Electronic bus stop timetables

frankymail

We live in Ireland, these place names were Originally in Irish before they were changed to suit others. I think it's important that these signs, regardless of who uses them should have the place names in Irish. If one thing was to remain in Irish from here on in I feel that place names are one of the most important things to remain rooted to their origins.

What harm would it be even to rule out the English 'place name' from common use and replace it with the Irish. It could take a while and would clearly have to be done in Phases but it really would make no odds.

On a seperate note, these signs look like they could help the shoddy transport network at least a little. Intergrated Ticketing now and we're sorted. Nach bhfuil?

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MYOB wrote: »

The OLA and its provisions just allow a tiny, shouty group to be awkward and think they're winning.

And, my, do we shout loudly! Good luck, buddy!

markpb

frankymail wrote: »

We live in Ireland, these place names were Originally in Irish before they were changed to suit others.

I think you'll find that that's patently untrue in Dublin. O'Connell St (or An Lar as DB customers probably know it better ) was previously Drogheda Street and Sackville St. Most of areas in Dublin have only come into existence in the last forty years when English was far more prominent than Irish.

L1011

frankymail wrote: »

We live in Ireland, these place names were Originally in Irish before they were changed to suit others.

Actually, a vast amount of them were never in Irish. We're talking specifically about Dublin here, lots of areas named by the Brits or by 20th Century housing developers.

The older names were generally transformed in to Irish from their actual original names given to them in the Viking era (and in some cases the English comes from this, e.g. Leixlip).

Very very few Dublin places have an "original" in Irish.

frankymail wrote: »

I think it's important that these signs, regardless of who uses them should have the place names in Irish. If one thing was to remain in Irish from here on in I feel that place names are one of the most important things to remain rooted to their origins.

See above for there "origins"

frankymail wrote: »

What harm would it be even to rule out the English 'place name' from common use and replace it with the Irish. It could take a while and would clearly have to be done in Phases but it really would make no odds.

Massive harm. Most people do not know the Irish names for places. Information signs that don't inform are pointless.

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frankymail wrote: »

What harm would it be even to rule out the English 'place name' from common use and replace it with the Irish. It could take a while and would clearly have to be done in Phases but it really would make no odds.

This is still on the cards, Frankymail.

Dún Laoghaire was originally Kingstown, before independence.

Cobh was originally Queenstown

They tried to change Bray to Brí Chualainn, but the likes of the people here refused it.

I would be in favor of changing names back to Irish, as long as they are easy to spell for English-speakers. eg
- Dundrum = Dún Droma
- Bray = Bré
- Shankill = Seanchill

We need to wait a generation for this to happen though. Overhaul of Irish in schools and more Gaelscoils.

L1011

That username is already in use. wrote: »

This is still on the cards, Frankymail.

Dún Laoghaire was originally Kingstown, before independence.

Cobh was originally Queenstown

They tried to change Bray to Brí Chualainn, but the likes of the people here refused it.

I would be in favor of changing names back to Irish, as long as they are easy to spell for English-speakers. eg
- Dundrum = Dún Droma
- Bray = Bré
- Shankill = Seanchill

We need to wait a generation for this to happen though. Overhaul of Irish in schools and more Gaelscoils.

I rather think the recent return to Newbridge, Charleville, Navan, Kells and indeed Baegnalstown over the attempts for the Irish versions show that this is, again, a delusion.

The country is never going to use Irish placenames outside the Gaeltacht and indeed, not very much within it either.

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MYOB wrote: »

Very very few Dublin places have an "original" in Irish.

Absolute bullsh!t. Of course the British street names don't have original Irish ones. They were streets laid out by the British.

But you think that there are "very few" Gaelic place names in Dublin? Wow. Maybe you need to have another look at the bilingual singage that you hate so much.

L1011

That username is already in use. wrote: »

Absolute bullsh!t. Of course the British street names don't have original Irish ones. They were streets laid out by the British.

But you think that there are "very few" Gaelic place names in Dublin? Wow. Maybe you need to have another look at the bilingual singage that you hate so much.

Maybe if you actually lived over here, you'd be aware that Dublin Bus stops are generally named after streets.

And aware that Dublin street signs generally have made up 'translations' of streets named entirely in English. Or aware that the "Gaelic" for many places is a bastardisation of pre-Irish names from other languages.

But you don't, so you're not.

sdanseo

MYOB wrote: »

I don't feel any right to complain about bus stop design in Connemara.

The chances of you having to use a bus stop in Connemara may be remote, but people from the country do often come to Dublin and may want to read the signs.

Irish should be kept alive, I'd say about half the people in this city only know a cúpla focail purely BECAUSE of bilingual signage.

As for costing a huge amout to get the software to flick from Irish to English - on yer bike. It's not an expensive job if it's possible and if it is, well sorry but Bus Átha Cliath, to give them their official name, should have thought of it if it's bloody well legislated for, shouldn't they!

I do see your point, but the law is the law and all that. Pfffft. How many people speak scottish or welsh, yet their respective puppet psuedo-governments legioslate for bilinguity as well.

L1011

sdonn wrote: »

I do see your point, but the law is the law and all that. Pfffft.

The law is an ass, as the term goes. Badly written law designed to appease O'Cuiv's mates.

Getting back to the practicality of this: its completely and utterly pointless due to the lack of actual Irish names for most of the places the signs will ever show; only makey-up translations. Take a look at the picture used to open the thread:



Only Rathmines has an actual Irish name and not an invention. Most inbound buses terminate at places with no actual Irish language name; and I'd say over half of outbound ones do too - for instance the routes to Maynooth (which does have an Irish name) will shortly be terminating in "Meadowbrook" and "Moyglare Hall" (and currently terminate at "Kingsbry" and "Opp. Glenroyal S/C"). Not one of those existed prior to 1980, all are named in English, and one of them is named after a manor house which also never had an Irish name. The signs are going to need to state this due to the fact that they're in the region of a mile and a half apart.

If our agitator gets a pointless change rolled out, all he'll get will be bolloxed up translations shown for 3 seconds a go; at a cost to the state. He'll feel all smug inside, and then rarely if ever get to see the fruits of his labour.

L1011

To add to the above, the "brook" in Meadowbrook is called the Joan Slade and it also has no recorded Irish name, so I'll be interested to see what gibberish is developed to put on the bus scrolls for it....

partyatmygaff

These are informative signs designed to inform all bus users. All bus users understand English, very few would understand the sign if it was in Irish. It would be a bit pointless to create an information system in a language people hardly understand let alone use. Making up Irish placenames in 2011 in a futile attempt to bring the language in to greater use is a waste of time.

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MYOB wrote: »

But you don't, so you're not.

I agree with you that many Dublin City street names are English, then tranlasted to Irish.

However, the DB digital displays show the destination, and you have to admit, the vast majority of those destinations are English bastardisations of the Irish.



Ballinteer - Baile an tSaoir
Nutgrove - Ceathrú an Notaigh

It doesn't matter though, because once you see these native Irish names flashed up on the screen, you will hate them, as you simply do not have any time for the Gaelic language in your modern Anglo existence.

It makes me all the happier to know that some angry Boardsies are so pissed off at seeing Irish on public signage, and there's nothing they can do about it.

I'll be back with more complaints about certain people not following the rules.

partyatmygaff

That username is already in use. wrote: »

It doesn't matter though, because once you see these native Irish names flashed up on the screen, you will hate them, as you simply do not have any time for the Gaelic language in your modern Anglo existence.

Who here would recognise "Ceathrú an Notaigh" as being Nutgrove? I'd wager a guess and say less than 5% of Bus users would recognise the name. No one calls Nutgrove Ceathrú an Notaigh so why should a supposedly informative sign purposefully make itself less useful by displaying placenames in a language that's incomprehensible to 95% of the country?

Jayuu

Another expensive waste of time and money from the Irish-language fascists! Are the signs going to put the Irish language in italics then? :rolleyes:

The irony is that this is the sort of action that is ultimately self-defeating in that actually creates the backlash against the language as people realise the cost and pointlessness of it.

One would wish that Dublin Bus would fight this tooth and nail in order to provoke the Government in rescinding or altering the Act in order to reflect the reality that the vast majority of us while having no problem with Irish would prefer that we didn't have it forced down our throats in meaningless ways every day by people who don't even live in the places that they are affecting.

Its a pity FG have backed down on their plan to make Irish optional for the LC. Once that had gone through it would have been easier to make the case for changing this stupid act which costs us millions that we can't afford for no added benefit whatsoever.

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partyatmygaff wrote: »

why should a supposedly informative sign purposefully make itself less useful by displaying placenames in a language that's incomprehensible to 95% of the country?

Yeah, just a slight issue with the constitution of Ireland - the country you're from?

Article 8
1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.


Yeah, that kinda sucks, for you. We'd need a REFERENDUM to remove the national language of Ireland (Irish) and make English the first and only language of the State.

Is that going to happen? Would the Irish people vote to make English the first and only language of the Republic of Ireland? I think not.

Reform the curriculum and boost funding for Gaelscoils.

Until then, you're all stuck with An Ghaeilge, the language that you all detest.

dubbie82

I wonder how other countries manage to avoid the language issue???
Switzerland has four official languages and if you are in a area where people speak french they keep the signs in French, if you are in the german speaking area the signs are in german etc.

L1011

That username is already in use. wrote: »

However, the DB digital displays show the destination, and you have to admit, the vast majority of those destinations are English bastardisations of the Irish.

I've already covered this - they're not. You don't know Dublin at all. Most buses destinations are either city centre or a suburban area - only the routes which follow DUTC tram lines are likely to have Irish-language native destinations and even some of them aren't (e.g. 66A/B go to the very much viking Leixlip)

That username is already in use. wrote: »

Ballinteer - Baile an tSaoir
Nutgrove - Ceathrú an Notaigh

As far as I know, "Ceathrú a Notaigh" is made up - Nutgrove being the name given to the area.

That username is already in use. wrote: »

It doesn't matter though, because once you see these native Irish names flashed up on the screen, you will hate them, as you simply do not have any time for the Gaelic language in your modern Anglo existence.

No, I'll be angry that state resources are being pissed down the drain for your whims. I don't hate them - this is a construct you have invented.

That username is already in use. wrote: »

It makes me all the happier to know that some angry Boardsies are so pissed off at seeing Irish on public signage, and there's nothing they can do about it.

Proving my point - you only want this to be awkward and to force your views on others.

L1011

That username is already in use. wrote: »

.

Until then, you're all stuck with An Ghaeilge, the language that you all detest.

Fix the broken record.

We hate ridiculous wastes of public money. You love causing them.

dubhthach

--Mod hat on!--
Folks be nice if you want a pointless discussion about the status of Irish please go to the relevant mind-numbing thread in Politics forum. (all 230 pages of it)

Can we also not have posters calling other posters Fascists.

The thread is suppose to be about Electronic timetables, not about etymology of placenames so please stay on the topic.

--Mod hat off!--

To state my personal preference: I attended an Irish speaking bhunscoil in the 80's so I quite like Irish, however I don't want to see threads derailed with minor nitpicking.

Regarding cost I'm assuming the signs can be set to flick to an alternate list say every 15-30seconds without any great cost --alot of these panels tend to have that functionality, however as has been pointed out alternating between the likes of "Marlborough St" <=> "Sr Marlborough" (Sráid) is abit silly if you ask me. In general I'm not in favour of implementing such a scheme.

Of course one option would be for Dublin Bus to just rename some of their stations to remove the "St." section. As a result Marlbourgh St. -> Marlbourgh etc etc.

LXFlyer

What I find particularly offensive about all of this is not the fact that someone complained about this. Whether or not we agree with the complaint, they are perfectly entitled to do so under the laws of the land as they stand, however daft (or not they may be).

However, I do find it rather nauseating that the said complainant then comes onto a public forum to my mind gloat about this. Most of the posts after the initial one from that individual appear to be of that nature. What is to be gained by doing that? Why not just make the complaint and leave it like that? Behaving in this manner really does not win you any more friends, rather you just get peoples' backs up. I've made plenty of submissions to official bodies, but I don't then go online to boast about it to all and sundry.

However turning to the displays themselves, I would imagine that the displays could be altered to just display route numbers and minutes - that would eliminate the need for translated destinations.

I'm heading to Cardiff at the weekend and will have a look at their electronic displays to see how they handle the two language scenario.

partyatmygaff

That username is already in use. wrote: »

Yeah, just a slight issue with the constitution of Ireland - the country you're from?

Article 8
1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.


Yeah, that kinda sucks, for you. We'd need a REFERENDUM to remove the national language of Ireland (Irish) and make English the first and only language of the State.

Sounds like a good idea for a referendum. Let's re-arrange the order of the languages to reflect the true language of the people of today and not of the people of four hundred years or so ago. While we're at it we should make it that all signage is to be bilingual only in areas where there is a significant majority of people who are fluent Irish speakers. Otherwise they serve no purpose other than to increase costs to an already strained economy.

Is that going to happen? Would the Irish people vote to make English the first and only language of the Republic of Ireland? I think not.

No but they certainly would vote to reduce inefficiencies in public transport spending.

Until then, you're all stuck with An Ghaeilge, the language that you all detest.

It's people like you that come around to gloat at people who fill cause the downfall of the Irish language. It says quite a lot about the state of the language that you need to actually force people to make use of it and then gloat about how the people are obliged to include it on signage.

dubhthach

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Sounds like a good idea for a referendum. Let's re-arrange the order of the languages to reflect the true language of the people of today and not of the people of four hundred years or so ago. While we're at it we should make it that all signage is to be bilingual only in areas where there is a significant majority of people who are fluent Irish speakers. Otherwise they serve no purpose other than to increase costs to an already strained economy.

No but they certainly would vote to reduce inefficiencies in public transport spending.


It's people like you that come around to gloat at people who fill cause the downfall of the Irish language. It says quite a lot about the state of the language that you need to actually force people to make use of it and then gloat about how the people are obliged to include it on signage.

Please keep the thread on topic. If you want to have a political discussion (this applies to:That username is already in use. as well) on the status of the Irish language do so in the relevant forum (Politics/Gaeilge etc.). This forum is for discussions of Infrastructure projects

Otherwise I'm going to start handing out infractions.

LeinsterDub

I know the system is still in the trial phase but will share an experience anyway decided to wait for a 4 after the Leinster match last Friday instead of jumping a taxi as it was only 7 minutes off . Bloody thing was a 4C took me ages to get home, these things need to be 99.9% accurate mistakes like the bus running a different route can't happen if people are to trust the signs

eia340600

<<--SNIP-->> <<--Mode Alert!-->>
I had warned above about disruptive posting on the status of Irish language. If you have an issue with my decision please PM me.
Dubhthach
<<--SNIP-->>

greyed

Jesus grow up lads, there are far more pressing economic concerns than the irish language, go bitch about them!

As far as the displays are concerned, as a computer science student I can tell you that implementing dual langauges is quite trivial and would not involve additional cost.

markpb

greyed wrote: »

As far as the displays are concerned, as a computer science student I can tell you that implementing dual langauges is quite trivial and would not involve additional cost.

You're in for a steep learning curve when you enter the real world of software development Changing the code will take 1% of the time. Agreeing the change request, approving the change request fees, scheduling the work, getting a list of the Irish-ised placenames, QAing the thing, deploying it to production, testing the deployment, etc will all take time and money. The company that own/produce the system are not going to do it for free.

greyed

markpb wrote: »

You're in for a steep learning curve when you enter the real world of software development Changing the code will take 1% of the time. Agreeing the change request, approving the change request fees, scheduling the work, getting a list of the Irish-ised placenames, QAing the thing, deploying it to production, testing the deployment, etc will all take time and money. The company that own/produce the system are not going to do it for free.

Ah ****e, ok :P

dubhthach

markpb wrote: »

You're in for a steep learning curve when you enter the real world of software development Changing the code will take 1% of the time. Agreeing the change request, approving the change request fees, scheduling the work, getting a list of the Irish-ised placenames, QAing the thing, deploying it to production, testing the deployment, etc will all take time and money. The company that own/produce the system are not going to do it for free.

It's even more fun when the company has gone bust and the legacy platform been sold off to third party or just plain not maintained

Johnny Whelan

How much is this costing? And what's the point in knowing when the bus is coming when you're already at the bus stop? You need to know before you leave your house.