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Depression

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Comments

  • #932
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,312 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    thebaz wrote: »
    fairly scary results , only 25 % have not suffered from it - thats 75 % that have
    Something I simply don't buy. Not unless the Boards demographic consists of a far higher proportion of mental illness than the general population. I'm sure the demographic would be slightly skewed on that score. Online relationships and cultures may be more welcoming and easier to navigate for emotionally sensitive types of people.

    That said it could go the other way too. The internet as well as providing support might increase the rates or trajectory of the illnesses. Look at self harm/cutting etc. Almost unknown 20 years ago. Not even in the medical literature outside of seriously disturbed people, now every second person with a mental illness (or even just your average mopey teenage emo) is cutting and the rates are increasing. http://www.crpsib.com/whatissi.asp#rates http://www1.wsws.org/articles/2004/sep2004/harm-s23.shtml Is that genetic? Are those in the UK genetically different to the rest of europe, never mind the world? Are they that culturally different? It's certainly not "genetic". Not in a million years. Pro anorexia sites and the like also wouldn't help. IMHO it's a thin line between online support, through misery loves company, to egging each other on about how miserable ye all can be. Even as far as making it somehow fashionable to be thus. A very thin line.
    kumate_champ07 wrote: »
    ye I cant believe they use that term but they dont actually test you for chemical imbalances, what exactly is the imbalance? low serotonin levels is usually mentioned but as far as I know they dont even do a physical test for that but give you medication that physically effects your serotonin production
    Yep and if a doctor tells you its down to such an imbalance, ask him or her for a test to confirm that level in the brain. Be specific about the latter. Watch the reaction. Hint: there isnt such a test as serotonin breaks down in the blood, or the cells utilise it themselves. You can't measure it accurately in the living brain. There is a test to measure the breakdown chemicals left over, but it's hardly accurate and indeed is more useful for other purposes as these chemicals go up in certain cancers. And contrary to popular how these drugs work or don't as the case may be is very much up in the air. They may actually make things worse long term.

    Ditto for some forms of therapy and illness. Post traumatic stress? You would think the talking cure would help there? Not so much it seems, may even make things worse http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb4345/is_8_35/ai_n29374947/ The drug therapy does nada beyond placebo/sugar pill. For the majority of individuals the "condition"(natural reaction to an emotional trauma more like) will pass with zero input from outside.

    But but, depression is different of course? It has to be. Or is it? Back in the 60's the Head of the National institute of mental health in the US said “Depression is, on the whole, one of the psychiatric conditions with the best prognosis for eventual recovery, with or without treatment.”(emphasis mine) http://bipolarblast.wordpress.com/2011/02/10/depressionstudies/ No? Too old an opinion? OK check out the attached PDF "The naturalistic course of major depression in the absence of somatic therapy.PDF" at the bottom. Translation; what happens if you leave it alone. You want more? I can keep firing off study after study that shows drug therapies make the outcome of depression in most individuals worse. Not better. They may even be implicated in turning unipolar depressive episodes into more chronic bipolar illness. There's at least the guts of a question over these things.

    IMHO The most compelling question should be: While many will bemoan the lack of services, the simple fact is we have never had so many drugs therapies and talk therapies and social support for mental illness in this country(and in the west). You think the stigma is bad today compared to before? Are you serious? We've never had so many shrinks or counselors or therapists. Yet we're told the rates of mental illness are going up. To the degree of it being an"epidemic!!", more than one in four, or by this poll one in four isn't suffering from a mental illness. That's daft and this quite simple does not compute. Pick any area of medicine you like and aim resources at it and the cure/maintenance rates go down. They don't bloody well spike and increase. So either this is being massively overdiagnosed, or the therapies don't work(statistically provable in a few areas) or they make it worse or more chronic particularly the drug therapies(again statistically provable in a few areas). Or a mixture of both. To be fair some forms of talking therapy does seem to work for many in easing symptoms.

    I've just been shocked over the last 10-20 years how much we've imported the US model of mental illness and health in general. I've been seriously shocked with the rates of people seeking therapies and juiced up on goofballs. It is my humble opinion that these therapies, very much in particular the drug therapies are very similar to our over reliance on antibiotics over the last 50 years. An over reliance we're paying for now. Like antidepressants antibiotics are and were serious effin wonder drugs. They did and do work on saving many lives. But what did we do with the antibiotics? We fired them at mild stuff, even fired them at viruses(and I guarantee a fair few readers think they work for them). We fired them at bugs that would have gone away naturally. And what happened? Anti biotic resistance and people with lowered resistance. Both the medical profession and the patients were to blame too. We all want the pill for every ill. For me the parallels are very strong. I'd put a large bet down that I'll be proven more right than wrong if this gets read in 20 years time(if not sooner).

    My (doubtless very unpopular) 3 cents.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #933
    Naikon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,564 ✭✭✭Naikon


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Something I simply don't buy. Not unless the Boards demographic consists of a far higher proportion of mental illness than the general population. I'm sure the demographic would be slightly skewed on that score. Online relationships and cultures may be more welcoming and easier to navigate for emotionally sensitive types of people.

    That said it could go the other way too. The internet as well as providing support might increase the rates or trajectory of the illnesses. Look at self harm/cutting etc. Almost unknown 20 years ago. Not even in the medical literature outside of seriously disturbed people, now every second person with a mental illness (or even just your average mopey teenage emo) is cutting and the rates are increasing. http://www.crpsib.com/whatissi.asp#rates http://www1.wsws.org/articles/2004/sep2004/harm-s23.shtml Is that genetic? Are those in the UK genetically different to the rest of europe, never mind the world? Are they that culturally different? It's certainly not "genetic". Not in a million years. Pro anorexia sites and the like also wouldn't help. IMHO it's a thin line between online support, through misery loves company, to egging each other on about how miserable ye all can be. Even as far as making it somehow fashionable to be thus. A very thin line.

    Yep and if a doctor tells you its down to such an imbalance, ask him or her for a test to confirm that level in the brain. Be specific about the latter. Watch the reaction. Hint: there isnt such a test as serotonin breaks down in the blood, or the cells utilise it themselves. You can't measure it accurately in the living brain. There is a test to measure the breakdown chemicals left over, but it's hardly accurate and indeed is more useful for other purposes as these chemicals go up in certain cancers. And contrary to popular how these drugs work or don't as the case may be is very much up in the air. They may actually make things worse long term.

    Ditto for some forms of therapy and illness. Post traumatic stress? You would think the talking cure would help there? Not so much it seems, may even make things worse http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb4345/is_8_35/ai_n29374947/ The drug therapy does nada beyond placebo/sugar pill. For the majority of individuals the "condition"(natural reaction to an emotional trauma more like) will pass with zero input from outside.

    But but, depression is different of course? It has to be. Or is it? Back in the 60's the Head of the National institute of mental health in the US said “Depression is, on the whole, one of the psychiatric conditions with the best prognosis for eventual recovery, with or without treatment.”(emphasis mine) http://bipolarblast.wordpress.com/2011/02/10/depressionstudies/ No? Too old an opinion? OK check out the attached PDF "The naturalistic course of major depression in the absence of somatic therapy.PDF" at the bottom. Translation; what happens if you leave it alone. You want more? I can keep firing off study after study that shows drug therapies make the outcome of depression in most individuals worse. Not better. They may even be implicated in turning unipolar depressive episodes into more chronic bipolar illness. There's at least the guts of a question over these things.

    IMHO The most compelling question should be: While many will bemoan the lack of services, the simple fact is we have never had so many drugs therapies and talk therapies and social support for mental illness in this country(and in the west). You think the stigma is bad today compared to before? Are you serious? We've never had so many shrinks or counselors or therapists. Yet we're told the rates of mental illness are going up. To the degree of it being an"epidemic!!", more than one in four, or by this poll one in four isn't suffering from a mental illness. That's daft and this quite simple does not compute. Pick any area of medicine you like and aim resources at it and the cure/maintenance rates go down. They don't bloody well spike and increase. So either this is being massively overdiagnosed, or the therapies don't work(statistically provable in a few areas) or they make it worse or more chronic particularly the drug therapies(again statistically provable in a few areas). Or a mixture of both. To be fair some forms of talking therapy does seem to work for many in easing symptoms.

    I've just been shocked over the last 10-20 years how much we've imported the US model of mental illness and health in general. I've been seriously shocked with the rates of people seeking therapies and juiced up on goofballs. It is my humble opinion that these therapies, very much in particular the drug therapies are very similar to our over reliance on antibiotics over the last 50 years. An over reliance we're paying for now. Like antidepressants antibiotics are and were serious effin wonder drugs. They did and do work on saving many lives. But what did we do with the antibiotics? We fired them at mild stuff, even fired them at viruses(and I guarantee a fair few readers think they work for them). We fired them at bugs that would have gone away naturally. And what happened? Anti biotic resistance and people with lowered resistance. Both the medical profession and the patients were to blame too. We all want the pill for every ill. For me the parallels are very strong. I'd put a large bet down that I'll be proven more right than wrong if this gets read in 20 years time(if not sooner).

    My (doubtless very unpopular) 3 cents.

    Yes. well this is all and good...but the companies need to make a profit. What better way to dupe the masses than to whittle down the complexities of depression to a mechanical process whereby you take pills to ensure you conform. It does not seem very scientific when doctors suggest that you must "try" various brands to get the best match. Maybe depressed people are being duped? - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091023163346.htm


  • #934
    starviewadams
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,116 ✭✭✭starviewadams


    Would I be right in saying that the studies above mainly refer to general depression rather then bi-polar depression?


  • #935
    Buceph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,059 ✭✭✭Buceph


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Something I simply don't buy. Not unless the Boards demographic consists of a far higher proportion of mental illness than the general population. I'm sure the demographic would be slightly skewed on that score. Online relationships and cultures may be more welcoming and easier to navigate for emotionally sensitive types of people.

    That said it could go the other way too. The internet as well as providing support might increase the rates or trajectory of the illnesses. Look at self harm/cutting etc. Almost unknown 20 years ago. Not even in the medical literature outside of seriously disturbed people, now every second person with a mental illness (or even just your average mopey teenage emo) is cutting and the rates are increasing. http://www.crpsib.com/whatissi.asp#rates http://www1.wsws.org/articles/2004/sep2004/harm-s23.shtml Is that genetic? Are those in the UK genetically different to the rest of europe, never mind the world? Are they that culturally different? It's certainly not "genetic". Not in a million years. Pro anorexia sites and the like also wouldn't help. IMHO it's a thin line between online support, through misery loves company, to egging each other on about how miserable ye all can be. Even as far as making it somehow fashionable to be thus. A very thin line.

    Yep and if a doctor tells you its down to such an imbalance, ask him or her for a test to confirm that level in the brain. Be specific about the latter. Watch the reaction. Hint: there isnt such a test as serotonin breaks down in the blood, or the cells utilise it themselves. You can't measure it accurately in the living brain. There is a test to measure the breakdown chemicals left over, but it's hardly accurate and indeed is more useful for other purposes as these chemicals go up in certain cancers. And contrary to popular how these drugs work or don't as the case may be is very much up in the air. They may actually make things worse long term.

    Ditto for some forms of therapy and illness. Post traumatic stress? You would think the talking cure would help there? Not so much it seems, may even make things worse http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb4345/is_8_35/ai_n29374947/ The drug therapy does nada beyond placebo/sugar pill. For the majority of individuals the "condition"(natural reaction to an emotional trauma more like) will pass with zero input from outside.

    But but, depression is different of course? It has to be. Or is it? Back in the 60's the Head of the National institute of mental health in the US said “Depression is, on the whole, one of the psychiatric conditions with the best prognosis for eventual recovery, with or without treatment.”(emphasis mine) http://bipolarblast.wordpress.com/2011/02/10/depressionstudies/ No? Too old an opinion? OK check out the attached PDF "The naturalistic course of major depression in the absence of somatic therapy.PDF" at the bottom. Translation; what happens if you leave it alone. You want more? I can keep firing off study after study that shows drug therapies make the outcome of depression in most individuals worse. Not better. They may even be implicated in turning unipolar depressive episodes into more chronic bipolar illness. There's at least the guts of a question over these things.

    IMHO The most compelling question should be: While many will bemoan the lack of services, the simple fact is we have never had so many drugs therapies and talk therapies and social support for mental illness in this country(and in the west). You think the stigma is bad today compared to before? Are you serious? We've never had so many shrinks or counselors or therapists. Yet we're told the rates of mental illness are going up. To the degree of it being an"epidemic!!", more than one in four, or by this poll one in four isn't suffering from a mental illness. That's daft and this quite simple does not compute. Pick any area of medicine you like and aim resources at it and the cure/maintenance rates go down. They don't bloody well spike and increase. So either this is being massively overdiagnosed, or the therapies don't work(statistically provable in a few areas) or they make it worse or more chronic particularly the drug therapies(again statistically provable in a few areas). Or a mixture of both. To be fair some forms of talking therapy does seem to work for many in easing symptoms.

    I've just been shocked over the last 10-20 years how much we've imported the US model of mental illness and health in general. I've been seriously shocked with the rates of people seeking therapies and juiced up on goofballs. It is my humble opinion that these therapies, very much in particular the drug therapies are very similar to our over reliance on antibiotics over the last 50 years. An over reliance we're paying for now. Like antidepressants antibiotics are and were serious effin wonder drugs. They did and do work on saving many lives. But what did we do with the antibiotics? We fired them at mild stuff, even fired them at viruses(and I guarantee a fair few readers think they work for them). We fired them at bugs that would have gone away naturally. And what happened? Anti biotic resistance and people with lowered resistance. Both the medical profession and the patients were to blame too. We all want the pill for every ill. For me the parallels are very strong. I'd put a large bet down that I'll be proven more right than wrong if this gets read in 20 years time(if not sooner).

    My (doubtless very unpopular) 3 cents.


    I've gone through those links, apart from offering nothing conclusive in some, at least one of them deals with absolute bat**** insane levels of ridiculousness.

    They're talking about dealing with psychosis without drugs. Do you know what psychosis is? An inability to separate your thoughts and distinguish what reality actually is. Telling someone who has voices, or thinks that the tv is talking to them that they're just getting hidden messages from the back of their mind is absolutely, completely and utterly dangerous.



    I do agree that depression is being way, way over-diagnosed and anti-depressants are being over-prescribed. But that's a problem with the health service being rushed off it's feet. And doctors trained to treat chemically and having no training in other methods. That's why people need to insist on being treated properly. Find out who the conservative psychiatrists are. Read their papers (it's fairly easy to determine who hands out pills willy nilly and who doesn't, and tells you "Yes, your mother just died, you will feel upset :rollyeyes:")

    But saying don't seek help is ridiculous. In the past community ties were much stronger. There were loads of cases of people being "fatigued" and the community helping them through it. That's just not happening automatically anymore. No, don't ignore the problem, but keep in mind that doctors aren't capable of anything and everything, and the best help you might get could be from friends and family, from someone in your community (as Wolfe Tone said, I'm sure priests have dealt with this kind of thing a lot.) Look at your lifestyle, exercise more, eat healthily, get away from passive entertainment and get involved in things, try and adopt a regular lifestyle. It's when all of this seems impossible and not just hard that you start considering doctors. And at that point you need to start insisting that the doctors take you seriously. There are ways to get help out there, and it's not all down to taking one pill a night and having all your problems disappear. For a lot of people that shouldn't even be considered. But for some people, it absolutely is necessary.


    starviewadams wrote: »
    Would I be right in saying that the studies above mainly refer to general depression rather then bi-polar depression?

    Actually, it's not talking about "Depression" at all. But "Depressive episodes." Which are two completely different things. It's a bull**** tactic used by the conspiracy-groups to try and scare people.


    Edit: I also checked the impact factor of journals from some of those links' most extraordinary claims. And they seem extremely poor, verging on having no scientific merit at all.


  • #936
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,312 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Naikon wrote: »
    Yes. well this is all and good...but the companies need to make a profit. What better way to dupe the masses than to whittle down the complexities of depression to a mechanical process whereby you take pills to ensure you conform. It does not seem very scientific when doctors suggest that you must "try" various brands to get the best match. Maybe depressed people are being duped? - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091023163346.htm
    In that link she seems to be suggesting not that drugs don't work, but that they can rustle up better drugs that will based on her rat research. More pills for every ill. But I suppose the heel of the hunt is that as the song goes the drugs don't work(for many). More than one study has shown that for mild depression the SSRI type meds are next to useless. Placebo gets better results. Considering the very real side effects of SSRI type medications that's mad Ted. Now you could argue that in more extreme depression they are more effective and I would agree, but exercise is just as effective. May even be more so. Check out attached PDF. Basically this study looked at older depressed patients treated with either exercise on it's own, exercise plus an SSRI, or the SSRI on it's own. At the of 16 weeks those treated with just exercise were as mentally well as the other two groups and at the end of a year were doing better than either. Yea. Better. There are loads of these studies out there.
    starviewadams wrote: »
    Would I be right in saying that the studies above mainly refer to general depression rather then bi-polar depression?
    Yes. TBH it was the general and pretty huge effin rise in people I was bumping into that were being diagnosed as depressed that fascinated me. I didn't realy look at the bipolar end, but I have read that the incidence of bipolar have increased a lot in the last 40 years. This has been explained as better diagnosis, but it does seem to me anyway that there has been an extension of the criteria that garners a diagnosis and some environmental chnages too. Marijuana usage does have a correlation with an increased risk of it. As does the use of SSRI's if some studies are to be believed. Basically people who in the past might have had one depressive episode, now because of drug therapy may become more chronically mentally ill with bipolar like symptoms. check out the second PDF. That's the only one I have on bipolar though.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



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  • #937
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,312 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Buceph wrote: »
    I do agree that depression is being way, way over-diagnosed and anti-depressants are being over-prescribed.
    That's all I'm saying too.
    But saying don't seek help is ridiculous. In the past community ties were much stronger. There were loads of cases of people being "fatigued" and the community helping them through it. That's just not happening automatically anymore. No, don't ignore the problem, but keep in mind that doctors aren't capable of anything and everything, and the best help you might get could be from friends and family, from someone in your community (as Wolfe Tone said, I'm sure priests have dealt with this kind of thing a lot.) Look at your lifestyle, exercise more, eat healthily, get away from passive entertainment and get involved in things, try and adopt a regular lifestyle. It's when all of this seems impossible and not just hard that you start considering doctors. And at that point you need to start insisting that the doctors take you seriously. There are ways to get help out there, and it's not all down to taking one pill a night and having all your problems disappear. For a lot of people that shouldn't even be considered. But for some people, it absolutely is necessary.
    I agree. As I stated these are wonder drugs, but not to the degree that every second person is on the damn things or that 2/3 of the people chiming in on this thread are or have been clinically depressed.

    Actually, it's not talking about "Depression" at all. But "Depressive episodes." Which are two completely different things. It's a bull**** tactic used by the conspiracy-groups to try and scare people.
    Incorrect. The PDF I attached was talking about depression. Major depression. Here's another attached talking about depression. There are any number of others including WHO reports and studies that show that for low level depression(not depressive episodes either) SSRI's are no more effective than placebo.

    It's eff all to do with conspiracy groups. At no point did I say people should not seek help(indeed I would be of the opinion the CBT style therapy is very valuable). At no point do I say that these anti D drugs are useless. I even describe them as wonder drugs, so less of the hyperbole there Ted.

    I am saying that the rates bandied about are bullshít. That the efficacy and wisdom of using these very strong drugs in often self diagnosed so called "depressives" should be challenged. That there exists a large chunk of people who claim they're depressed who are more likely to be using it as a label for self centered and self indulgent behaviour so they can escape personal responsibility or actually growing up. Which I suppose is a mental health issue in of itself or a social one anyway.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #938
    Trog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 456 ✭✭Trog


    Naikon wrote: »
    This isn't trivial stuff. I take that as a given. I just want to point out that Doctors and "counsellors" may not be the best point of call for situations like this. Seek help, just be suspicious of any advice given by so called cash hungry "professionals". I get the impression these very medical professionals may lack knowledge about depression. Ticking off **** like "have you been "sad" for two weeks or more?" just mocks the severity of the illness.

    Are you in any way educated in the matter, or are you just having a go at the medical profession? Most councilors don't make much money, but still go through a lot of training to be able to do what they do. There are MANY volunteers involved in the mental health industry. Doctors who may not be adept at dealing with these matters are always able to refer to people who are.

    You have an ill-informed opinion about the issue, and if you were to recognize the gravity of the situation you wouldn't be throwing your ridiculous opinion around like this. Do you really think people go into the mental health field just to make money? If they're that 'cash hungry', then surely there's easier ways to do it than going through 6+ years of training?

    What you are basically doing is accusing people of having cynical motives on no evidence, and advising people against getting help which will probably save their lives based on these accusations. Have some cop on.

    Edit: I'll agree that depression tends to be over prescribed, but the mere act of seeking help from a professional makes such a huge difference, In my opinion most major cases would be minor cases if the above kind of attitude was dropped and people got help earlier.


  • #939
    Naikon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,564 ✭✭✭Naikon


    Trog wrote: »
    What you are basically doing is accusing people of having cynical motives on no evidence, and advising people against getting help which will probably save their lives based on these accusations. Have some cop on.

    There is plenty of research out there to support my "baseless" accusations.

    This guy sums up the whole AD culture better than I can in a paragraph:
    http://saveyourself.ca/articles/reality-checks/anti-depressants.php

    Take a look at the literature he links to. Irrespective of the Mental Health, you appear to take a pretty naive stance towards human motives. Do you actually understand the role of a corporation?
    It mostly boils down to profit at the end of the day. Seriously, do you think monoliths like Pfizer actually have other motives beyond "how can we maxmize profit?". It's a pretty simple concept.


  • #940
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,312 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Trog wrote: »
    Most councilors don't make much money, but still go through a lot of training to be able to do what they do. There are MANY volunteers involved in the mental health industry. Doctors who may not be adept at dealing with these matters are always able to refer to people who are.

    You have an ill-informed opinion about the issue, and if you were to recognize the gravity of the situation you wouldn't be throwing your ridiculous opinion around like this. Do you really think people go into the mental health field just to make money? If they're that 'cash hungry', then surely there's easier ways to do it than going through 6+ years of training?.
    I'd have to agree with Trog on this. There are defo a lot easier ways of making money. Counselors make eff all money. Not unless they're quacks aiming at the ladies who lunch brigade. This includes psychiatrists too BTW. They do extra training to make less money than they could have just by going into other specialties. I really don't think it's to do with money for the average mental health professional.

    Not in this country anyway. In the US I'd be more dubious as the whole medical field is very money driven and even with the best will in the word it would be easy to get caught up in that. Even so, a lot of yank doctors do pro bono clinic work.

    Where the money is made would be with the drug companies. Prozac or similar regularly shows up in the top ten perscription drugs per year. Even there, they do throw serious wonga at research. I am NOT one of those "oh noes, it's big pharma" neurotics, but still I do feel that the connections between drug companies and medicine are just a little too close for comfort.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #941
    Trog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 456 ✭✭Trog


    Yep, drugs companies are bad. There's overprescription in the medical profession generally. That must mean that EVERY medical professional involved in the mental health area are compromised. Or... Maybe... they genuinely want to help you. That's probably it, actually.

    You have a problem with global corporations who produce drugs. You are blaming local health professionals, the vast majority of whom have people's best interests at heart. I'm not saying people should neck every pill they're given, I'm saying people should seek help for their problems and talk to councilors. In severe cases it's necessary to seek medical help. You are advising them not to do so based on your assumption that all medical professionals are working in some form of evil plot to make drugs companies money.
    You seem to have a very narrow view of reality. When you go to a doctor, you aren't going to Pfizer for medical help, you are going to a doctor, who is there to help you. Yeah, corporations are all about profit. This is true. Well done on that. What has it got to do with my local doctor/councilor who is there to help me?

    The 'evidence' you provide does not suggest that people shouldn't seek help for their problems. So don't suggest they shouldn't.


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  • #942
    Naikon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,564 ✭✭✭Naikon


    Trog wrote: »
    The 'evidence' you provide does not suggest that people shouldn't seek help for their problems. So don't suggest they shouldn't.

    I never said people should not seek help. Just be aware of the possible consequences of an official diagnosis. Skepticism should be exercised.


  • #943
    ImMaria
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭ImMaria


    First off hello, my plan here is to be posting to the depression thread and this is my 1st time on these boards so I hope my question is in the right area! I have been suffering from depression for years now but I had really put myself in the "denial" mode as I really wasn't able to admit to myself nevermind to family or friends that I was depressed. Well here I am now after years where I can admit it and take action. I finally got the courage to go admit out loud and went and discussed how I was feeling with my doctor he suggested to take some time off work as if I kept working at my job without a break that I would probably end up draining myself. He had given me a prescription for some tablets a sick note for work and off I went. Well the sick note expired Monday so I went to see him again and he has extended my leave from work and put me on a different medication as I felt the one I was on wasn't really making feel any better. Obviously with all tablets it takes time for them to adjust to your body. I sent in my forms to Social Welfare for the illness benefit and received a letter saying I was eligible to receive it. The situation I'm in now is every time I go see my doctor it's 50 Euro plus the new tablets he put me on cost 42 Euro for a months supply and they take 2-6 weeks before your body may adjust to them and then of course take for as long as needed and when/if the day came where you felt you didn't need them anymore you would still need to continue taking them for months afterwards. I want to get better here but now that I'm out of work (with no sickness pay) I am receiving an illness benefit but once I paid the doctor and the tablets today the check I received was spent. Finally getting to a question here, I was looking for advice to see how you were affording to cope with the costs. I don't know how long I'll be out of work but would I be eligible for a medical card if every time I go visit my doctor he extends for leave from work? I feel I have taken a giant step here to be able to admit I have depression and I want to have it treated but now I don't know if I can afford too. This is really stressing me out and after paying 42 Euro for the tablets I'm afraid to take them as what if I can't afford the next months supply. Any advice would be appreciated.

    I'm so glad I found an area to discuss my illness and to know you understand how I'm feeling. I'm sorry that you have either been through this or are now dealing with it as in my mind it's not a very happy place to be. Some people just don't get it and don't understand it's an illness.

    Thank you for reading my post.
    Maria


  • #944
    Novella
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,713 ✭✭✭✭Novella


    ImMaria wrote: »
    First off hello, my plan here is to be posting to the depression thread and this is my 1st time on these boards so I hope my question is in the right area! I have been suffering from depression for years now but I had really put myself in the "denial" mode as I really wasn't able to admit to myself nevermind to family or friends that I was depressed. Well here I am now after years where I can admit it and take action. I finally got the courage to go admit out loud and went and discussed how I was feeling with my doctor he suggested to take some time off work as if I kept working at my job without a break that I would probably end up draining myself. He had given me a prescription for some tablets a sick note for work and off I went. Well the sick note expired Monday so I went to see him again and he has extended my leave from work and put me on a different medication as I felt the one I was on wasn't really making feel any better. Obviously with all tablets it takes time for them to adjust to your body. I sent in my forms to Social Welfare for the illness benefit and received a letter saying I was eligible to receive it. The situation I'm in now is every time I go see my doctor it's 50 Euro plus the new tablets he put me on cost 42 Euro for a months supply and they take 2-6 weeks before your body may adjust to them and then of course take for as long as needed and when/if the day came where you felt you didn't need them anymore you would still need to continue taking them for months afterwards. I want to get better here but now that I'm out of work (with no sickness pay) I am receiving an illness benefit but once I paid the doctor and the tablets today the check I received was spent. Finally getting to a question here, I was looking for advice to see how you were affording to cope with the costs. I don't know how long I'll be out of work but would I be eligible for a medical card if every time I go visit my doctor he extends for leave from work? I feel I have taken a giant step here to be able to admit I have depression and I want to have it treated but now I don't know if I can afford too. This is really stressing me out and after paying 42 Euro for the tablets I'm afraid to take them as what if I can't afford the next months supply. Any advice would be appreciated.

    I'm so glad I found an area to discuss my illness and to know you understand how I'm feeling. I'm sorry that you have either been through this or are now dealing with it as in my mind it's not a very happy place to be. Some people just don't get it and don't understand it's an illness.

    Thank you for reading my post.
    Maria

    Are you eligible for a medical card? If so, apply for one. This would cover the cost of your GP visit and your medication.

    I think you could post in this forum (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=862) if it's advice you are looking for. That's Long Term Illness.


  • #945
    cleremy jarkson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 542 ✭✭✭cleremy jarkson


    http://blog.ted.com/2006/09/26/paradox_of_choi/

    Rates of depression have exploded in the Western world in the last 40 or 50 years and I think this guy is onto something few people acknowledge.


  • #946
    ImMaria
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭ImMaria


    Thank you for your reply Novella, since I don't know when I will be well enough to go back work, it could be a week, 2 maybe, or a month for example so in a case like that I don't know if I would be eligible for a medical card! I guess wouldnt hurt trying. I will repost in the forum that you suggested.


  • #947
    Novella
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,713 ✭✭✭✭Novella


    ImMaria wrote: »
    Thank you for your reply Novella, since I don't know when I will be well enough to go back work, it could be a week, 2 maybe, or a month for example so in a case like that I don't know if I would be eligible for a medical card! I guess wouldnt hurt trying. I will repost in the forum that you suggested.

    I don't really know too much about social welfare etc., but if you spoke to your Community Welfare Officer and explained your situation then perhaps you'd qualify for an Extraordinary Needs payment. Even if you didn't he/she would be able to help you out and let you know what is available to you at the moment. Best of luck. :)


  • #948
    stupidusername
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭stupidusername


    I've been feeling like **** lately. my job isn't going so well because my memory and concentration are so bad as a result of the anti depressant i'm on. so i spoke to my doctor about it (new doc) and she told me I was wrong, that it wouldn't do that. just handed me another prescription. I told her i wanted to come off it and she wouldn't even entertain the idea. she said i should see a psychiatrist and i said i couldn't afford it. she said on the medical card i'll be entitled to it for free, and explained to her i already applied for it and they turned me down.

    great health system we have here. help for all, until you look for it.


  • #949
    Novella
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,713 ✭✭✭✭Novella


    stupidusername wrote: »
    I've been feeling like **** lately. my job isn't going so well because my memory and concentration are so bad as a result of the anti depressant i'm on. so i spoke to my doctor about it (new doc) and she told me I was wrong, that it wouldn't do that. just handed me another prescription. I told her i wanted to come off it and she wouldn't even entertain the idea. she said i should see a psychiatrist and i said i couldn't afford it. she said on the medical card i'll be entitled to it for free, and explained to her i already applied for it and they turned me down.

    great health system we have here. help for all, until you look for it.

    Can you not see a psychiatrist for free if you don't go private?


  • #950
    stupidusername
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭stupidusername


    Novella wrote: »
    Can you not see a psychiatrist for free if you don't go private?

    but that's what i'm saying. my doctor put in a request for me before to see someone publicly, but they refused me, said i wasn't a priority


  • #951
    Novella
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,713 ✭✭✭✭Novella


    stupidusername wrote: »
    but that's what i'm saying. my doctor put in a request for me before to see someone publicly, but they refused me, said i wasn't a priority

    Sorry, I didn't get you the first time!
    :confused: I've never heard of that happening before. Perhaps ask her for a second referral, or see a different doctor and get a referral from him/her. Or maybe just see if another doctor would change your prescription if you're not happy with it.


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  • #952
    stupidusername
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭stupidusername


    Novella wrote: »
    Sorry, I didn't get you the first time!
    :confused: I've never heard of that happening before. Perhaps ask her for a second referral, or see a different doctor and get a referral from him/her. Or maybe just see if another doctor would change your prescription if you're not happy with it.

    yeah that was my old doctor that did that. the one i saw the other day (that refused to let me come off my tablets or change them) said she'd sort it out. but i dont expect much. if i do get seen it'll probably be months.

    because i'm on SW moving and moving doctors is a big bloody ordeal. i will get around to it, but i just got her to sign my medical card form.


  • #953
    Odysseus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,752 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    stupidusername wrote: »
    but that's what i'm saying. my doctor put in a request for me before to see someone publicly, but they refused me, said i wasn't a priority

    Get your GP to do another referral stating that in their opinion you need to be assessed, to the best of my knowledge you cannot be refused a psych evaluation, if you GP sees a real need for one. As you need to be assessed in person in order to determine whether you need psych treatment or not. It cannot be done without physically interviewing you.

    Even if your not a priority, that should only effect the time scale you need to wait before being assessed. Out of interest are you based in Dublin? Best of luck with it.


  • #954
    Novella
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,713 ✭✭✭✭Novella


    stupidusername wrote: »
    yeah that was my old doctor that did that. the one i saw the other day (that refused to let me come off my tablets or change them) said she'd sort it out. but i dont expect much. if i do get seen it'll probably be months.

    because i'm on SW moving and moving doctors is a big bloody ordeal. i will get around to it, but i just got her to sign my medical card form.

    Oh sure, I know all about it! I've just moved miles and miles away from my GP and while I don't have a medical card, I still haven't got around to moving doctors. That's the thing about advice - it's usually easier said than done!

    I know how shit it is, all the waiting and kind of being stuck with a treatment that isn't really working for you and I know how disheartening it can get, but don't give up on it. Even if it does take months to get seen, and even if that doesn't work out, try again 'cause you will find someone or something that can help you and it makes all of this worthwhile.


  • #955
    stupidusername
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭stupidusername


    yeah i would've thought that it'd have been a matter of waiting times. maybe my doctor ****ed it up or something, but he sent a letter off, and he got a letter back saying they wouldn't take me as i wasn't considered high risk or something like that.

    yeah my new doctor is after sending off something now. so we'll see.


  • #956
    outofsteam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25 ✭outofsteam


    Naikon wrote: »
    Do you acknowledge the possibility of being assigned a label though? This is the primary reason people refuse to seek treatment. Seems pretty logical to me. You have to weigh up the potential gains/losses. I am aware of what Depression can do to people, but I would still hesitate to shout at the top of my lungs telling people not to "suffer in silence". The whole "chemical imbalance" stuff is mostly nonsense, though it sounds somewhat legitimate for the purpose of generating profit.

    Exercise caution. Don't go pouring your heart out until you have analysed all possible outcomes. Try to confide with people you know in non medical settings if possible.

    I can speak from experience re the whole labelling thing. I live with that everyday, at work, in the local shops. Because of my illness I was hospitalised, I had to go to hospital or else I was going to be sectioned. Now I'm the one on the outside for the last 4 years. I don't have any friends. I was one of the most outgoing bubbly girls you could meet. My phone was constantly going, as is normal for someone who has a close circle of friends. Now when it rings its either my mum or a survey from AIB or some such rubbish. If i had known that my life would have endedup like this I would've let them section me. That way I'd never have been allowed out of hospital back into this horrible narrowminded society we live in. I'm well educated, I'm a teacher, I try to teach children to become well-rounded individuals who carry no prejudice. Seems a bit pointless when the staffroom is so tense that I've taken to eating alone in my classroom.
    Ideal world, we all accept eachother. Real world, everyone's a mé-féiner


  • #957
    Bombbastic22
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 336 ✭✭Bombbastic22


    Well, was reading somewhere that the most consistently happy people are those that do things to help others - so get out there and do something good for someone! ! Smile at people even when you don't feel like it, be a little more understanding and patient and helpful with someone who irritates you for no good reason, take up a sport, eat a little healthier, keep body and mind active!

    I know that perhaps that might not always be the easiest thing to do but hey, your life is just like a spark in the fire and will fade just as quickly.

    It is hard not to be depressed, I must admit, what with the economy, joblessness, not being able to keep up with bills all the horrific natural disasters that seem to be happening all over the place and wondering if this really a world where you would want to bring kids into...oh wait I better stop typing.......I'm actually starting to depress myself........lol


  • #958
    Bombbastic22
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 336 ✭✭Bombbastic22


    outofsteam wrote: »
    I can speak from experience re the whole labelling thing. I live with that everyday, at work, in the local shops. Because of my illness I was hospitalised, I had to go to hospital or else I was going to be sectioned. Now I'm the one on the outside for the last 4 years. I don't have any friends. I was one of the most outgoing bubbly girls you could meet. My phone was constantly going, as is normal for someone who has a close circle of friends. Now when it rings its either my mum or a survey from AIB or some such rubbish. If i had known that my life would have endedup like this I would've let them section me. That way I'd never have been allowed out of hospital back into this horrible narrowminded society we live in. I'm well educated, I'm a teacher, I try to teach children to become well-rounded individuals who carry no prejudice. Seems a bit pointless when the staffroom is so tense that I've taken to eating alone in my classroom.
    Ideal world, we all accept eachother. Real world, everyone's a mé-féiner

    Woah, I hear you. That is pretty rough, people's predjudice certainly makes these things worse and people really can be pretty narrow minded.

    I have no idea what your interests are BUT if you want to meet a high concentration of really good open minded good people and at the same time do something healthy then I would recommend you do this http://www.caminodesantiago.me.uk/

    What with being a teacher I think it would be a great way for you to spend the summer! People from all walks of life from high and low levels of society, from all over the world. It's simpy back to basics - walking, talking, eating and sleeping! It may restore your faith in humanity, it did mine and the day after I got back my bike was stolen by someone I was selling it to who took it for a test spin and never came back. Quite funny in a way, but that's life I guess.


  • #959
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    Bombbastic22 wrote: »
    Well, was reading somewhere that the most consistently happy people are those that do things to help others - so get out there and do something good for someone! ! Smile at people even when you don't feel like it, be a little more understanding and patient and helpful with someone who irritates you for no good reason, take up a sport, eat a little healthier, keep body and mind active!

    I know that perhaps that might not always be the easiest thing to do but hey, your life is just like a spark in the fire and will fade just as quickly.

    It is hard not to be depressed, I must admit, what with the economy, joblessness, not being able to keep up with bills all the horrific natural disasters that seem to be happening all over the place and wondering if this really a world where you would want to bring kids into...oh wait I better stop typing.......I'm actually starting to depress myself........lol

    I salute your enthusiasm and positive attitude, but on the basis of what you have written, you clearly have no understanding whatsoever of depression.

    Despite that, I'm sure you're a good person to be around!


  • #960
    stupidusername
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭stupidusername


    Bombbastic22 wrote: »
    It is hard not to be depressed, I must admit, what with the economy, joblessness, not being able to keep up with bills all the horrific natural disasters that seem to be happening all over the place and wondering if this really a world where you would want to bring kids into...oh wait I better stop typing.......I'm actually starting to depress myself........lol

    yes, lol indeed


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  • #961
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    stupidusername wrote: »
    yes, lol indeed

    Be gentle on them...they are part of the group that do not suffer from depression, but they are carriers who are passing it on to people and don't realise it.


This discussion has been closed.
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