Electronic bus stop timetables

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

Quite a few people still use the 44 in fact, despite what you're claiming - any of the 44s that I see generally have reasonable loadings. [...] it will have a clockface hourly timetable going forward integrated with the 61 between Dundrum and the city centre

My problem isn't the number of people using it, it's the state paying RPA and Dublin Bus to carry passengers on the same corridor. If DB are claiming that money is tight and routes need to be cut, the first routes to be cut should be those that duplicate rail routes and the buses and drivers redeployed to serve as rail feeders so the system as a whole is more efficient.

In the past, it wasn't feasible to do this properly because of the lack of integrated ticketing but in a few months, there should be no problem.

The 61 (and city centre to Gallops section of the 44) seems like a great way to waste money - at best a 30 minute wait for a bus service when there's a 5/10 minute tram service along the same route. It doesn't matter what people in the area asked for, the NTA should not be approving funding for this route.

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

My problem isn't the number of people using it, it's the state paying RPA and Dublin Bus to carry passengers on the same corridor. If DB are claiming that money is tight and routes need to be cut, the first routes to be cut should be those that duplicate rail routes and the buses and drivers redeployed to serve as rail feeders so the system as a whole is more efficient.

In the past, it wasn't feasible to do this properly because of the lack of integrated ticketing but in a few months, there should be no problem.

The 61 (and city centre to Gallops section of the 44) seems like a great way to waste money - at best a 30 minute wait for a bus service when there's a 5/10 minute tram service along the same route. It doesn't matter what people in the area asked for, the NTA should not be approving funding for this route.

I don't fully agree - there is a sizeable elderly population along the route that cannot walk to the LUAS and do need a bus service.

I see quite a few people travelling to/from the Eglinton Road area going south and that is not served by LUAS.
And if the timetable is clockface they will not be waiting as they'll know that the buses go at about the same minutes past each hour!

Wild Bill

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't fully agree - there is a sizeable elderly population along the route that cannot walk to the LUAS and do need a bus service.

I see quite a few people travelling to/from the Eglinton Road area going south and that is not served by LUAS.
And if the timetable is clockface they will not be waiting as they'll know that the buses go at about the same minutes past each hour!

I'm only talking about the 44 around Sandyford - around here the loads are tiny off-peak. Not unusual to see one completely empty (bar the driver).

As for reliability - been there. Waited for the bus!

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't fully agree - there is a sizeable elderly population along the route that cannot walk to the LUAS and do need a bus service.

That's fair enough but if DB are spending money on quiet routes for people who aren't paying for them, it means less money for routes which could carry more passengers and fare paying passengers. It's making their focus public transport instead of mass transport which might be philanthropic but it's not going to help them cut costs and attract new customers.

Also, I didn't suggest that they'd have to walk, the new and improved feeder bus would bring them the short distance to the nearest Luas stop instead of meandering along the Luas line.

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't fully agree - there is a sizeable elderly population along the route that cannot walk to the LUAS and do need a bus service.

That's fair enough but if DB are spending money on quiet routes for people who aren't paying for them, it means less money for routes which could carry more passengers and fare paying passengers. It's making their focus public transport instead of mass transport which might be philanthropic but it's not going to help them cut costs and attract new customers.

Also, I didn't suggest that they'd have to walk, the new and improved feeder bus would bring them the short distance to the nearest Luas stop instead of meandering along the Luas line.

I'm not sure where you are talking about Mark - I'm talking particularly about Dundrum to the city where there is a reasonably large number of elderly customers, and also areas not served by LUAS such as the area east of Milltown village.

There is no point in suggesting feeder buses along here as most LUAS stops between Dundrum and the city are inaccessible to buses.

The point is that not everyone is going into town or near the LUAS stops, and not all of the route is near the LUAS. There is a balance to be struck here and I think what DB have planned is doing just that. DB have a responsibility to provide both public and mass transport and I would hate to see a situation where they don't. This is a route where demand does exist and it is being recast (with less resources) in a way that still provides an acceptable service.

Where there clearly was not a need was along the unique section of the 14a route and those resources have now been redeployed elsewhere.

LXFlyer

Wild Bill wrote: »

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't fully agree - there is a sizeable elderly population along the route that cannot walk to the LUAS and do need a bus service.

I see quite a few people travelling to/from the Eglinton Road area going south and that is not served by LUAS.
And if the timetable is clockface they will not be waiting as they'll know that the buses go at about the same minutes past each hour!

I'm only talking about the 44 around Sandyford - around here the loads are tiny off-peak. Not unusual to see one completely empty (bar the driver).

As for reliability - been there. Waited for the bus!

That's where the text and online versions of RTPI come into play and you can check the status of the service at your stop if there is no on-street display.

LXFlyer

Incidentally what I would do with the 44 is remove the section along Ballyogan Road and into Ballyogan Estate where it really is pointless now, and have it operate directly along Kilgobbin Road instead.

The 44 is to be cut in terms of resources from 40/45 minutes frequency to 60 minutes in due course.

listermint

The use of the smartphone is increasing daily, So why do they not just concentrate their efforts on providing a live daily feed of GPS data to Applications developers. The continued pursuit of the timing system is only slowing down the project and has a huge cost, where as upkeep of a Live Data Feed would be the most minimal cost possible.

Ive seen and used some of the Apps available and they are fantastic but the inconsistency of live data from DB is appalling. Where is the common sense in this project. Its looks like an obvious one to increase customer numbers....

LXFlyer

listermint wrote: »

The use of the smartphone is increasing daily, So why do they not just concentrate their efforts on providing a live daily feed of GPS data to Applications developers. The continued pursuit of the timing system is only slowing down the project and has a huge cost, where as upkeep of a Live Data Feed would be the most minimal cost possible.

Ive seen and used some of the Apps available and they are fantastic but the inconsistency of live data from DB is appalling. Where is the common sense in this project. Its looks like an obvious one to increase customer numbers....

I do think that the two go in tandem - you need both on street displays and the text/online facilities.

The vast majority of people do not have smart phones, particularly older people, and I think for the bus to become attractive you need to provide both.

The estimated journey times are (as I understand it) being refined as feedback comes in from the displays/public, and experience with AVLC, but in certain cases you cannot legislate for events such as unexpected traffic congestion.

Incidentally it is rather interesting to note that London does not provide online/text information but only on-street!

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

The 44 is to be cut in terms of resources from 40/45 minutes frequency to 60 minutes in due course.

What's the point in running the bus at all? With a half hour frequency, it's not going to attract many customers and with a better frequency, it'll be a bigger waste of money.

lxflyer wrote: »

Incidentally it is rather interesting to note that London does not provide online/text information but only on-street!

Actually, they do but I totally agree with you, providing the information online is not good enough for the vast majority of customers. Less than 20% of the population have smartphones. Most of the rest have regular phones but expecting them to pay to send text messages to find out when their bus is coming is unacceptable.

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

What's the point in running the bus at all? With a half hour frequency, it's not going to attract many customers and with a better frequency, it'll be a bigger waste of money.

It's part of the remit of providing public transport, which DB has in addition to providing mass transport.

In this particular case it is more about providing a public service.

As I have pointed out several times there are a lot of elderly people on that section, along with areas not served by LUAS (the area eastward from Milltown village), and most of them use the bus.

The overall frequency will be less than it was with the 44/48a (dropping from effectively every 20 minutes to every 30) - I really think you're being over the top on this so it is not fair to say that resources are not being redeployed.

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

Actually, they do but I totally agree with you, providing the information online is not good enough for the vast majority of customers. Less than 20% of the population have smartphones. Most of the rest have regular phones but expecting them to pay to send text messages to find out when their bus is coming is unacceptable.

That is not live yet - it is still only on street.

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

It's part of the remit of providing public transport, which DB has in addition to providing mass transport.

In this particular case it is more about providing a public service.

As I have pointed out several times there are a lot of elderly people on that section, along with areas not served by LUAS (the area eastward from Milltown village), and most of them use the bus.

The overall frequency will be less than it was with the 44/48a (dropping from effectively every 20 minutes to every 30) - I really think you're being over the top on this so it is not fair to say that resources are not being redeployed.

Public transport is being provided by Luas - I don't see the point of the replication. Like I said, I think the money would be better spent providing short-hop feeder services to the Luas which would be useful to lots of people instead of driving an almost empty bus all the way to and from the city centre for a few people who can't walk but could get the feeder bus.

To be honest, I'm a little annoyed that my bus services were downgraded and removed (or scheduled to be removed) but it's perfectly acceptable for some old ladies in Dundum to have their choice of Luas and empty bus. I'm annoyed that myself and my wife were forced to cancel our annual bus tickets but the old ladies of Dundum who don't pay a cent will continue to have their two public transport services.

Anyway, we're off topic, my apologies.

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

Public transport is being provided by Luas - I don't see the point of the replication. Like I said, I think the money would be better spent providing short-hop feeder services to the Luas which would be useful to lots of people instead of driving an almost empty bus all the way to and from the city centre for a few people who can't walk but could get the feeder bus.

To be honest, I'm a little annoyed that my bus services were downgraded and removed (or scheduled to be removed) but it's perfectly acceptable for some old ladies in Dundum to have their choice of Luas and empty bus. I'm annoyed that myself and my wife were forced to cancel our annual bus tickets but the old ladies of Dundum who don't pay a cent will continue to have their two public transport services.

Anyway, we're off topic, my apologies.

Mark - the funadmental point is that there are estates on the Dundrum Road that are not within an acceptable walking distance of a LUAS stop, nor is the area from Milltown village eastward. Just take a look at the geography of some of those estates.

Those areas do offer sufficient patronage for the bus (be the customers elderly or not). The 44 is not empty that is my point nor is it replicating LUAS in those areas.

Perhaps people in your area did not make enough noise to retain the services (I don't know where you refer to), and maybe the service should not be changed, but I would hate to see a situation that you seem to want where people are left without public transport within an acceptable distance.

bk

markpb wrote: »

Less than 20% of the population have smartphones. Most of the rest have regular phones but expecting them to pay to send text messages to find out when their bus is coming is unacceptable.

Given that you can now buy an android smartphone for just €40 without a contract:

http://three.ie/shop/products/samsung-europa-black.html?_selectedTariff=prepay&_defaultPriceplan=9&utm_source=internal&utm_medium=banner&utm_campaign=homepage-hero-prepay-campaign

I'd be shocked if 5 years from now, everyone doesn't have a smartphone. Actually probably only three years at this rate.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

Given that you can now buy an android smartphone for just €40 without a contract:

http://three.ie/shop/products/samsung-europa-black.html?_selectedTariff=prepay&_defaultPriceplan=9&utm_source=internal&utm_medium=banner&utm_campaign=homepage-hero-prepay-campaign

I'd be shocked if 5 years from now, everyone doesn't have a smartphone. Actually probably only three years at this rate.

Younger people maybe, but not older. My mother doesn't have a mobile phone, smart or otherwise, and I'd know of quite a few people of the same vintage that wouldn't have one.

L1011

lxflyer wrote: »

Younger people maybe, but not older. My mother doesn't have a mobile phone, smart or otherwise, and I'd know of quite a few people of the same vintage that wouldn't have one.

My 59 year old mother has one, her 85 year old mother has one also. The chances of either of them being able to *use* them is extremely slight however. Both Android units. Doubt either has ever used the Marketplace and I've actually removed the APN from the mothers to prevent her killing her credit by mistake...

Cool Mo D

bk wrote: »

Given that you can now buy an android smartphone for just €40 without a contract:

http://three.ie/shop/products/samsung-europa-black.html?_selectedTariff=prepay&_defaultPriceplan=9&utm_source=internal&utm_medium=banner&utm_campaign=homepage-hero-prepay-campaign

I'd be shocked if 5 years from now, everyone doesn't have a smartphone. Actually probably only three years at this rate.

Pretty much every phone made in the last 5 years is capable of connecting online and getting bus information, you don't need a smart phone to have a basic web browser. But people aren't willing to pay to get the info: a good public transport service should provide it.

Seeing a bus stop with easy to read, comprehensive and accurate information is an advertisement for the service - non-bus-users are more likely to use the service if they can walk by a stop and instantly know when and where their bus is going. All important bus stops should have a timetable, route map, and arrival times.

Wild Bill

lxflyer wrote: »

That's where the text and online versions of RTPI come into play and you can check the status of the service at your stop if there is no on-street display.

One must hope so!

Wild Bill

lxflyer wrote: »

Incidentally what I would do with the 44 is remove the section along Ballyogan Road and into Ballyogan Estate where it really is pointless now, and have it operate directly along Kilgobbin Road instead.

It should go down from Hillcrest to the New Murphystown Rd (connecting to the Luas at Glencairn) and back onto the current route at the junction of Ballyoggan/Kilgobbin.

No need now to go down the Ballyogan road at all.

The 44 is to be cut in terms of resources from 40/45 minutes frequency to 60 minutes in due course.

God help public transport dependants in Stepaside, Kilternan and Enniskerry then!

Wild Bill

lxflyer wrote: »

Mark - the funadmental point is that there are estates on the Dundrum Road that are not within an acceptable walking distance of a LUAS stop, nor is the area from Milltown village eastward. Just take a look at the geography of some of those estates.

Those areas do offer sufficient patronage for the bus (be the customers elderly or not). The 44 is not empty that is my point nor is it replicating LUAS in those areas.

Agree. The "empty 44" problem starts at Sandyford where it becomes the only bus service - it is busy on the Sandyford Rd between Dundrum and Sandyford.

But it could be very greatly busier at, say, Lamb's Cross if the folk had real time information and a reasonable interval of service (realisticly 30 mins absolute max).

LXFlyer

Wild Bill wrote: »

One must hope so!

Well I have used the online version to check for a 44 northbound in Dundrum at the church and it worked perfectly - people will adapt as the system is fully rolled out.

Wild Bill wrote: »

It should go down from Hillcrest to the New Murphystown Rd (connecting to the Luas at Glencairn) and back onto the current route at the junction of Ballyoggan/Kilgobbin.

No need now to go down the Ballyogan road at all.

God help public transport dependants in Stepaside, Kilternan and Enniskerry then!

Hillcrest Road was not suitable for buses and had numerous accidents with cars when they did operate along it (including my father's!). That's why the 44 was re-routed via Sandyford Village.

I would suggest sticking with the existing route and just cutting out the Ballyogan detour. People who want to connect with LUAS could do so at Balally or Dundrum.

As for the reduction in frequency the reality is that going forward there will be:

City-Dundrum: 44 and 61
Dundrum-Sandyford: 44 and 44b (peak time) and 175 orbital (to Blackthorn Drive)
Sandyford Village: 44
Kilgobbin Road: 44 and 47
Stepaside-Enniskerry: 44

That level of service is more than appropriate. It should mean a half-hourly service between the city and Dundrum between the 44 and 61, Dundrum and Sandyford (at peak) between the 44 and 44b, and along Kilgobbin Road between the 44 and 47. A lot of work is being put into trying to integrate the schedules so that the frequency evens out.

South of Stepaside I really can't see a need for anything more than that.

Wild Bill wrote: »

Agree. The "empty 44" problem starts at Sandyford where it becomes the only bus service - it is busy on the Sandyford Rd between Dundrum and Sandyford.

But it could be very greatly busier at, say, Lamb's Cross if the folk had real time information and a reasonable interval of service (realisticly 30 mins absolute max).

People will have access to real time information via text and internet for those stops.

LXFlyer

On the topic of the displays, I did notice that several new ones operating yesterday so the rollout is continuing.

bk

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Pretty much every phone made in the last 5 years is capable of connecting online and getting bus information, you don't need a smart phone to have a basic web browser. But people aren't willing to pay to get the info: a good public transport service should provide it.

Seeing a bus stop with easy to read, comprehensive and accurate information is an advertisement for the service - non-bus-users are more likely to use the service if they can walk by a stop and instantly know when and where their bus is going. All important bus stops should have a timetable, route map, and arrival times.

Agree 100%, I was just making the point that everyone will have a smartphone in a few years and that as a priority the NTA should be doing everything they can to work with independent developers to give them the information they need to create innovative apps.

This includes GPS coordinates of all stops, street name of stops and routes that use the stop. Also full maps and coordinates of all bus routes and finally obviously the arrival data.

Preferably all in easily accessible web services and offered in an open source licensing (preferably something like Apache, allowing people to also create commercial apps).

I can imagine too, someday they might add RFID/NFC tags to all bus stops, which when you move your RFID/NFC enabled smartphone over opens a webpage with the upcoming arrival times of buses at that stop.

This would make it easy enough for even your 80 year old gran to use

markpb

bk wrote: »

I can imagine too, someday they might add RFID/NFC tags to all bus stops, which when you move your RFID/NFC enabled smartphone over opens a webpage with the upcoming arrival times of buses at that stop.

A QR Code would do the same thing

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

Agree 100%, I was just making the point that everyone will have a smartphone in a few years and that as a priority the NTA should be doing everything they can to work with independent developers to give them the information they need to create innovative apps.

This includes GPS coordinates of all stops, street name of stops and routes that use the stop. Also full maps and coordinates of all bus routes and finally obviously the arrival data.

Preferably all in easily accessible web services and offered in an open source licensing (preferably something like Apache, allowing people to also create commercial apps).

I can imagine too, someday they might add RFID/NFC tags to all bus stops, which when you move your RFID/NFC enabled smartphone over opens a webpage with the upcoming arrival times of buses at that stop.

This would make it easy enough for even your 80 year old gran to use

From www.transportforireland.ie

Can I access the information on the web or SMS?

Web and text messaging services are scheduled to be available after the on street signs are rolled out later in 2011. All 5,000 bus stops served by Dublin Bus will be covered by these services. You will then be able to access real time passenger information from your phone and the internet for every Dublin Bus stop.

Will an app be created for smartphone users?

As part of the web and mobile based services due to be launched by year-end, we are also developing an app for smartphone users. The National Transport Authority intends that where feasible that data will also be opened up for use by third party applications.

LXFlyer

A further update on www.transportforireland.ie

Why were some bus stops selected and not others?

Here are maps of where RTPI signs are planned to be deployed – subject to esb connections and other considerations. There will be some additional locations for Commercial Bus Operators

RTPI Locations for Dublin Bus (1.94MB PDF File) | RTPI Locations for Bus Eireann (1.63MB PDF File)

For the location rationale, see below.

Sign locations are based on where they will provide information to the greatest number of bus passengers, and to include as many main routes as possible. Factors taken into account include:

(1) The number of bus services and the number of existing and potential passengers using the stops each day.

(2) Locations near to key services like shopping districts or key public buildings.

(3) Proximity to Quality Bus Corridors (QBCs).

(4) Proximity to major transport interchanges.

Unfortunately, there can’t be an information sign at every stop, and even some qualifying bus stops will not have an associated on-street sign. This is because the cost of providing the signs at a particular location may be much greater than normal due to the nature of the actual site or the works which would be required. However, all 5,000 Dublin Bus stops will be included on the website and SMS phone services when launched.

bk

markpb wrote: »

A QR Code would do the same thing

Unfortunately not quiet as good as I'm suggesting. QR Code requires you first launch a QR code reading app, not something I can see my gran doing.

Ideally with RFID/NFC, you don't have to launch any app, just wave your phone near the tag and your phone should automatically launch the browser on the relevant webpage.

This should be simple enough even for your gran to use. Also RFID/NFC is better for blind people.

Of course most Smartphones don't have RFID/NFC readers yet, so it isn't much use today. But I'm thinking five years down the line.

Start with QR codes today and add RFID/NFC tags down the line when it becomes standard in smartphones.

As an aside, Apple, Google, etc. could make using QR code reading by building support directly into the OS. Then you could just hold the smartphone camera in front of a QR code and it would automatically launch the browser, with no need to first launch a QR code reading app. Interesting idea, but it might not be doable due to battery constraints.

lxflyer thanks for the info, very good. Unfortunately that map isn't much use, some of those black circles could be 4 or 5 different stops!!

In the meantime, QR codes would be a good start. Add RFID/NFC

LXFlyer

The maps are somewhat useless for the city centre - a list would be far more helpful, but they do give a good indication of how widespread the displays will be.

BrianD

lxflyer wrote: »

A further update on www.transportforireland.ie

That PDF of the Dublin region does really demonstrate who radial our bus system still is.

Smartphone usage is now at 37% and they estimate that Smartphone and Feature Phones combined add up to about 50% of the market.