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Electronic bus stop timetables

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    #152
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Once a route is high-ish frequency of 15 minutes, you don't really need an exact time table. I guess that was part of Network Direct - reduce the number of low frequency routes and increase the number of high frequency. That way it avoids the obvious time table problem!


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    #153
    IngazZagni
    Registered Users Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭IngazZagni


    sdonn wrote: »
    It was, but the sign changed to next bus before the due bus arrived. I reckon it should say "boarding" or something while the bus is at the stop in order to avoid the simple folk getting confused.

    I'm being very over critical, I know ;)

    Seriously you honestly believe that someone will think "well there's the 128 pulling up but it has disappeared on the screen and now says 12 minutes so I guess this isn't my bus!" ... It's still in testing remember, things will be updated and improved, that's what a testing period is for.
    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    In many cities I've visited or lived in, there is a piece of paper at the bus stop which gives you this information. And then the bus arrives at the stated time, or within a minute or two.

    In Dublin, however, the piece of paper tells you what time the bus left the starting point. There must, at this stage, be some amount of corporate knowledge of how long it takes a bus to get from Hawkins St (for example) to Ballsbridge (for example) at different times of the day, yet the piece of paper at the stop in Ballsbridge gives the time the bus leaves Hawkins St and no information about the time it should arrive in Ballsbridge for the journey south.

    The paper information at the stop in Ballsbridge (for example) is utterly useless to the bus user.

    These electronic boards are progress of a sort, in that if you reach the stop and see that your bus isn't for another 20 minutes, you can fairly safely head into a shop and look at the magazines and newspapers rather than do the usual thing of just faffing around at the bus stop not knowing if or when your bus is going to arrive.

    The big step will be for the transport provider - using its acquired knowledge of the traffic and transport situation in Dublin, at different times of the day - to provide a piece of paper at each bus stop which shows what time the bus is due to arrive at that stop, and ensure that the bus arrives at that time (or within a couple of minutes), so that you can plan your departure from home, or your workplace, or your meeting.

    These electronic signs are a costly smokescreen which will do nothing to ensure that that scenario ever comes about. Indeed, I think their presence may significantly delay the arrival of that scenario.

    You really have to understand that traffic and time between two points can be highly unpredictable. It can work well in some places where there is a modern road layout or places that don't see much congestion. Dublin as you know is a very old city and has streets that were never designed to carry these volumes.

    A printed timetable will always have issues. First off you can never guarantee it will be accurate.
    Secondly you have the issue of being early. So that would require you to stay at a stop for a couple minutes. This would mean you are blocking the bus lane and cause more issues for buses that may be behind time.
    An electronic sign would eliminate those issues.

    With regards to planning from home, you will be able to do that. As posted earlier there is a website that will provide a live feed from every stop in Dublin (currently only shows certain stops) so you can say that I need to leave in 5 minutes to make that bus. There will also be an app for your phone so you can get an update on when the bus is due at the stop while you walk to the stop.


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    #154
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    IngazZagni wrote: »
    You really have to understand that traffic and time between two points can be highly unpredictable. It can work well in some places where there is a modern road layout or places that don't see much congestion. Dublin as you know is a very old city and has streets that were never designed to carry these volumes.

    The problem in Dublin is that buses also go missing between depots and the routes first few urban stops -- like the no 4 buses which are unpredictable between Harristown and Ballymun Road. Or the buses of many other routes that leave their depots late or early. :)


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    #155
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,977 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    The big step will be for the transport provider - using its acquired knowledge of the traffic and transport situation in Dublin, at different times of the day - to provide a piece of paper at each bus stop which shows what time the bus is due to arrive at that stop, and ensure that the bus arrives at that time (or within a couple of minutes), so that you can plan your departure from home, or your workplace, or your meeting.
    Presume you're joking, how exactly is a piece of paper on the stop with estimated times better than a GPS-based system?
    monument wrote: »
    The problem in Dublin is that buses also go missing between depots and the routes first few urban stops -- like the no 4 buses which are unpredictable between Harristown and Ballymun Road. Or the buses of many other routes that leave their depots late or early. :)
    The great thing about an electronic, GPS-based system is that it corrects for errors like these. A paper, manual system does not.


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    #156
    snappieT
    Registered Users Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭snappieT


    Just a heads up that I've gone ahead and developed an iPhone webapp for this today, if any of your are interested in taking a look: http://www.DublinBusLive.com/

    db1.jpgdb2.jpg


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    #157
    petebricquette
    Registered Users Posts: 489 ✭✭petebricquette


    Sorry mods, only saw your post about the arguing now. I'm hungover. Be gentle.


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    #158
    KD345
    Registered Users Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭KD345


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    In many cities I've visited or lived in, there is a piece of paper at the bus stop which gives you this information. And then the bus arrives at the stated time, or within a minute or two.

    The big step will be for the transport provider - using its acquired knowledge of the traffic and transport situation in Dublin, at different times of the day - to provide a piece of paper at each bus stop which shows what time the bus is due to arrive at that stop, and ensure that the bus arrives at that time (or within a couple of minutes), so that you can plan your departure from home, or your workplace, or your meeting.

    Dublin Bus do offer intermediate times for key points on new timetables, but if you're suggesting every stop should have a piece of paper with a specific arrival time then you're opening up many problems. As any regular bus user will tell you, the same journey can differ in time from one day to the next. Many factors affect the journey time, from bad weather, hitting multiple red lights, heavy loadings/long dwell times at stops, roadworks, bus failure etc.

    Passengers would be very annoyed standing at a stop which says the bus arrives at 17.30, when it may not arrive until 17.45 - in their eyes it's late, or they may think they missed it, but in fact, the bus may have left the terminus on time, but has got delayed along it's route. That passenger would be far better off knowing how far away it actually is, in real time.


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    #159
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    KD345 wrote: »
    Dublin Bus do offer intermediate times for key points on new timetables, but if you're suggesting every stop should have a piece of paper with a specific arrival time then you're opening up many problems. As any regular bus user will tell you, the same journey can differ in time from one day to the next. Many factors affect the journey time, from bad weather, hitting multiple red lights, heavy loadings/long dwell times at stops, roadworks, bus failure etc.

    Passengers would be very annoyed standing at a stop which says the bus arrives at 17.30, when it may not arrive until 17.45 - in their eyes it's late, or they may think they missed it, but in fact, the bus may have left the terminus on time, but has got delayed along it's route. That passenger would be far better off knowing how far away it actually is, in real time.

    Actually I would disagree and I think this is exactly what is planned in the long run. This is what they have in London.

    Given all the changes that are happening to the network it is probably better to wait until after they have been implemented before going back to do stop specific timetables.

    The AVLC rollout will make this much easier to implement as far more accurate and detailed information will be available to schedulers.


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    #160
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    IngazZagni wrote: »
    You really have to understand that traffic and time between two points can be highly unpredictable. It can work well in some places where there is a modern road layout or places that don't see much congestion. Dublin as you know is a very old city and has streets that were never designed to carry these volumes.

    I do understand that. But buses have been running in Dublin for many years. There must at this stage be some corporate knowledge about how long it takes a bus to get from A to B, under any and all conditions, and to be able to produce a timetable which reflects this knowledge.

    In other words, there's several decades of experience in Dublin Bus. They should at this stage know that it takes 20 minutes to get from Hawkins St. to Ballsbridge in the early morning rush hour (for example), but only 14.5 minutes in the mid-afternoon (for example). The timetables at the bus stops should reflect this knowledge, for people using the bus under normal conditions.

    I doubt if there is any city in the world which would be able to stick rigidly to a timetable under adverse weather conditions, for example heavy snow in Sweden, Norway or Poland. Under those circumstances everybody expects that the bus will be a bit late. But I do know from experience that the bus timetables in these countries again become relevant and accurate pieces of paper after a couple of days of sorting the snow out.
    IngazZagni wrote: »
    A printed timetable will always have issues. First off you can never guarantee it will be accurate.
    Many cities in Europe - including big ones - do produce a timetable which is pretty accurate as regards the time of arrival of a bus at a particular stop. It's not always perfect, but its usually at the most a couple of minutes late.

    Dublin hasn't even attempted to provide a timetable at stops. If it takes a bus, say, 20 minutes, to get from Hawkins St to Ballsbridge in the early morning, then put 0700 on the timetable in Hawkins St and 0720 on the stop in Ballsbridge. People will understand if it's pissing rain, or snowing, or whatever, that the bus is probably going to be a bit late.

    But, at the moment, they have no idea whether the bus is going to be late, early, or whether it's even in existence. No idea at all.
    IngazZagni wrote: »
    Secondly you have the issue of being early. So that would require you to stay at a stop for a couple minutes. This would mean you are blocking the bus lane and cause more issues for buses that may be behind time.
    An electronic sign would eliminate those issues.

    Quite a number of the bus stops in Dublin are pull-in bus stops, so no problem there. A bus which is ahead of time would remain in the bus-stop, while a bus which needed to press on to meet its timetable would pull out and overtake.

    IngazZagni wrote: »
    With regards to planning from home, you will be able to do that. As posted earlier there is a website that will provide a live feed from every stop in Dublin (currently only shows certain stops) so you can say that I need to leave in 5 minutes to make that bus. There will also be an app for your phone so you can get an update on when the bus is due at the stop while you walk to the stop.

    Who wants to do any of that while they're in the shower or having their breakfast or ironing their shirt. Much easier, I think, if there is a stated timetable to which the buses run - like in many cities - so that the punters can have a shower, iron the shirt, eat the breakfast and leave home in the pretty secure knowledge that the bus will be there on time.

    No planning required. No need to look at the internet, no need for apps, simply walk out to the bus stop and wait for the bus at the appointed time. Simples.


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    #161
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Presume you're joking, how exactly is a piece of paper on the stop with estimated times better than a GPS-based system?

    Well, when I go to bed at night, I need to know what bus I need to catch the next day. Very often it's the 07:38. So I know at night what amount of time I need for ironing, having a shower, eating breakfast and catching the headlines. And, thus, I need to know what time to set the alarm clock for in order to catch the 07:38 bus.

    (And, yes, I know I know I know, I should iron the night before, or at the beginning of the week, but I haven't got to that level of planning, yet.:o)

    I don't think GPS will help me when I'm planning my early morning. So, no, I'm not joking when I say that a piece of paper - fairly well adhered to - is better than any GPS system. For me, anyway, but I'm confident that there are others who have the same approach to the start of their day as I do.

    At the end of my working day - my working hours are fairly fixed but the time I must be off the premises is not - I also leave my workplace at a time which allows me to readily catch a bus. No significant waiting involved, ever. This is thanks to the printed, paper, timetable, not some GPS system.


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    #162
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,977 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    At the end of my working day - my working hours are fairly fixed but the time I must be off the premises is not - I also leave my workplace at a time which allows me to readily catch a bus. No significant waiting involved, ever. This is thanks to the printed, paper, timetable, not some GPS system.
    OK, I get it now. Some good points there.
    But you could solve this by just having the bus be very frequent.


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    #163
    Jayuu
    Registered Users Posts: 742 ✭✭✭Jayuu


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    Well, when I go to bed at night, I need to know what bus I need to catch the next day. Very often it's the 07:38. So I know at night what amount of time I need for ironing, having a shower, eating breakfast and catching the headlines. And, thus, I need to know what time to set the alarm clock for in order to catch the 07:38 bus.

    Surely this is what the website is for (and the app once its developed). I use the website all the time now. If you drilldown to the lowest level and find the stop you want, you can then set that as you home location. Thereafter that's what opens when you access the site. That means in less than a minute I can check in real time exactly how long before buses on all on my potential routes will arrive. I check it first thing in the morning and make my decisions based on that. I have around 4 different bus routes that I can use and the exact one always varies on a day to day basis depending on the information I'm getting from the site.

    And I can tell you as somebody who has commuted in the Malahide Road for almost ten years now that even leaving aside weather issues there is no real pattern to traffic on that road. Sometimes its backed up as far as Artane from around 07:45. Other times you can sail in as far as Donneycarney Church at 08:15 before you hit any sort of traffic.

    A piece of paper is never going to be as accurate as an online site and I would be very surprised if Dublin Bus bothered with something like that. If you ask me its just setting themselves up for hundreds of complaints as buses get delayed in overly heavy traffic or worse arrive two minutes earlier than the time posted. If they had decades of information as you say then why haven't they done this already. Probably because they know it could never be reasonably accurate on any given day.


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    #164
    IngazZagni
    Registered Users Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭IngazZagni


    @strassenwo!f

    You're living in a ideal world where everything goes according to plan. Things don't always work out like that unfortunately.

    I lived in Florida for a year, America as a whole generally has pretty poor public transport. However, the bus service I used the odd time was pretty good. The stops did have the time they were supposed to arrive at that stop. I'd say 90% of the time, the bus arrived withing 2 or 3 minutes of that. However a couple times the bus just simply never showed up. I don't know if it was early or broke down or something but I ended up in the dilemma were I didn't know whether to start walking or wait. That's what drives me mad about DB without an electronic system.

    I drove to a business park every morning for a couple months there. Most of the time it took 20-25 minutes. A couple days were around 40 because of an accident and weather. However for a two particular weeks it only took me 15, why's that? Schools. Yes they where out and made a massive difference to traffic volumes on the streets. Should DB produce a separate (out of school hours timetable)?

    So while I agree that it would be great to have a sheet like that the bottom line is that it would be completely unreliable and you'd have many complaining that they aren't sticking to the printed table, more hassle than it's worth. The electronic system is a fantastic compromise.

    Currently in the mornings I have a spoon in one hand and my ipod touch in the other getting the latest news or whatever and maybe soon as snappieT posted checking the latest bus times too. :)


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    #165
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    Does anyone find it strange that there are no electronic bus timetables near the Grand Canal Theatre or indeed any of the large buildings or apartment blocks in that area? The first one on Pearse st. coming from Ringsend is near the Dublin City Council library.


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    #166
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,957 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The system isn't fully rolled out yet, dunno if they're even finished putting up poles yet - so some may surface.


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    #167
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    To_be_confirmed wrote: »
    Does anyone find it strange that there are no electronic bus timetables near the Grand Canal Theatre or indeed any of the large buildings or apartment blocks in that area? The first one on Pearse st. coming from Ringsend is near the Dublin City Council library.

    I know that "loading" factor is considered whether a top gets a display or not. The powers to be should also consider "prestige" stops where it would it would be good to have a display for almost "PR" purposes. Show off the system and maybe get some people who would maybe have not thought of the bus "because you never when they'll come".


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    #168
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    As the likes of the grand canal dock and some of the associated businesses and apartments are quite new, I wonder if they have any loading statistics that reflect the dockland's significant development.


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    #169
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,261 ✭✭✭markpb


    BrianD wrote: »
    I know that "loading" factor is considered whether a top gets a display or not

    I wonder how DB get these loading statistics. It can't be from their ticket machines because they aren't aware of stops, only stages. Possibly they have more detail now because of the GPS units but they've only been around for a few months which isn't enough time to judge properly.


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    #170
    Jayuu
    Registered Users Posts: 742 ✭✭✭Jayuu


    markpb wrote: »
    I wonder how DB get these loading statistics. It can't be from their ticket machines because they aren't aware of stops, only stages. Possibly they have more detail now because of the GPS units but they've only been around for a few months which isn't enough time to judge properly.

    Some of the choices seem a bit random if you ask me. For example there are two consecutive information signs at stops in Fairview outbound but they're not where you might expect them, in that there isn't one at Marino College which is a very busy stop but there is one just after Annesley Bridge which is never a busy stop.

    Then you have none outbound at all on the Malahide Road which is madness because the Fairview stops have information for the Malahide Road, the Howth Road and the Coast Road which is a huge amount of bus routes and so its hard to get a decent picture of what buses are arriving for the Malahide Road. It would make sense to have at least one at an early stop on the Malahide Road outbound so people can judge Malahide Road departures. I don't know what the story is on the Howth Road so I can't comment on whether its the same thing there.

    Finally then on the Malahide Road inbound you have two consecutive information signs at Coolock. Now the first of these happens to be my stop on the Malahide Road which will great for me when it becomes active but realistically its not a very busy stop so I can't work out the justification for it, apart from the fact that its the first stop where the 27 bus route rejoins the Malahide Road.

    Actually this information sign has been errected for weeks now but still hasn't been turned on. I don't know why this is the case but its kind of frustrating.

    So I'd like to see the justifications for the choices that have been made.


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    #171
    Cathaoirleach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 701 ✭✭✭Cathaoirleach


    No RTPI on the Old Bray Road between Shankill and Bray, why? It's a heavily used bus route serving all Dublin Bus commuters from Wicklow.

    There should be northbound RTPI at Shankill Church and the village at least.

    What about the southern end of the N11?


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    #172
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    Jayuu wrote: »
    Surely this is what the website is for (and the app once its developed). I use the website all the time now. If you drilldown to the lowest level and find the stop you want, you can then set that as you home location. Thereafter that's what opens when you access the site. That means in less than a minute I can check in real time exactly how long before buses on all on my potential routes will arrive. I check it first thing in the morning and make my decisions based on that. I have around 4 different bus routes that I can use and the exact one always varies on a day to day basis depending on the information I'm getting from the site.

    (I have a day off tomorrow, so I’m not trying to catch my usual bus.:)

    People in many, if not indeed most, cities in continental northern Europe, are used to an arrangement where they know what time the bus is due, and it arrives pretty much at that time. They don't need to look at a website.

    What use is an online site when I am planning my day the night before, or when I'm planning my departure from my workplace? I don't want to have to think about whether the bus is going to arrive on time. Apart from days when there are severe weather conditions, it does.
    Jayuu wrote: »
    And I can tell you as somebody who has commuted in the Malahide Road for almost ten years now that even leaving aside weather issues there is no real pattern to traffic on that road. Sometimes its backed up as far as Artane from around 07:45. Other times you can sail in as far as Donneycarney Church at 08:15 before you hit any sort of traffic.

    This is where the knowledge accumulated by Dublin Bus over the decades could come in. DB will surely have built up a bank of knowledge of traffic flows along (for example) the Malahide Road over the years. There may be no real pattern, on any given day, for the individual driver of a car in that traffic, but it must be known at this stage how long it takes to get a bus into town along the Malahide Road under normal conditions. I think timetables at individual stops should be able to reflect these years of knowledge.
    Jayuu wrote: »
    A piece of paper is never going to be as accurate as an online site and I would be very surprised if Dublin Bus bothered with something like that.

    Firstly, in many cities, it is as accurate as an online site.

    Secondly, maybe DB should bother (though “bother” isn’t the word I’d have chosen). One of the very good things about the printed timetable is that people notice if the bus is late and, in my experience they also notice if an early bus is going to discommode other (regular) passengers by its early departure. This leads to a better overall customer experience and can also help very much in refining timetables.

    One of the problems in Dublin is that nobody along the route knows whether the bus they are getting on is the 0700 from Townsend St., the 0720 from Townsend St., the 0740 from Townsend St., or some bus at some other time from Townsend St. The punters are just waiting for any bus from Townsend St. (or wherever), and all along the route they do not know whether it is late, early, on time or whether the bus even exists.

    In many, if not indeed most, cities in continental northern Europe it is noticed right from the very beginning if a bus does not arrive, or does not arrive on time, or arrives early.

    And it is noticed by all potential passengers right along the route. Because they know from the printed timetable what time any particular bus is due to arrive, and they’ve been planning their commute to and from work and their other daily tasks around it.

    DB never even tried it.:mad:

    Nobody expects that DB would get it perfectly right from the beginning, were they to try timetables individualised to the stops along each route. But, in my opinion, the electronic timetable stuff, and the associated costs, represent an unnecessary jump beyond what has been proven to work in other cities.


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    #173
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Cathaoirleach wrote: »
    No RTPI on the Old Bray Road between Shankill and Bray, why? It's a heavily used bus route serving all Dublin Bus commuters from Wicklow.

    There should be northbound RTPI at Shankill Church and the village at least.

    What about the southern end of the N11?

    I am assuming that DB and DRLCC/Wicklow CC have yet to agree on locations.

    Give them a chance - this thing is in its infancy at the moment.


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    #174
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    (I have a day off tomorrow, so I’m not trying to catch my usual bus.:)

    People in many, if not indeed most, cities in continental northern Europe, are used to an arrangement where they know what time the bus is due, and it arrives pretty much at that time. They don't need to look at a website.

    What use is an online site when I am planning my day the night before, or when I'm planning my departure from my workplace? I don't want to have to think about whether the bus is going to arrive on time. Apart from days when there are severe weather conditions, it does.



    This is where the knowledge accumulated by Dublin Bus over the decades could come in. DB will surely have built up a bank of knowledge of traffic flows along (for example) the Malahide Road over the years. There may be no real pattern, on any given day, for the individual driver of a car in that traffic, but it must be known at this stage how long it takes to get a bus into town along the Malahide Road under normal conditions. I think timetables at individual stops should be able to reflect these years of knowledge.



    Firstly, in many cities, it is as accurate as an online site.

    Secondly, maybe DB should bother (though “bother” isn’t the word I’d have chosen). One of the very good things about the printed timetable is that people notice if the bus is late and, in my experience they also notice if an early bus is going to discommode other (regular) passengers by its early departure. This leads to a better overall customer experience and can also help very much in refining timetables.

    One of the problems in Dublin is that nobody along the route knows whether the bus they are getting on is the 0700 from Townsend St., the 0720 from Townsend St., the 0740 from Townsend St., or some bus at some other time from Townsend St. The punters are just waiting for any bus from Townsend St. (or wherever), and all along the route they do not know whether it is late, early, on time or whether the bus even exists.

    In many, if not indeed most, cities in continental northern Europe it is noticed right from the very beginning if a bus does not arrive, or does not arrive on time, or arrives early.

    And it is noticed by all potential passengers right along the route. Because they know from the printed timetable what time any particular bus is due to arrive, and they’ve been planning their commute to and from work and their other daily tasks around it.

    DB never even tried it.:mad:

    Nobody expects that DB would get it perfectly right from the beginning, were they to try timetables individualised to the stops along each route. But, in my opinion, the electronic timetable stuff, and the associated costs, represent an unnecessary jump beyond what has been proven to work in other cities.

    To be fair I think that this is exactly what is planned. However it is going to take considerable time to roll out and considering the entire network is being redesigned would be pointless doing right now.

    Until earlier this year when the Automatic Vehicle Location and Control (AVLC) system was finally fully rolled out DB controllers/schedulers had no way of knowing how long buses were taking to get from one stop to another or where any bus was at a point in time other than calling a driver over the radio and asking him/her.

    Schedules were prepared on the basis of termini and (where applicable) driver handover points only.

    The AVLC system will facilitate schedulers in providing accurate information on running times right through the day and will at last allow them to prepare stop specific timetables that will be realistic. That is my understanding of what will ultimately be prepared for every route.

    A useful spin-off of the AVLC is the ability to provide RTPI to customers online, on-street and on-mobile. Most other cities do provide this facility already.

    This is an entire package - and it would be wrong to look at one area in isolation. Printed timetables are a very important part of it and will remain so.

    Initially they have started with providing intermediate times at one or two points along each route under the Network Direct project but as I understand it the plan is to do every stop. As I say though, that is a mammoth task and will take some time to roll out.

    Patience!


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    #175
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,436 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Until earlier this year when the Automatic Vehicle Location and Control (AVLC) system was finally fully rolled out DB controllers/schedulers had no way of knowing how long buses were taking to get from one stop to another or where any bus was at a point in time other than calling a driver over the radio and asking him/her.
    I'd have thought it would have been pretty easy to just equip a few buses with a cheap and simple GPS track logger and then download and analyze the tracks offline to get a good idea of average timings without going to the expense of a full blown AVLC system.


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    #176
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Alun wrote: »
    I'd have thought it would have been pretty easy to just equip a few buses with a cheap and simple GPS track logger and then download and analyze the tracks offline to get a good idea of average timings without going to the expense of a full blown AVLC system.

    And so how would controllers then actually control the bus service?

    The system is far more than just a scheduling tool.

    It is a basic requirement that any mass-transport company needs with which to run the business effectively. It gives schedulers information to schedule properly, controllers information with which to control the service effectively, and a positive spin-off is real time information.


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    #177
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,261 ✭✭✭markpb


    lxflyer wrote: »
    And so how would controllers then actually control the bus service?

    Come off it. The system is far more than just a scheduling tool. It is a basic requirement that any mass-transport company needs with which to run the business effectively.

    DB have been operating buses for a very long time, Network Direct is only a recent change. If I can work out how long my buses generally take to get to me at different times of the year, why can't DB do the same? Hundreds of buses running on the same routes for 24 years and somehow DB never managed to publish working timetables.

    GPS will make building up accurate data easier (as well as solving lots of other problems) but it wasn't impossible before this, they just didn't bother because they were content to take the easy way out and publish starting point timetables.


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    #178
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    markpb wrote: »
    DB have been operating buses for a very long time, Network Direct is only a recent change. If I can work out how long my buses generally take to get to me at different times of the year, why can't DB do the same? Hundreds of buses running on the same routes for 24 years and somehow DB never managed to publish working timetables.

    GPS will make building up accurate data easier (as well as solving lots of other problems) but it wasn't impossible before this, they just didn't bother because they were content to take the easy way out and publish starting point timetables.

    Mark with due respect this system is a win win for everyone and I really think we need to start looking forward and at the potential benefits that it can deliver rather than constantly carping about the shortcomings that have happened before.


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    #179
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,261 ✭✭✭markpb


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Mark with due respect this system is a win win for everyone and I really think we need to start looking forward rather than constantly carping.

    I'm not objecting to the system, I think it's great. However, there is no excuse for DB never publishing working timetables in the past. They didn't need GPS to find out how long the buses were taking, they have people with brains behind the wheel and a fleet of inspectors to double check.

    This is symptomatic of so many things in Ireland - we never try to incrementally improve something, we always go for the big, expensive project instead. And invariably, the big project is delayed or postponed so the person at the end has to wait.

    In the case of decent information at the bus stop, DB have had 24 years to publish working timetables and never bothered, constantly holding out hope that the government would pay for a fully fledged GPS system. There was nothing stopping them doing both except laziness.


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    #180
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    markpb wrote: »
    I'm not objecting to the system, I think it's great. However, there is no excuse for DB never publishing working timetables in the past. They didn't need GPS to find out how long the buses were taking, they have people with brains behind the wheel and a fleet of inspectors to double check.

    This is symptomatic of so many things in Ireland - we never try to incrementally improve something, we always go for the big, expensive project instead. And invariably, the big project is delayed or postponed so the person at the end has to wait.

    In the case of decent information at the bus stop, DB have had 24 years to publish working timetables and never bothered, constantly holding out hope that the government would pay for a fully fledged GPS system. There was nothing stopping them doing both except laziness.

    We could debate all day here about the past - probably better for another time tbh.

    The relevant issue in this discussion is the AVLC/RTPI system itself, which some people (not you) here bizarrely think is a waste of money.

    I am pointing out the benefits of it and that it is only part of the process. Full working timetables are another and as I understand it they are planned and will roll out across the network as the ND project is finalised.


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    #181
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,436 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    lxflyer wrote: »
    And so how would controllers then actually control the bus service?
    I never said they could! It would just have been a cheap and easy way to gather a good amount of statistical data to establish average journey times between stops, in preparation for creating something vaguely resembling a credible timetable, that's all.

    I understand that AVLC is a lot more than that, but you don't need a full blown AVLC to gather a lot of useful data.

    I'm also not saying that the AVLC/RPTI solution is a waste of time either, it's well overdue. All I'm saying is that a good number of years ago, for a fraction of the cost, they could already have gathered a lot of useful data on journey times without waiting for AVLC to be implemented.


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