Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

wild handlin · 03-02-2011 11:53am

Going no-where: while I agree with what you say about some comodities (such as food, clothing etc) but for the likes of heavy materials which are suited to rail are ideal. Again I ask; if practically everywhere else in the EU can manage it, then why not Ireland?

Foggylad: Im nearly sure that most freight operations are undertaken by the customer, rather than IE. All IE do is provide a driver and shunter, the likes of cement/timber/shale/bitumen/oil etc was all loaded/unloaded by the customer, therefore reducing costs.

westtip · 03-02-2011 1:23pm

wild handlin wrote: »

Going no-where: while I agree with what you say about some comodities (such as food, clothing etc) but for the likes of heavy materials which are suited to rail are ideal. Again I ask; if practically everywhere else in the EU can manage it, then why not Ireland?

Foggylad: Im nearly sure that most freight operations are undertaken by the customer, rather than IE. All IE do is provide a driver and shunter, the likes of cement/timber/shale/bitumen/oil etc was all loaded/unloaded by the customer, therefore reducing costs.

WH but what this thread is about - the Western Rail Corridor - the arguments to put this line back into operation to carry heavy duty freight which I agree is better on rail; from say Ballina just doesn't justify the expense or even the logic - I know dublin is logg jammed and an alterntive route for freight would be nice to have, to work freight around the bottlenecks on the system in Dublin but don't ya think double tracking the mainline routes sorting out the dublin bottleneck etc woudl have actually have more impact on improving rail services for the west. The passenger argument for WRC simply does not wash, the passengeer demand does not actually exist despite the loud noises made by WOT, the numbers simply aren't there. Any heavy duty freight should be in completly off peak times so as not to affect the lines around Dublin.

My long held belief is that the arguments about the west needs it (WRC) and must have regional balance etc don't wash on this one. Improve what is left of the rail network and don't dilute resources with this particular project - it adds so little value to the network as an interconnected whole, spend the energy on the campaign to make the existing rail network first class so it can compete with the much improved roads.

westtip · 03-02-2011 1:29pm

Victor wrote: »

Admittedly there may be a track removal cost that wasn't there for Mulrany.

Victor I think I have seen greenways in which the track has not actualy been lifted - merely filled the tracks with stones, put down a layer of tar or fine stone and rolled. Not dissimilar to a golf buggy track. Not perfect but cost effective and quick. but not sure such a quick job woudl be acceptable in these days of "best practice" and H&S standards required - there is no doubt a specificiation for greenways set out somewhere.

corktina · 03-02-2011 1:51pm

it is rather bizarre to seriously be advocating 125 mph tilting trains for the WRC...would CIE not be better off campaigning for their use on the Main Lines where they may be of some benefit?

Its worth pointing out that they are designed to tilt on high speed CURVES not low speed BENDS, but then again, im probably wasting my typing finger bothering.

Think of the BIG PICTURE not the archive movie of yesteryears failed railway line.

dermo88 · 03-02-2011 2:27pm

I notice one poster states his location as being 61m asl. Judging by the views expressed by them on railfreight, could we obtain clarification as to whether the "m" refers to metres, or miles.

Because if it is the latter, I would suggest that they get a return ticket to earth from the International Space Station and on their return obtain an Intermediate Certificate Geography textbook. Look for the section dealing with land use and planning. Learn what the "Core" is, and what the "Periphery" is. Learn about land usage, transportation, and learn that Ireland is on the edge of Europe, and its a ISLAND. You know.....one of those things surrounded by water.

Railways are expensive when they are not used correctly, or appropriately. This is why Rosslare to Waterford closed this year, and why Limerick to Ballybrophy will follow suit.

When they have done that, can they please come back and elaborate on what they have found in less than 300 words.

If they give the incorrect explanation, based on trainspotter fantasies and the fantasies of abortion bucket reject county councillors and second rate politicians, the rest of us will just laugh, and say.

"Election is coming"

Thank you.

foggy_lad · 03-02-2011 2:34pm

You just dont get it at all,

wild handlin wrote: »

Foggylad: Im nearly sure that most freight operations are undertaken by the customer, rather than IE. All IE do is provide a driver and shunter, the likes of cement/timber/shale/bitumen/oil etc was all loaded/unloaded by the customer, therefore reducing costs.

Reducing costs for IE or CIE but the overall cost is still PROHIBITIVE for the "customer" who has to pay for transfer to and from lorries several times. This is where the major cost is regardless of whether you are transporting logs, cement, shale, sugarbeet or other mixed container freight.

(Goods leave the factory by road freight after being man-handled onto lorries and are brought to rail depot where they are man-handled again onto a train where they go on their very slow journey to the depot nearest their destination, the bogey the goods are on may need more handling to change to a different train etc and on reaching the last depot the goods are once again man-handled onto road vehicles yet again for delivery to their destination.)

What most "customers" have found is there are massive savings to be made by cutting out the railway middleman.

As for the western rail services, well it has been proven that road travel for most passengers is very much faster and cheaper and for a lot of people a lot more comfortable, Ireland is just not big enough for branch lines and freight services on our railways and such services will see railways in ireland finished forever if people keep insisting they are viable.

R.I.P. WRC and Fastrack. they are both dead in Ireland so please be kind and bury them

Judgement Day · 03-02-2011 3:09pm

foggy_lad - I'm in a hurry to go and collect my kids from school so I'm posting this You Tube video to keep things on the boil until later when I will respond properly. Turn up the volume - there's nothing like the roar of a heavy freight loco.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwY27UHeq4k

foggy_lad · 03-02-2011 3:20pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

foggy_lad - I'm in a hurry to go and collect my kids from school so I'm posting this You Tube video to keep things on the boil until later when I will respond properly. Turn up the volume - there's nothing like the roar of a heavy freight loco.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwY27UHeq4k

So the answer then is cripple the country and bugger any possible chance of Irish Rail becoming profitable just so some Auld enthusiasts can get off listening to freight trains thundering along or so the same types can have their own little branch line way out west?

Transportuser09 · 03-02-2011 4:05pm

Would it be possible to fit both a greenway and 5'3 gauge rail line on the same alignment (built for single track?). It is a great idea otherwise.

the western fail corridor is never going to pay its way or become anything more than a greenway when lines like it and waterford-limerick jctn are shut down due to losses and low passenger numbers as well as shortages in rolling stock and the cost of gatekeepers and cost of running crews around the country in taxis.

What railway line is profitable in this country? Theres always going to be costly overheads. What baffles me is that some of the people who were against IÉ closing the Rosslare to Waterford line (which served a few small villages - I still didnt agree with it closing but just to put it into perspective) are against a line linking two cities, and potentially the commuter town of Tuam (I agree though Coolooney-Claremorris would be a ridiculous waste of money, Im not convinced about Claremorris-Tuam either).

Something should be done about reducing journey times on Galway-Limerick, but the fact that it is slower than road does not alone make it a failure, if it did we would be looking at closing the Dublin to Galway and Dublin to Belfast lines!

foggy_lad wrote: »

So the answer then is cripple the country and bugger any possible chance of Irish Rail becoming profitable just so some Auld enthusiasts can get off listening to freight trains thundering along or so the same types can have their own little branch line way out west?

But freight flows like the IWT, DFDS, Timber are profitable for IÉ, so it would actually be stupid for them to ignore them, flows like these help push the company towards being profitable. They certainly dont cripple its chances. The unprofitable freight flows were disposed of in the last decade.

dowlingm · 03-02-2011 4:09pm

While Ireland has only two directly connected ports I can't see railfreight getting much farther. If Bremore Port was done and rail connected on day one (and the Dublin Port vested interests told to go and sh!te with their expansion demands) then you could get the Tara Mines traffic out of the way of DART etc.

In the alternative, if the Poolbeg incinerator is knocked on the head Tara trains could haul hundreds of tonnes of baled refuse a day from North Wall to the incinerator near Slane. There must surely be efficiency in loading a train that is heading back empty anyway.

To add a western angle - the failure to relocate Limerick Port to Foynes has hindered the possibility of rail freight being sent out that way, such as ore from Silvermines.

DWCommuter · 03-02-2011 4:46pm

Transportuser09 wrote: »

What baffles me is that some of the people who were against IÉ closing the Rosslare to Waterford line (which served a few small villages - I still didnt agree with it closing but just to put it into perspective) are against a line linking two cities, and potentially the commuter town of Tuam (I agree though Coolooney-Claremorris would be a ridiculous waste of money, Im not convinced about Claremorris-Tuam either).

Let me put some perspective on that for you. Rosslare - Waterford was an operational line. The other lines aren't. Fix what you have before you build more broken stuff.

foggy_lad · 03-02-2011 10:07pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

Let me put some perspective on that for you. Rosslare - Waterford was an operational line. The other lines aren't. Fix what you have before you build more broken stuff.

Operational in what sense? It went to a bare platform in the middle of nowhere and there was no possibility of freight being brought by rail due to the handling costs involved, The tiny villages along the line were once much larger with many more passengers back in the days of the Railway Children but not in the 21st ventury, To provide proper services on this line would have probably doubled costs for crews and gatekeepers etc but would only very slightly improve numbers!

Limerick to Galway is operational also but is in the same boat as the Rosslare-Waterford line, more and more people are going to switch to bus and car now that the belts are being tightened especially when going out at weekends with the kids or shopping etc

WRC is too slow too dear and too much hassle due to timetable constraints

westtip · 03-02-2011 11:43pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

WRC is too slow too dear and too much hassle due to timetable constraints

And these are due to the fact there simply aren't enough people living in the towns it services to warrant anything more than it gets now. Before you do any business venture you should have a business plan looking at some fundamentals - supply - demand - market.

Supply and demand - the demand for the WRC does not exist - cos there ain't enough people (the market is made up of people). It's quite simple, but no one in authority seems to have the balls to say it. This whole WRC thins it totally about appeasing a small pressure group no more no less.

DWCommuter · 04-02-2011 12:53am

foggy_lad wrote: »

Operational in what sense? It went to a bare platform in the middle of nowhere and there was no possibility of freight being brought by rail due to the handling costs involved, The tiny villages along the line were once much larger with many more passengers back in the days of the Railway Children but not in the 21st ventury, To provide proper services on this line would have probably doubled costs for crews and gatekeepers etc but would only very slightly improve numbers!

Limerick to Galway is operational also but is in the same boat as the Rosslare-Waterford line, more and more people are going to switch to bus and car now that the belts are being tightened especially when going out at weekends with the kids or shopping etc

WRC is too slow too dear and too much hassle due to timetable constraints

Foggy, stay off the cocaine man:D. I was merely painting a very simple picture for Transportuser09 in relation to remarks made about those who supported the Waterford - Rosslare lines retention and were against further reopenings of the WRC. Its all very simple really. Read the facts. Critical analysis of the Waterford - Rosslare in this thread is counter productive. And your particular analysis of it is out of touch. Let me restate my opinion.

WATERFORD - ROSSLARE WAS OPEN!

ATHENRY - CLAREMORRIS IS CLOSED!

FIX WHAT YOU HAVE FIRST BEFORE REOPENING A SIMILAR PROBLEM. (as per my response to Transportuser09's post)

Westtip: offer up a thanks to this guy again and I will personally start a crusade against the Claremorris - Collooney Greenway.:D

Foggy - sometimes you make sense, but in general you come out with crap that just exaggerates the thinking of myself and others as if you just want to wildly go one better. Its blatant misrepresentation.

CIE · 04-02-2011 2:06am

DWCommuter wrote: »

WATERFORD - ROSSLARE WAS OPEN!

ATHENRY - CLAREMORRIS IS CLOSED!

FIX WHAT YOU HAVE FIRST BEFORE REOPENING A SIMILAR PROBLEM

Could you, without shouting this time, explain what exactly you perceive as a "problem"? never mind the relative relevance as to what line was closed and open? (Sounds like an argument for re-closing Cork-Midleton, in part.)

DWCommuter · 04-02-2011 2:18am

CIE wrote: »

Could you, without shouting this time, explain what exactly you perceive as a "problem"? never mind the relative relevance as to what line was closed and open? (Sounds like an argument for re-closing Cork-Midleton, in part.)

Read the last few posts carefully. It doesn't need translating or further explanation.

CIE · 04-02-2011 2:43am

DWCommuter wrote: »

Read the last few posts carefully. It doesn't need translating or further explanation.

Yes it does, with all due respect. What exactly is the "problem" being referred to?

foggy_lad · 04-02-2011 3:16am

"Foggy, stay off the cocaine man:D. I was merely painting a very simple picture for Transportuser09 in relation to remarks made about those who supported the Waterford -Rosslare lines retention and were against further reopenings of the WRC. Its all very simple really. Read the facts. Critical analysis of the Waterford -Rosslare in this thread is counter productive. And your particular analysis of it is out of touch. Let me restate my opinion. WATERFORD -ROSSLARE WAS OPEN! ATHENRY -CLAREMORRIS IS CLOSED! FIX WHAT YOU HAVE FIRST BEFORE REOPENING A SIMILAR PROBLEM. (as per my response to Transportuser09's post) Westtip: offer up a thanks to this guy again and I will personally start a crusade against the Claremorris -Collooney Greenway.:D Foggy -sometimes you make sense, but in general you come out with crap that just exaggerates the thinking of myself and others as if you just want to wildly go one better. Its blatant misrepresentation."

Waterford-Rosslare was closed for years but IR still ran a couple of trains a day just to give staff in Waterford and the gatekeepers on the line something to do.

The line has not had enough passengers to keep it operational in well over 20 years.

As for cocaine, I never have and never will use/abuse the drug.

And to the discussion of the whole Waterford-rosslare situation i did not bring that into the thread just responded and always managed to do my best to also include comparisons etc with the wrc just to keep things on thread.

Fix what you have first. Well the Waterford-rosslare line has been well and truly fixed and with any luck and good sense the ballybrophy branch line and the western rail corridor in its entirety will be next.

You may apologise at any time for calling me a junkie. And afaik west tipp can thank people for as many posts as they chose and are not required to take instruction from you on whose posts they are allowed thank

CIE · 04-02-2011 3:30am

foggy_lad wrote: »

Fix what you have first. Well the Waterford-rosslare line has been well and truly fixed and with any luck and good sense the ballybrophy branch line and the western rail corridor in its entirety will be next

So evisceration of transport infrastructure is what "luck and good sense" consists of?

DWCommuter · 04-02-2011 9:42am

foggy_lad wrote: »

"Foggy, stay off the cocaine man:D. I was merely painting a very simple picture for Transportuser09 in relation to remarks made about those who supported the Waterford -Rosslare lines retention and were against further reopenings of the WRC. Its all very simple really. Read the facts. Critical analysis of the Waterford -Rosslare in this thread is counter productive. And your particular analysis of it is out of touch. Let me restate my opinion. WATERFORD -ROSSLARE WAS OPEN! ATHENRY -CLAREMORRIS IS CLOSED! FIX WHAT YOU HAVE FIRST BEFORE REOPENING A SIMILAR PROBLEM. (as per my response to Transportuser09's post) Westtip: offer up a thanks to this guy again and I will personally start a crusade against the Claremorris -Collooney Greenway.:D Foggy -sometimes you make sense, but in general you come out with crap that just exaggerates the thinking of myself and others as if you just want to wildly go one better. Its blatant misrepresentation."

Waterford-Rosslare was closed for years but IR still ran a couple of trains a day just to give staff in Waterford and the gatekeepers on the line something to do.

The line has not had enough passengers to keep it operational in well over 20 years.

As for cocaine, I never have and never will use/abuse the drug.

And to the discussion of the whole Waterford-rosslare situation i did not bring that into the thread just responded and always managed to do my best to also include comparisons etc with the wrc just to keep things on thread.

Fix what you have first. Well the Waterford-rosslare line has been well and truly fixed and with any luck and good sense the ballybrophy branch line and the western rail corridor in its entirety will be next.

You may apologise at any time for calling me a junkie. And afaik west tipp can thank people for as many posts as they chose and are not required to take instruction from you on whose posts they are allowed thank

Relax Foggy. I was joking. Didn't you see the smiley? Here's another one.:D

westtip · 04-02-2011 10:46am

DWCommuter wrote: »

Relax Foggy. I was joking. Didn't you see the smiley? Here's another one.:D

I had several glasses of red - I am not even sure which post I thanked I am also now getting totally confused on who stands where on certain issues.

I think DW we are in agreement.

Of course I can see the merit of high speed trains from Claremorris to Collooney. Always have in fact a high speed link from Waterford to Kiltimagh has always been my alternative agenda:D

Propellerhead · 04-02-2011 11:39am

So, thread summary so far:

Trains are bad, mm'kay?

Kill trains.

Except maybe for the Eurostar. That's cool.

Throw rocks at anyone who says otherwise.

Continue circle until only four posters left.

Result.

westtip · 04-02-2011 12:38pm

Propellerhead wrote: »

So, thread summary so far:

Trains are bad, mm'kay?

Kill trains.

Except maybe for the Eurostar. That's cool.

Throw rocks at anyone who says otherwise.

Continue circle until only four posters left.

Result.

I don't think the anti-WRC brigade on this thread say trains are bad, nor are rocks being thrown - I think the likes of DW corktina and others have just been constant in their arguments that the WRC is a distraction and that improvements on the overall network are far more important than opening a branch line, the thread seems to re-awaken itself from time to time when articles like Frank McDonalds appear, his article has it seems stirred a few debates again - I have no doubt the thread will now hibernate for a while.

Transportuser09 · 04-02-2011 3:38pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Waterford-Rosslare was closed for years but IR still ran a couple of trains a day just to give staff in Waterford and the gatekeepers on the line something to do.

No, was not closed until last September. The reason it remained open from the 1970s on was that the sugar beet industry made the line remotely profitable to run. That went five years ago and since then the line was less economical to run (yes that may have been IÉ's fault but that's another story). They didn't keep it open to simply give staff "something to do". I do not know where you got that idea from.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Fix what you have first. Well the Waterford-rosslare line has been well and truly fixed and with any luck and good sense the ballybrophy branch line and the western rail corridor in its entirety will be next.

I'm sure even those opposed to its reopening would not be in favour on the WRC closing so soon, you're actually advocating that it's sensible to close something after so much money was recently spent rebuilding it?

westtip · 04-02-2011 3:45pm

I recently emailed Barry Kenny asking for figures on the WRC to be broken down Ennis - Limerick Journies, Athenry - Galway journies and total journies Ennis -Athenry;

Total passenger journeys between Limerick and Galway for 2010 were 110,000. This in line with predictions
We do not have any broken down figures available

Kind regards

Sent to me by his PA.

I have sent this email

I find it hard to believe – in fact I don’t believe. That you don’t have more detailed figures. The re-opening of the line from Ennis to Athenry was an important capital project funded by the taxpayer, I simply cannot believe that Irish Rail have not been keeping a close monitor on the uptake of usage on this line. It beggars belief which is why I don’t believe it. I will make a formal request to the new minister of transport when he/she is in place to get the detailed breakdown, How does your company do its planning process if you don’t hold the most basic information on your current services.

I will ask once again – Can I please have figures which show the usage of this section of line – Ennis to Athenry for 2010, the total journies on Ennis – Limerick and the total journies (excluding Dublin in bound and outbound) for the line from Athenry to Galway.

If you don’t have these details to hand – perhaps you could ask within the organisation how will you be monitoring usage of the new section of line and who would this data be reported to the Minister of Transport of Board of IE if they were to ask for it.

steamengine · 04-02-2011 4:20pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

So the answer then is cripple the country and bugger any possible chance of Irish Rail becoming profitable just so some Auld enthusiasts can get off listening to freight trains thundering along or so the same types can have their own little branch line way out west?

I am going to stick my neck out, expecting it will be most likely chopped off, knowing full well the ire that enthusiasts attract on this forum. Rail tour specials run on a regular basis during the summer months could well feed into the viability of this line now that it is up and running. Watching the 2nd last programme in the series of 'Great British Railway Journeys' last night showed how 'West Coast Railways' a rail charter company run both diesel and steam specials on the 'West Highland Route' in Scotland. From what I understand, various preservation groups provide them with the locomotives and carriages. No doubt the commitment by these volunteers help considerably to keep costs down. So while others will give a hundred reasons why this line won't work, at least the enthusiasts will give one or two on how to make it work based on current practice elsewhere.

Only a suggestion, but before I run for cover, take a peek at one of these specials in action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wAwoK5kju8

corktina · 04-02-2011 4:27pm

oh yes the West Highland Line , thats the same.

Regular railtours over the line are a good idea BUT take a look at the VERY long list of failed Railtour Companies in the UK. Only very few are consistantly sucessful...the West Coast Steam operation (mostly in Scotland) and the VSOE being two examples.
Id say the most you can hope for is a RPSI train once a year (assuming they wont want to go other places with their annual shindig (which Ive been on and is excellent)

westtip · 04-02-2011 4:43pm

steamengine wrote: »

I am going to stick my neck out, expecting it will be most likely chopped off, knowing full well the ire that enthusiasts attract on this forum. Rail tour specials run on a regular basis during the summer months could well feed into the viability of this line now that it is up and running. Watching the 2nd last programme in the series of 'Great British Railway Journeys' last night showed how 'West Coast Railways' a rail charter company run both diesel and steam specials on the 'West Highland Route' in Scotland. From what I understand, various preservation groups provide them with the locomotives and carriages. No doubt the commitment by these volunteers help considerably to keep costs down. So while others will give a hundred reasons why this line won't work, at least the enthusiasts will give one or two on how to make it work based on current practice elsewhere.

Only a suggestion, but before I run for cover, take a peek at one of these specials in action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wAwoK5kju8

It is an interesting concept I saw the programme too, I think Michael Portillo is great the way he has transformed himself from politician to broadcaster anyway I am sure the IMF will be delighted with the idea of spending money on a capital project for transport in order that we can maximise use of steam train excursiions to justify it. If the line were open and in use yes use it for this purpose - but re-open a line with this in mind, now you may as well join me and say turn it into a greenway. as for the electorate what on earth do you think people would say - the west of ireland would lose all credibility. there are hospital wards closing, leaking roofs in schools, potholes in roads oh and I forgot to mention we are so much in hock we have to ask permission of the IMF to spend a cent. so lets open a railway that will struggle to justify itself but don't worry we will run a few steam trains down it once or twice a week in teh summer. yes indeed Steamie you have stuck your neck out.!

steamengine · 04-02-2011 5:18pm

westtip wrote: »

It is an interesting concept I saw the programme too, I think Michael Portillo is great the way he has transformed himself from politician to broadcaster anyway I am sure the IMF will be delighted with the idea of spending money on a capital project for transport in order that we can maximise use of steam train excursiions to justify it. If the line were open and in use yes use it for this purpose - but re-open a line with this in mind, now you may as well join me and say turn it into a greenway. as for the electorate what on earth do you think people would say - the west of ireland would lose all credibility. there are hospital wards closing, leaking roofs in schools, potholes in roads oh and I forgot to mention we are so much in hock we have to ask permission of the IMF to spend a cent. so lets open a railway that will struggle to justify itself but don't worry we will run a few steam trains down it once or twice a week in teh summer. yes indeed Steamie you have stuck your neck out.!

I fear you have missed my point completely. I was referring to the already open portion of the WRC ie Limerick-Galway. Not talking about a further capital project at all. Merely pointing out that 'specials' either steam or diesel hauled are economically viable, due to high patronage and could serve to bring tourism to the surrounding areas, thereby making the route less un-viable than it is at present. As you may know 'tourism' has been earmarked as one of the planks of economic recovery which leads me now to ask you if you think that the existing portion of the WRC could have a role in that regard ???

corktina · 04-02-2011 5:28pm

what this country is lacking is a really good preserved line for all us chuffer nutters.

However its also missing Volunteers to build it/run it, stock to operate it and tourists to pay for it, not to mention the expertise to maintain the locos.

Id love to see it happen (the Kanturk and Newmarket Line would be just right ;-)

interlocked · 04-02-2011 6:37pm

corktina wrote: »

no there isnt....not VIABLE railfrieght anyway. Name one flow that could be instigated where trucks wouldnt be quicker and/or cheaper. This country is too small, the longest possible railhaul from port to customer would be about 100 miles.

Oh,the potential flows are there all right. You don't think that logistics companies seek to run trains as a hobby do you!

I strongly suspect that events in the next 12 months may make your original statement look very foolish. And they're going to come out of left field...

BTW, who knows, we may even see a freight marketing blitz by Irish Rail in the near future, promoting the only profitable arm of their operation. The penny is very, very slowly dropping in that organisation, more out of necessity than anything else.

corktina · 04-02-2011 6:42pm

i dont think so... please give examples rather than making a bland coverall statement

foggy_lad · 04-02-2011 7:36pm

CIE wrote: »

So evisceration of transport infrastructure is what "luck and good sense" consists of?

Surely it can only be called infrastructure if it can actually be used without costing the budget of a small country to get it "operational"

Transportuser09 · 04-02-2011 7:59pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Surely it can only be called infrastructure if it can actually be used without costing the budget of a small country to get it "operational"

What costed the budget of a small country?

But to be realistic, infrastructure by it's very nature costs a hefty amount of money to get operational. I think this has been done to death, people are entitled to their opinions, but I think that it's too early to judge the success or otherwise of the WRC. Its provided a framework to build and improve upon in the future. A brand new rail line would have cut journey times but would have cost much, much more.

Its not always about money, CIÉ has a certain amount of social obligation to ensure that places like Nenagh, Roscrea, Wellington Bridge, etc... have some form of transport service. Hospitals cost the state money too, should we get rid of them? It would save money would it not. Motorways cost alot of money to get operational too. As do Airport terminals. I could go on.

On a different note, I am puzzled sometimes when the Coolooney-Claremorris bit is still brought into the debate - it was never given approval for reopening under the T21 plan. The cycle-way is a good use of the alignment, walkways have been done on other closed lines, its not likely to ever reopen to rail travel. I am surprised Tuam-Claremorris was part of T21.

foggy_lad · 04-02-2011 8:06pm

Transportuser09 wrote: »

No, was not closed until last September. The reason it remained open from the 1970s on was that the sugar beet industry made the line remotely profitable to run. That went five years ago and since then the line was less economical to run (yes that may have been IÉ's fault but that's another story). They didn't keep it open to simply give staff "something to do". I do not know where you got that idea from.

I'm sure even those opposed to its reopening would not be in favour on the WRC closing so soon, you're actually advocating that it's sensible to close something after so much money was recently spent rebuilding it?

All I am saying is the line is not and never will be profitable and realistically is of little value as infrastructure so rather than have this and other useless lines bleed the company and the country dry it would be better if the line had not been reopened and it will be cheaper in the long run to close the lines instead of throwing more good money after bad.

CIE · 06-02-2011 5:54am

foggy_lad wrote: »

Surely it can only be called infrastructure if it can actually be used without costing the budget of a small country to get it "operational"

It's not the case though, is it? Certainly has not been the case in the currently operational segment of the thread's subject.

foggy_lad wrote: »

All I am saying is the line is not and never will be profitable

Nobody has any evidence of that. The only way to judge such a thing is to get the railway and its competing modes completely out of the public sector, and thus away from market distortion by the government; but if nobody's going to do that, then no complaints about any piece of transport infrastructure/operation failing to be "profitable" ought to be raised. (Show us one that is indeed "profitable" in that case.)

corktina · 06-02-2011 10:00am

you are about to see a change in Govt....if the alleged policy towards railways stays the same, will you accept that that is the will of the people and stop being on about "government distortion"?

westtip · 06-02-2011 8:25pm

Transportuser09 wrote: »

On a different note, I am puzzled sometimes when the Coolooney-Claremorris bit is still brought into the debate - it was never given approval for reopening under the T21 plan. The cycle-way is a good use of the alignment, walkways have been done on other closed lines, its not likely to ever reopen to rail travel. I am surprised Tuam-Claremorris was part of T21.

Definitley me guilty of keeping this on the WRC agenda, glad you agree with the fact it is not ever going to be re-opened T21 actually states preserve and protecet the alignment and there is no actual mention of ever re-opening it - even West on Track don't directly claim its going to happen and constantly demand that phase 2 and 3 gets completed (ie Athenry ~Tuam and ~Tuam - Claremorris), they will not however give up their long cherished aim to open the line the whole way. If they would at least have the dignity to give up on this absolute no-hoper and back the greenway I think they would gain more respect from other quarters. alas this is not going to happen. A greenway with huge focus on using the railway heritage though would be a great use as many of us agree here, but there is a mindset out there that will not change, and the opportunity is slipping by.

Victor · 07-02-2011 3:09am

dowlingm wrote: »

In the alternative, if the Poolbeg incinerator is knocked on the head Tara trains could haul hundreds of tonnes of baled refuse a day from North Wall to the incinerator near Slane. There must surely be efficiency in loading a train that is heading back empty anyway.

This would need to use separate wagons - you couldn't have a situation that could lead to lead dust in the incinerator. But would be eminently possible with a train of half and half (or perhaps one third / two thirds, given that a wagon of lead ore is so much heavier than one of rubbish).

From Tara: [Lead ore(full)] x 5 + [Rubbish(empty)] x 10 + [Loco]

From Dublin: [Lead ore(empty)] x 5 + [Rubbish(full)] x 10 + [Loco]

dowlingm · 07-02-2011 4:24am

Never thought of the lead dust angle. Depending on bale size I guess the bales could be put into clean "liners" fitted to drop into the wagons with the bales then lifted out of the liners and the liners washed and roadfreighted to North Wall for preloading of the next run but that would be more complex.

westtip · 08-02-2011 3:45pm

Good piece in Western People about the huge success of Newport Mulranny Greenway this week "With the Great Western Greenway bringing huge volumes of visitors to Muranny" is one of its phrases.

my guess is there are more people using the Great Western Greenway than the rail line from Ennis to Athenry.

dowlingm · 08-02-2011 6:59pm

westtip wrote: »

Good piece in Western People about the huge success of Newport Mulranny Greenway this week "With the Great Western Greenway bringing huge volumes of visitors to Muranny" is one of its phrases.

my guess is there are more people using the Great Western Greenway than the rail line from Ennis to Athenry.

Any idea what huge is defined as in Mulranny? 10 people a month? a week? a day? an hour? Being familiar with local newspapers (like "the Avondhu"

) scale means something different to that level of media.

westtip · 08-02-2011 10:02pm

dowlingm wrote: »

Any idea what huge is defined as in Mulranny? 10 people a month? a week? a day? an hour? Being familiar with local newspapers (like "the Avondhu" ) scale means something different to that level of media.

Try this for huge (in mulranny terms) I got this email from the walking officer at Mayo county council in January, I have taken my personal name and the name of the walking officer you can contact her via Mayococo.ie for verification, if you want a copy of the email PM me. I doubt the ennis - Athenry line has 100 users a day.

To answer your question the greenway a week its about 2,500, per month its about 10,000 in the summer and the figures keep going up, I don't know the percentage that stay overnight in the area but again this is anedotal evidence on one ocassion I did the trail I met a lady who ran a B&B in Newport - she had closed her business but re-opened it this year and has turned people away every weekend ....contribution to local economy versus some tuppeny bit railway???? work it out for yoruself. A shopkeeper in Newport told me his increase in sales in incrementals like bottles of coke, water, chocolate and crisps - snacking food with high margins had increase by about 200 a day in the summer this year. When I asked him - he said its people like you who have done the trail just dropping in for a coke and mars bar type thing, he said "its completely changed tourism in this town"

this is the copy of an email I received in January 2011 from the Mayo Coco walking officer:

Hi xxxxx

Just to give you an idea of the usage along the Great Western Greenway, during mid week of holiday times we have recorded up on 300 participants using the facility. On most weekends there are up on a 1000 users. We are also experiencing quiet a number of groups organizing events along the facility for fund raising purposes.

Also within the west mayo area, a new bike hire operator has recently established and there are up on three people working directly within that business.

Regards,

xxxxxxxx

DM are these the kind of figures you had in mind??? I was arguing for the Greenway on the WRC long before this Greenway opened, if peope woke up to the realities of what the west of Ireland needs - better facilities for tourists to come and use - instead of chuntering on about a bloody branch line from athenry to claremorris and beyond, to pander to the demands of a very small minority of lets face it "railway enthusiasts" then we might actually do the west a favour, because any rationale argument for the western rail corridor has long since disappeared!

Judgement Day · 08-02-2011 10:34pm

westtip wrote: »

Try this for huge (in mulranny terms) I got this email from the walking officer at Mayo county council in January, I have taken my personal name and the name of the walking officer you can contact her via Mayococo.ie for verification, if you want a copy of the email PM me. I doubt the ennis - Athenry line has 100 users a day.

To answer your question the greenway a week its about 2,500, a month about 10,000 in the summer and the figures keep going up, if 5% stay overnight its an exta 50 beds a night in the area sold....contribution to local economy versus some tuppeny bit railway???? work it out for yoruself

Jeez, if numbers keep going like that you'll be needing the rail service to Achill reinstated but you'll have to wait until we get the Burma Road done first.

DWCommuter · 09-02-2011 12:57am

Judgement Day wrote: »

Jeez, if numbers keep going like that you'll be needing the rail service to Achill reinstated but you'll have to wait until we get the Burma Road done first.

Probably bigger numbers now than when it was a railway.:D

There's money in tourism once we realise that tourism is strictly out of bounds for tacky over priced Celtic Tiger Hotels and ****ty attractions propped up by grants and infected by self indulgence.

This Greenway idea is fantastic and as a railway fan I'd rather see it done (incorporating the lines history to some degree) than leaving it to the Wizard of Oz whims of WOT or the careless disregard of locals. If this opinion is interpreted as some sort of agenda against WOT then it only highlights a bizarre paranoia amongst WRC supporters.

Personally I don't think the WRC has anything to offer, but any initiative that preserves the alignment and offers a potential economic boost to the region should be embraced a lot quicker than the Celtic Tiger influenced railway demand from people who know absolutely nothing about either railways or reality.

westtip · 09-02-2011 1:52am

DWCommuter wrote: »

Probably bigger numbers now than when it was a railway.:D

There's money in tourism once we realise that tourism is strictly out of bounds for tacky over priced Celtic Tiger Hotels and ****ty attractions propped up by grants and infected by self indulgence.

This Greenway idea is fantastic and as a railway fan I'd rather see it done (incorporating the lines history to some degree) than leaving it to the Wizard of Oz whims of WOT or the careless disregard of locals. If this opinion is interpreted as some sort of agenda against WOT then it only highlights a bizarre paranoia amongst WRC supporters.

Personally I don't think the WRC has anything to offer, but any initiative that preserves the alignment and offers a potential economic boost to the region should be embraced a lot quicker than the Celtic Tiger influenced railway demand from people who know absolutely nothing about either railways or reality.

DW thanks for that, indeed I am thinking now Greenway the whole line from Sligo to Athenry cos in reality having seen the latest news about another 15 billion needed for the banks, we all know now this project is not going to happen. I also agree that there is a big opp to really make a big thing of the railway heritage and get this done properly - it could be a massive tourist attraction, anyway I am convinced the tide is turning on this one.

I've still got no figures on usage of the Ennis - Athenry section - anyone been on it of late. Irish Rail sent me an email saying they will only give out consolidated figures as separate figures for each section of the line would be "commercially sensitive" as they were shouting from the rooftops about how successful the line was after it had opened for a month (in April last year) and we have not heard a dickie bird since it would seem to suggest the restaurant theory has kicked in. - New restaurant opens everyone tries it - then interest wains and wains and wains until the inevitable happens.

Incidently they said 110,000 journies were made on the Limerick - Galway route last year - in line with expectations - what would the guestimate of that volume be for

a) Limerick - Ennis journies
b) Athenry - Galway journies
c) The bit in the middle journies to either limerick or Galway.

The last anecdotal report I read on this thread was pretty dire for item (c).

BTW any idea when the transport policy will be published of various parties for the election - all lies anyway as we know from the past.

westtip · 11-02-2011 11:10am

I have been having a number of emails back and forth with Irish Rail and the DOT about the usage figures on phase 1 of WRC. Of course jsut a civic interest to find out how success this "vital piece of infrastructure" is delivering on its service levels.

Irish Rail (IR) will only give an aggregate figure for the entire line (ie Ennis/Limerick commuting volume is now apparently all part of the success of the WRC phase 1), I have been informed the line - Limerick - Galway aggregate figure for usage in 2010 was 110,000
I quote from email received:

Total passenger journeys between Limerick and Galway for 2010 were 110,000. This in line with predictions

We do not have any broken down figures available

In April 2009 IR and WOT were shouting from the roof top about the massive uptake .....ahem so where are we now the novelty has worn off.

When challenged to provide information under the Freedom of information act I have been told are but IR are not covered under the FOI therefore we don't have to release the figures.

If the incremental volume on the line is say 30,000 journies a year - and this is a wild guess and my gut feeling is that it is very optimistic based on anecdotal evidence.

With 5 upward and 5 downward trains a day - over 360 days a year thats 3,600 trains a year, divided into 30,000 = 8.33 passengers per train on average. Of course in the rush hour there may be 12 people on a train and in the slower off peak times 4 people on a train - one thing is sure everyone will find a seat!

The reluctance and somewhat obstructive stance by IR to release the figures on the basis of "commercial sensitivity" is perhaps not as baffling as it might seem - they simply don't want the truth out there - this is the greatest white elephant ever built in Ireland and they don't want to have that much egg on their face.

wild handlin · 11-02-2011 11:23am

Just an observation...
Why was there no "fuss" when Limerick-Ennis was mooted at being re-opened? From the day the line re-opened it's linespeed was slower than the N18, yet I don't seem to recall any outbursts here on boards at the time.

Sometimes I recon a select few on here for whatever reason are determined to see it fail...interestingly the criticism soon turned into a quiet whimper when it was announced in the first few months that the patronage surpassed expectations. Remember how many said "after the first week it will be empty!!"

Anyway, carry on...

westtip · 11-02-2011 11:40am

wild handlin wrote: »

Just an observation...
Why was there no "fuss" when Limerick-Ennis was mooted at being re-opened? From the day the line re-opened it's linespeed was slower than the N18, yet I don't seem to recall any outbursts here on boards at the time.

Sometimes I recon a select few on here for whatever reason are determined to see it fail...interestingly the criticism soon turned into a quiet whimper when it was announced in the first few months that the patronage surpassed expectations. Remember how many said "after the first week it will be empty!!"

Anyway, carry on...

Ennis limerick made sense as a commuter branch line; the extension further north does not. There has been no such announcements about the patronage of the WRC north of Ennis surpassing expectations - yes after the first month numbers were seemingly good - but nothing since and anecdotal evidence shows poor patronage. It has nothing to do with speeds against the N18 - its about speeds versus a donkey and cart. The ludicrous claims made about the need for this line are simply mind boggling, it was however built - and the MOT clearly stated in May 09 and again in March 10 that the patronage and usage of this section of the line will be one of the key deciding factors on whether phase 2 and 3 takes place, this is why these figures need to be out in the open. If it is as WOT claimed it would be a stunning success then lets see the evidence - it has been up and running almost a year - so how many regular commuters does it have, how many people are using it at peak times, how many of the passengers are fare paying passengers. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask these questions. IR won't release the figures as they claim they are commercially sensitive. I am making an assumption and I might be wrong but the reason they won't release them is because they are frankly to embarrassed to admit abject failure.

DWCommuter · 11-02-2011 1:08pm

westtip wrote: »

Ennis limerick made sense as a commuter branch line; the extension further north does not. There has been no such announcements about the patronage of the WRC north of Ennis surpassing expectations - yes after the first month numbers were seemingly good - but nothing since and anecdotal evidence shows poor patronage. It has nothing to do with speeds against the N18 - its about speeds versus a donkey and cart. The ludicrous claims made about the need for this line are simply mind boggling, it was however built - and the MOT clearly stated in May 09 and again in March 10 that the patronage and usage of this section of the line will be one of the key deciding factors on whether phase 2 and 3 takes place, this is why these figures need to be out in the open. If it is as WOT claimed it would be a stunning success then lets see the evidence - it has been up and running almost a year - so how many regular commuters does it have, how many people are using it at peak times, how many of the passengers are fare paying passengers. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask these questions. IR won't release the figures as they claim they are commercially sensitive. I am making an assumption and I might be wrong but the reason they won't release them is because they are frankly to embarrassed to admit abject failure.

Just ask them for the 2009 figures for Ennis - Limerick. Do the maths and hey presto! At least it would provide some idea.

Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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