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Depression

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Comments

  • #362
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Maybe or we're back to the pill for every ill or the ill for every pill? And yes some people are just self indulgent immature arseholes who make others lives a misery. That doesnt always require a clinical diagnosis.

    Yep all good in theory, but how come that in the west with more access to shrinks and medication and therapies the suicide rates are going up not down. Seems at complete odds with other conditions. I mean if you fire a load of obstetricians and midwives into an area then neo and post natal deaths go down, yet adding more shrinks the rate of illness goes up? eh wut? Makes zero sense.

    i'm not arguing, Wibbs, I'm just a little confused by something you said. Are you saying some people have been diagnosed with bipolar who aren't or are you conflating bipolar with being whingey and self-indulgent? Your phrasing made your meaning unclear and the phrase "chemically, bi-polar types" is a bit heavy handed without qualifacation. I'm in full agreement with you re the prescribing of meds. Have been told by a GP that I "needed" them after a 10 minute consultation. i'm not saying they are always a bad thing, but they aren't always the best or only option.


  • #363
    cleremy jarkson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 542 ✭✭✭cleremy jarkson


    Confab wrote: »
    Poor psychiatry? Misdiagnosis? Lack of people admitting a problem because people like you tell them that 'Ah sure it's all in your head boi. Toughen up!'

    Surely people were more likely to have said that in 1950 than today, at a time when suicide rates were one quarter of what they are nowadays? And I would guess that the standard of psychiatry was poorer in 1950 than it is nowadays. Antidepressants didn't appear until the late 50's either as far as I'm aware (and probably not in Ireland until a good bit later). Don't mean to drag this thread off topic, just curious about why way fewer people killed themselves years ago.


  • #364
    kowloon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 13,948 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    With regards to genetic causes of depression, surely if you can have genetic defects in every organ there is likely to be some types of brain defect that can alter brain chemistry?

    Not sure what can be done about it being a taboo topic.
    I take an anti-convulsant mixed with an anti-depressant for diabetic neuropathy.
    When I got my first batch of the anti-depressants I mixed them into the same container as the anti-convulsants.
    I was worried someone would read the container, look it up and start making judgements. I couldn't care less if they thought I had epilepsy.
    I'd like to think I wouldn't judge someone for having depression, but at the same time, I wouldn't trust others to do the same.


  • #365
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,920 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    cleremy jarkson wrote: »
    Surely people were more likely to have said that in 1950 than today, at a time when suicide rates were one quarter of what they are nowadays? And I would guess that the standard of psychiatry was poorer in 1950 than it is nowadays. Antidepressants didn't appear until the late 50's either as far as I'm aware (and probably not in Ireland until a good bit later). Don't mean to drag this thread off topic, just curious about why way fewer people killed themselves years ago.

    You should also realise that 50 year ago, the catholic church had a huge grip on the country and it was taught that if you committed suicide, your soul went to Hell.


  • #366
    scientific1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭scientific1982


    Wibbs wrote: »
    OK yea but that's whataboutry until you can show me evidence for it.

    No its not. Depressive behaviour has been observed in many animals.
    Maybe not. We have unique brains for a start, so it could be unique to us.

    If our brains were so unique in terms of depression, dont you think antidepressants would have a much lower success rate. In fact it would be very hard to treat anyone with a mental illness.
    Many things are. Show me another animal with an opposable thumb(If some cnut says a crab, you're going on my list:D).

    Struggling to see why you're bringing up opposable thumbs but if you want an example of another animal with them, how about all the great apes.

    Yes and no. We have created a supernatural world by virtue of our brains and culture and technology. It may have sprung from the natural but that doesnt make it so. You're typing this on the remants of dead sea creatures, sand and rock hewn from the "natural" ground, is your PC "natural"?

    Of course its silly to argue that anything human is unnatural. All our culture and technology is a product of the human mind, which is part of the natural world. Just because it seems unique to the rest of nature doesnt mean its not part of nature. Some bacteria thrive on extreme temperatures, thats fairly unique but it doesnt mean they're "supernatural".
    So? What's your point? How does that relate to the clearly recent jump in people being flagged as depressed?

    Because you went of on a tangent about our ancestors who were risk takers and that we wouldnt be here if we stayed in the cave thinking all day. Well we wouldnt have come this far as a species without some people staying in the acve thinking.
    Not ancestors, current populations who live that lifestyle have far less depression. http://www.examiner.com/alternative-medicine-in-buffalo/the-hunter-gatherer-approach-to-preventing-and-treating-depression http://www.bottomlinesecrets.com/article.html?article_id=100000044 Why? better diets, more exercise, more social contact, more spiritual, less insular.

    Shifting goalposts much. I asked where is the data to suggest that our ancestors suffered from depression less than us and how was this data quantified.


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  • #367
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,329 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Confab wrote: »
    Wow. Generalise much?
    Why? How am I generalising? Fact is cutting which appears to be the done thing with every third depressed type(esp young women) didnt manifest nearly so much 30 years ago. Hey you can throw in anorexia nervosa with that. A lot more of that today than 30/40 years ago. Our DNA hasnt changed so what has? That's all I'm asking.
    That said, I believe don't believe in genetic depression.
    Oh this is the thing I defo do. Having seen two friends up close with bipolar. They were manic and actually fcuking depressed. Comparing them to many so called depressed types out there is like comparing full blown diabetics with those poor souls who cos their diet is shíte and they have a fat arse feel a bit tired at 3 pm cos they havent had their afternoon snack. Boo effin hoo. :rolleyes:
    People are responsible for their own thoughts, and while it seems difficult to change those thoughts at the start, it can and has been done countless times.
    I;d say that's the case for many of the newly depressed alright.
    I'm sure there are a smaller group of people who use depression as an excuse for everything, but mark my words, depression is real,
    Of course its real. Where did I say it wasn't? p

    All you're doing is perpetuating a sordid stereotype and marking yourself out as the very person who needs to be educated that depression isn't just looking for attention.
    Eh no. Nice try there ted, but no.
    Yes, people do fake depression. Some will fake their own death if it means sympathy.
    In the latter case TBH I say Darwin at work.
    Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there. Ever visited a public mental hospital? None of the patients are faking in those hellholes, believe me.
    Ohhh nice emotive approach. Ultimately empty rhetorical bollocks though. The vast majority of those who say they're depressed have never been anywhere near a mental hospital, nor will ever be.
    Cop on to yourself.
    Why should I? Because I neither swallow the "its all in their head, you know" shíte, nor the "oh those emotions you have, they're not natural, heres a pill/therapy/quack that will justify you" ****e. Come back to me with something approaching a more cogent and reductive and provable argument and I may well cop on to myself. Otherwise try harder kiddo.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #368
    Novella
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,713 ✭✭✭✭Novella


    Confab wrote: »
    Poor psychiatry? Misdiagnosis? Lack of people admitting a problem because people like you tell them that 'Ah sure it's all in your head boi. Toughen up!'

    Poor psychiatry is definitely up there on the list. I suppose with the huge demand, the long waiting lists, unless you are an obvious danger to yourself, it's quite likely that you will be dismissed. It's hard to know though, isn't it? Some people just find it really hard to open up, and therefore can appear mentally stable to a psychiatrist when in reality, they are not at all. That's what's so tricky about mental illness in general - how difficult it is to diagnose.

    There most certainly is not a lack of people admitting a problem though, far from it. Perhaps some people do fear that they'll be told to 'toughen up', but I'd imagine a bigger fear would be that someone would say, "Yes, you are mentally unwell" due to the stigma attached to it and the fact that hearing you are ill, well, it's just scary.

    I do think you are taking Wibbs up completely wrong. He is probably one of the last people who'd say to someone, "It's all in your head". I have never seen him be anything but compassionate.


  • #369
    cleremy jarkson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 542 ✭✭✭cleremy jarkson


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You should also realise that 50 year ago, the catholic church had a huge grip on the country and it was taught that if you committed suicide, your soul went to Hell.

    That came to mind alright, just don't think it could make up for the full increase.


  • #370
    t0mm13b
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 618 ✭✭✭t0mm13b


    Confab wrote: »
    Poor psychiatry? Misdiagnosis? Lack of people admitting a problem because people like you tell them that 'Ah sure it's all in your head boi. Toughen up!'

    I really do not know if these are the causes to inaccessible and poor mental health services - GP's are on a tight time frame (I am not defending the medical profession either), are not empathic, nor compassionate (well not all of them) and it would be easier said then done for them to earn their hourly rate for consultation "yup yup, will write out a prescription", cue the printer whirring and spits out a page for prescription for anti-depressents, casting glances at their watches or clocks.... "come back in a month and I'll see you again", dismissed within 10 minutes because their excuse is "I've a patient coming in at a scheduled time".... this is the hairy thing here.....

    All angles needs to be considered, how can this be improvised.... if the GP is not good, it is your basic entitlement to go to another GP if you are not getting the service nor expectations of getting the appropriate help...there's red-tape and bureacy (sp?) involved in having to apply to get the files switched/transferred to another GP with delays....


  • #371
    Mr Benevolent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,433 ✭✭✭✭Mr Benevolent


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I neither swallow the "its all in their head, you know" shíte, nor the "oh those emotions you have, they're not natural, heres a pill/therapy/quack that will justify you" ****e.

    Ironically, neither do I. I think we're actually arguing the same thing but from different points of view.


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  • #372
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,920 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Wibbs, what exactly is your main issue here?


  • #373
    t0mm13b
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 618 ✭✭✭t0mm13b


    OT: What's that about on another thread

    Can someone make this the official thread or there's bound to be confusion....as the other thread is titled "Have you ever had depression?" under Clearasil & Hormones :confused:


  • #374
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    Someone with depression can be as depressed as someone with bi-polar during a depressive phase, believe me.


  • #375
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,920 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    t0mm13b wrote: »
    OT: What's that about on another thread

    Can someone make this the official thread or there's bound to be confusion....as the other thread is titled "Have you ever had depression?" under Clearasil & Hormones :confused:

    There doesn't have to be an official thread whatsoever. I created this one not knowing there was one there. Both are official - this is the AH one, that is the C&H one, which thoroughly deserves where it is as it's an important issue with youth.


  • #376
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,329 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You should also realise that 50 year ago, the catholic church had a huge grip on the country and it was taught that if you committed suicide, your soul went to Hell.
    If that reduced the rate of people topping themselves more effectively than other methods, then what was the harm?
    scientific1982 wrote: »
    No its not. Depressive behaviour has been observed in many animals.
    Link me one concrete study that has shown this in non captive animals. End of.

    If our brains were so unique in terms of depression, dont you think antidepressants would have a much lower success rate.
    They do. Placebo is as effective in low to medium levels of depression as SSRIs.
    In fact it would be very hard to treat anyone with a mental illness.
    It still is. Ask anyone with full blown clinical bipolar or schizophrenia.

    Struggling to see why you're bringing up opposable thumbs but if you want an example of another animal with them, how about all the great apes.
    Eh no. Jesus, a knowledge of basic anatomy would help.



    Of course its silly to argue that anything human is unnatural. All our culture and technology is a product of the human mind, which is part of the natural world. Just because it seems unique to the rest of nature doesnt mean its not part of nature. Some bacteria thrive on extreme temperatures, thats fairly unique but it doesnt mean they're "supernatural".
    Right. I think you need to go away and read up basic stuff about definitions and all that stuff. A grounding in basic philosophic and logical thought would help too. extremophiles and the PC are so far apart on soooo many levels it would be a labour to have to join the dots on the point.

    Because you went of on a tangent about our ancestors who were risk takers and that we wouldnt be here if we stayed in the cave thinking all day. Well we wouldnt have come this far as a species without some people staying in the acve thinking.
    Too simplistic in thinking. Plus like all subjective types, immediately assumed one point to agree with the internal, rather than the point being argued.


    Shifting goalposts much. I asked where is the data to suggest that our ancestors suffered from depression less than us and how was this data quantified.
    Read those links. Google more on the subject. Compare and contrast the diffs. Get back to me. In the medium term, google "shifting goalposts".

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #377
    kowloon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 13,948 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You should also realise that 50 year ago, the catholic church had a huge grip on the country and it was taught that if you committed suicide, your soul went to Hell.

    Is there still an issue with burying someone who has committed suicide in consecrated ground?


  • #378
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Dont shoot me, whats placebo?

    That where they give you tic tacs and say it will help?


  • #379
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,920 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Dont shoot me, whats placebo?

    That where they give you tic tacs and say it will help?

    Basically yes. The point is that you think they're something else, so you believe you're getting the benefits of that something else, when in reality they could be just sugar capsules.


  • #380
    Larianne
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,954 ✭✭✭✭Larianne


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Dont shoot me, whats placebo?

    That where they give you tic tacs and say it will help?

    Yes, or where even seeing a doctor or other health professional before any type of treatment has made people feel better.


  • #381
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy



    Eh no. Jesus, a knowledge of basic anatomy would help.

    Wibbs I knew you would go mad over that one :d


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  • #382
    mikemac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,968 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    kowloon wrote: »
    Is there still an issue with burying someone who has committed suicide in consecrated ground?

    A good question and one I asked in the Christianity forum. Well indirectly as I was asking about infants who died before they are baptized.

    This was changed decades ago, no issue at all for such a person to be buried on consecrated land these days


  • #383
    Mr Benevolent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,433 ✭✭✭✭Mr Benevolent


    Wibbs, can you summarise your argument in this thread? You opinion seems a bit disjointed and is taking away from the initial reason for starting the thread. You're the single dissenting voice. Just explain your point in a sentence or two and be done with it, no offence.
    A grounding in basic philosophic and logical thought would help too.

    That's just insulting. Very few people have trained in philosophy, fewer still in logical thought or read de Bono avidly. If you have expertise in this field, take it to the Debating or Philosophy forums. Otherwise, summarise your point and stop derailing the thread.

    Actually, I'd love to see someone attempt to cure depression with philosophy, maybe they could read the patient Great Dialogues of Plato and bore him into a coma. I have a friend with a PhD in philosphy, I must show him this thread. He'll cack himself laughing.


  • #384
    t0mm13b
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 618 ✭✭✭t0mm13b


    Deleted User wrote: »
    There doesn't have to be an official thread whatsoever. I created this one not knowing there was one there. Both are official - this is the AH one, that is the C&H one, which thoroughly deserves where it is as it's an important issue with youth.

    Ahhhh... Thanks for the heads up.... didn't realize that the other thread targets youth.... :)


  • #385
    cleremy jarkson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 542 ✭✭✭cleremy jarkson


    Confab wrote: »
    Wibbs, can you summarise your argument in this thread? You opinion seems a bit disjointed and is taking away from the initial reason for starting the thread. You're the single dissenting voice. Just explain your point in a sentence or two and be done with it.

    No offence.

    / gets popcorn


  • #386
    Charlie.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 78 ✭✭Charlie.


    Wibbs I usually agree with a lot of what you say but not on some of your points there I'm afraid.

    I don't mean to belittle anyones point of view especially those who have lived with family members/close friends who have suffered from depression, but unless you have suffered from it yourself, I really don't think you are in any position to comment on how those who are diagnosed as being depressed or even those who just describe themselves as being depressed really feel.

    Hell I can't even bring myself back about 8 years ago when I was at absolute rock bottom and even begin to understand how I was feeling or why I was feeling the way I did. I just know I physically could not bring myself out of bed to get dressed or eat..never mind go to school, I didn't want to speak to anyone, didn't want to see anyone, I just didn't want to be alive any longer and I was so angry that I was put on this Earth. I just remember lying in bed crying, apologising to my mother for what I was putting her through. Everything else is just a blur....I don't know how long I was in that state for but eventually my mother made me go to my doctor.

    When I was told that I was 'depressed' I burst into tears....not because I was offended, embarrased or scared but by having a label on what I was feeling made me feel 'normal'. I had heard of depression before, I then realised that other people have felt like I feel and get through it so maybe I can too.

    I went off on a bit of a tangent there sorry...the point I was trying to make is that I now find it hard to understand and put myself back into the shoes of my depressed 16 year old self, therefore I don't think anyone who has never suffered depression would realistically be able to understand what depression is or isn't.

    Up untill this year Wibbs, I was of the strong belief that my own father was as you described a
    Wibbs wrote: »
    self indulgent immature arseholes who make others lives a misery.
    It's only after I was diagnosed with GAD and had CBT that I can recognise so much of my tendancies to think negatively, be pessimistic, overthink and overanylis things, an inability/unwillingness to let go of the past, to be irratabile, moody, to want to be alone for maybe days on end that I can see lots of those things in him too that make him behave in a way which I previously perceived as a need to grow the f up. I truly believe he suffers from anxiety/depression also and even as a sufferer myself for years, it's only now that I am in any way empathetic to what he is going through. So I can understand in a way why someone who has never experienced would have the view you do, still I don't think expressing it in the way you did on a thread such as this which I feel may encourage people to open up is helpful. I only wish my father would.


  • #387
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,329 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Confab wrote: »
    Wibbs, can you summarise your argument in this thread? You opinion seems a bit disjointed and is taking away from the initial reason for starting the thread. You're the single dissenting voice. Just explain your point in a sentence or two and be done with it, no offence.
    Depression as an illness is real. Many go unhelped. Too many think they have it, but actually don't. Get juiced up on goofballs which fcuks up their brain chemistry enough to make them clinically ill. Medicine at the moment isn't helping. If it was how come more people are cutting, anorexic, suicidal than were 20 years ago? TL;DR there's self indulgent ballsology on both sides of this argument.
    That's just insulting. Very few people have trained in philosophy, fewer still in logical thought or read de Bono avidly. If you have expertise in this field, take it to the Debating or Philosophy forums, as this is AH. Otherwise, summarise your point and stop derailing the thread.
    Translation; dumb it down or else. Christ I've been "dumbing it down" as is. If you take that as an insult, you're part of the problem. Taking it as a challenge to think "right that pseud prick, I'm gonna read up and prove him wrong and expand my own head" then you're so much more part of the solution. Too many today are internally passive, while thinking of themselves as somehow special. That disconnect will fcuk you up every time. Rule 1, you don't deserve a goddamn thing, not least respect, you have to earn it. YOu dont deserve a public voice you have to earn it. You dont deserve a partner, you have to earn her or him. Get rid of that sense of entitlement and you would rid much of the soul jarring feelings when you dont get them.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #388
    scientific1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭scientific1982


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Link me one concrete study that has shown this in non captive animals. End of.

    In the wild, depression in animals could only be deduced by observing their behaviour. Thats hardly concrete. The only way to diagnose it with any accuracy would be in a clinical setting.
    They do. Placebo is as effective in low to medium levels of depression as SSRIs. It still is. Ask anyone with full blown clinical bipolar or schizophrenia.

    Placebo as effective in treating depression as SSRIs? Where are your sources. Lets tell everyone with bipolar disorder and schizophrenia to discontinue their meds then. See how that pans out for them.

    Eh no. Jesus, a knowledge of basic anatomy would help.

    Eh yes. I hope for your sake you're not serious.



    Right. I think you need to go away and read up basic stuff about definitions and all that stuff. A grounding in basic philosophic and logical thought would help too. extremophiles and the PC are so far apart on soooo many levels it would be a labour to have to join the dots on the point.


    Yeah, I'm aware that extremophiles and a PC are very different. As you well know I used extremeophiles to show that uniqueness does not equal the "supernatural".


  • #389
    Charlie.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 78 ✭✭Charlie.


    Wibbs wrote: »
    If that reduced the rate of people topping themselves more effectively than other methods, then what was the harm?

    Oh my God are you actually for real???
    I suppose you think it should still be a criminal offence aswell do you?
    Do you actually believe it resulted in a lower incidence of suicide?
    Most likely suicides back then were probably reported as accidents instead because of that.
    Again I don't think this is the kind of discussion the OP intended this thread to be for.


  • #390
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,329 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Charlie. wrote: »
    I went off on a bit of a tangent there sorry...the point I was trying to make is that I now find it hard to understand and put myself back into the shoes of my depressed 16 year old self, therefore I don't think anyone who has never suffered depression would realistically be able to understand what depression is or isn't.
    Oh no I do understand what you're saying. I cant ever fully understand, but at the same time, I think in all of this we do forget that sometimes, actually quite commonly some people are just arseholes. NO amount of clinical attention will ever change that. I think we still revel in this false(IMHO) notion that we're all blank slates and inherently "good" but life/DNA got in the way. I say, for the most part, maybe 70 odd % this is true, but what is also true is that the world begets arseholes and pricks and whiny emos. NO amount will ever help the latter.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



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  • #391
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,329 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Charlie. wrote: »
    Oh my God are you actually for real???
    I suppose you think it should still be a criminal offence aswell do you?
    Do you actually believe it resulted than a lower incidence of suicide?
    Most likely suicides back then were probably reported as accidents instead because of that.
    Again I don't think this is the kind of discussion the OP intended this thread to be for.
    They're still recorded as accidents FYI. Of the guys I've seen buried after suicide all but one was logged as accidents. The fact remains, suicide is on the increase yet the purported support systems are more plentiful than before? Get off the emotive train and ask yourself what is wrong with this picture.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



This discussion has been closed.
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