Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

Transportuser09

westtip wrote: »

Don't get me wrong on this whole WRC venture I am with Corky in his sentiments above - I just think this project has been very ill conceived from day one, and I will not be happy when all trains cease to run and we all jump in our cars as one poster has mentioned above, (Propellorhead your post is somewhat bemusing and btw the grannies can still get a bus for free). Fast moving well managed train services are great to move high volumes of people between meaningful centres of population - the WRC had its day - probably about 1925 it would have been at its peak - the rebuilding of a C19th realignment in a sparcely populated part of the country in a country that totally relies on roads for supply chain logistics , and spare me the green rubbish - when was the last time the Irish independent Times or Star, a or a loaf of bread or barrel of guinness came out west on the train - so spare me that sob story "those days are over, and in the past they shall remain".

Virtually all our rail routes are built on 19th century alignments. New motorways often provide a more direct alternative, such as Dublin-Belfast, but these rail routes still seem to remain successful in terms of passenger numbers.

westtip wrote: »

The WRC was just not meaningful and totally unjustified and has absolutely nothing to do with balanced regional development,

The fact that the route as a whole appears to being doing quite well in terms of passenger numbers suggests that it is meaningful to some citizens, otherwise the trains would be running empty.

westtip wrote: »

pray tell me what companies have set up here as a result of it opening???? answers on a postcard please - ie none.

The line is barely half a year open. You need to look at the bigger picture. It provides a framework upon which to build. There's nothing to say that a few years down the road it won't play a role in businesses setting up in the region. Although IÉ's attitude to freight at present won't help. Capital investment doesn't mean everything as to happen immediately, you have to look at the long term role the line could play in the region.

westtip wrote: »

It was all about the politics of envy Dublins got the Dart we want the corridor. complete and utter bollox.

That's a perception. I personally don't have a problem with the West getting a bit of infrastructure investment to help balance things out, and I'm from east of the Shannon so on my part it's not a case of 'the politics of envy' towards Dublin.

Transportuser09

Pete2k wrote: »

You could also have a train from Tuam and a train from Limerick merge in Athenry similar to what the Galway/Westport trains are doing in Athlone now.

Not a bad idea. Considering the ideal arrival time into the city for commuters will be the same regardless of origin point (and the same when it comes to outbound services in the evening peak) then this could theoritically work.

Victor

Pete2k wrote: »

I would imagine that should Athenry-Tuam go ahead then a passing loop (and station) will have been built in Oranmore by that stage. You could also have a train from Tuam and a train from Limerick merge in Athenry similar to what the Galway/Westport trains are doing in Athlone now.

I wouldn't call those operations successful.

rainbowdash

As mentioned elsewhere almost the entire rail network is built on 19th century alignment and most reopenings, WRC, Midleton, bits of the Luas and the one in Meath are all reopened along the traditional route.

Not only this but most of the motorway network has been built piecemeal and some bits of it are upgrades or previous bypasses and along traditional alignments.

The operating cost of the few miles between Ennis and Athenry can hardly be that high in any case.

The core issue is that development should only be allowed within 1 mile of each of the new stations and at high density housing levels too, but the parish pumpers won't let this happen.

Transportuser09

rainbowdash wrote: »

The core issue is that development should only be allowed within 1 mile of each of the new stations and at high density housing levels too, but the parish pumpers won't let this happen.

Exactly. That's what sensible planning is all about. If it's not properly enforced then it's hardly the fault of the railway network itself.

westtip

Transportuser09 wrote: »

Exactly. That's what sensible planning is all about. If it's not properly enforced then it's hardly the fault of the railway network itself.

But T09 it won't be properly enforced we all know that - and the scattered dispersed nature of our population out here in the west is one of the reasons the WRC is not meaningful to the majority out here. All the old issues we have debated long and hard here are coming back here in the last few posts. Dispersed population structure is one of the key issues.

Transportuser09 wrote: »

The fact that the route as a whole appears to being doing quite well in terms of passenger numbers suggests that it is meaningful to some citizens, otherwise the trains would be running empty.

You have said yourself this is anecdotal evidence, what does "doing quite well" actually mean. What is it doing in terms of % of capacity. Perhaps someone could tell us what the capacity of the line is based on current services and rolling stock in use and then we can do a % of capacity compared with other rail lines/services. Remembe what Dempsey said - use it or lose it.

Transportuser09 wrote: »

The line is barely half a year open. You need to look at the bigger picture. It provides a framework upon which to build. There's nothing to say that a few years down the road it won't play a role in businesses setting up in the region. Although IÉ's attitude to freight at present won't help. Capital investment doesn't mean everything as to happen immediately, you have to look at the long term role the line could play in the region.

Yes and No. There was that much hype about this line and how it was a critical piece of infrastruture etc etc - It would have been reasonable to assume there would have been a fairly quick uptake on using the line if there was that much unfulfilled need for it - Take the Luas for example - virtually a success from day one - Why because it was needed, people knew it was coming and just couldn't wait to avail of it - people had moved houses to be near the line. When it opened - bang from day one it got used and became part of the everyday life of thousands of people. People knew the WRC Ennis-Athenry link was coming - did they move house? did they say sure I'll wait a few years before I give it a try - No because there wasn't really a demand for it, because we ain't got the numbers.

Regarding its liklihood to attract businesses I have said it time and time again - Supply chain logistics on this small island are entirely road dependent in the year 2010. I am sorry to upset all train enthusiasts but wake up in the 21st century and smell the roses. The great days of railway freight in a small confined marketspace like ireland are over -- Yes moving stuff across continents it is still very important, but not in a country our size, we do not have large reserves of mineral raw materials to move around like coal, bauxite or iron ore (which should be rail dependent), yes we do a bit of forestry - but put is in a league with the big tree growers - and we are a tiny market. We do not have plains of wheat to move vast volumes of grain around, these are the important big movements that need doing by train - we just don't have that business.

Transportuser09 wrote: »

That's a perception. I personally don't have a problem with the West getting a bit of infrastructure investment to help balance things out, and I'm from east of the Shannon so on my part it's not a case of 'the politics of envy' towards Dublin.

Absolutely! but infrastructure we really need! and transport (yes subvented) services that serve the greater good for a greater number.

Pete2k

Victor wrote: »

I wouldn't call those operations successful.

The main problem with the splitting/merging in Athlone seems to be that the Westport train is usually packed and if anything needs the full 6 carraiges going to Westport with say another 3 going to Galway.

donvito99

Can I suggest boardsies who use this daily to take a picture of passanger numbers at their station Monday - Friday. Maybe this might clarify for some posters the actual passanger numbers, and not some WOT, IRN etc propaganda.

Transportuser09

westtip wrote: »

You have said yourself this is anecdotal evidence, what does "doing quite well" actually mean. What is it doing in terms of % of capacity. Perhaps someone could tell us what the capacity of the line is based on current services and rolling stock in use and then we can do a % of capacity compared with other rail lines/services. Remembe what Dempsey said - use it or lose it.

Agreed ancedotal evidence is by no means 100% accurate, but I've haven't seen any evidence to suggest the line (overall as apposed to individual stops) is not performing. Nothing can be certain until official figures are seen.

westtip wrote: »

Yes and No. There was that much hype about this line and how it was a critical piece of infrastruture etc etc - It would have been reasonable to assume there would have been a fairly quick uptake on using the line if there was that much unfulfilled need for it - Take the Luas for example - virtually a success from day one - Why because it was needed, people knew it was coming and just couldn't wait to avail of it - people had moved houses to be near the line. When it opened - bang from day one it got used and became part of the everyday life of thousands of people. People knew the WRC Ennis-Athenry link was coming - did they move house? did they say sure I'll wait a few years before I give it a try - No because there wasn't really a demand for it, because we ain't got the numbers.

The line is only a few months running, in time its possible that housing developments will occur near stations as has happened on other intercity routes. Granted though this is less likely in the case of Ardrahan.

westtip wrote: »

Regarding its liklihood to attract businesses I have said it time and time again - Supply chain logistics on this small island are entirely road dependent in the year 2010. I am sorry to upset all train enthusiasts but wake up in the 21st century and smell the roses. The great days of railway freight in a small confined marketspace like ireland are over -- Yes moving stuff across continents it is still very important, but not in a country our size, we do not have large reserves of mineral raw materials to move around like coal, bauxite or iron ore (which should be rail dependent), yes we do a bit of forestry - but put is in a league with the big tree growers - and we are a tiny market. We do not have plains of wheat to move vast volumes of grain around, these are the important big movements that need doing by train - we just don't have that business.

Agreed the days of wagons of goods for each station are long gone. However, it has been proven that there is some market for container load trains between locations convienent to the origination point of the containers and ports with rail facilities, as the liners out of Ballina have shown. Of course to be successful these require proper links to ports and industrial estates, with the right investment this could happen. However I won't hold my breath.

KevR

Pete2k wrote: »

I would imagine that should Athenry-Tuam go ahead then a passing loop (and station) will have been built in Oranmore by that stage. You could also have a train from Tuam and a train from Limerick merge in Athenry similar to what the Galway/Westport trains are doing in Athlone now.

As far as I know, the planned station at Oranmore does not include a passing loop! The carpark at the planned station is also going to be quite small especially when you consider the huge P&R potential with the M6 and N18 both passing right by the station at present (the M18 will replace the N18 in approximately 3 years and the M17 + M18 will both feed into the M6 East of Oranmore).

glineli

KevR wrote: »

As far as I know, the planned station at Oranmore does not include a passing loop! The carpark at the planned station is also going to be quite small especially when you consider the huge P&R potential with the M6 and N18 both passing right by the station at present (the M18 will replace the N18 in approximately 3 years and the M17 + M18 will both feed into the M6 East of Oranmore).

Kev, do you know exactly where the station is planned for? i was told it was out the coast road, not sure how true that is

Transportuser09

donvito99 wrote: »

Can I suggest boardsies who use this daily to take a picture of passanger numbers at their station Monday - Friday. Maybe this might clarify for some posters the actual passanger numbers, and not some WOT, IRN etc propaganda.

It might help give an indication alright, but as has been said before nothing can be determined for definate until official numbers are released. You'd ideally need a glimpse of every service which would be difficult for any users to undertake.

Whatever about WOT I don't believe there is any such thing as IRN propaganda. It's just a web forum like this one as apposed to a movement.

dowlingm

Pete2k wrote: »

I would imagine that should Athenry-Tuam go ahead then a passing loop (and station) will have been built in Oranmore

That should not be a hope - it should be a pre-requisite. As for joining/splitting, Galway-Limerick is supposed to get 22Ks when more show up (or at least one). This could allow for

• Dublin 22s being sent down to Limerick rather than held in Galway for the next Dublin slot or
• a pair of 22s being dispatched from the same slot ex Galway and splitting at Athenry with a Tuam 2700 following on in the slot the second service would normally have required.

Transportuser09 wrote: »

Whatever about WOT I don't believe there is any such thing as IRN propaganda. It's just a web forum like this one as apposed to a movement.

Their involvement in lobbying for the Nenagh commuter service put them above being "just a web forum". That's not a swipe at them, just a statement of fact.

Transportuser09

dowlingm wrote: »

.
Their involvement in lobbying for the Nenagh commuter service put them above being "just a web forum". That's not a swipe at them, just a statement of fact.

True enough but the majority of those who post to the site would not neccessarily been involved in this; most of them would be just ordinary posters like here.

Pete2k

KevR wrote: »

As far as I know, the planned station at Oranmore does not include a passing loop! The carpark at the planned station is also going to be quite small especially when you consider the huge P&R potential with the M6 and N18 both passing right by the station at present (the M18 will replace the N18 in approximately 3 years and the M17 + M18 will both feed into the M6 East of Oranmore).

You think the M17 will still get built the way the countrys finances are still heading? Now this is something I have very serious doubts about. Personally what I see happening is Fine Gael getting into power the next election and Enda shelving the very expensive M17 and building the relatively cheap (crap maybe, but still cheap) WRC all the way to Claremorris to appease a very powerful and effective lobby group based in his own county. And initally at least it will give him a very good PR boost, he's delivered the WRC for his own county and saved the country loads by not spending 'whatever' to build a big motorway that alot of people in the region do think is overkill (upgrading of the existing road is far more popular I think). We should at least know what this government plans re Tuam in the next few wks, the 150 yr anniversary of Tuam station is this month with an announcement due from the minister at the celebration being held in the town. What do others here honestly think will happen in the next few years?

rainbowdash

The M17 is built past Gort, so theres not that much left in finishing it, and with the interurbans all as good as done the M17 will be close to the priority list of whatever is left.

foggy_lad

What do others here honestly think will happen in the next few years?

there will be no continuation of the western rail folly this century

Pete2k

rainbowdash wrote: »

The M17 is built past Gort, so theres not that much left in finishing it, and with the interurbans all as good as done the M17 will be close to the priority list of whatever is left.

Thats the M18. The current N17 goes from Galway-Sligo. The proposed M17 will largely parallel the existing route except for the most southern part which will go Tuam-Athenry-Galway (using the M6) whereas the N17 goes Tuam-Galway direct.

Pete2k

foggy_lad wrote: »

there will be no continuation of the western rail folly this century

Is that what you hope will happen or what you think will happen? If Enda does get into power will he be able to ignore the WOT lobby group given that he will more than likely make a campaign promise to build the WRC to get more votes and have WOT behind him instead of putting out negative spin against him (and they are good at the PR and spin!)

KevR

glineli wrote: »

Kev, do you know exactly where the station is planned for? i was told it was out the coast road, not sure how true that is

I'm not exactly sure; details of the station aren't readily available from what I can see. I was under the impression that it would be to the North of Oranmore rather than to the West/Coast Road but I'm not so sure now because I have seen 'Garraun' mentioned in a few articles. It makes sense to have it to the North of the town as it will be a lot more easily accesible from the M6/N18 and it would also serve Oranmore Business Park. If it's over on the Coast Road, traffic from the M6/N18 will have to drive through the town(!) to access the station; it won't serve the Business Park and it won't be any nearer to the town in terms of walking distance.

Pete2k wrote: »

You think the M17 will still get built the way the countrys finances are still heading? Now this is something I have very serious doubts about.

The M17/18 Gort-Tuam will be a PPP scheme, it's not being directly funded by the taxpayer. The NRA have narrowed it down to just two consortiums and will select the winner of the contract in the next few weeks. Construction will start late this year or early next year.

foggy_lad

Is that what you hope will happen or what you think will happen? If Enda does get into power will he be able to ignore the WOT lobby group given that he will more than likely make a campaign promise to build the WRC to get more votes and have WOT behind him instead of putting out negative spin against him (and they are good at the PR and spin!)

there are more people that are concerned about mortgages bank loans lost investments and their jobs now than some pipe dream blast from the past. the second part of this great mistake will not be built be any sensible reasonable logical person! road transport is going to be sensationally faster even travelling by bus and will be far cheaper.

i can see Enda Kenny and Fine Gael losing power after the next election his seat as well as any respect voters ever had for him if he is to support this white elephant.

i would go so far as to suggest that "phase1" of this folly should be closed by the end of the month to guarantee the continuation of services on the waterford-rosslare line!

Pete2k

foggy_lad wrote: »

there are more people that are concerned about mortgages bank loans lost investments and their jobs now than some pipe dream blast from the past. the second part of this great mistake will not be built be any sensible reasonable logical person! road transport is going to be sensationally faster even travelling by bus and will be far cheaper.

I agree that the banks issue and rates of unemployment will be far higher on peoples priority list than the WRC however WOT will undoubtedly make sure the issue still gets airtime and put it in people's minds.

foggy_lad wrote: »

i can see Enda Kenny and Fine Gael losing power after the next election his seat as well as any respect voters ever had for him if he is to support this white elephant.

Given Enda is from Mayo can you honestly see him not supporting the WRC, he'll be labeled as abandoning his own people and not delivering in his own consticuency. I doubt he could afford to take the risk given it'll probably be a tight contest between Fine Gael and Labour.

foggy_lad wrote: »

i would go so far as to suggest that "phase1" of this folly should be closed by the end of the month to guarantee the continuation of services on the waterford-rosslare line!

You might suggest it but lets talk reality here, it aint gonna happen!

foggy_lad

It is a far more likely reality than any wrc phase2 getting off the ground!

westtip

Pete2k wrote: »

What do others here honestly think will happen in the next few years?

OK this is what I think will happen.

Collooney - Claremorris - will most definitely become a cycling/walking greenway as part of the National Cycle network. - please do read the document at the following link:

http://www.smartertravel.ie/download/1/FINAL%20NCNScopingStudyAugust2010.pdf

This will be a phenomenal success just as the Newport Mulranny line greenway has been a success - I did this yesterday evening - they are getting 300 people a day use it - including of course lots of locals but also lots of tourists and (internal tourists - like me last night driving an hour to get there). A publican said to me last night - it has transformed his busines this summer - that is an interesting description to describe pub trade in this recession. I wonder are over 300 people a day using the line from Ennis to Athenry (I doubt it). A local cyclist (lady in her mid 50s) told me her sisters B&B has trebled its business this year catering just for cyclists.

Anyone interested in old rail line infrastucture should do and see how life can be put back into an old railway like this. It is quite simply phenomenal.

The sale of cycle racks in the west of Ireland has shot through the roof (just ask the manager of Halfords in Sligo) because people are driving to Newport to "do the trail"

Tuam - Claremorris will stay on the long finger

As will Athenry - Tuam - although Dempsey will make a speechy in Tuam to say it is going to happen - I suggest the people of Tuam give a call to any contacts they have in Navan to ask what they would think of Mr. Dempseys promises.

The line will continue to lie idle. The National Cycle Network will be built starting with a long distance cycleway - off road from Dublin To Galway to Clifden utilising tow paths and closed rail lines, and possibly putting dedicated cyclelanes on the old national routes like the N4/N6

This will be a phenomenal success and the rest of Mayo will be clamoring to connect to it. Claremorris will then be connected to the National Cycle Network using the alignment of the WRC from Claremorris to Athenry with the promise that the greenway will be built so that the railway can be acomodated in the future alongside - this will be driven by Mayo County Council who have a very active agenda in developing walking and cycling tourism.

Enda is the leader of FG he is also a keen cyclist and can see for himself in county Mayo what is happening in Newport and Mulranny - He will endorse and follow the FG manifesto which will also committ to complete the NCN, the FG tourism policy will have a committment to open greenways on unused rail lines.

If you want to know more about why activity and cycling tourists are keeping away from ireland read this piece of research done by Failte Ireland http://www.failteireland.ie/Word_files/research/Product-Summary/Cycling-Summary

Re transport on the corridor - yes the M18/17 will be built and there will be not one vote lost if the WRC does not happen. When the greenway goes all the way from Collooney down to Athenry and is being used everyday by locals in the town it runs through and by tourists - they will talk affectionately about the plans there used to be to have a rail line run along this route.

This is - what I firmly believe will happen. It will take time - but more or less this is the future of the WRC north of Athenry

rainbowdash

Westtip - you are comparing apples and oranges though. 300 a day in the summer might exceed Ennis-Athenry but in Decemebr I doubt there will be 10 people a day cycling the Newport path. Also I would expect Newport to be far more attractive to tourists than Ennis - Athenry.

You are right about cycleways though - they would be a phenomonal concept and should be rolled out using mainly manual labour (plenty of unemployed to do it at the right price now) and they must be off road completely and well thought out. The government should CPO the required land across the country at agricultural prices and get on with it.

Then link it to railheads at different points to enable people to do sections as they wish and bring their bikes on the trains.

rainbowdash

Forgot to add - in tough times people want cheap and free things, cycling, hillwalking, swimming in the sea, camping etc.

Golf, jetskis, foreign holidays, €100 tickets to rugby games all of that is going to be hit as people seek out cheaper things.

westtip

rainbowdash wrote: »

Westtip - you are comparing apples and oranges though. 300 a day in the summer might exceed Ennis-Athenry but in Decemebr I doubt there will be 10 people a day cycling the Newport path. Also I would expect Newport to be far more attractive to tourists than Ennis - Athenry.

.

Ah but you see West on Track have told us how tourists will clamour to use the WRC, so has this happened this summer - maybe it has. This whole route Ennis- Athenry - Tuam - Claremorris - Collooney could (and IMO should)form the backbone of a greenway from Donegal to Dingle. On the Newport path yesterday evening it was noticeable just how busy the facility was a mile or so either side of Newport and Mulranny, including what were obviously grandparents and young parents pushing buggies - these are local people using the facility and glad to have it - are they going to stop walking in the winter, I would hope not. I personally wouldn't drive an hour to Newport to use it in driving rain - but a brisk cold winter afternoon - most definitely - it will still have winter use believe me.

The picture below for me really show what should have happened from Ennis to Athenry - and what I firmly believe should happend from day one on the sections to Tuam and to Claremorris - if they ever come to fruition - claremorris - collooney is a total non runner in any event and should be greenway straight away (By the way how do I embed a pic in a post without it just being a link like below)

walking by the railway.jpg

foggy_lad

rainbowdash wrote: »

but in Decemebr I doubt there will be 10 people a day cycling the Newport path.

10 a day costing very little is better than 10 a day using a train set costing millions!

westtip wrote: »

Ah but you see West on Track have told us how tourists will clamour to use the WRC, so has this happened this summer - maybe it has.

The picture below for me really show what should have happened from Ennis to Athenry - and what I firmly believe should happend from day one on the sections to Tuam and to Claremorris - if they ever come to fruition - claremorris - collooney is a total non runner in any event and should be greenway straight away (By the way how do I embed a pic in a post without it just being a link like below)

walking by the railway.jpg

tourists see more from the bus and the train is just too dear for most tourists and takes too long out of their day! it is also not geared towards tourists but more for commuters.

westtip

foggy_lad wrote: »

it is also not geared towards tourists but more for commuters.

Unless they are called nigel and Tarquin have a little black notebook and have come over for the Steam special that could run up and down the branch line.

Judgement Day

westtip wrote: »

Unless they are called nigel and Tarquin have a little black notebook and have come over for the Steam special that could run up and down the branch line.