Nurofen and Bloody Chemists

KilaWhale · 17-03-2011 05:16PM

Lightshow wrote: »

Pharmacists can indeed refuse to sell anything you anything they damn well please. But why would they? It's not their place to decide what should and should not be sold to the public. That's the responsibility of the Dept. for Health. If it's not restricted to prescription only then sell the damn thing and get over yourself.

You do realise that pharmacists do play a key role in the regulation of medicines via the Irish Medicines Board? The Department of Health do not decide if medicines are hospital only, prescription only, pharmacy only or general sales - these decisions are made through safety trials, clinical trials etc where pharmacists and other medical experts make decisions on medication licenses.

Myrddin · 17-03-2011 05:25PM

KilaWhale wrote: »

Isn't this what everyone is giving out about here though?

Well if their own initiative is telling them that legit people are drug lords, then there's a problem.

Lightshow · 17-03-2011 05:27PM

KilaWhale wrote: »

You do realise that pharmacists do play a key role in the regulation of medicines via the Irish Medicines Board? The Department of Health do not decide if medicines are hospital only, prescription only, pharmacy only or general sales - these decisions are made through safety trials, clinical trials etc where pharmacists and other medical experts make decisions on medication licenses.

You're arguing semantics with me here. Drugs are indeed graded as a result of clinical trials by medical experts but overall responsibility for their findings still rests with the Dept for Health.

But these products (nurofen plus, solpadine) have been passed as being suitable for over the counter sale to the general public, not on prescription or hospital only, whether you agree with that or not. Once this decision has been made that's that. There's no further room nor need for individual pharmacists to decide for themselves if they'll sell them or not. That's beyond their remit.

o1s1n · 17-03-2011 05:27PM

I had some surgery on Tuesday. Had a really long pin removed from my leg. It was a lot more painful than I thought it would be and it was only under local. The doctor even seemed surprised at the amount of pain that was coming from the bone and reckon it should probably have been done under general.

My mam went to the chemist in the hospital to get some Nurofen plus and they refused. Would only give her Paracetamol instead. She told them I'd just had surgery and was in a lot of pain so they gave her standard Nurofen. 'As it doesn't contain codeine'.

So as a result I spent a couple of days in a lot more pain than I should have.

Nice one chemist!

Myrddin · 17-03-2011 05:29PM

o1s1n wrote: »

I had some surgery on Tuesday. Had a really long pin removed from my leg. It was a lot more painful than I thought it would be and it was only under local. The doctor even seemed surprised at the amount of pain that was coming from the bone and reckon it should probably have been done under general.

My mam went to the chemist in the hospital to get some Nurofen plus and they refused. Would only give her Paracetamol instead. She told them I'd just had surgery and was in a lot of pain so they gave her standard Nurofen. 'As it doesn't contain codeine'.

So as a result I spent a couple of days in a lot more pain than I should have.

Nice one chemist!

A textbook example of the farce at hand.

o1s1n · 17-03-2011 05:35PM

EnterNow wrote: »

A textbook example of the farce at hand.

It's ridiculous. I get the exact same feeling of dread going into get Nurofen Plus as I do trying to get into a pub with a bouncer on the door.

'Can I have some Nurofen Plus please?'

'Not tonight'

'Why? I'm in pain'

'No Trainers'

'?!!?!'

craggles · 17-03-2011 05:41PM

She was a pharmacist, not a chemist.

Die.

Copper23 · 17-03-2011 05:44PM

People certainly should take responsibility for their own actions.

Unfortunately there are the selfish few who never ever do and make others deal with the consequences as a result.
Pity there are those like that out there.

o1s1n · 17-03-2011 05:44PM

craggles wrote: »

She was a pharmacist, not a chemist.

Die.

It was a he, not a she.

Double die.

angelfire9 · 17-03-2011 05:50PM

Codeine-based products should only be dispensed under the supervision of the pharmacist, who should be in a position to consult with the patient so as to determine the appropriateness of the request. Each repeated request should have a separate consultation.

Pharmacists should be alert to the possibility that some patients may request codeine-based medicines for symptoms that are in fact secondary to excess codeine consumption

Products containing codeine are a second-line treatment and should only be considered when the likes of paracetamol, aspirin and ibuprofen have not been successful in pain management

Source:
http://www.drugsandalcohol.ie/13989/

And for those of ye who complain specifically about Boots:

Attempts to buy codeine products at several Dublin pharmacies last week elicited a variety of responses, ranging from perfunctory risk warnings to more rigorous assessments.

While all the pharmacies were upfront about the new rules and some of the risks associated with the misuse of codeine, only a few of the stores insisted I speak with the pharmacist about my symptoms prior to selling me products.

High street chain Boots, which has a reputation for strict adherence to dispensing rules, proved to be the most thorough.

At a busy city centre Boots store, an assistant advised me of the new measures before directing me to speak with the pharmacist in advance of any purchase.

The on-duty pharmacist then asked a number of questions about my symptoms – intermittent back pain in this case. After assessing my condition and what medicines I had taken for it in the past, the pharmacist dissuaded me from buying a well-known codeine product, steering me instead towards a milder alternative.

Despite a queue at the prescription counter and a number of conspicuously impatient customers, she insisted on taking individuals seeking codeine products to one side for a brief consultation.

Source: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2010/0824/1224277436168.html

So you see its not the pharmacists who are taking this off their own bat
It is their obligation under legislation
And Boots the Chemists have advised their Pharmacists to adhere to the letter of the law in this regard

Should this be something that they are criticised for???

(note I am not a Pharmacist and do not work for Boots)

Greenmachine · 17-03-2011 05:54PM

Kimono-Girl wrote: »

actually pharmacists get quite a good bit of medical training in their long college course, so they can consult with their customers about the drugs, (example: the over the counter morning after pill) in my personal experience with a pharmacist i know, he knows the drugs better if not more then any doctor i have met, because he deals with them everyday!

of course they are taking addictive drugs seriously, are you seriously wondering why they are not letting people just walk in off the street and buy these addictive drugs? the only reason you could before is because it only emerged recently these were extremely addictive. they are now trying to remove peoples dependency on them hence reluctance to hand them out.

it's not rocket science: addictive drug + addicted people = reluctance to hand them out without knowing you.

in fact it was extremely irresponsible of the one down the street to just give them to you, imo they should be reported for it.

/rant

i really do not understand? how is allowing people who make a decision to take an addictive drug responsible? how can someone be called responsible when they decide to take an addictive substance?

Disagree with a lot of what you have said. Codeine has been around in pharmacies for over 100 years. While it has potential to be addictive, it's not extremely addictive far from it.

Secondly who would you report them to. The non dissplay thing in an industry guideline not a law. Best practice if you will. No body broke any law selling said product.

this is arse · 17-03-2011 05:54PM

Me: Could i have some neurofen plus?
Chem: Have you taken it before?
Me: Yes
Chem: What's it for?
Me: IBS

No more questions asked and nurofen given. Works most times.

Compak · 17-03-2011 05:55PM

EnterNow wrote: »

A textbook example of the farce at hand.

The farce was the dr. Surgery like that and no prescription.
The codeine amount in the plus analgesics is actually debatably effective as an analgesic and any poor converters such as myself will get no pain relief effect from it, as barely any morphine will be formed. Another large proportion get nothing more than placebo form these 'amazing' plus tablets

I nearly dont blame pharmacist in this case as hard to believe someone let out form surgery like that with no analgeic prescription

Classic example, dr F$%ks up and pharmacist take the wrath of the public.

angelfire9 · 17-03-2011 05:56PM

Greenmachine wrote: »

Secondly who would you report them to. The non dissplay thing in an industry guideline not a law. Best practice if you will. No body broke any law selling said product.

Not true

The Pharmacy Act 2007 and the Regulation of Retail Pharmacy Businesses Regulations 2008 require that all codeine-based products are dispensed under the supervision of a pharmacist, and that individuals in receipt of the product should receive appropriate counselling

Compak · 17-03-2011 05:58PM

this is arse wrote: »

Me: Could i have some neurofen plus?
Chem: Have you taken it before?
Me: Yes
Chem: What's it for?
Me: IBS

No more questions asked and nurofen given. Works most times.

Side effects of codeine -nausea and constipation
Side effect of nurofen - gut irritation

"works most times" Im incredulous, cant imagine pharmacists being happy with that use

Compak · 17-03-2011 05:59PM

Greenmachine wrote: »

Disagree with a lot of what you have said. Codeine has been around in pharmacies for over 100 years. While it has potential to be addictive, it's not extremely addictive far from it.

Secondly who would you report them to. The non dissplay thing in an industry guideline not a law. Best practice if you will. No body broke any law selling said product.

You sound like the Bayer rep when heroin came out as the nonaddictive form of morphine

Jumpy · 17-03-2011 06:02PM

this is arse wrote: »

Me: Could i have some neurofen plus?
Chem: Have you taken it before?
Me: Yes
Chem: What's it for?
Me: IBS

No more questions asked and nurofen given. Works most times.

Haha what? You take Ibuprofen mixed with Codeine for IBS?

Are you insane?

Compak · 17-03-2011 06:03PM

Lightshow wrote: »

You're arguing semantics with me here. Drugs are indeed graded as a result of clinical trials by medical experts but overall responsibility for their findings still rests with the Dept for Health.

But these products (nurofen plus, solpadine) have been passed as being suitable for over the counter sale to the general public, not on prescription or hospital only, whether you agree with that or not. Once this decision has been made that's that. There's no further room nor need for individual pharmacists to decide for themselves if they'll sell them or not. That's beyond their remit.

Will you stop continuously posting nonsense like this and learn the legal responsibility of the pharmacist when it comes to 'Pharmacist Supervised Medicines"

Stop pretending you know because you read one guideline.

Over the counter medicines, can be general sale, pharmacy only and pharmacist supervised. there is a reason for distinction and there are restrictions for each.

KilaWhale · 17-03-2011 06:04PM

Apologies if my post sounded pedantic. I am a pharmacist, not exactly a new one but I would like to think that I am still as 'on the ball' as the most recent graduates. I do not own my own business and therefore the 'selling for profit' argument does not apply to me.

I understand the frustration many people have with obtaining codeine products in recent months. The stories of interrogation and intimidation by pharmacists have shocked me and I find it difficult to understand how two adults cannot have a sensible discussion about what type of product may be best (from both perspectives - the patient must respect that the pharmacist has spent four years learning about these medicines and of course the pharmacist must respect that the patient often knows from experience which product works best for them).

From my own humble point of view, I believe that these codeine-containing products rightfully have a place in the 'non-prescription' category as they do provide valuable pain relief to many people. I treat people with respect when they ask for such products and many seem to be surprised when I suggest Nurofen Plus for an injury instead of the Solpadeine which they requested (if I feel that ibuprofen might be more appropriate than paracetamol for their specific pain). My main priority is ensuring that they dont unintentionally become dependent on such products when self-medicating for a chronic pain.
If someone tells me that they are have tried paracetamol before for acute pain and it has not worked for them, I have no problem in giving them codeine containing products for acute use as long as they know about the side effects etc.

However, I have refused to sell these products in the past to patients who do not behave in a responsible manner when requesting the product - if you act like an adult to me, I will act like an adult in return. I do not feel that there is any point in making up stories about period pains etc as, as long as you explain your situation to me in a rational manner, I will do my best to help. I cannot vouch for other pharmacists in these situations but the vast majority of my close friends would agree. Obviously, sometimes these exchanges become confrontatinal (about 5% of the time!) I do not think that it is fair to put this down purely to the inexperience of some pharmacists as it is often just as likely that a patient's unsavoury attitude may contribute to the problem. (I am not saying that is what happened in your case but in the interests of fairness, all sides must be considered!:))

Finally, it is disheartening to hear about your experiences with other pharmacists but please do not tar all of us with the one brush. This post is not intended to belittle your original post OP as I understand what a bad toothache feels like! It is merely intended to highlight that most of us are not acting like brats or on a power trip - often these publicised exhanges are due to a combination of inexperience and frustration on both parts.
K:)

Copper23 · 17-03-2011 06:10PM

Anything in the world can be addictive and habit forming.

Alcohol is because people associate it with having a good time.
Different drugs get associated with felling good, feeling relief or escape.
Going to the gym can be addictive, people see the positive effects and dont want to stop.
Lying is addictive to some people, lying to make their lives seem better becomes compulsive.
Driving your car everywhere, even the shop down the road instead of walking is a habit and becomes addictive when you realise how much easier it is than walking.

Anything that gives the person the feelings they desire can be addictive.

Doing anything in the world becomes addictive because of what it gives the person when they start associating it with something good.

What I'm getting at is that it's all in the mind.

Codeine and other drugs are addictive, sure, and so is eating cheeseburgers, if thats what satisfies you. There is no ingredient called "Addiction" added to anything. You'd just hope people could regulate themselves.

In an ideal world I guess everyone would have enough control over themselves to be able to handle these things for themselves.

In some ways I can't blame the chemist, they don't want to be liable or responsible indirectly for anything as the law is a funny thing. But really its the fact that there are people out there that cant control themselves and force these sort of laws and regulations in to place that is just madness. Most people in the world can help themselves and others just want someone else to always take the blame, responsibility or consequences of their actions and I think thats whats a bit crazy about any argument, whether its about nurofen, drink or anything else.

Gummy Panda · 17-03-2011 06:15PM

Compak wrote: »

Side effects of codeine -nausea and constipation
Side effect of nurofen - gut irritation

"works most times" Im incredulous, cant imagine pharmacists being happy with that use

Tbh, I was surprised to see that myself. Most would offer colpermin and advised to see a GP for a buscopan prescription.

Aidric · 17-03-2011 06:22PM

Ah, I was wondering why my mother was stocking up on Nurofen when she came to visit me in Prague.

Can't beat a double drop of Nurofen morning after a session, love that product.

suitseir · 17-03-2011 06:22PM

Had a similar conversation recently with a pharmacist, not where I live! I knew I was up against it when it was a 20 something female pharmacists! Sorry women and I am a female! But this was not the first time! IMO they are pathetic...they cannot make a decision to save their lives!

So why is it now compulsory to have a consultation room in these pharmacies if they cannot make a decision.....waste of time.
I left that particular pharmacy, went around the corner to another and met this very understanding MALE pharmacist....about mid 30`s...no prob....asked a few questions.....could ASCERTAIN that I was not a drug addict and I needed pain relief for my ACHING toothache. The restrictions are getting ridiculous.....God be with the days when A REAL PHARMACIST could diagnose a SIMPLE ailment. The original indecisive pharmacist was recommending that I go to a doctor FIRST for a consultation....so the tablets would have cost me over €50-00. Such a racket! And yes, I have visited the Dentist....ongoing!

this is arse · 17-03-2011 06:43PM

Side effects of codeine -nausea and constipation
Side effect of nurofen - gut irritation

"works most times" Im incredulous, cant imagine pharmacists being happy with that use

did you know that 99% of constipated people just don't give a sh1t?

are you creduluos now?

Haha what? You take Ibuprofen mixed with Codeine for IBS?

Are you insane?

ah, i don't actually have IBS, duh!

it's how you get around the questioning. not many pharmacists are gonna question you further about a condition with two of the most common symptoms being flatulence and diarrhea.

Fittle · 17-03-2011 06:48PM

I think most of us who have commented here and have taken both nurofen and nurofen plus would agree that the ordinary nurofen are sh1te. I mentioned earlier that I take np for back pain - I may as well eat a packet of smarties as take 2/3 nurofen - one np does the trick though.

So obviously it must be the actual codine that is a painkiller right?

So what's in the ordinary nurofen and why do they bother producing it when it doesn't actually work for most people?

i-digress · 17-03-2011 06:51PM

The Irish Pharmaceutical Union think that the regulations have resulted in a stigma attached to codeine that was never intended. It was to prevent addiction.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2010/1026/1224282002717.html

Nevertheless, they have to comply with regulations.

I disagree with the regulations on the grounds that it means people who use it responsibly are penalised. Those who have an addiction will manage to get the drug somehow, it is the nature of addiction.

I think an information campaign on the dangers of potential addiction with ALL non prescription drugs would have been a better tack for the government to take. But of course information campaigns cost money :rolleyes:

Daisy! · 17-03-2011 06:53PM

Fittle wrote: »

I think most of us who have commented here and have taken both nurofen and nurofen plus would agree that the ordinary nurofen are sh1te. I mentioned earlier that I take np for back pain - I may as well eat a packet of smarties as take 2/3 nurofen - one np does the trick though.

So obviously it must be the actual codine that is a painkiller right?

So what's in the ordinary nurofen and why do they bother producing it when it doesn't actually work for most people?

I guess it's more like Paracetemol?

Guys don't buy Neurofen Plus from a Boots or McCabes Chemist. They're unreal for giving them out. Go to a smaller or local chemist where they're nice human beings and not grumpy rude cows like Boots and McCabes usually tend to be.

17-03-2011 07:16PM

Nurofen is ibuprofen while Nurofen Plus is ibuprofen+codeine.

My sister claims that only Nurofen Express works for her, it can't even be bought in Ireland.

craggles · 17-03-2011 07:19PM

o1s1n wrote: »

It was a he, not a she.

Double die.

Yep.

Chuck Stone · 17-03-2011 07:33PM

Get some opium poppies for Granny's greenhouse.
Scrape poppy head.
Harvest delicious more-ish opium.
?????
Profit.

Harry Hill: The trouble with heroin is *rubs tummy & licks lips* it's very more-ish mmmmm.

Nurofen and Bloody Chemists

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