got on with the job of interviewing the "spokesmen".

All was normal on the rest of the train. Over 90 per cent of the passengers were women; housewives, typists and shop girls, all going to Belfast to buy cheap clothes for themselves and their families: clothes which they would later smuggle back through Customs.

Leaflets on the types of contraceptive available in Belfast were handed out to the protesters on the train and suggestions as to the kind of action they could take at the Dublin Customs were made. Three of the seven alternates outlined made the protesters liable to prosecution, and one suggestion read: "Declare internal contraceptive. Allow search from female officer only and shout April Fool before entry."

It was stressed that free legal aid was guaranteed to everyone who took part in the demonstration. Those sections of the Constitution guaranteeing the rights of the family and individual were quoted from a statement as the basis for the revolt against the law which makes the importation of contraceptives an offence and Dáil Éireann was charged with "being manipulated by forces outside the electorate".

Pet

Ambersky wrote: »

This thread caught my eye from Boards.ie main page and I must say as someone active in the second wave of feminism here in Ireland I feel really heartened by it.
A lot of women have done great work to make things easier for the next generation of women.
Its good to hear some of the women who didnt have to live through the worst of it, and the world is not equal yet, appreciate and remember what was done and that it didnt all just happen out of the blue.

On that note this is the 40th Anniversary of the contraceptive train which was an event organised by The Irish Womens Liberation Movement who went up to Belfast to buy contraceptives which were illegal in the country at that time.
It might be worth a listen to some of the women who were actually there on this podcast from The History Programme on RTE 1.
http://www.rte.ie/podcasts/2011/pc/pod-v-01051128m28sthehistoryshowwomen-pid0-1708296.mp3

Woman holding up illegal contraceptive in front of media and customs officials.

This is awesome, thanks for posting. Those women are legends.

panda100

Blowfish wrote: »

When the extra hours worked by men are taken into account, this actually bumps up to above 90% and is closing all of the time. I'd imagine the remaining difference would be largely due to the fact that the workers at the top level with the largest experience would have entered the workforce in the 70's, which as you mentioned was still largely discriminatory. Give it 10-15 years and it'll balance itself out.

Women have been in the workforce now for about 80 years. How long do we have to wait for things to 'balance out'? It doesn't seem to be happening anytime soon.
Also, in 1970 in the UK employers were subject to the Equal pay act, and the sex discrimination Act, so the workforce was not discriminatory in the 1970's. Yet there is still a massive gender differentiation at the top levels in the UK.

Ms.Odgeynist

Please ignore my username, I am certainly not misogynistic, it was meant in irony. I'm proud to call myself feminist to the extent that I believe in equality for all, and no more.

We have all benefitted from the progress that was fought for by feminists throughout the last 5 decades. My mother left her job young, and with it a vibrant social scene in Dublin, in order to raise myself and my siblings. It affected her greatly, and though she would never complain, it seems obvious that her world became much smaller overnight. It is sad to think that she gave that up for us.

I think the problem at the heart of the debate around feminism (if you can call it a debate) is that long ago there were assumptions made that were inaccurate. There is no doubt that society was patriarchal, and that the institutions we put our faith in were dominated by men rather than women. However at some point, both men and women were complicit in this.

The division of labour that occurred during the industrial revolution may have been implicitly unequal regarding gender, but the fact remains that that same division of labour provided the framework for the greatest period of progress in human history. The family unit as we know it today remains the backbone of capitalism. Its a wonderful thing that we can now begin to eliminate inequality of all kinds, but trying to revise a history in which a different reality might have been possible is naive.

But while these inequalities were developing in society, there were many victims. At the same time that women were being oppressed, for the first time in history modern towns and cities were springing up. Our ill and mentally infirm family members were for the first time being handed over to asylums rather than being cared for in the home. It is quite futile trying to hang the blame for this on any gender in particular.
It is futile too to try to blame oppressive ancestors for the injustice that my mother, grandmother, great grandmother etc experienced, because I assume they were no different from me. I could be wrong, but when I hear 'oppressive male society', I always picture a large group of rather mean spirited men in large halls, gathered in congress, plotting how they can regain power from the 'wimmin' for another few years.
Maybe I am naive, but when I consider society as it was, I picture a society struggling to emerge from a black history as best it could. I do not feel sympathy for my grandmother, or her mother. They built this society as it is today, with my grandfather, and his father.

I think it is the assignation of blame that skews this argument all the time.

Logical Fallacy

panda100 wrote: »

Women have been in the workforce now for about 80 years. How long do we have to wait for things to 'balance out'? It doesn't seem to be happening anytime soon.
Also, in 1970 in the UK employers were subject to the Equal pay act, and the sex discrimination Act, so the workforce was not discriminatory in the 1970's. Yet there is still a massive gender differentiation at the top levels in the UK.

Hey Panda, do you have any decent links to information around pay scales of men versus women???

I'm trying to find some info online but it's all very much top level and i'd like to see the details i have to say.

Ambersky

Feminism is against the institutional oppression of women and others.

Institutional Oppression occurs when established laws, customs, and practices systematically reflect and produce inequities based on one’s membership in a targeted social group.

Institutionalized oppression is a matter of result regardless of intent.
Its not about whether groups of men gather together intending to discriminate against women, what matters is that it happens, women are discriminated against.

The use of language is interesting when it comes to feminism.
Questions or statements are usually addressed
to figure out
Whats wrong with feminism that it has such a bad reputation?
instead of
Whats wrong with society that feminism has such a bad reputation?
This is called reversal.

Think of situations of rape and battering, reversal and blaming the victim are commonly used in discussions on these subjects too.
eg what was she wearing

This is not to say women are all victim, women are survivors too, some are complicit in some ways and for certain reasons, but when you look at an institutional oppression you need to be able to see the individual as part of a system.

I am not angry at men as a gender I see them as victims in the unequal system of patriarchy too and I have wishes and will work for what I see as liberation for them too.
But be aware it is very difficult to talk about women without constant attempts of one kind or another to get back to the subject of men.

Ms.Odgeynist

Ambersky wrote: »

Does any of this sound familiar?
Think of situations of rape and battering, both these examples of reversal and blaming the victim are commonly used in discussions on these subjects too.

Surely only by defense lawyers and idiots!

Blowfish

panda100 wrote: »

Women have been in the workforce now for about 80 years. How long do we have to wait for things to 'balance out'? It doesn't seem to be happening anytime soon.
Also, in 1970 in the UK employers were subject to the Equal pay act, and the sex discrimination Act, so the workforce was not discriminatory in the 1970's. Yet there is still a massive gender differentiation at the top levels in the UK.

I don't have statistics for the UK (specifically for the difference in hours worked), so I can't speak for there. Here though, it was the Anti-Discrimination (Pay) Act 1974 and the Employment Equality Act 1977 which settled the pay issue. The cultural issue though didn't happen here until even later. It was generally accepted that women worked until they got married, then gave up their job to become the 'good little housewife'. In this case, the law came first and helped prompt the cultural change which happened later.

I'm not saying that it's ok that there is still a pay difference now, just that it's an unfortunate fact that an employer aproaching a top level job offer solely on the basis of who has the most experience is likely to come across more male candidates than female ones.

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Hey Panda, do you have any decent links to information around pay scales of men versus women???

I'm trying to find some info online but it's all very much top level and i'd like to see the details i have to say.

This report has some.

Truley

Personally I am very much in favour of equality of opportunity for all sexes and try to avoid turning it into a men vs women or even just a fight for 'women's rights.' I think focusing on one 'side' of the cause will inevitably become narrow sighted. I do not believe in black people's rights I believe in everyone's rights.

One thing that really get's my goat is when people talk of discrimination and misogyny as if it's a simple men vs women argument. Many of the standard topics of women's rights; pro life, contraception bans, islamic dress, pay discrimination etc are so strongly enforced by other women. Magdalen laundries for example were largely run and staffed by women. They were also largely accepted by Irish women.

Often women do not face discrimination because of their gender but because of people's views on morality in general. I think feminists often make the mistake of viewing issues through a filter of gender discrimination when there is often much more to it than that.