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Raw Thread 14/02 *spoilers within*

1…2021222426

Comments

  • #692
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    flahavaj wrote: »
    Again, the anti-Cena moaners seem to be relying on this "I think Cena should be using his sway with WWE more to make himself better" argument. Its a crock of sh*t. Younger viewers absolutely love him the way he is. They think its gas when he says poopy. They don't care about his punches, or the fact that his selling isn't Jushin Liger circa 1996 levels of awesome. And it is these younger viewers that Vince now wants to cater for.

    Its all well and good using examples of more cuttinmg edge guys like Punk and de Rio as examples of how to circumvent the PG era. What have they got in common? They're heels. Heels are naturally more entertaining to interet fans indeed by their very definition they are likely to be more entertaining. Look at Batista - bland as a face - beloved by the net once he turned. it is so much more easy to impress internet fans as a heel. Wait until Cena turns heel. Ye will all be jerking offover how great he is. Suddenly the punches won't be an issue. He proved at ONS he'd be unbelieveable in the role. .

    The day Vince starts taking advice from his wreslters about minor details that only really concern bunch of smarks on the internet is the day WWE is well and truly f*cked. B*tch and moan all ye like about how WWE haven't built stars, how their storytelling is P*ss poor, how their over scripting of their stars is making them blans - all valid and worthwhile arguments that i would agree with. But pillorying Cena for problems not of his own doing, or more laughably moaning about him because he doesn't bring the criticisms of the message board warriors to the booking room table is absolutely ridiculous.

    Why is what the younger viewers think of "as gas" more important than anything else? As a business model, alienating your core demographic is a pretty stupid strategy. Several reports show their biggest demographic is adult males. Several reports also show that merchandise is one of their smallest revenue streams.

    Again the heel line is being used. There have been good faces once or twice in the history of wrestling too you know.

    You can write me off as a message board warrior all you want. It has about as much value as me calling you a fanboy. Both are meaningless insults. All I am saying is that as somebody who has loved wrestling for 20 years since I was a kid (yes I was a kid who loved, wrestling, boo hiss I'm such a hypocrite etc), the past few years have been the only time I have not cared about large parts of the programme. And there are pretty simple remedies to these problems, many of which Cena could take if he were so inclined. I might never love Cena due to his in-ring work, but it should be possible for me to say "yeah his character is the best it can be". That is not the case now. I never cared for The Rock or Hogan in-ring. But I could say at various times that they were being booked and performing admirably.

    Simple things like getting rid of idiotic dialogue and selling things better. Look at when Punk first attacked him with the chair. He popped back up within seconds. I have nothing against goofiness in wrestling and love The Undertaker. But even he, with the character he has, sells better and more often than Cena. And he is supposed to be an unstoppable Deadman. Look at the improvements made in Taker after the arrival of Mick Foley. They stopped booking him idiotically and he upped his own game. Obviously Taker has a physicality that Cena can never replicate and Taker was directed to hold back on elements such as speed, certain moves etc, but it is an example.

    Edit: I'm not a fan of being told I'm going to love Cena and jerking off to him. I think I know what actually do and do not like!


  • #693
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    Gerard.C wrote: »
    He mustnt be that bad then

    Wow way to cherry pick one line from about 100 and misconstrue it.


  • #694
    D.Q
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,054 ✭✭✭D.Q


    flahavaj wrote: »
    Again, the anti-Cena moaners seem to be relying on this "I think Cena should be using his sway with WWE more to make himself better" argument. Its a crock of sh*t. Younger viewers absolutely love him the way he is. They think its gas when he says poopy. They don't care about his punches, or the fact that his selling isn't Jushin Liger circa 1996 levels of awesome. And it is these younger viewers that Vince now wants to cater for.

    Its all well and good using examples of more cuttinmg edge guys like Punk and de Rio as examples of how to circumvent the PG era. What have they got in common? They're heels. Heels are naturally more entertaining to interet fans indeed by their very definition they are likely to be more entertaining. Look at Batista - bland as a face - beloved by the net once he turned. it is so much more easy to impress internet fans as a heel. Wait until Cena turns heel. Ye will all be jerking offover how great he is. Suddenly the punches won't be an issue. He proved at ONS he'd be unbelieveable in the role. .

    The day Vince starts taking advice from his wreslters about minor details that only really concern bunch of smarks on the internet is the day WWE is well and truly f*cked. B*tch and moan all ye like about how WWE haven't built stars, how their storytelling is P*ss poor, how their over scripting of their stars is making them blans - all valid and worthwhile arguments that i would agree with. But pillorying Cena for problems not of his own doing, or more laughably moaning about him because he doesn't bring the criticisms of the message board warriors to the booking room table is absolutely ridiculous.


    I wouldn't consider myself anti-cena. While I will stand by the points I have stated in this thread (basically that I don't believe he can get anyone other than kids really invested in his promos/matches), I think that alot of the backlash towards Cena is because he rarely has anyone really talented to work with.

    All the guys back a few years ago had great foil to work off (in fact for most of the big stars of yesteryear, that foil was HHH) People will talk about Jericho and Punk as these great heels, but the nonsensical booking of Cena means that they will never really be taken as a legitimate threat. Which is a pity, as it would elevate both Cena and whatever heel he is feuding with.

    The blame for these booking decisions lies at someones feet, but as we are not there when Cena is informed of angles/promos or there when they draft these angles up, all we can really offer is speculation.

    As far as Vince/Cena catering for us goes, I'm not sure I agree. There is no guarantee those kids they are catering for will continue buying Pay Per Views. They could grow out of it, any number of reasons. However, our age group, which accounts for 60 percent of their viewers, we will keep buying. We will keep watching. Its a fact, we've grown up with it and continue to do so. I dont have any sort f inferiority complex about being a "smark on the internet". I'm a huge fan of the wwe, and this is proven by the fact that I enjoy coming on to the internet and talking wrestling with other like minded people, and yeah it bothers me that my loyalty is not catered for when they send out a purple cartoon character to appeal to the kids, who arent buying the PPVs in the first place.


  • #695
    Gerard.C
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭Gerard.C


    parker kent wrote: »
    Wow way to cherry pick one line from about 100 and misconstrue it.

    Well all you've done is complain about the current product, yet you watch it every week? Why would you watch something you dont like?


  • #696
    Big Daddy Cool
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭Big Daddy Cool


    Gerard.C wrote: »
    Well all you've done is complain about the current product, yet you watch it every week? Why would you watch something you dont like?

    the same reason we have watched the wwf from the days of hulk hogan and the the ultimate warrior, to diesel and bret hart and razor ramon, to stone cold steve austin, HHH and The Rock to the wwe with randy orton and cm punk, its because we grew up watching the wwf/wwe


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  • #697
    SlickRic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,888 ✭✭✭✭SlickRic


    just as an aside from the Cena debate...

    i just had a watch of the start of the Rock segment again, and what gets me most, more than even the promo, is for some reason the fúcking walk to the ring. i don't what it is, if it's his walk, or the way the cameraman has shot it, but it's fúcking awesome.

    it just oozes 'star'.


  • #698
    Big Daddy Cool
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭Big Daddy Cool


    SlickRic wrote: »
    just as an aside from the Cena debate...

    i just had a watch of the start of the Rock segment again, and what gets me most, more than even the promo, is for some reason the fúcking walk to the ring. i don't what it is, if it's his walk, or the way the cameraman has shot it, but it's fúcking awesome.

    it just oozes 'star'.

    cos its the walk of thee most electrifying man in all of entertainment :D


  • #699
    JP Liz V1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92,394 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056167319

    ^This thread is about Cena's matches

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055818119

    ^ This is the Cena discussion thread


  • #700
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    Gerard.C wrote: »
    Well all you've done is complain about the current product, yet you watch it every week? Why would you watch something you dont like?

    No as per usual this has turned into a Cena debate. I'm saying I don't like certain aspects of how it is currently presented. Wishing something you love to be better is not the same as not liking it.

    For the records, I love Taker, Daniel Bryan, The Miz, Edge, Dolph Ziggler, Vickie, CM Punk and the New Nexus, Cole's rants (even if they should have Josh Matthews on play by play on Raw too), Randy Orton, Sheamus, John Morrison, the mystery GM, Alberto Del Rio, Nattie, LayCool and lots lots more if I put real thought into what I like. These are examples of what I like.

    That does not mean that I agree with everything related to the above, it just means that there is something there that I like. There are lots of decent wrestlers on both shows. I don't think they are being booked to their maximum and think many characters could be improved if the writing staff were changed. I have no major issues with PG and mainly feel that there are many examples of poor writing and wasted opportunities. Just because I vent on here about what frustrates about the modern WWE, does not mean that I don't like it. I will say though, that if I as a pretty hardcore fan have felt like giving up on wrestling watching certain shows, then there has to be something wrong. There will always be something to draw me back in (HBK/Taker/ and Bret Hart last year for example) but it is clear there are many who felt the same and are not buying as many PPVs or attending live shows.


  • #701
    Gerard.C
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭Gerard.C


    Big Daddy Cool wrote: »
    the same reason we have watched the wwf from the days of hulk hogan and the the ultimate warrior, to diesel and bret hart and razor ramon, to stone cold steve austin, HHH and The Rock to the wwe with randy orton and cm punk, its because we grew up watching the wwf/wwe

    Ya but theres no sense in watching it if all people will do is complain?


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  • #702
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    JP Liz V1 wrote: »
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056167319

    ^This thread is about Cena's matches

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055818119

    ^ This is the Cena discussion thread

    I think this thread actually suits this discussion as it stems from what happened on Raw. This weeks Raw was better than most recent Raws. So it seems natural to discuss the ins and outs of why that is.

    Nostalgia definitely played a role, but there was more to why this weeks Raw was a good show. I didn't want to get into a Cena debate, but it is pretty hard to leave things left unsaid when words are being put into my mouth! It is a pity that a very good Miz/Danielson match and the return of The Undertaker is being sidetracked by all of this!


  • #703
    Big Daddy Cool
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭Big Daddy Cool


    Gerard.C wrote: »
    Ya but theres no sense in watching it if all people will do is complain?

    i watch it to see the undertaker, edge, HHH when he's around, cm punk, del rio, sheamus, and danielson or daniel bryan i should say, they all make it still worth watching


  • #704
    JP Liz V1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92,394 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    parker kent wrote: »
    I think this thread actually suits this discussion as it stems from what happened on Raw. This weeks Raw was better than most recent Raws. So it seems natural to discuss the ins and outs of why that is.

    Nostalgia definitely played a role, but there was more to why this weeks Raw was a good show. I didn't want to get into a Cena debate, but it is pretty hard to leave things left unsaid when words are being put into my mouth! It is a pity that a very good Miz/Danielson match and the return of The Undertaker is being sidetracked by all of this!

    Yes Bryan carried Miz in a great match


  • #705
    parker kent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    JP Liz V1 wrote: »
    Yes Bryan carried Miz in a great match

    That doesn't really change that it was a good match.

    I'm Danielson's biggest fan, I know he can carry dead wood to a decent match. Which is why I hope they united the US and Intercontinental title so he can be on Raw and Smackdown every week.


  • #706
    ManofStraw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭ManofStraw


    Leaving the Cena debate aside it was great to see the Rock back again his mic work is just on another level and part of it was seeing him put Micheal Cole in his place. It was also nice to see a promo that used the word "ass" I'm not saying that such words are necessary for a good promo but its nice to see a more raw promo every now and again


  • #707
    jaykhunter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,014 ✭✭✭✭jaykhunter


    Gerard.C wrote: »
    Ya but theres no sense in watching it if all people will do is complain?

    Bit of pot-kettle-black scenario seeing as this cena debate started due to the amount of love Rock received on RAW and felt a need to interject.

    Complaining is quite cathartic. It allows people to feel better about the situation and continue watching the show they love. It's also the last vestige before stopping watching. We all still LOVE wrestling, regardless about the concerns about current product. Discussing all aspects of wrestling is very enjoyable. Sure WCCW for november 83 is on in the background right now!

    Also, people (like myself) are addicted to wrestling. Hooked in in the Hulkamania Era as a kid, and again in the Attitude Era as a teen. We're the stalwart fans that support wrestling no matter what.

    The idea that someone should love it blindly, or don't watch at all, is nothing short of idiotic. Anyone that truly cares about a product thinks about it and invariably forms strong opinions; nothing and no-one is infallible.


  • #708
    newballsplease
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,751 ✭✭✭newballsplease


    Quick question- was Diesel and booker t returns for one night only? or are they back on smakdown? i dont watch that..


  • #709
    JP Liz V1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92,394 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    newballsplease wrote: »
    Quick question- was Diesel and booker t returns for one night only? or are they back on smakdown? i dont watch that..

    Booker T is on SD as a commentator


  • #710
    jaykhunter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,014 ✭✭✭✭jaykhunter


    newballsplease wrote: »
    Quick question- was Diesel and booker t returns for one night only? or are they back on smakdown? i dont watch that..

    Book's doing colour commentary on Smackers and Diesel role in WWE isn't known yet.


  • #711
    CMpunked
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,600 ✭✭✭✭CMpunked


    jaykhunter wrote: »
    Bit of pot-kettle-black scenario seeing as this cena debate started due to the amount of love Rock received on RAW and felt a need to interject.

    Complaining is quite cathartic. It allows people to feel better about the situation and continue watching the show they love. It's also the last vestige before stopping watching. We all still LOVE wrestling, regardless about the concerns about current product. Discussing all aspects of wrestling is very enjoyable. Sure WCCW for november 83 is on in the background right now!

    Youve posted that before on a different thread. :pac:;)


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  • #712
    jaykhunter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,014 ✭✭✭✭jaykhunter


    CMpunked wrote: »
    Youve posted that before on a different thread. :pac:;)

    there are only so many thoughts in my head :p Which one?

    *goes to search for jaykhunter cathartic*

    edit : Ah it was in the Against All Odds thread. Well it does apply ;)


  • #713
    ManofStraw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 304 ✭✭ManofStraw


    I know Booker is doing commentary at the min but is there any plan for him to return to the ring anytime soon or was his Rumble appearance his last in ring appearance ?


  • #714
    CMpunked
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,600 ✭✭✭✭CMpunked


    jaykhunter wrote: »
    there are only so many thoughts in my head :p Which one?

    *goes to search for jaykhunter cathartic*

    edit : Ah it was in the Against All Odds thread. Well it does apply ;)

    Yup.
    But you hit it exactly. Complaining about something says you feel strongly about it that you want to express it and share your thoughts sometimes it needs to be done to move forward and not get complacent.

    As for the rocks promo as a whole i thought it was fantastic.
    his comments about Cena were classic rock. Making fun of the biggest faces and saying the things that everyone else knows but no one dare mentions.

    Perfect example is Steph Mcmahons birthday song.
    "A ho with big breasts".

    So i dont care where they go, if they have a match, if he kicks his ass at the end of mania, hell even if he is just on commentary for when cena has his match, i dont really care.
    If i speculate i think i could come up with the perfect scenario in my head and that wont happen. I'm just going to enjoy the ride and be glad that i can be reminded of how awesome it can be to be a wrestling fan. Well, wwe fan.


  • #715
    Professey Chin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,054 ✭✭✭✭Professey Chin


    CMpunked wrote: »
    As for the rocks promo as a whole i thought it was fantastic.
    his comments about Cena were classic rock. Making fun of the biggest faces and saying the things that everyone else knows but no one dare mentions.

    Perfect example is Steph Mcmahons birthday song.
    "A ho with big breasts".
    Or describing Booker T & Shane McMahon
    "The 5 time sucka and the silver spoon motherfcuka"

    Personal favourites are the 1st time he tore into Booker T (The Spinneroony, The Dipsi-Doodle and the Sufferin Suckatash) and when the nWo came into his dressing room their 1st night back :pac:


  • #716
    Mitch Connor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 48,895 ✭✭✭✭Mitch Connor


    CMpunked wrote: »
    Yup.
    But you hit it exactly. Complaining about something says you feel strongly about it that you want to express it and share your thoughts sometimes it needs to be done to move forward and not get complacent.

    As for the rocks promo as a whole i thought it was fantastic.
    his comments about Cena were classic rock. Making fun of the biggest faces and saying the things that everyone else knows but no one dare mentions.

    Perfect example is Steph Mcmahons birthday song.
    "A ho with big breasts".

    So i dont care where they go, if they have a match, if he kicks his ass at the end of mania, hell even if he is just on commentary for when cena has his match, i dont really care.
    If i speculate i think i could come up with the perfect scenario in my head and that wont happen. I'm just going to enjoy the ride and be glad that i can be reminded of how awesome it can be to be a wrestling fan. Well, wwe fan.

    The perfect scenario for me would be Rock being Special Guest Ref for WM, between Miz and Cena.

    Miz to go over clean, with the Rock counting 1-2-3.

    On Raw the next night, or a week later, Vince says Cena is the WWE, he is the main guy and The Rock was just screwing him over at WM. Cena deserved to win, blah blah blah....

    Have a couple of more Cena/Rock interactions, with Vince in the background, in Cena's ear. Have a couple of more Cena/Miz fights - Cena winning one but dropping the title again at Over-The-Limit

    This leads, eventually, to a Cena/McMahon pact with Cena turning heel. set up a heel Cena vs The Rock at Summer Slam.

    Pay off is, possible, a massive Summer Slam match. A Cena heel turn, possibly a bit more acceptance of Cena by IWC, Miz elevated a bit with clean wins over Cena. Promote John Morrison to main event status and have him going for the title vs Miz at Summer Slam as well.


  • #717
    CMpunked
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,600 ✭✭✭✭CMpunked


    I would rather see Vince off tv as the Mr McMahon character altogether tbh.
    The idea of him turning someone heel has been near done to death. I would like to see Cena going back to being heel himself. Back to rapping. :D


  • #718
    Tinie
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,402 ✭✭✭Tinie


    Mitch Connor wrote: »
    The perfect scenario for me would be Rock being Special Guest Ref for WM, between Miz and Cena.

    Miz to go over clean, with the Rock counting 1-2-3.

    On Raw the next night, or a week later, Vince says Cena is the WWE, he is the main guy and The Rock was just screwing him over at WM. Cena deserved to win, blah blah blah....

    Have a couple of more Cena/Rock interactions, with Vince in the background, in Cena's ear. Have a couple of more Cena/Miz fights - Cena winning one but dropping the title again at Over-The-Limit

    This leads, eventually, to a Cena/McMahon pact with Cena turning heel. set up a heel Cena vs The Rock at Summer Slam.

    Pay off is, possible, a massive Summer Slam match. A Cena heel turn, possibly a bit more acceptance of Cena by IWC, Miz elevated a bit with clean wins over Cena. Promote John Morrison to main event status and have him going for the title vs Miz at Summer Slam as well.
    Well I really think if their doing a Rock v Cena match, mania is the only place to do it now. The seed has been planted in fans heads and everyone expects it now. If wwe are trying to get old fans back into the product, then have that match at mania as Mania gets the most promotion and the most well known PPV obviously, with most casual fans not knowing when summer slam is or keeping track of it.


  • #719
    Rjd2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,329 ✭✭✭✭Rjd2


    Mitch Connor wrote: »
    The perfect scenario for me would be Rock being Special Guest Ref for WM, between Miz and Cena.



    Aye that would work. This is how I would book it, the whole match The Rock teases tension between him and i and Cena, then at the end, The Miz hits his finish and The Rock counts but Cena kicks out. Miz goes mad, the Rock hits the Rockbottom and Cena then hits the AA and pins Miz. The two shake hands passing the torch and all that. :)

    But then this hits....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6OF_R2r2iA



    Masters who has won MITB and cashed in successfully comes out to a huge pop. All three men stare each other down and then they all start doing the pec's dance.


    Then this hits....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgKwmtEg-x0



    Out comes Reks, Ryder and Primo and then GM interrupts and books a tag match. The faces win after all three hit simultaneous master locks. Cena and Rock leave the stage and then....


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPtzrCBNn58


    The Bella's comes out with a nice subway lunch, Masters starts eating that and the PPV goes off air.


    BUYS.


  • #720
    Gerard.C
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭Gerard.C


    jaykhunter wrote: »
    Bit of pot-kettle-black scenario seeing as this cena debate started due to the amount of love Rock received on RAW and felt a need to interject.

    Complaining is quite cathartic. It allows people to feel better about the situation and continue watching the show they love. It's also the last vestige before stopping watching. We all still LOVE wrestling, regardless about the concerns about current product. Discussing all aspects of wrestling is very enjoyable. Sure WCCW for november 83 is on in the background right now!

    Also, people (like myself) are addicted to wrestling. Hooked in in the Hulkamania Era as a kid, and again in the Attitude Era as a teen. We're the stalwart fans that support wrestling no matter what.

    The idea that someone should love it blindly, or don't watch at all, is nothing short of idiotic. Anyone that truly cares about a product thinks about it and invariably forms strong opinions; nothing and no-one is infallible.


    Not really though. There is people that complain every single week about Raw like.

    I dunno, I just dont get the whole "this is rubbish, i hate the bellas, i hate Cena, i wish it was the attitude era" thing. I just dont get why people would complain every single week? I'd give up myself if it bothered me that much. I never said everyone should love it blindly or stop watching.

    Obviously everyone will have their favourite peroid. Mine is the year 2001. But I will never ever ever say that the current product should go back to the way it was then. Its different now, its new now. I saw 2001 IN 2001 like, I want to see 2011 now, if ya get me? It is what it is now and I enjoy it. I enjoy seeing the Nexus every week. I enjoy Alberto coming out beeping his horn and smiling at how great he is. And to go back to my original point, I dont want Dwayne Johnson from the tooth fairy blatantly lying about how long he will stay, getting fans hopes up, insulting John Cena, and going back to Hollywood in a few weeks. Just me though. I've a friend who likes wrestling but doesnt follow it on the internet, and he saw the Raw thing and said he cant wait for Rock-Cena at Mania. Like I know he wont be wrestling at Mania, but jesus he didnt half let on he would be.

    By the way this isnt a go at ya Jay, I'm just saying. Ya know how things get touchy sometimes like :pac: Bitta debating for the soul is all


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  • #721
    DeadParrot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,764 ✭✭✭DeadParrot


    Gerard.C wrote: »
    But Miz-Cena has barely started yet so how does it need help?

    Why should Cena have to win over the rock?

    I hope this doesnt ruffle too many feathers but like **** the rock. Great nostalgia seeing him back and all that. But why should Cena have to win over a failed movie star when he has been carrying the company for years himself? Is what Cena does much worse than saying roody poo and making jokes about pie? Its not Cenas fault if WWE is PG and that a lot of their fans cant move beyond the fact that the attitude era is over. Could be easily argued that Cena is the better wrestler too
    there is so much wrong with this statement it beggers belief.


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