Nurofen and Bloody Chemists

Alicat · 17-03-2011 07:47PM

this is arse wrote: »

ah, i don't actually have IBS, duh!

it's how you get around the questioning. not many pharmacists are gonna question you further about a condition with two of the most common symptoms being flatulence and diarrhea.

Fairly incompetent pharmacists in your area tbh....wouldn't be depending on them for any medical advice! Not that you care because all you're looking for is your Nurofen plus, but just something to be aware of next time you have an actual medical complaint.

ShooterSF · 17-03-2011 07:56PM

KilaWhale wrote: »

Apologies if my post sounded pedantic. I am a pharmacist, not exactly a new one but I would like to think that I am still as 'on the ball' as the most recent graduates. I do not own my own business and therefore the 'selling for profit' argument does not apply to me.

I understand the frustration many people have with obtaining codeine products in recent months. The stories of interrogation and intimidation by pharmacists have shocked me and I find it difficult to understand how two adults cannot have a sensible discussion about what type of product may be best (from both perspectives - the patient must respect that the pharmacist has spent four years learning about these medicines and of course the pharmacist must respect that the patient often knows from experience which product works best for them).

From my own humble point of view, I believe that these codeine-containing products rightfully have a place in the 'non-prescription' category as they do provide valuable pain relief to many people. I treat people with respect when they ask for such products and many seem to be surprised when I suggest Nurofen Plus for an injury instead of the Solpadeine which they requested (if I feel that ibuprofen might be more appropriate than paracetamol for their specific pain). My main priority is ensuring that they dont unintentionally become dependent on such products when self-medicating for a chronic pain.
If someone tells me that they are have tried paracetamol before for acute pain and it has not worked for them, I have no problem in giving them codeine containing products for acute use as long as they know about the side effects etc.

However, I have refused to sell these products in the past to patients who do not behave in a responsible manner when requesting the product - if you act like an adult to me, I will act like an adult in return. I do not feel that there is any point in making up stories about period pains etc as, as long as you explain your situation to me in a rational manner, I will do my best to help. I cannot vouch for other pharmacists in these situations but the vast majority of my close friends would agree. Obviously, sometimes these exchanges become confrontatinal (about 5% of the time!) I do not think that it is fair to put this down purely to the inexperience of some pharmacists as it is often just as likely that a patient's unsavoury attitude may contribute to the problem. (I am not saying that is what happened in your case but in the interests of fairness, all sides must be considered!:))

Finally, it is disheartening to hear about your experiences with other pharmacists but please do not tar all of us with the one brush. This post is not intended to belittle your original post OP as I understand what a bad toothache feels like! It is merely intended to highlight that most of us are not acting like brats or on a power trip - often these publicised exhanges are due to a combination of inexperience and frustration on both parts.
K:)

A lot of fair points but I would take issue with the piece in bold. I have spent years dealing with the public and while it would be nice if everyone came in smiling but people have off days especially if they're in pain. They should be dealt with based on their pain and that alone (and even then I still don't agree with this system)

Gummy Panda · 17-03-2011 07:56PM

Karsini wrote: »

My sister claims that only Nurofen Express works for her, it can't even be bought in Ireland.

I think they're called Nurofen Fast Relief in Ireland. They're liquid capsules.

i-digress · 17-03-2011 07:57PM

this is arse wrote: »

ah, i don't actually have IBS, duh!

it's how you get around the questioning. not many pharmacists are gonna question you further about a condition with two of the most common symptoms being flatulence and diarrhea.

Pharmacists get people coming in talking about bowel problems all the time. Usually the only person who is embarrassed is the person with the problem.

Long term conditions such as IBS generally require a doctor's note. I have fibromyalgia, and my pharmacist told me that they weren't allowed to sell medicine that was for a long term complaint.

yammycat · 17-03-2011 08:00PM

i-digress wrote: »

Pharmacists get people coming in talking about bowel problems all the time. Usually the only person who is embarrassed is the person with the problem.

I went to a pharmacy looking for something for hemorrhoids and got laughed at by the two girls behind the counter.

17-03-2011 08:01PM

yammycat wrote: »

I went to a pharmacy looking for something for hemorrhoids and got laughed at by the two girls behind the counter.

Really? If so then that's very unprofessional.

ShooterSF · 17-03-2011 08:01PM

Kimono-Girl wrote: »

if you read my entire post you would have seen i am all for people taking responsibilities for their own actions, in fact i believe it's a must!

the part you quoted me with was me asking would you consider someone who willingly takes an addictive drug responsible?

oh and no i am not a pharmacist. like i said these points i am making are in my opinions,and just from my inferior knowledge on the subject!

I think we're having a problem based on two different meanings of "responsible".

While I may not think an action is a responsible one I still think the person taking said action, having been informed of the risks, should be allowed to do so and should be considered responsible for his/her action.

i-digress · 17-03-2011 08:05PM

yammycat wrote: »

I went to a pharmacy looking for something for hemorrhoids and got laughed at by the two girls behind the counter.

That's awful. I've IBS and I've never had any issue with pharmacy staff. I guess it's like any profession, there's good one's and bad one's

yammycat · 17-03-2011 08:09PM

i-digress wrote: »

That's awful. I've IBS and I've never had any issue with pharmacy staff. I guess it's like any profession, there's good one's and bad one's

yea, I was going to ask to see the pharmacist but I couldn't be arsed (boom boom) and just left it

Lightshow · 17-03-2011 08:28PM

KilaWhale wrote: »

Apologies if my post sounded pedantic. I am a pharmacist, not exactly a new one but I would like to think that I am still as 'on the ball' as the most recent graduates. I do not own my own business and therefore the 'selling for profit' argument does not apply to me.

I understand the frustration many people have with obtaining codeine products in recent months. The stories of interrogation and intimidation by pharmacists have shocked me and I find it difficult to understand how two adults cannot have a sensible discussion about what type of product may be best (from both perspectives - the patient must respect that the pharmacist has spent four years learning about these medicines and of course the pharmacist must respect that the patient often knows from experience which product works best for them).

From my own humble point of view, I believe that these codeine-containing products rightfully have a place in the 'non-prescription' category as they do provide valuable pain relief to many people. I treat people with respect when they ask for such products and many seem to be surprised when I suggest Nurofen Plus for an injury instead of the Solpadeine which they requested (if I feel that ibuprofen might be more appropriate than paracetamol for their specific pain). My main priority is ensuring that they dont unintentionally become dependent on such products when self-medicating for a chronic pain.
If someone tells me that they are have tried paracetamol before for acute pain and it has not worked for them, I have no problem in giving them codeine containing products for acute use as long as they know about the side effects etc.

However, I have refused to sell these products in the past to patients who do not behave in a responsible manner when requesting the product - if you act like an adult to me, I will act like an adult in return. I do not feel that there is any point in making up stories about period pains etc as, as long as you explain your situation to me in a rational manner, I will do my best to help. I cannot vouch for other pharmacists in these situations but the vast majority of my close friends would agree. Obviously, sometimes these exchanges become confrontatinal (about 5% of the time!) I do not think that it is fair to put this down purely to the inexperience of some pharmacists as it is often just as likely that a patient's unsavoury attitude may contribute to the problem. (I am not saying that is what happened in your case but in the interests of fairness, all sides must be considered!:))

Finally, it is disheartening to hear about your experiences with other pharmacists but please do not tar all of us with the one brush. This post is not intended to belittle your original post OP as I understand what a bad toothache feels like! It is merely intended to highlight that most of us are not acting like brats or on a power trip - often these publicised exhanges are due to a combination of inexperience and frustration on both parts.
K:)

Thanks for taking the time to post this. It's a refreshing change to the "my mate's a pharmacist so I know everything" approach (that some here have taken)

As I've said previously, at no stage did the conversation turn nasty or difficult, I requested, she declined, I left and purchased next door. It was only after I left the shop that I begun to feel like I'd just been treated like some sort of low life or junkie.

I don't tar all those in your profession with the same brush either. Again, as I've said previously in this thread that the guy up the street was very understanding, asked the necessary questions and sold me the product. I've also stated that I would normally seek their advice as an alternative to going to the doctor as it saves me a fortune.

The problem here is that the way you are dealt with as a customer in relation to this varies hugely from place to place.

Kurtosis · 17-03-2011 08:50PM

Lightshow wrote: »

But these products (nurofen plus, solpadine) have been passed as being suitable for over the counter sale to the general public, not on prescription or hospital only, whether you agree with that or not. Once this decision has been made that's that. There's no further room nor need for individual pharmacists to decide for themselves if they'll sell them or not. That's beyond their remit.

There is a requirement to ensure that a medicine will be safe and appropriate for the patient, as well as that the product is being used in accordance with its product licence. These require input from individual pharmacists.

KilaWhale · 17-03-2011 10:50PM

ShooterSF wrote: »

A lot of fair points but I would take issue with the piece in bold. I have spent years dealing with the public and while it would be nice if everyone came in smiling but people have off days especially if they're in pain. They should be dealt with based on their pain and that alone (and even then I still don't agree with this system)

Yes, I agree ShooterSF. I may have some across as sounding more harsh than intended in that sentence. I suppose the scenarios to which I am referring are not the typical gruff or unfriendly exchanges. It is difficult to describe what I mean - I suppose I am less likely to oblige when someone clearly has a fake story made up and attempts to intimidate me into selling a product. I am not a fool and have no intention of blushing if someone tells me their most intimate secrets when trying to obtain these products. In fact, it would serve to heighten my concentration (not suspicion as I am not naturally suspicious of everyone). All I expect is an honest, grown-up exchange (it does not need to be very friendly or indeed civil as long as there is mutual respect). As I say, cases outside of this are well outside the norm (5% was probably too high a figure but that's why I'm not a statistician:D!)

I do realise that this may be controversial as it can be perceived as a power trip when in reality, for me (I can only speak for myself I suppose), this is not the case. I am fortunate in gaining enough experience to recognise that chronic pain and temporary pain brings out the worst in people's personalities (unsure of correct punctuation there!) and understandably so. I do judge patients on their pain and not their general behaviour.

However, if I encounter someone who I may have reason to believe has a problem, (it has happened infrequently but is worth remembering that there is a reason for the guidelines) possibly due to repeated requests for the same products over a period of time, I will offer advice and eventually refuse sale (based on my own ethics AND the new guidelines). The regulations are there as a safeguard for these types of scenarios but that most of us (I apologise for the royal 'we') practised this logic long before the regulations came into force.

This may (or may not!) have clarified my original post. I am a down to earth person and experience pain/toothache/period pain/headaches like the next person and fortunately, my job helps me to put these minor exchanges/requests into perspective.
Thanks

Autosport · 17-03-2011 10:58PM

I go to a different part of the country if i want to such items

KilaWhale · 17-03-2011 11:01PM

Lightshow wrote: »

The problem here is that the way you are dealt with as a customer in relation to this varies hugely from place to place.

I agree that this is the crux of the matter. Individual human personality plays a huge part in this whole debate - some are over-cautious, some are overbearing and on the other hand, some are too laid-back in confronting the abuse problem WHEN it arises.
Would it be fair to say that the way you are treated as a pharmacist in relation to this varies hugely from customer to customer? (Yes, I am playing devil's advocate here

).

As you will understand, I first became indignant when I read your post as the 'bloody chemists' title was still ringing in my ears (or in my eyes if that is more correct here?!) but I appreciate that I was not there to witness that exchange and that you were treated with unfair suspicion. This was the reason for my 'tarring with the same brush' comment. Glad to hear that your opinion of us has not dipped permanently. I suppose the best way to look at it is just to brush it off and try to visit a pharmacy where you feel more comfortable in the future. Did you get the tooth sorted out in the end?:p

ShooterSF · 17-03-2011 11:15PM

@KilaWhale

That's fair enough and I realise it's hard to put one's own emotions aside when dealing with the public at the best of times!

I still don't agree with the current system but it's not your or any other pharmacists problem. The law should be that once the customer has been informed of the risk they are free to purchase at their own risk.

I worked for years as a barman and still do the odd job and the law that said I was responsible if I served someone who was drunk pissed me off no end. It was their decision to get drunk and continue drinking and it should be their responsibility if they continue drinking and anything happens after I have informed them that I think they've had enough. I say this as someone who has gotten into some serious states in my time but know whose fault it is if something happened me (me).

Ultimately all these laws do is say to the public "you aren't capable of making decisions for yourself but it's ok we won't hold you responsible if you mess up"

17-03-2011 11:30PM

The Nanny state that this f##cking country has become is bordering on fascist. Adults can't buy a drink in an off license after 10pm????? Ridiculous.

Aishae · 17-03-2011 11:37PM

codeine is not just potentially addictive - it really really does affect your body adversely with long term use. and yes 'every now n again' counts as long term use if 'every now n again' goes on for years. i was prescribed solpadeine by my gp - to accompany another pain killer (it boosts the effect) - i was only taking it for a year and a half. the state of my stomach now... and i wont even mention the bowel probs - a specialist was trying to diagnose something - took weeks. asked various questions 'when did it start' etc. then he thought to check what meds i was on. 'ah codeine... '

so - its not just pharmacists being snotty, taking power trips or a nanny state gone ott. i know that all meds carry side effects some more than others. well meds with codeine in it are on the higher end of the 'some more than others' spectrum

gosuckonalemon · 18-03-2011 02:36AM

Lightshow wrote: »

Secondly, I think it's important to get back to the main point here, namely that the pharmacists HAVE NOT been put in a position whereby they are expected to police the sale of these items. The regulations merely state that they are required to inform the customer of the possible side effects / addiction issues of said products. Some just take it upon themselves to overstep the mark and judge their customers.

As for the poor Pharmacists feeling like their being taken for mugs, perhaps they should take up a sport or some other hobby which would help build their confidence a bit and help them to get over whatever inadequacies they clearly have which are interfering with them doing their job.

Pharmacists can indeed refuse to sell anything you anything they damn well please. But why would they? It's not their place to decide what should and should not be sold to the public. That's the responsibility of the Dept. for Health. If it's not restricted to prescription only then sell the damn thing and get over yourself.

Lightshow wrote: »

You're arguing semantics with me here. Drugs are indeed graded as a result of clinical trials by medical experts but overall responsibility for their findings still rests with the Dept for Health.

But these products (nurofen plus, solpadine) have been passed as being suitable for over the counter sale to the general public, not on prescription or hospital only, whether you agree with that or not. Once this decision has been made that's that. There's no further room nor need for individual pharmacists to decide for themselves if they'll sell them or not. That's beyond their remit.

You have no idea what your on about. I think this is the reason why so many people are getting angry when refused these medicines. They seem to think they are entitled to them for some reason.

gosuckonalemon · 18-03-2011 02:38AM

o1s1n wrote: »

I had some surgery on Tuesday. Had a really long pin removed from my leg. It was a lot more painful than I thought it would be and it was only under local. The doctor even seemed surprised at the amount of pain that was coming from the bone and reckon it should probably have been done under general.

My mam went to the chemist in the hospital to get some Nurofen plus and they refused. Would only give her Paracetamol instead. She told them I'd just had surgery and was in a lot of pain so they gave her standard Nurofen. 'As it doesn't contain codeine'.

So as a result I spent a couple of days in a lot more pain than I should have.

Nice one chemist!

You mean nice one Doctor for not prescribing any painkiller after surgery?

gosuckonalemon · 18-03-2011 02:41AM

this is arse wrote: »

Me: Could i have some neurofen plus?
Chem: Have you taken it before?
Me: Yes
Chem: What's it for?
Me: IBS

No more questions asked and nurofen given. Works most times.

You do realise nurofen does nothing to treat IBS and excessive use causes ulceration of the stomach, don't you?

Debthree · 18-03-2011 03:30AM

But they make you have a **** on Aer Lingus flights. Buy panadol and have a private **** instead.

Lightshow · 18-03-2011 11:42AM

KilaWhale wrote: »

I agree that this is the crux of the matter. Individual human personality plays a huge part in this whole debate - some are over-cautious, some are overbearing and on the other hand, some are too laid-back in confronting the abuse problem WHEN it arises.
Would it be fair to say that the way you are treated as a pharmacist in relation to this varies hugely from customer to customer? (Yes, I am playing devil's advocate here ).

As you will understand, I first became indignant when I read your post as the 'bloody chemists' title was still ringing in my ears (or in my eyes if that is more correct here?!) but I appreciate that I was not there to witness that exchange and that you were treated with unfair suspicion. This was the reason for my 'tarring with the same brush' comment. Glad to hear that your opinion of us has not dipped permanently. I suppose the best way to look at it is just to brush it off and try to visit a pharmacy where you feel more comfortable in the future. Did you get the tooth sorted out in the end?:p

I'm afraid I haven't had it sorted yet actually. I'm not working at the moment and haven't had a decision on a medical card made by the HSE yet (that's a rant for another day) but the pain has subsided now so I'm back to being human for the time being.

Thanks again for your posts on this thread. It's refreshing to have someone explain their position through facts and experience rather than just shouting YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT from the sidelines without actually furthering the debate through facts or references.

I apologies to you if the title of the thread got your back up somewhat. That wasn't the intention, I was still in considerable pain at the time of posting I'm afraid.

Just as a matter of interest, what were your personal opinions of these regs as they were being drawn up? For/against and why?

ballsymchugh · 18-03-2011 02:54PM

Lightshow wrote: »

I'm afraid I haven't had it sorted yet actually. I'm not working at the moment and haven't had a decision on a medical card made by the HSE yet (that's a rant for another day) but the pain has subsided now so I'm back to being human for the time being.

ring around the dentists in your local area and price them for
a. emergency extraction
b. emergency first stage root canal
c. prescription

tell them you don't want a check up, although if you've been paying PRSI for a few years you may get one free anyway.
sounds like you have an infection there that may need antibiotics first, depending on the severity. the antibiotics should knock that for a few weeks. if you can't, then manage the pain with basic nurofen and paracetamol, alternating between the two. can be just as effective as codiene.

KilaWhale · 18-03-2011 10:00PM

Lightshow wrote: »

Just as a matter of interest, what were your personal opinions of these regs as they were being drawn up? For/against and why?

Lightshow, I suppose I have conflicting emotions towards these regulations. On the one hand, they could belittle the profession as a pharmacist's intervention is now almost seen as strict adherence to regulations rather than an intrinsic professional obligation.
On the other hand, the regulations have proven somewhat useful as an additional defence against chronic use of the products as it gives us a more public stance and people are definitely more aware of the issues before each consultation.

I feel it is important to mention this one point however. I am lucky in that I know my regular customers and have very little problems with this issue on a day to day basis. However, I have friends (one in particular) where codeine abuse is a very REAL problem among their customer base so it is understandable that some innocent parties may come under some unfair scrutiny whilst contending with the issue. I am not talking about people taking Solpadeine to treat a hangover. I am referring to the minority (significant nonetheless) who dissolve up to 20 soluble codeine/paracetamol tablets in water as a daily drink or those who pop a few before each meal. This is a more common practice than many think.

As you will hopefully realise from reading my posts, I am a fairly level-headed and down to earth person. It is not in my nature to dramatise. However, there is a very real problem in some areas (no particular stereotypes to be honest) and so, whilst poking fun at or making vague statements about personal responsibility etc can be entertaining and lighthearted on an anonymous forum, they serve no purpose in reality.

I don't intend for this post to sound like a lecture...maybe I have just fallen into the unintentional 'power-tripping' pharmacist trap

19-03-2011 04:38AM

Kimono-Girl wrote: »

i really do not understand? how is allowing people who make a decision to take an addictive drug responsible? how can someone be called responsible when they decide to take an addictive substance?

I've decided to take codeine plenty of times.. Am I irresponsible? No. The last time I had codeine was about a year ago.
I don't get your point at all.. I said that allowing people some responsibility is a good thing and you come back with that?

Metallitroll · 19-03-2011 04:51AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Am I irresponsible? No.

what about that aids scare you had and made a thread on sometime back

came up a negative? too right :pac: i was really worried man.. really.

19-03-2011 09:22AM

An "aids scare".. So thinking of getting tested constitutes a scare now? Would have thought that was pretty responsible to think about doing it.
15yr olds like yourself don't have to worry about that sort of thing yet.

Kidchameleon · 19-03-2011 10:07AM

Go to the Dentist

bleg · 19-03-2011 10:44AM

Oh look this thread again.

Lightshow · 19-03-2011 01:34PM

KilaWhale wrote: »

Lightshow, I suppose I have conflicting emotions towards these regulations. On the one hand, they could belittle the profession as a pharmacist's intervention is now almost seen as strict adherence to regulations rather than an intrinsic professional obligation.
On the other hand, the regulations have proven somewhat useful as an additional defence against chronic use of the products as it gives us a more public stance and people are definitely more aware of the issues before each consultation.

I feel it is important to mention this one point however. I am lucky in that I know my regular customers and have very little problems with this issue on a day to day basis. However, I have friends (one in particular) where codeine abuse is a very REAL problem among their customer base so it is understandable that some innocent parties may come under some unfair scrutiny whilst contending with the issue. I am not talking about people taking Solpadeine to treat a hangover. I am referring to the minority (significant nonetheless) who dissolve up to 20 soluble codeine/paracetamol tablets in water as a daily drink or those who pop a few before each meal. This is a more common practice than many think.

As you will hopefully realise from reading my posts, I am a fairly level-headed and down to earth person. It is not in my nature to dramatise. However, there is a very real problem in some areas (no particular stereotypes to be honest) and so, whilst poking fun at or making vague statements about personal responsibility etc can be entertaining and lighthearted on an anonymous forum, they serve no purpose in reality.

I don't intend for this post to sound like a lecture...maybe I have just fallen into the unintentional 'power-tripping' pharmacist trap

I don't doubt there are some out there who will abuse these substances, just like there are people out there who will abuse glue. But glue hasn't been made a restricted substance as a result of this.

This particular Chemist is my local one, I've never bought painkillers from there before so they wouldn't have known me for that. I just still can't understand what reason I'd given them to refuse me.

Again I stress that I don't feel this way about all Pharmacists, just a small minority.

Nurofen and Bloody Chemists

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