Raw Thread 14/02 *spoilers within*

jaykhunter

Well I agree that open-palm strikes are a bit crap but at least he connects with them :pac:

Del Rio's been in WWE for months, not headlining as WWE's main guy for about 6 years now. I expect much more from someone with that under their belt. We've yet to see how far he'll go as a mic worker but I doubt he'd be on Punk's level. But he seems very good and is above most of the roster already.

If writers were strictly responsible for promos then how come Punk's and Jericho's promos were more engaging (probably because they fight for --and get-- some or total control of their promos)? The fact that Cena reads exactly what he's given despite getting heckled by fans because of his delivery and content; if he cared about his craft he'd fight a better script. It's shocking that he doesn't.

Pretty much everyone else gets a pass on using the writers as an excuse, but not the indispensable head of the company.

jaykhunter

I can't believe "PG" is still a scapegoat. The fact that Hulkamania was also PG and was hugely successful with had tons of awesome promos throws that out the window. We're missing the talent, booking AND script-writing.

D2D

Last night's 2/14 WWE Monday Night Raw drew a 3.14 cable rating off hours of a 3.03 and 3.25 with 4.8 million viewers. This is down from last week's 3.3 rating. Apparently, the overrun hit 5.7 million viewers

flahavaj

parker kent wrote: »

I know about the Mattel deal and the PG rating, I have had to defend myself on here for saying such a situation existed at all! Of course he could change his promos. It is a strategic decision that he obviously agrees with to have him speak like the 10 year old fans he appeals to. I know the writers are bad, but I'm sure between them and Cena they could come up with a PG friendly word that was not poop.

As for The Rock's in-ring ability, I thought it best to avoid the Rocky fanboys today and not bring attention to certain horrible aspects to his in-ring ability! But I definitely view him as better than Cena in-ring.

I don't think he'd be allowed change his promos tbh, I really don't. Nobody really could ever know if he has tried.

I'd say Rock is better on the mic than Cena, but i think Cena is better in the ring. For all the criticism of his puches, Rocks strikes were as bad if not worse, for the five knuckle shuffle, read the people's elbow, for the STFU read Rock's absolutely horrible sharpshooter. Rock was lucky to have worked in an era where he main evented against a plethora of brilliant workers who were all at their peak. I don't really have any interest in seeing him wrestle at Mania, for me his greatness and all my good memories of him lie in his abilities on the stick. He wasn't that great at all as an in ring worker.

parker kent

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I think a lot of people either didn't catch Cena when he was really on fire in mid to late '03 or else just don't remember it, but when he was non-PG he was extremely entertaining. Here's a great rap on Rey Mysterio. I think this was just as his heel turn was finishing and he became a babyface soon after due to his popularity:

Also I don't think Cena needs a rub from The Rock to win over the fans who hate him. He's been a babyface for what, seven years? They would win most of his critics over with a heel turn just like with happened with The Rock's Hollywood heel persona when he got stale.

As for Punk, he's a heel. It's easy to impress the IWC when you are one. As a babyface he wasn't anything special. Batista is another example when he turned. People hated his babyface stuff but became entertained following that. I believe Cena is a better natural talker than Punk and the closest thing to The Rock the current roster has. He's just being restricted. In my view the Cena persona of 2003 could hang with The Rock. He wouldn't be better, I don't think anyone would be, yet he'd be entertaining and hold his own.

I disliked Cena as a heel. I disliked Cena in the PG era, the TV 14 era, basically I don't like Cena. I haven't forgotten anything nor have I missed anything he did that would have won me over.

My point about winning over the fans does not mean I think it would actually work. They basically have to win over people like me, which will never happen. Face or heel. Although I would acknowledge the move to heel being good for the show, I will never get into anything he does. I just don't like his in-ring ability or his delivery on the mic. It feels forced, much like a 12 year old in a school play. He has about 4 facial expressions: sad, angry, confused and happy. Watch The Marine, he can't act.

As for Punk, my love of his promo abilities have nothing to do with him being a heel. Sure he is a great heel, but the man has a tremendous way with words and knows how to deliver them. He fundamentally understands what works in wrestling. As a commentator on Raw and ROH, he proved that. He did some pretty good promos in ROH too. He also has a coolness and humour that Cena never, ever will have. Somebody with my interests and sense of humour will always be drawn towards somebody like Punk over Cena.

bboy123

rock v cena - wrestlemania 27

book it vince!

Gerard.C

Cena is also scripted I'm assuming, whereas the rock wasnt.

As for Miz being green, so was The Rock at WM 15. And Cena has carried FAR worse than Miz to passable, good and even great matches. I for one would be cheering Cena all the way against Rock. Or is he Dwayne now?

Miz has X Pac heat? Cmon now Gimmick.

As for it being obvious that Cena will win, apparantly it was obvious he was going to win the Rumble too. It was always obvious when Hogan and Austin were going to win too. That was grand though cos they wernt Cena.

I've one for ye - does anyone actually believe The Rock when he says hes never going away again? Doubtful. But its fun to enjoy the storytelling and the action though. I wonder who ye were cheeing fo when he was obviously going to lose the title to Lesnar in 02 cos he was going off for a film? :pac:

Gerard.C

jaykhunter wrote: »

I can't believe "PG" is still a scapegoat. The fact that Hulkamania was also PG and was hugely successful with had tons of awesome promos throws that out the window. We're missing the talent, booking AND script-writing.

WWE is way more succesful now than it was with Hogan. And there are still savage promos nowadays. There is more talent in WWE now than there ever was imo. My god the talent they have nowadays is unreal.

jaykhunter

Y'almost had me there Ger!

parker kent

Gerard.C wrote: »

Cena is also scripted I'm assuming, whereas the rock wasnt.

As for Miz being green, so was The Rock at WM 15. And Cena has carried FAR worse than Miz to passable, good and even great matches. I for one would be cheering Cena all the way against Rock. Or is he Dwayne now?

Miz has X Pac heat? Cmon now Gimmick.

As for it being obvious that Cena will win, apparantly it was obvious he was going to win the Rumble too. It was always obvious when Hogan and Austin were going to win too. That was grand though cos they wernt Cena.

I've one for ye - does anyone actually believe The Rock when he says hes never going away again? Doubtful. But its fun to enjoy the storytelling and the action though. I wonder who ye were cheeing fo when he was obviously going to lose the title to Lesnar in 02 cos he was going off for a film? :pac:

We are already talking about Cena being scripted. He could influence his promos. It is ridiculous to say otherwise. How come Punk, Jericho, HBK, HHH sound different to everybody else in the PG era? Because they influence their character. Cena, as the companies number 1 guy will have the power to influence his promos in a similar way.

Ok so they didn't have Cena win the Rumble. They just had him eliminate The Nexus on his own in about 2 minutes and then dominate until Miz interfered. The points about Hogan and Austin are not exactly relevant. It is not like anybody has came on and said "It was OK for them but not for Cena". I'm against all Super Hero style booking. It is ridiculous. Booking somebody as better? Sure it is expected. Booking them as Superman, not so.

We've already talked about whether The Rock is staying. I think it should be clear he is not. He is likely to only make 1 or 2 appearances before Mania too. I was never a mark for Rocky, but he did make a good promo last night.

Was anyone else massively disappointed when The Rock came out?

After seeing the feet coming out of the limo, my heart was pounding. I genuinely thought they got The Coach back


:pac:

I really do hope they don't blow it by putting the Rock in the ring. His best run in my opinion was his 2003 heel run (and I firmly believe the 2003 opening video should've been used last night, would've been fantastic).

I thought in 2003 the Rock was just hilarious. From his segments with Hurricane and Coach, to his "Rock in Concert" stuff, I thought he was hilarious. Much better as an on-screen non-wrestler, in my opinion.

Mr.Nice Guy

parker kent wrote:

I disliked Cena as a heel. I disliked Cena in the PG era, the TV 14 era, basically I don't like Cena. I haven't forgotten anything nor have I missed anything he did that would have won me over.

My point about winning over the fans does not mean I think it would actually work. They basically have to win over people like me, which will never happen. Face or heel. Although I would acknowledge the move to heel being good for the show, I will never get into anything he does. I just don't like his in-ring ability or his delivery on the mic. It feels forced, much like a 12 year old in a school play. He has about 4 facial expressions: sad, angry, confused and happy. Watch The Marine, he can't act.

As for Punk, my love of his promo abilities have nothing to do with him being a heel. Sure he is a great heel, but the man has a tremendous way with words and knows how to deliver them. He fundamentally understands what works in wrestling. As a commentator on Raw and ROH, he proved that. He did some pretty good promos in ROH too. He also has a coolness and humour that Cena never, ever will have. Somebody with my interests and sense of humour will always be drawn towards somebody like Punk over Cena.

I don't mean any disrespect but why should they have to win over fans that will never take to him? Fair enough if you don't like him, but he was mega over at one stage before a part of the audience decided to reject him so I think the majority of fans that heckle him were at one stage fans of his. I honestly think it's a near carbon copy of what happened to The Rock after WM18 when the fans just got sick of him and longed for a former icon.

I think Cena's facial expressions are pretty good tbh. He has tended to do great in terms of getting heels over and getting the fans on his side with his sad face => . Like the way young kids reacted to him having to join Nexus for example. He might not be getting any Oscars but he does the job as well as anyone.

As regards Punk, I agree he is a great promo guy but I think that style of his will flop as a babyface, and his babyface work has to be viewed as poor in the grand scheme of things - certainly compared to guys like Rock and Cena. I agree he has coolness and humour but so does Cena, it's just different to his. But sure you're not going to be converted though are you?

I would add though that even PG Cena can do great promos. As Machismo Fan says it's about the material. He had a terrific one when he did his 'retirement' speech a few months back (shame they later made it look stupid but at the time it was great).

As for the influence he can exert on his promos, do we really need a top star throwing his weight about? He can't change the PG rating and that means he can't use words like 'ass' and the other edgier stuff he used to say. Didn't he joke about this recently when doing a promo - 'sorry guys this is a PG show I'm doing the best I can' or something along those lines? And didn't he say on Twitter that he was fined for using the word 'ass' in a promo a few weeks back? As I say, he is handcuffed by the environment he's in. Hogan could work in it but Hogan just had to say any oul' pap in that voice of his and the fans would like it. Hell, Warrior got over in that era just spouting complete rubbish.

irish_stevo815

Just got around to watching Raw and My God am I pumped for Wrestlemania after The Rock's promo

I made the mistake of going online today, because every site remotely associated with wrestling was all about the big return so i knew it was coming. Still didnt stop me from marking the hell out when i heard "IF YA SMMMMMEEEELLLLL.........." after that crazy build up. He truly is a legend of a man, and just showed why he is the greatest performer ever to be in WWE. I was honestly expecting him to say he was gonna "See" Undertaker at Wrestlemania because he wants to be the one to break the streak. But wasnt expecting the trashing of Cena, even though it was pretty cool and got an awesome reaction from the crowd. I wonder how it will play out.

It was one of the greatest moments in Raw history, maybe even WWE history as it was for the real fans, the ones who have stood by through everything, and for once, in the PG-era of WWE, we got a big pay off.
Looking forward to seeing more of The Great One!!!!!!1

Gerard.C

parker kent wrote: »

We are already talking about Cena being scripted. He COULD influence his promos. It is ridiculous to say otherwise. How come Punk, Jericho, HBK, HHH sound different to everybody else in the PG era? Because they influence their character. Cena, as the companies number 1 guy will have the power to influence his promos in a similar way.

Ok so they didn't have Cena win the Rumble. They just had him eliminate The Nexus on his own in about 2 minutes and then dominate until Miz interfered. The points about Hogan and Austin are not exactly relevant. It is not like anybody has came on and said "It was OK for them but not for Cena". I'm against all Super Hero style booking. It is ridiculous. Booking somebody as better? Sure it is expected. Booking them as Superman, not so.

We've already talked about whether The Rock is staying. I think it should be clear he is not. He is likely to only make 1 or 2 appearances before Mania too. I was never a mark for Rocky, but he did make a good promo last night.

How is booking someone as a Superman any worse than booking someone to be dead, alive, and dead again? Its fake like, there should be a superman. Why not? Ya need a good superhero to tell a good story!

Sorry but I didnt have the time to go through all the pages to see whether or not if the rock is staying has been discussed. If hes not, he blatantly lied to everyone. Thats why it bothered me - he said that "as dwayne".

Why would Cena change anything actually, since people are saying he could influence his promos. He seems to be doing grand to me. Every single person reacting one way or another to him every week is a job well done to me.

It was a good promo by Dwayne last night alright yeah. Its a pity he'll be gone again before the dust has settled.

flahavaj

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I don't mean any disrespect but why should they have to win over fans that will never take to him? Fair enough if you don't like him, but he was mega over at one stage before a part of the audience decided to reject him so I think the majority of fans that heckle him were at one stage fans of his. I honestly think it's a near carbon copy of what happened to The Rock after WM18 when the fans just got sick of him and longed for a former icon.

I think Cena's facial expressions are pretty good tbh. He has tended to do great in terms of getting heels over and getting the fans on his side with his sad face => . Like the way young kids reacted to him having to join Nexus for example. He might not be getting any Oscars but he does the job as well as anyone.

As regards Punk, I agree he is a great promo guy but I think that style of his will flop as a babyface, and his babyface work has to be viewed as poor in the grand scheme of things - certainly compared to guys like Rock and Cena. I agree he has coolness and humour but so does Cena, it's just different to his. But sure you're not going to be converted though are you?

I would add though that even PG Cena can do great promos. As Machismo Fan says it's about the material. He had a terrific one when he did his 'retirement' speech a few months back (shame they later made it look stupid but at the time it was great).

As for the influence he can exert on his promos, do we really need a top star throwing his weight about? He can't change the PG rating and that means he can't use words like 'ass' and the other edgier stuff he used to say. Didn't he joke about this recently when doing a promo - 'sorry guys this is a PG show I'm doing the best I can' or something along those lines? And didn't he say on Twitter that he was fined for using the word 'ass' in a promo a few weeks back? As I say, he is handcuffed by the environment he's in. Hogan could work in it but Hogan just had to say any oul' pap in that voice of his and the fans would like it. Hell, Warrior got over in that era just spouting complete rubbish.

Nail on head, Cena should be lauded for being a good company guy, unlike the likes of Lesnar that left vince high and dry after getting pushed to the moon. Instead he gets criticised for not throwing his weight about the place simpley ecause his style isn't to the liking of the minority on the internet.

parker kent

Saying "can we say something other than poop" is not throwing your weight around lads, lets calm down!

cena

Anyone get the seamus figure yet. Been too smyths a few times and its not been there

irish_stevo815

By the way, 42 Pages.........must be record for Raw.
Did last years Mania even get this much?

Gerard.C

flahavaj wrote: »

Nail on head, Cena should be lauded for being a good company guy, unlike the likes of Lesnar that left vince high and dry after getting pushed to the moon. Instead he gets criticised for not throwing his weight about the place simpley ecause his style isn't to the liking of the minority on the internet.

Great point. And thats why Kaval is back in the High Schools, after winning season two of NXT. If only more people would adjust their attitudes to be more like Cena. Wahey.

flahavaj

parker kent wrote: »

Saying "can we say something other than poop" is not throwing your weight around lads, lets calm down!

Nor is it the end of the world if he doesn't tbh. Not when most of the target audience probably think poopy references are cool.

Gerard.C

parker kent wrote: »

Saying "can we say something other than poop" is not throwing your weight around lads, lets calm down!

Yeah but who really cares if Cena says the word poop? Really like.

Watch a few of the promos between Cena and Wade Barrett from last year. The man knows when to turn it on. I've every faith in him.

parker kent

flahavaj wrote: »

Nor is it the end of the world if he doesn't tbh.

I would say the massive decrease in buyrates and ratings are related to Cena and his character dominating the WWE and alienating fans. Just look at the amount of people who posted on this thread saying they were fed up with the WWE and can't identify with Cena et al. The Rock seems to have rekindled an interest in those fans. Cena has played a big part in their alienation.

So him talking like an overgrown, roided 10 year old is actually a problem.

parker kent

Gerard.C wrote: »

Yeah but who really cares if Cena says the word poop? Really like.

Watch a few of the promos between Cena and Wade Barrett from last year. The man knows when to turn it on. I've every faith in him.

I was fairly obviously using poop to represent the childish, idiotic crap that comes out of his mouth in every promo.

Lads, there is a massive difference in a troublemaker like Low Ki and somebody like Cena making suggestions that will improve the product. There is a pretty massive gulf between those two, so those comparisons are not apt.

Cianan2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mKF5FLYeaQ

Epic moment being overlooked because of The Rock!!

Cena's gimmick just plain isn't funny, he shouldn't be making jokes. His in ring style has even regressed from a few years ago where he was much more technical. The Rock's style is based around familiarity imo, he wont do anything groundbreaking but the presence while he's gearing up for a rock bottom or people's elbow is second to none and his kick up thing is very cool. Cena is a good seller, which is where Rock really struggles.

Cena could have been a lot better than he is and this gimmick has been going on for far too long. This could be the WWE's fault as there really is nobody else to carry the mantle if he goes heel but it has to be done if they want to keep the older fans imo. I'd have no problem with Cena if I could even get a laugh out of it as he has good charisma and he can talk, also what happened to his accent? If I remember he had a very distinct Massachusetts accent when he came through which also has been abandoned.

flahavaj

parker kent wrote: »

I would say the massive decrease in buyrates and ratings are related to Cena and his character dominating the WWE and alienating fans. Just look at the amount of people who posted on this thread saying they were fed up with the WWE and can't identify with Cena et al. The Rock seems to have rekindled an interest in those fans. Cena has played a big part in their alienation.

So him talking like an overgrown, roided 10 year old is actually a problem.

Yes its all Cena's fault. :rolleyes:

Jesus christ.

Gerard.C

parker kent wrote: »

I was fairly obviously using poop to represent the childish, idiotic crap that comes out of his mouth in every promo.

Lads, there is a massive difference in a troublemaker like Low Ki and somebody like Cena making suggestions that will improve the product. There is a pretty massive gulf between those two, so those comparisons are not apt.

Do you watch Cena every week?

D.Q

It is pretty strange to me that people are taking away from that segment last night. It was undeniably brilliant. Tell me one segment in the last two years that was as good as that, or that prompted 42 pages of a Raw thread in under 24 hours.

As far as Cena goes, as the discussion turns to him and his style etc. I don't think Cena is the worst worker in the world, I'm not one of these "You cant wrestle" sort of chanters, however, if it was in any way catchy, I would definitely chant something along the lines of "You have never made me care about you in any way"

I just don't give a **** about him. I dont care if he wins, I dont care if he loses. I don't care if he is cheered or booed. I hate the fact that he is the top guy in the business. I don't understand it. I know, his merchandise, and I understand why Vince has him there. But I dont understand what people are buying into with him. While he is a good worker, he is by no means great. And while he is a good promo, he is by no means great.

Im not talking about him being an in ring technician, Im talking about basic wrestling psychology, that makes sense and gets a fan invested in matches. Look at miz-danielson for a very recent example.

Thats nothing to do with his "style". Thats him not caring, and not wanting to improve himself. 7 years or so now, he's been on top. People will say "ohh but he carried Khali and Umaga to a great match" So what. If youre main eventing for 7 years, and you have at most 10 memorable matches. That is not a good return.

As far as him on the mic goes, yeah he's not bad. But he lacks any natural charisma. He is just so goofy. He seems to have no clue when it comes to addressing the crowd. He seems to think that inconsistent volume levels convery his "passion" and I really don't buy into the whole sad puppy look he flashes around every so often.

Last night, as you can clearly see by my post, and previous posts in this thread was easily the best night on Raw since... eh, I'd say since "the old stonecold" returned to clean house during the invasion storyline.

And it hammered home, how this guy, who has been gone for seven years, could make me care more about wrestling in 20 minutes, than John Cena has been able to in seven years.

John Cena is a great company guy. No doubt about it. He has had some good matches. He has had some good promos. But I do not, and will not ever care about anything to do with him.

SlickRic

i marked like mad for Rocky.

but putting WWE's decreased buyrate down to Cena's character is lunacy.

the only things that he should be criticised for are some of his bad habits in the ring...like his shít punches, his shít execution of the STF and his occasional bad selling.

nothing any other wrestler hasn't done.

have a look back to Bret v Austin at WM 13, and see how fúcking ridiculously Stone Cold sells a leg that Bret is supposed to have crippled.

Cena is made the scapegoat in such a pathetic way it's untrue. like MNG said, Cena has the same problem Rock had circa WM18, except there's nobody like Stone Cold, Hogan or HHH to fill the void. only Orton, whose character they've kind of destroyed.

it's the writing and era that's the problem for the Attitude era junkies like ourselves. end of.

you can point to Jericho, Punk etc all day long for promos in the current era, but they are a couple of the best ever, AND, it's far easier to do a heel promo in PG world that the 18-35 males will enjoy, than a face one. look how Punk struggled. Batista. hell, even Jericho on his last comeback. Cena has still done THE best face promos of the last 6 years.

Cena is doing the absolute best he can with the promo material he's given, is a company man through and through so won't rock the boat, realising the bigger picture that this is the way the powers that be have chosen for WWE to go.

you'll all love Cena once he's heel, i guaran-fúcking-damn-tee you.

Ridley

Gerard.C wrote: »

Sorry but I didnt have the time to go through all the pages to see whether or not if the rock is staying has been discussed. If hes not, he blatantly lied to everyone. Thats why it bothered me - he said that "as dwayne".

I think some people are taking that line too literally. I took it as meaning he hasn't forgotten and abandoned where he came from or severed his WWE ties despite what some - Cena included - think.

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1607906/john-cena-challenges-rock.jhtml wrote:

"He's the guy I say I won't be like," he told MTV News. " 'Cause he — although a very, very successful actor and super-nice guy, consummate professional, one of the hardest-working guys I've ever met — he left the WWE."

I'm sure there's a comment by Cena to The Sun online somewhere criticising The Rock for not being back more often or something a couple of years ago.