Raw Thread 14/02 spoilers within

Diabhal Beag · 16-02-2011 12:46AM

Cena was the only megastar that WWE built up and made in the last 5 years that has stayed loyal. He's given **** lines but he's a company man. He's the main guy and that's why people still buy into him.

WWE haven't made any proper stars. They give the push and destroy any credibility (Swagger, Kingston, Miz, Morrison) and make them look like tools when they should be making them stars.

Rock did one thing that many people didn't notice. He took a massive **** on modern wrestling in how great he was. We have seen anything that great in years. That's WWE's fault and Rock showed this up.

flahavaj · 16-02-2011 12:47AM

SlickRic wrote: »

i marked like mad for Rocky.

but putting WWE's decreased buyrate down to Cena's character is lunacy.

the only things that he should be criticised for are some of his bad habits in the ring...like his shít punches, his shít execution of the STF and his occasional bad selling.

nothing any other wrestler hasn't done.

have a look back to Bret v Austin at WM 13, and see how fúcking ridiculously Stone Cold sells a leg that Bret is supposed to have crippled.

Cena is made the scapegoat in such a pathetic way it's untrue. like MNG said, Cena has the same problem Rock had circa WM18, except there's nobody like Stone Cold, Hogan or HHH to fill the void. only Orton, whose character they've kind of destroyed.

it's the writing and era that's the problem for the Attitude era junkies like ourselves. end of.

you can point to Jericho, Punk etc all day long for promos in the current era, but they are a couple of the best ever, AND, it's far easier to do a heel promo in PG world that the 18-35 males will enjoy, than a face one. look how Punk struggled. Batista. hell, even Jericho on his last comeback. Cena has still done THE best face promos of the last 6 years.

Cena is doing the absolute best he can with the promo material he's given, is a company man through and through so won't rock the boat, realising the bigger picture that this is the way the powers that be have chosen for WWE to go.

you'll all love Cena once he's heel, i guaran-fúcking-damn-tee you.

Boom. Nail. On. Head.

Gerard.C · 16-02-2011 12:51AM

Diabhal Beag wrote: »

Cena was the only megastar that WWE built up and made in the last 5 years that has stayed loyal. He's given **** lines but he's a company man. He's the main guy and that's why people still buy into him.

WWE haven't made any proper stars. They give the push and destroy any credibility (Swagger, Kingston, Miz, Morrison) and make them look like tools when they should be making them stars.

Rock did one thing that many people didn't notice. He took a massive **** on modern wrestling in how great he was. We have seen anything that great in years. That's WWE's fault and Rock showed this up.

... on the mic

glenjamin · 16-02-2011 12:54AM

Be interesting to add a poll here to see how many people are 'yay' or 'nay' when it comes to Cena.

The Rock's promo last night was the most entertaining thing to come outa the WWE in the last few years. You can't even compare Cena to him. Cena will never be The Rock nor will Punk, Jericho or any young and upcoming wrestler. The Rock is simply one of kind, end of.

As for all the Cena bashing I too am one who cannot stand the lad. His promos and his ring work is basically the same old crap every week but in all fairness there are no outstanding wrestlers out there any more who can actually wrestle AND deliver a top class promo. The likes of The Rock and Austin are a dying breed. It's not Cena's fault that the WWE is in the state it's in.

Diabhal Beag · 16-02-2011 12:55AM

Gerard.C wrote: »

... on the mic

Think I'd be more interested in what Rock is doing at Mania than anything Alberto (YAWN) Del Rio has ever done.

16-02-2011 12:58AM

Gerard.C wrote: »

... on the mic

so what? It's not like he was terrible in the ring and he built it up better than anyone.

Gerard.C · 16-02-2011 12:59AM

Diabhal Beag wrote: »

Think I'd be more interested in what Rock is doing at Mania than anything Alberto (YAWN) Del Rio has ever done.

Shur why bother making new stars at all then when the rock MIGHT show up, depending on how his acting career is going.

Pentecost · 16-02-2011 01:00AM

Diabhal Beag wrote: »

Think I'd be more interested in what Rock is doing at Mania than anything Alberto (YAWN) Del Rio has ever done.

I liked Del Rio initially but I'm getting a bit sick of him and his special ring announcer. Over exposure I think, they need to vary it a bit.

Gerard.C · 16-02-2011 01:00AM

Liam O wrote: »

so what? It's not like he was terrible in the ring and he built it up better than anyone.

Just saying, there have been FAR FAR better wrestlers than the rock. He was never the be all and end all of wwe imo. I was always an Austin man myself anyway.

Diabhal Beag · 16-02-2011 01:01AM

Gerard.C wrote: »

Shur why bother making new stars at all then when the rock MIGHT show up, depending on how his acting career is going.

Or when ****ing Diesel comes back and gets a bigger pop than any other star in ages. Closely followed by Booker. WWE is stale ATM and even you can admit most midcarders from 2001 are better than most of the main event nowadays.

D.Q · 16-02-2011 01:06AM

Gerard.C wrote: »

Shur why bother making new stars at all then when the rock MIGHT show up, depending on how his acting career is going.

Thats the thing though. They haven't. Which is why everyone cares so much that the Rock made a 20 minute appearance.

They have basically failed at getting people invested in the new batch of talent.

Even Cena, the main guy, went out last night and opened the show, it went down as someone said on here, like a lead balloon. Not even the kiddies were cheering.

Gerard.C · 16-02-2011 01:08AM

Diabhal Beag wrote: »

Or when ****ing Diesel comes back and gets a bigger pop than any other star in ages. Closely followed by Booker. WWE is stale ATM and even you can admit most midcarders from 2001 are better than most of the main event nowadays.

Nostalgia pop, and the suprise element. You dont see either of them in the main event of Raw every week. Its not TNA like.

Mid Carders are nearly always "better" than Main Eventers. Most midcarders from 2001 dont matter anymore anyway, since its ten years later like. I have accepted that the attitude ear is over, its not coming back, and I really enjoy the current product as a result. Obviously it wont be perfect every week. I dont mind some of their attempts at humour. People on here SLATE their humour. I read through a few pages of the raw thread and people tore that kiss cam segment asunder. It was grand like, what harm will taht 3 or 4 minutes do? I found the bits with the wrestlers fairly funny to be honest.

16-02-2011 01:09AM

Gerard.C wrote: »

Just saying, there have been FAR FAR better wrestlers than the rock. He was never the be all and end all of wwe imo. I was always an Austin man myself anyway.

what's wrong with liking both? I'd have the same reaction if it was Austin who came back last night.

The problem is that at this stage, they shouldn't need the likes of the Rock, Austin or even Triple H to be coming back to save the show. Who is going to carry the show when they stop coming back? There is nobody who can even compare to Cena and Punk at the moment. These two would be upper midcarders with the likes of Rock, Austin, Taker, Guerrero etc. and I can only see 1 or 2 others being able to break through to that status anytime soon. There is so much crap and 10 minute plugs some weeks that just make me do this :rolleyes: and while it doesn't have to be blood and guts every week there is a huge room for improvement.

Gerard.C · 16-02-2011 01:11AM

D.Q wrote: »

Thats the thing though. They haven't. Which is why everyone cares so much that the Rock made a 20 minute appearance.

They have basically failed at getting people invested in the new batch of talent.

Even Cena, the main guy, went out last night and opened the show, it went down as someone said on here, like a lead balloon. Not even the kiddies were cheering.

Or its because, as he said, he hasnt been around in years? The Rock was a huge star, of course people will care more about that then Cena, Nexus etc... considering the hype and speculation all week.

irish_stevo815 · 16-02-2011 01:14AM

Diabhal Beag wrote: »

Or when ****ing Diesel comes back and gets a bigger pop than any other star in ages. Closely followed by Booker. WWE is stale ATM and even you can admit most midcarders from 2001 are better than most of the main event nowadays.

Yes, as someone said here (or on some other forum), WWE are using the returns of HHH, Undertaker and The Rock, hell even Nash and Booker (if used), to sell this years Wrestlemania.
This to me screams:
A.) They have no faith in the their (so-called) main eventers - Miz/Del-Rio to sell the event.
B.) That they know the current WWE is ****ed up, and they want to go back to the stars of the glory days try and imporve their overall product.

Diabhal Beag · 16-02-2011 01:14AM

Gerard.C wrote: »

Nostalgia pop, and the suprise element. You dont see either of them in the main event of Raw every week. Its not TNA like.

Mid Carders are nearly always "better" than Main Eventers. Most midcarders from 2001 dont matter anymore anyway, since its ten years later like. I have accepted that the attitude ear is over, its not coming back, and I really enjoy the current product as a result. Obviously it wont be perfect every week. I dont mind some of their attempts at humour. People on here SLATE their humour. I read through a few pages of the raw thread and people tore that kiss cam segment asunder. It was grand like, what harm will taht 3 or 4 minutes do? I found the bits with the wrestlers fairly funny to be honest.

I liked the kiss cam segment too. The Cena humour is always terrible. Never really funny. In those terms most of the stars are scripted poorly too.

Rock was a great promo last night. It wasn't scripted (if at all) in the way they promos are done nowadays (PG isn't an excuse for **** promos).

D.Q · 16-02-2011 01:24AM

That certainly helped, of course it did.

But the reason everyone has gotten so excited about it, is because its such a breath of fresh air. People still care more about the Rock than anything the WWE have done since he left.

I'm not using the Rock as a stick to beat Cena with. Cena is Cena, he is there for a reason, and thats something I can accept, and have to see every week. But it really is a black and white indication about just how spectacularly they have failed at creating a new batch of stars. Sorry, more specifically, a new batch of babyface stars. Other than Cena... reaaally not alot happening there.

I think that is the best thing about the rocks return. It harked back to the days where a face could actually retain a certain degree of charisma and attitude.

Ultimately, I can see this angle failing.

Cena will be shown up as a poor replacement for the rocks of this world.

The rock will most likely receive some backlash if/when he heads off again.(although that is decidedly up in the air)

The wwe will further alienate fans such as myself and others, by trying to use the Rock to put over Cena in some way. People are talking about endorsing him etc.

Gerard.C · 16-02-2011 01:25AM

Diabhal Beag wrote: »

I liked the kiss cam segment too. The Cena humour is always terrible. Never really funny. In those terms most of the stars are scripted poorly too.

Rock was a great promo last night. It wasn't scripted (if at all) in the way they promos are done nowadays (PG isn't an excuse for **** promos).

Ya but thats the thing, the Cena humour lasts what, 30 seconds, every week? Blink and you miss it most of the time. I'd agree that something should be done about the scripts but it doesnt REALLY hinder my enjoyment of the show. I'm not saying this to you or anyone in particular at all - a few of my friends are wicked like this... but I think if some people took off the 98-2001 glasses for 2 hours every monday night they would enjoy raw a lot more

Diabhal Beag · 16-02-2011 01:38AM

Gerard.C wrote: »

Ya but thats the thing, the Cena humour lasts what, 30 seconds, every week? Blink and you miss it most of the time. I'd agree that something should be done about the scripts but it doesnt REALLY hinder my enjoyment of the show. I'm not saying this to you or anyone in particular at all - a few of my friends are wicked like this... but I think if some people took off the 98-2001 glasses for 2 hours every monday night they would enjoy raw a lot more

That's not it at all Ger. I enjoy good wrestling. You could almost use the "2001 tinted glasses" excuse for how bad TNA is. Maybe I just enjoy the idea of great wrestling shows as often as possible but I feel that I can't enjoy whatever David Otunga, Ted DiBiase, Randy Orton are doing.

Gerard.C · 16-02-2011 01:41AM

Diabhal Beag wrote: »

That's not it at all Ger. I enjoy good wrestling. You could almost use the "2001 tinted glasses" excuse for how bad TNA is. Maybe I just enjoy the idea of great wrestling shows as often as possible but I feel that I can't enjoy whatever David Otunga, Ted DiBiase, Randy Orton are doing.

Theres many things you could use as an excuse as to why that shower are so bad.

Everyone has wrestlers they dont like though thats the thing, and its strange sometimes. Like myself - I cannot stand the sight of John Morrison, even though he is a very good worker. I HATE the whole parkour thing. Thankfully theres plenty other people I do like, so my overall enjoyment of the show doesnt suffer if ya get me?

D.Q · 16-02-2011 01:43AM

^^I'm exactly the same.

It is so stale, and uninteresting. That when someone with talent and personality returns, its almost like a reward for the **** that they have been ramming down our throats for the past few years.

And I know, I should probably just stop watching. But I cant, because I know how good pro wrestling can be and was, so out of some sort of blind faith, I continue to watch, hoping that maybe it will swing back to how it used to be.(as a fan of Leeds Utd, this is nothing new for me) Not blood guts and swerves. But stories and matches that make me want to watch. Logical booking that makes sense and that isn't just forgotten about in a matter of weeks.

D.Q · 16-02-2011 01:45AM

Gerard.C wrote: »

Theres many things you could use as an excuse as to why that shower are so bad.

Everyone has wrestlers they dont like though thats the thing, and its strange sometimes. Like myself - I cannot stand the sight of John Morrison, even though he is a very good worker. I HATE the whole parkour thing. Thankfully theres plenty other people I do like, so my overall enjoyment of the show doesnt suffer if ya get me?

out of curiousity, who do you like currently? You seem to enjoy the current product more so than most on here. I would like to know what characters you tune in for?

For me, out of the current crop, Punk, Bryan and Seamus.

Diabhal Beag · 16-02-2011 01:49AM

Gerard.C wrote: »

Theres many things you could use as an excuse as to why that shower are so bad.

Everyone has wrestlers they dont like though thats the thing, and its strange sometimes. Like myself - I cannot stand the sight of John Morrison, even though he is a very good worker. I HATE the whole parkour thing. Thankfully theres plenty other people I do like, so my overall enjoyment of the show doesnt suffer if ya get me?

I know what you're saying but I think you're under-rated just how somebody like the Rock, when bringing something different to the usual Miz-Lawler or Nexus Cena/Orton table, blew these guys out of the water with the power of a promo. I get the feeling you think Rock got the nostalgia pop and there was an element of that, but moreso that a massive star was in there presence and worked the crowd more than what the best modern guys do.

WWE really built his return up well. The anticipation, the swerve and than the great suprise. They did this in a week and it was great. They ****ed up Nexus, destroyed any credibility in their big titles all very recently. They are way worse now than they were in 2001. And that isn't nostalgia talking because I first saw 1999-2002 stuff last year.

stiffler123 · 16-02-2011 01:52AM

Gerard.C wrote: »

Just saying, there have been FAR FAR better wrestlers than the rock. He was never the be all and end all of wwe imo. I was always an Austin man myself anyway.

Yes there have been better wrestlers than The Rock, but Cena isn't one of them. On the mic, The Rock wins hands down. In the ring, it's close but I would also go with The Rock. The main difference between the two for me though is selling. Cena does not like losing the belt at all, and will try to make the end look awful almost out of spite(See Sheamus fight), whereas The Rock has been far better at selling losses and has been in a larger number of decent matches too.

I'm not a Cena hater per say but I have gone off WWE since it went PG and have been watching TNA lately. Having someone like The Rock come back has instantly gotten me back watching the product, it's gotten me excited about wrestling for the first time in a while and probably a lot of other x-fans, hardly a bad thing. It will be interesting to see what the WWE do to keep these fans around when the Rock leaves again. Cena won't, unless maybe he turns heel. His face character is too cringeworthy to me.

flahavaj · 16-02-2011 01:54AM

stiffler123 wrote: »

Yes there have been better wrestlers than The Rock, but Cena isn't one of them. On the mic, The Rock wins hands down. In the ring, it's close but I would also go with The Rock. The main difference between the two for me though is selling. Cena does not like losing the belt at all, and will try to make the end look awful almost out of spite(See Sheamus fight), whereas The Rock has been far better at selling losses and has been in a larger number of decent matches too.

I'm not a Cena hater per say but I have gone off WWE since it went PG and have been watching TNA lately. Having someone like The Rock come back has instantly gotten me back watching the product, it's gotten me excited about wrestling for the first time in a while and probably a lot of other x-fans, hardly a bad thing. It will be interesting to see what the WWE do to keep these fans around when the Rock leaves again. Cena won't, unless maybe he turns heel. His face character is too cringeworthy to me.

Bolded part is pure rubbish.

Gerard.C · 16-02-2011 01:55AM

D.Q wrote: »

out of curiousity, who do you like currently? You seem to enjoy the current product more so than most on here. I would like to know what characters you tune in for?

For me, out of the current crop, Punk, Bryan and Seamus.

Alberto, Punk, Miz, Ziggler as of late, Bryan, Wade Barrett, Sheamus would be my favourites out of the newer batch. Nobody will every top The Undertaker though. My god what a man. I love the OTT side to wrestling. Thats the one problem I'd have with newer wrestling - nobody seems to enjoy the wacky side to it that much any more. I enjoyed Taker-Kanes fued last year. It was a laugh like.

I suppose its that WWE has always been there, and has always entertained me. I've obviously been annoyed by things they've done. But like WWE is number one when it comes to wrestling. I dont ever think god I wish it was like it was in 1999 again. We've been there. Its different now. Its like CM Punk said a few weeks ago, the world evolves and you have to evolve with it to adapt to your surroundings.

stiffler123 · 16-02-2011 02:01AM

flahavaj wrote: »

Bolded part is pure rubbish.

So you agree with the rest then? Sorry, maybe a little harsh on Cena there but I did think he fluffed the end of the match a bit(granted maybe not necessarily on purpose).

flahavaj · 16-02-2011 02:03AM

stiffler123 wrote: »

So you agree with the rest then? Sorry, maybe a little harsh on Cena there but I did think he fluffed the end of the match a bit(granted maybe not necessarily on purpose).

No that was the worst bit. I think in-ring Cena is better than Rock.

Gerard.C · 16-02-2011 02:04AM

Diabhal Beag wrote: »

I know what you're saying but I think you're under-rated just how somebody like the Rock, when bringing something different to the usual Miz-Lawler or Nexus Cena/Orton table, blew these guys out of the water with the power of a promo. I get the feeling you think Rock got the nostalgia pop and there was an element of that, but moreso that a massive star was in there presence and worked the crowd more than what the best modern guys do.

WWE really built his return up well. The anticipation, the swerve and than the great suprise. They did this in a week and it was great. They ****ed up Nexus, destroyed any credibility in their big titles all very recently. They are way worse now than they were in 2001. And that isn't nostalgia talking because I first saw 1999-2002 stuff last year.

Nah I didnt mean that the rock was the nostalgia buzz. He was a HUGE star. Him, Austin and Hogan will get that response every time I'd imagine. Theres no shame in being second to the rock on the mic like. A lot of how he worked the crowd was down to how much freedom he had I would assume, you have to keep that in mind. Look at how many times they ahd to try and censor him for saying ass like.

If on one hand, you have a PG Cena-Ortan et al show for the first time, and on the other you are seeing legendary fueds and matches from they "heyday" for the first time, I would imagine the older stuff would win. Growing up with WWE though you get to see them change and take different directions every few years. Its very interesting in many ways. We were only watching some 1998 raws there last week. Lads there was some amount of rubbish on it. The "attitude era" is blown out of proportion cos of the main event. I'd much rather Cenas comedy than the DOA vs The Truth Commission every week

rossie1977 · 16-02-2011 02:14AM

flahavaj wrote: »

Yes its all Cena's fault. :rolleyes:

Jesus christ.

i suspect if parker could find a way to blame cena for the global recession he would

was rock to blame when wwe ratings starting moving downward in 2002 and live attendances dropped dramatically

Raw Thread 14/02 *spoilers within*

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Raw Thread 14/02 spoilers within