Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

wild handlin · 03-02-2011 11:53am

Going no-where: while I agree with what you say about some comodities (such as food, clothing etc) but for the likes of heavy materials which are suited to rail are ideal. Again I ask; if practically everywhere else in the EU can manage it, then why not Ireland?

Foggylad: Im nearly sure that most freight operations are undertaken by the customer, rather than IE. All IE do is provide a driver and shunter, the likes of cement/timber/shale/bitumen/oil etc was all loaded/unloaded by the customer, therefore reducing costs.

westtip · 03-02-2011 1:23pm

wild handlin wrote: »

Going no-where: while I agree with what you say about some comodities (such as food, clothing etc) but for the likes of heavy materials which are suited to rail are ideal. Again I ask; if practically everywhere else in the EU can manage it, then why not Ireland?

Foggylad: Im nearly sure that most freight operations are undertaken by the customer, rather than IE. All IE do is provide a driver and shunter, the likes of cement/timber/shale/bitumen/oil etc was all loaded/unloaded by the customer, therefore reducing costs.

WH but what this thread is about - the Western Rail Corridor - the arguments to put this line back into operation to carry heavy duty freight which I agree is better on rail; from say Ballina just doesn't justify the expense or even the logic - I know dublin is logg jammed and an alterntive route for freight would be nice to have, to work freight around the bottlenecks on the system in Dublin but don't ya think double tracking the mainline routes sorting out the dublin bottleneck etc woudl have actually have more impact on improving rail services for the west. The passenger argument for WRC simply does not wash, the passengeer demand does not actually exist despite the loud noises made by WOT, the numbers simply aren't there. Any heavy duty freight should be in completly off peak times so as not to affect the lines around Dublin.

My long held belief is that the arguments about the west needs it (WRC) and must have regional balance etc don't wash on this one. Improve what is left of the rail network and don't dilute resources with this particular project - it adds so little value to the network as an interconnected whole, spend the energy on the campaign to make the existing rail network first class so it can compete with the much improved roads.

westtip · 03-02-2011 1:29pm

Victor wrote: »

Admittedly there may be a track removal cost that wasn't there for Mulrany.

Victor I think I have seen greenways in which the track has not actualy been lifted - merely filled the tracks with stones, put down a layer of tar or fine stone and rolled. Not dissimilar to a golf buggy track. Not perfect but cost effective and quick. but not sure such a quick job woudl be acceptable in these days of "best practice" and H&S standards required - there is no doubt a specificiation for greenways set out somewhere.

corktina · 03-02-2011 1:51pm

it is rather bizarre to seriously be advocating 125 mph tilting trains for the WRC...would CIE not be better off campaigning for their use on the Main Lines where they may be of some benefit?

Its worth pointing out that they are designed to tilt on high speed CURVES not low speed BENDS, but then again, im probably wasting my typing finger bothering.

Think of the BIG PICTURE not the archive movie of yesteryears failed railway line.

dermo88 · 03-02-2011 2:27pm

I notice one poster states his location as being 61m asl. Judging by the views expressed by them on railfreight, could we obtain clarification as to whether the "m" refers to metres, or miles.

Because if it is the latter, I would suggest that they get a return ticket to earth from the International Space Station and on their return obtain an Intermediate Certificate Geography textbook. Look for the section dealing with land use and planning. Learn what the "Core" is, and what the "Periphery" is. Learn about land usage, transportation, and learn that Ireland is on the edge of Europe, and its a ISLAND. You know.....one of those things surrounded by water.

Railways are expensive when they are not used correctly, or appropriately. This is why Rosslare to Waterford closed this year, and why Limerick to Ballybrophy will follow suit.

When they have done that, can they please come back and elaborate on what they have found in less than 300 words.

If they give the incorrect explanation, based on trainspotter fantasies and the fantasies of abortion bucket reject county councillors and second rate politicians, the rest of us will just laugh, and say.

"Election is coming"

Thank you.

foggy_lad · 03-02-2011 2:34pm

You just dont get it at all,

wild handlin wrote: »

Foggylad: Im nearly sure that most freight operations are undertaken by the customer, rather than IE. All IE do is provide a driver and shunter, the likes of cement/timber/shale/bitumen/oil etc was all loaded/unloaded by the customer, therefore reducing costs.

Reducing costs for IE or CIE but the overall cost is still PROHIBITIVE for the "customer" who has to pay for transfer to and from lorries several times. This is where the major cost is regardless of whether you are transporting logs, cement, shale, sugarbeet or other mixed container freight.

(Goods leave the factory by road freight after being man-handled onto lorries and are brought to rail depot where they are man-handled again onto a train where they go on their very slow journey to the depot nearest their destination, the bogey the goods are on may need more handling to change to a different train etc and on reaching the last depot the goods are once again man-handled onto road vehicles yet again for delivery to their destination.)

What most "customers" have found is there are massive savings to be made by cutting out the railway middleman.

As for the western rail services, well it has been proven that road travel for most passengers is very much faster and cheaper and for a lot of people a lot more comfortable, Ireland is just not big enough for branch lines and freight services on our railways and such services will see railways in ireland finished forever if people keep insisting they are viable.

R.I.P. WRC and Fastrack. they are both dead in Ireland so please be kind and bury them

Judgement Day · 03-02-2011 3:09pm

foggy_lad - I'm in a hurry to go and collect my kids from school so I'm posting this You Tube video to keep things on the boil until later when I will respond properly. Turn up the volume - there's nothing like the roar of a heavy freight loco.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwY27UHeq4k

foggy_lad · 03-02-2011 3:20pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

foggy_lad - I'm in a hurry to go and collect my kids from school so I'm posting this You Tube video to keep things on the boil until later when I will respond properly. Turn up the volume - there's nothing like the roar of a heavy freight loco.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwY27UHeq4k

So the answer then is cripple the country and bugger any possible chance of Irish Rail becoming profitable just so some Auld enthusiasts can get off listening to freight trains thundering along or so the same types can have their own little branch line way out west?

Transportuser09 · 03-02-2011 4:05pm

Would it be possible to fit both a greenway and 5'3 gauge rail line on the same alignment (built for single track?). It is a great idea otherwise.

the western fail corridor is never going to pay its way or become anything more than a greenway when lines like it and waterford-limerick jctn are shut down due to losses and low passenger numbers as well as shortages in rolling stock and the cost of gatekeepers and cost of running crews around the country in taxis.

What railway line is profitable in this country? Theres always going to be costly overheads. What baffles me is that some of the people who were against IÉ closing the Rosslare to Waterford line (which served a few small villages - I still didnt agree with it closing but just to put it into perspective) are against a line linking two cities, and potentially the commuter town of Tuam (I agree though Coolooney-Claremorris would be a ridiculous waste of money, Im not convinced about Claremorris-Tuam either).

Something should be done about reducing journey times on Galway-Limerick, but the fact that it is slower than road does not alone make it a failure, if it did we would be looking at closing the Dublin to Galway and Dublin to Belfast lines!

foggy_lad wrote: »

So the answer then is cripple the country and bugger any possible chance of Irish Rail becoming profitable just so some Auld enthusiasts can get off listening to freight trains thundering along or so the same types can have their own little branch line way out west?

But freight flows like the IWT, DFDS, Timber are profitable for IÉ, so it would actually be stupid for them to ignore them, flows like these help push the company towards being profitable. They certainly dont cripple its chances. The unprofitable freight flows were disposed of in the last decade.

dowlingm · 03-02-2011 4:09pm

While Ireland has only two directly connected ports I can't see railfreight getting much farther. If Bremore Port was done and rail connected on day one (and the Dublin Port vested interests told to go and sh!te with their expansion demands) then you could get the Tara Mines traffic out of the way of DART etc.

In the alternative, if the Poolbeg incinerator is knocked on the head Tara trains could haul hundreds of tonnes of baled refuse a day from North Wall to the incinerator near Slane. There must surely be efficiency in loading a train that is heading back empty anyway.

To add a western angle - the failure to relocate Limerick Port to Foynes has hindered the possibility of rail freight being sent out that way, such as ore from Silvermines.

DWCommuter · 03-02-2011 4:46pm

Transportuser09 wrote: »

What baffles me is that some of the people who were against IÉ closing the Rosslare to Waterford line (which served a few small villages - I still didnt agree with it closing but just to put it into perspective) are against a line linking two cities, and potentially the commuter town of Tuam (I agree though Coolooney-Claremorris would be a ridiculous waste of money, Im not convinced about Claremorris-Tuam either).

Let me put some perspective on that for you. Rosslare - Waterford was an operational line. The other lines aren't. Fix what you have before you build more broken stuff.

foggy_lad · 03-02-2011 10:07pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

Let me put some perspective on that for you. Rosslare - Waterford was an operational line. The other lines aren't. Fix what you have before you build more broken stuff.

Operational in what sense? It went to a bare platform in the middle of nowhere and there was no possibility of freight being brought by rail due to the handling costs involved, The tiny villages along the line were once much larger with many more passengers back in the days of the Railway Children but not in the 21st ventury, To provide proper services on this line would have probably doubled costs for crews and gatekeepers etc but would only very slightly improve numbers!

Limerick to Galway is operational also but is in the same boat as the Rosslare-Waterford line, more and more people are going to switch to bus and car now that the belts are being tightened especially when going out at weekends with the kids or shopping etc

WRC is too slow too dear and too much hassle due to timetable constraints

westtip · 03-02-2011 11:43pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

WRC is too slow too dear and too much hassle due to timetable constraints

And these are due to the fact there simply aren't enough people living in the towns it services to warrant anything more than it gets now. Before you do any business venture you should have a business plan looking at some fundamentals - supply - demand - market.

Supply and demand - the demand for the WRC does not exist - cos there ain't enough people (the market is made up of people). It's quite simple, but no one in authority seems to have the balls to say it. This whole WRC thins it totally about appeasing a small pressure group no more no less.

DWCommuter · 04-02-2011 12:53am

foggy_lad wrote: »

Operational in what sense? It went to a bare platform in the middle of nowhere and there was no possibility of freight being brought by rail due to the handling costs involved, The tiny villages along the line were once much larger with many more passengers back in the days of the Railway Children but not in the 21st ventury, To provide proper services on this line would have probably doubled costs for crews and gatekeepers etc but would only very slightly improve numbers!

Limerick to Galway is operational also but is in the same boat as the Rosslare-Waterford line, more and more people are going to switch to bus and car now that the belts are being tightened especially when going out at weekends with the kids or shopping etc

WRC is too slow too dear and too much hassle due to timetable constraints

Foggy, stay off the cocaine man:D. I was merely painting a very simple picture for Transportuser09 in relation to remarks made about those who supported the Waterford - Rosslare lines retention and were against further reopenings of the WRC. Its all very simple really. Read the facts. Critical analysis of the Waterford - Rosslare in this thread is counter productive. And your particular analysis of it is out of touch. Let me restate my opinion.

WATERFORD - ROSSLARE WAS OPEN!

ATHENRY - CLAREMORRIS IS CLOSED!

FIX WHAT YOU HAVE FIRST BEFORE REOPENING A SIMILAR PROBLEM. (as per my response to Transportuser09's post)

Westtip: offer up a thanks to this guy again and I will personally start a crusade against the Claremorris - Collooney Greenway.:D

Foggy - sometimes you make sense, but in general you come out with crap that just exaggerates the thinking of myself and others as if you just want to wildly go one better. Its blatant misrepresentation.

CIE · 04-02-2011 2:06am

DWCommuter wrote: »

WATERFORD - ROSSLARE WAS OPEN!

ATHENRY - CLAREMORRIS IS CLOSED!

FIX WHAT YOU HAVE FIRST BEFORE REOPENING A SIMILAR PROBLEM

Could you, without shouting this time, explain what exactly you perceive as a "problem"? never mind the relative relevance as to what line was closed and open? (Sounds like an argument for re-closing Cork-Midleton, in part.)

DWCommuter · 04-02-2011 2:18am

CIE wrote: »

Could you, without shouting this time, explain what exactly you perceive as a "problem"? never mind the relative relevance as to what line was closed and open? (Sounds like an argument for re-closing Cork-Midleton, in part.)

Read the last few posts carefully. It doesn't need translating or further explanation.

CIE · 04-02-2011 2:43am

DWCommuter wrote: »

Read the last few posts carefully. It doesn't need translating or further explanation.

Yes it does, with all due respect. What exactly is the "problem" being referred to?

foggy_lad · 04-02-2011 3:16am

"Foggy, stay off the cocaine man:D. I was merely painting a very simple picture for Transportuser09 in relation to remarks made about those who supported the Waterford -Rosslare lines retention and were against further reopenings of the WRC. Its all very simple really. Read the facts. Critical analysis of the Waterford -Rosslare in this thread is counter productive. And your particular analysis of it is out of touch. Let me restate my opinion. WATERFORD -ROSSLARE WAS OPEN! ATHENRY -CLAREMORRIS IS CLOSED! FIX WHAT YOU HAVE FIRST BEFORE REOPENING A SIMILAR PROBLEM. (as per my response to Transportuser09's post) Westtip: offer up a thanks to this guy again and I will personally start a crusade against the Claremorris -Collooney Greenway.:D Foggy -sometimes you make sense, but in general you come out with crap that just exaggerates the thinking of myself and others as if you just want to wildly go one better. Its blatant misrepresentation."

Waterford-Rosslare was closed for years but IR still ran a couple of trains a day just to give staff in Waterford and the gatekeepers on the line something to do.

The line has not had enough passengers to keep it operational in well over 20 years.

As for cocaine, I never have and never will use/abuse the drug.

And to the discussion of the whole Waterford-rosslare situation i did not bring that into the thread just responded and always managed to do my best to also include comparisons etc with the wrc just to keep things on thread.

Fix what you have first. Well the Waterford-rosslare line has been well and truly fixed and with any luck and good sense the ballybrophy branch line and the western rail corridor in its entirety will be next.

You may apologise at any time for calling me a junkie. And afaik west tipp can thank people for as many posts as they chose and are not required to take instruction from you on whose posts they are allowed thank

CIE · 04-02-2011 3:30am

foggy_lad wrote: »

Fix what you have first. Well the Waterford-rosslare line has been well and truly fixed and with any luck and good sense the ballybrophy branch line and the western rail corridor in its entirety will be next

So evisceration of transport infrastructure is what "luck and good sense" consists of?

DWCommuter · 04-02-2011 9:42am

foggy_lad wrote: »

"Foggy, stay off the cocaine man:D. I was merely painting a very simple picture for Transportuser09 in relation to remarks made about those who supported the Waterford -Rosslare lines retention and were against further reopenings of the WRC. Its all very simple really. Read the facts. Critical analysis of the Waterford -Rosslare in this thread is counter productive. And your particular analysis of it is out of touch. Let me restate my opinion. WATERFORD -ROSSLARE WAS OPEN! ATHENRY -CLAREMORRIS IS CLOSED! FIX WHAT YOU HAVE FIRST BEFORE REOPENING A SIMILAR PROBLEM. (as per my response to Transportuser09's post) Westtip: offer up a thanks to this guy again and I will personally start a crusade against the Claremorris -Collooney Greenway.:D Foggy -sometimes you make sense, but in general you come out with crap that just exaggerates the thinking of myself and others as if you just want to wildly go one better. Its blatant misrepresentation."

Waterford-Rosslare was closed for years but IR still ran a couple of trains a day just to give staff in Waterford and the gatekeepers on the line something to do.

The line has not had enough passengers to keep it operational in well over 20 years.

As for cocaine, I never have and never will use/abuse the drug.

And to the discussion of the whole Waterford-rosslare situation i did not bring that into the thread just responded and always managed to do my best to also include comparisons etc with the wrc just to keep things on thread.

Fix what you have first. Well the Waterford-rosslare line has been well and truly fixed and with any luck and good sense the ballybrophy branch line and the western rail corridor in its entirety will be next.

You may apologise at any time for calling me a junkie. And afaik west tipp can thank people for as many posts as they chose and are not required to take instruction from you on whose posts they are allowed thank

Relax Foggy. I was joking. Didn't you see the smiley? Here's another one.:D

westtip · 04-02-2011 10:46am

DWCommuter wrote: »

Relax Foggy. I was joking. Didn't you see the smiley? Here's another one.:D

I had several glasses of red - I am not even sure which post I thanked I am also now getting totally confused on who stands where on certain issues.

I think DW we are in agreement.

Of course I can see the merit of high speed trains from Claremorris to Collooney. Always have in fact a high speed link from Waterford to Kiltimagh has always been my alternative agenda:D

Propellerhead · 04-02-2011 11:39am

So, thread summary so far:

Trains are bad, mm'kay?

Kill trains.

Except maybe for the Eurostar. That's cool.

Throw rocks at anyone who says otherwise.

Continue circle until only four posters left.

Result.

westtip · 04-02-2011 12:38pm

Propellerhead wrote: »

So, thread summary so far:

Trains are bad, mm'kay?

Kill trains.

Except maybe for the Eurostar. That's cool.

Throw rocks at anyone who says otherwise.

Continue circle until only four posters left.

Result.

I don't think the anti-WRC brigade on this thread say trains are bad, nor are rocks being thrown - I think the likes of DW corktina and others have just been constant in their arguments that the WRC is a distraction and that improvements on the overall network are far more important than opening a branch line, the thread seems to re-awaken itself from time to time when articles like Frank McDonalds appear, his article has it seems stirred a few debates again - I have no doubt the thread will now hibernate for a while.

Transportuser09 · 04-02-2011 3:38pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Waterford-Rosslare was closed for years but IR still ran a couple of trains a day just to give staff in Waterford and the gatekeepers on the line something to do.

No, was not closed until last September. The reason it remained open from the 1970s on was that the sugar beet industry made the line remotely profitable to run. That went five years ago and since then the line was less economical to run (yes that may have been IÉ's fault but that's another story). They didn't keep it open to simply give staff "something to do". I do not know where you got that idea from.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Fix what you have first. Well the Waterford-rosslare line has been well and truly fixed and with any luck and good sense the ballybrophy branch line and the western rail corridor in its entirety will be next.

I'm sure even those opposed to its reopening would not be in favour on the WRC closing so soon, you're actually advocating that it's sensible to close something after so much money was recently spent rebuilding it?

westtip · 04-02-2011 3:45pm

I recently emailed Barry Kenny asking for figures on the WRC to be broken down Ennis - Limerick Journies, Athenry - Galway journies and total journies Ennis -Athenry;

Total passenger journeys between Limerick and Galway for 2010 were 110,000. This in line with predictions
We do not have any broken down figures available

Kind regards

Sent to me by his PA.

I have sent this email

I find it hard to believe – in fact I don’t believe. That you don’t have more detailed figures. The re-opening of the line from Ennis to Athenry was an important capital project funded by the taxpayer, I simply cannot believe that Irish Rail have not been keeping a close monitor on the uptake of usage on this line. It beggars belief which is why I don’t believe it. I will make a formal request to the new minister of transport when he/she is in place to get the detailed breakdown, How does your company do its planning process if you don’t hold the most basic information on your current services.

I will ask once again – Can I please have figures which show the usage of this section of line – Ennis to Athenry for 2010, the total journies on Ennis – Limerick and the total journies (excluding Dublin in bound and outbound) for the line from Athenry to Galway.

If you don’t have these details to hand – perhaps you could ask within the organisation how will you be monitoring usage of the new section of line and who would this data be reported to the Minister of Transport of Board of IE if they were to ask for it.

steamengine · 04-02-2011 4:20pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

So the answer then is cripple the country and bugger any possible chance of Irish Rail becoming profitable just so some Auld enthusiasts can get off listening to freight trains thundering along or so the same types can have their own little branch line way out west?

I am going to stick my neck out, expecting it will be most likely chopped off, knowing full well the ire that enthusiasts attract on this forum. Rail tour specials run on a regular basis during the summer months could well feed into the viability of this line now that it is up and running. Watching the 2nd last programme in the series of 'Great British Railway Journeys' last night showed how 'West Coast Railways' a rail charter company run both diesel and steam specials on the 'West Highland Route' in Scotland. From what I understand, various preservation groups provide them with the locomotives and carriages. No doubt the commitment by these volunteers help considerably to keep costs down. So while others will give a hundred reasons why this line won't work, at least the enthusiasts will give one or two on how to make it work based on current practice elsewhere.

Only a suggestion, but before I run for cover, take a peek at one of these specials in action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wAwoK5kju8

corktina · 04-02-2011 4:27pm

oh yes the West Highland Line , thats the same.

Regular railtours over the line are a good idea BUT take a look at the VERY long list of failed Railtour Companies in the UK. Only very few are consistantly sucessful...the West Coast Steam operation (mostly in Scotland) and the VSOE being two examples.
Id say the most you can hope for is a RPSI train once a year (assuming they wont want to go other places with their annual shindig (which Ive been on and is excellent)

westtip · 04-02-2011 4:43pm

steamengine wrote: »

I am going to stick my neck out, expecting it will be most likely chopped off, knowing full well the ire that enthusiasts attract on this forum. Rail tour specials run on a regular basis during the summer months could well feed into the viability of this line now that it is up and running. Watching the 2nd last programme in the series of 'Great British Railway Journeys' last night showed how 'West Coast Railways' a rail charter company run both diesel and steam specials on the 'West Highland Route' in Scotland. From what I understand, various preservation groups provide them with the locomotives and carriages. No doubt the commitment by these volunteers help considerably to keep costs down. So while others will give a hundred reasons why this line won't work, at least the enthusiasts will give one or two on how to make it work based on current practice elsewhere.

Only a suggestion, but before I run for cover, take a peek at one of these specials in action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wAwoK5kju8

It is an interesting concept I saw the programme too, I think Michael Portillo is great the way he has transformed himself from politician to broadcaster anyway I am sure the IMF will be delighted with the idea of spending money on a capital project for transport in order that we can maximise use of steam train excursiions to justify it. If the line were open and in use yes use it for this purpose - but re-open a line with this in mind, now you may as well join me and say turn it into a greenway. as for the electorate what on earth do you think people would say - the west of ireland would lose all credibility. there are hospital wards closing, leaking roofs in schools, potholes in roads oh and I forgot to mention we are so much in hock we have to ask permission of the IMF to spend a cent. so lets open a railway that will struggle to justify itself but don't worry we will run a few steam trains down it once or twice a week in teh summer. yes indeed Steamie you have stuck your neck out.!

steamengine · 04-02-2011 5:18pm

westtip wrote: »

It is an interesting concept I saw the programme too, I think Michael Portillo is great the way he has transformed himself from politician to broadcaster anyway I am sure the IMF will be delighted with the idea of spending money on a capital project for transport in order that we can maximise use of steam train excursiions to justify it. If the line were open and in use yes use it for this purpose - but re-open a line with this in mind, now you may as well join me and say turn it into a greenway. as for the electorate what on earth do you think people would say - the west of ireland would lose all credibility. there are hospital wards closing, leaking roofs in schools, potholes in roads oh and I forgot to mention we are so much in hock we have to ask permission of the IMF to spend a cent. so lets open a railway that will struggle to justify itself but don't worry we will run a few steam trains down it once or twice a week in teh summer. yes indeed Steamie you have stuck your neck out.!

I fear you have missed my point completely. I was referring to the already open portion of the WRC ie Limerick-Galway. Not talking about a further capital project at all. Merely pointing out that 'specials' either steam or diesel hauled are economically viable, due to high patronage and could serve to bring tourism to the surrounding areas, thereby making the route less un-viable than it is at present. As you may know 'tourism' has been earmarked as one of the planks of economic recovery which leads me now to ask you if you think that the existing portion of the WRC could have a role in that regard ???

corktina · 04-02-2011 5:28pm

what this country is lacking is a really good preserved line for all us chuffer nutters.

However its also missing Volunteers to build it/run it, stock to operate it and tourists to pay for it, not to mention the expertise to maintain the locos.

Id love to see it happen (the Kanturk and Newmarket Line would be just right ;-)

Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

Comments