Depression

t0mm13b

t0mm13b wrote: »

@SteadyEddy: Publicly I apologize for my outburst.... I sent you a pm offering my apologies....

Sorry for ruining the thread....

You didn't ruin your thread, don't worry. It's still going to go on. Don't worry

strokemyclover

Confab wrote: »

Group therapy is outdated and ineffective from what I've seen. One-to-one CBT is a good tool.

The one thing that fails utterly is talking about the past. I trained in hypnotherapy and psychoanalysis, and the key to it all was arsing around spitting Freud at the erstwhile client and suggesting madeup scenarios in the hope of getting somewhere. My trainee therapist even tried to suggest that I was abused as a kid, probably to get a rise out of me. Can't say I remember being abused. I'dve saved myself a lot of money if I listened that nagging voice telling me the whole concept was incredibly flawed bullshit.

I'm not going to argue with you because everyone finds their own way of dealing with their problems. All I'm saying is that for my personal situation, group would have done me the world of good but I couldn't engage because of long term members taking liberties which shouldn't have been afforded to them in the first place.

I am continuing with one to one and have tried CBT but group seemed like the best way out. I just couldn't remain in such a negative environment due to these long term members "owning" the group and them owners being similar personalities to those which caused my problems in the first place!

Dionysus

Wibbs wrote: »

I also really don't buy the widespread dosing of people with mild depression with very fcuking heavy duty chemicals, in particular the SSRI's and MAOI's. Its my firm(if unpopular belief) that these are being handed out with the same wild abandon as antibiotics were up to quite recently.

As with other people on this thread who have said as much, I agree 100% with you. I wouldn't say that's an unpopular belief; quite the opposite in fact. It is fairly bizarre that the IMO has not come out with a position on this given the many objections to GPs offering Prozac and the like out with seemingly wild abandon/

Wibbs wrote: »

It's my humble that we'll reap a similar bitter harvest from the SSRIs.

Agree very much once again.

Wibbs wrote: »

Personally, cards on the table? I've known quite a few people who suffered from this illness. Two bipolar types and I wouldnt wish that on my worst enemy.:( Others with severe clinical depression, 2 I buried after they died by their own hand. On the other hand I've also met quite a number who self described and were clinicallly described as depressives and it was my firm opinion that they were for the most part self centred and self indulgent moany gits looking to extend the external attention of childhood for as long as possible. It is my firm opinion there are way more of the latter than the former and the over medicalisation of it does not help.

As an opinion, this is one thing. As a statement of verifiable, scientifically-based fact, this is wrong on so many levels.

Joey the lips

I believe there is many people out there suffering from depression and have yet to realise it. Either because they are extremly busy in work or home or are simply in denial

C_Dawg

I'm not one for arguing this and that, I just know that my own depression (not self diagnosed) has had a huge impact on my life for the last 8 plus years.

It is great though to see this serious topic being discussed in After Hours.

Not great points to add to the thread at all but I felt the need to make my mark.

I think this thread has become something huge - nearly 500 people have voted. Keep going. Just voting is an acknowledgement of a problem that is there.

Dionysus

WesternNight wrote: »

I'd have to agree with Wibbs about that. All the time you hear people say "I'm SO depressed today" and proceed to whinge and moan and sulk. That's not depression. The term is bandied about every day, almost always inaccurately. When someone is genuinely diagnosed with actual clinical depression and they tell someone about it, they hear it with the same ears as they hear the aforementioned "depressed" people. But it's not the same. At all. And people really need to realise that.

edit - that's really badly phrased but you get what I mean :P

First, it's perfectly true and accurate for somebody to say they're "depressed" without being clinically depressed. Long before clinical depression was defined, people were claiming to be depressed. The meaning of 'depression' in English as being 'depressed mentally' is dated to as far back as c. 1600, according to Online Etymology Dictionary. A precursor of clinical depression was, however, commonly known by the name 'melancholy'. Second, I can't imagine many people on this thread are equating "shíte day" with clinical depression.

pheasant tail

Joey the lips wrote: »

I believe there is many people out there suffering from depression and have yet to realise it. Either because they are extremly busy in work or home or are simply in denial

Thats very very true,,i know i would never ever have been to see a pschyarist only my parents picked up on many signs and forced me into it,,i was like 'no im grand'...attitude! I dont think you realise how bad you are until you actually go into the process,was for me anyway,i hear it gets worse before it gets better

Geansai Rua

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

For what its worth I decided to tell my mother today.

Apparently I may have:

Iron deficiency, take vitamin tablets!
Have been stuck in my room too much
Should read the secret
Should go back to mass
Too much time on the internet
Should try holistic medicine
Should burn lavender
Hormonal imbalance, also explains thinning hair

After I shot down all those things she finally suggested I should go to the doctor, who would do a blood test which would explain everything!

The best bit was when she said "What do you have to feel down about?" Which has made me feel pretty guilty. The worse thing is that she really means all those things and is trying to help.

The fact that I expected that reaction means it doesnt really bother me.

Dunno why Im posting about it here really, thought someone might be interested.

I just wanted to say well done! Your a lot braver than I am.. U should be proud. Im around the same age as you so if ya need a chat anytime just do the PM thing!! I get what you mean about the feeling guilty because you have more than others.. Thats why I couldnt say anything to anyone.
Sounds like the exact reaction I would get from my family!
:rolleyes:

WesternNight

Dionysus wrote: »

First, it's perfectly true and accurate for somebody to say they're "depressed" without being clinically depressed. Long before clinical depression was defined, people were claiming to be depressed. The meaning of 'depression' as being 'depressed mentally' is dated to c. 1600, according to Online Etymology Dictionary. Second, I can't imagine many people on this thread are equating "shíte day" with clinical depression. A precursor of clinical depression was, however, commonly known by the name 'melancholy'.

What I mean is, if people throw around the word when they're just having a bad day they might not quite appreciate the seriousness of it if, for instance, someone they know tells them they've been diagnosed with depression. It's not taken as seriously as, perhaps, it should be. They might think that "snap out of it!" is good advice, or some herbal remedy or a good night's sleep will sort the problem.

The word "depression" means different things to different people and in different contexts, but as an actual clinical condition it fits a particular criteria and that's what we're talking about here.

Wibbs

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Wibbs I gotta say Im pretty shocked.

Why? Because I don't fall behind one side that says "oh it's all an illness you know". I don't fall behind the "cop yourself on" side either. Depression is a sacred cow on both sides I've found.

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Did he not say they were clinically diagnosed?

Like WesternNight said, that's no indication. The medical profession is as much a business and a fashion as it is a science. Make no mistake about that. How many GP's you know have anything approaching pharmacist knowledge? Hell I've seen two cases where a qualified psychiatrist changed a script from a strong SSRI to a strong MAOI overnight with patients in their care(google mixing those two). One of these fcukwits is a well known and respected consultant, but both were/are utter morons to make such a simple and obvious mistake. It gets better when you add in that one of these patients had a bad heart.

scientific1982 wrote: »

On your first point, how do you know that animals dont suffer from a form of depression.

OK yea but that's whataboutry until you can show me evidence for it.

There is a biological basis for depression i.e changes in brain chemistry, so it would be very unusual for this phenomena to be unique to humans.

Maybe not. We have unique brains for a start, so it could be unique to us. Many things are. Show me another animal with an opposable thumb(If some cnut says a crab, you're going on my list:D).

Also, this argument about whats "natural" and "unnatural" is pretty silly. We're part of the natural world, how could a condition that affects us or something we do be outside of that.

Yes and no. We have created a supernatural world by virtue of our brains and culture and technology. It may have sprung from the natural but that doesnt make it so. You're typing this on the remants of dead sea creatures, sand and rock hewn from the "natural" ground, is your PC "natural"?

On your second point, what data are you referring to and what exactly is our "natural state". Yes humans are risk taking animals, but we're also pattern seeking animals with highly analytical minds.

So? What's your point? How does that relate to the clearly recent jump in people being flagged as depressed?

In relation to our hunter gatherer ancestors, what studies show that they had lower levels of depression and how was this quantified.

Not ancestors, current populations who live that lifestyle have far less depression. http://www.examiner.com/alternative-medicine-in-buffalo/the-hunter-gatherer-approach-to-preventing-and-treating-depression http://www.bottomlinesecrets.com/article.html?article_id=100000044 Why? better diets, more exercise, more social contact, more spiritual, less insular.

pheasant tail

Thats true,the word depression is thrown about way too much totally out of meaning.
I live in the country and the words 'clinical depression' are unheard off. Ive told 2 people that im depressed and they immediately ask 'about what??' which is so frustrating but i dont blame them as if you havent experienced depression i think its impossibe to ever understand!!:(

steddyeddy

t0mm13b wrote: »

@SteadyEddy: Publicly I apologize for my outburst.... I sent you a pm offering my apologies....

Sorry for ruining the thread....

you didnt ruin the thread man dont worry your a good guy

Dionysus

Joey the lips wrote: »

I believe there is many people out there suffering from depression and have yet to realise it. Either because they are extremly busy in work or home or are simply in denial

There's absolutely no doubt about that. And there are many rational reasons why people would wish to avoid being 'labelled'.

The notion that depression is a 'trendy' illness is risible.

Sardonicat

Wibbs wrote: »

Like WesternNight said, that's no indication. The medical profession is as much a business and a fashion as it is a science. Make no mistake about that. How many GP's you know have anything approaching pharmacist knowledge? Hell I've seen two cases where a qualified psychiatrist changed a script from a strong SSRI to a strong MAOI overnight with patients in their care(google mixing those two). One of these fcukwits is a well known and respected consultant, but both were/are utter morons to make such a simple and obvious mistake. It gets better when you add in that one of these patients had a bad heart.


/QUOTE]

Jebus, H Christ! Can they not use a MIMS/BNF? Or do they think they are omniscient and no longer need to do a simple check? Fcuking infuriating.

I think this is more symptomatic of the low regard and general lack of respect "psych" patients evoke, even by some of the professionals treating them. I could share a few stories, but here is not the place.

Wibbs

Dionysus wrote: »

As an opinion, this is one thing. As a statement of verifiable, scientifically-based fact, this is wrong on so many levels.

Oh I agree, like I said it was an opinion, but one I firmly believe. IE that many so called depressed types are self centered and self indulgent people who are looking for an excuse or reason not to enter into life after adolescence, such as it may be for them. I think it starts off as an innocent enough teenage malaise, but builds on itself, because its not nipped in the bud early enough and spirals out of control. Add in a lazy GP who juices them up on goofballs meant for more deserving severe cases and you've got a chemically bipolar type convinced all their ills are down to their illness and you've got a longterm problem. This cutting lark is a perfect example. I'm old enough to remember a time when this was as rare as rocking horse shíte. Bear in mind I have practicing shrinks in the extended family and we've chatted about this very thing. 20/30 years ago? Seriously rare. Now? Every second emo with a penchant for black turtlenecks is having fun with the razor blades. Can you claim that's genetic/"natural"? Nope its a social meme and a fashion. It is or can be a release for some deeper malaise, but don't tell me it's not a "fashion" of sorts.

Wolfe Tone

Why? Because I don't fall behind one side that says "oh it's all an illness you know". I don't fall behind the "cop yourself on" side either. Depression is a sacred cow on both sides I've found.

Fair enough Wibbs, it just didnt seem the ideal time to bash people who had gone to get help and ha been diagnosed.

pampootie

Talking to someone isn't always as simple as it sounds though, is it? I'm speaking from my own personal experience here. I work as a pharmacist and see people every day suffering from depression, I've spoken to dozens about it and tried to help in any way I can, and I really hope I'm empathetic and help them in some small way.
But, several years ago, when I was in my teens, my best friend was diagnosed with bipolar depression. I was the only one she told, for a period of at least 4 years. I tried really hard to help her. I asked her to tell her family, she wouldn't. I asked her to go for counselling, offered to go with her-she wouldn't. I used to go stay at her house, she'd wake me up in the middle of the night and make me watch her binge eat, or pull her hair out with her hands, asking "am I scaring you?" I didn't know what to do.
The breaking point came after my mother died when I was 16, and I went through a bout of reactive depression afterward. I couldn't handle her during this period. A lot of it stemmed from the fact that the first words she said to me at my mothers funeral were "Oh, thank God this has happened you and not me, I'd never cope". I was sick to death of her selfishness. I know that's maybe not fair, but it's how I felt.
A few months later, when I had started coping with my mothers death a bit better, we got closer again and I tried once more to make her get help, make her understand that leaning on me wasn't an option because I couldn't support her. No joy. Then I moved away to college, she started smoking weed all the time and it got harder and harder to ever talk to her properly. We lost touch totally eventually. I try ringing and texting her the odd time since, no response ever. I see her sister every now and then, she always just says she's fine.
It tears me up with guilt whenever I think of it. We were friends for so so long, and I always feel I failed her. I think of her every single day at work when I talk to someone with a similar problem and I worry for her. I just wish I could have done something. I don't know what I hoped to achieve by writing all this either, just this thread made me think of her as soon as I opened it. I suppose what I mean is that by all means, you need to speak to friends or family members, but sometimes, some depressions need a greater help, from counselling or medications or whatever, and it's important to recognise when that is.

Mr Benevolent

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh I agree, like I said it was an opinion, but one I firmly believe. IE that many so called depressed types are self centered and self indulgent people who are looking for an excuse or reason not to enter into life after adolescence, such as it may be for them. I think it starts off as an innocent enough teenage malaise, but builds on itself, because its not nipped in the bud early enough and spirals out of control. Add in a lazy GP who juices them up on goofballs meant for more deserving severe cases and you've got a chemically bipolar type convinced all their ills are down to their illness and you've got a longterm problem. This cutting lark is a perfect example. I'm old enough to remember a time when this was as rare as rocking horse shíte. Bear in mind I have practicing shrinks in the extended family and we've chatted about this very thing. 20/30 years ago? Seriously rare. Now? Every second emo with a penchant for black turtlenecks is having fun with the razor blades. Can you claim that's genetic/"natural"? Nope its a social meme and a fashion. It is or can be a release for some deeper malaise, but don't tell me it's not a "fashion" of sorts.

Wow. Generalise much? I agree about the cutting being trendy (much like fainting fits in the 1800s and catalepsy in the early 1900s), but I think you're tar way too many people with the same brush. That said, I believe don't believe in genetic depression. People are responsible for their own thoughts, and while it seems difficult to change those thoughts at the start, it can and has been done countless times. I'm sure there are a smaller group of people who use depression as an excuse for everything, but mark my words, depression is real, psychologists and psychiatrists are far from infallible and people can spend their whole lives not telling anyone about their genuine depression because people spout shit like

...many so called depressed types are self centered and self indulgent people who are looking for an excuse or reason not to enter into life after adolescence, such as it may be for them

All you're doing is perpetuating a sordid stereotype and marking yourself out as the very person who needs to be educated that depression isn't just looking for attention. Yes, people do fake depression. Some will fake their own death if it means sympathy. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there. Ever visited a public mental hospital? None of the patients are faking in those hellholes, believe me.

Cop on to yourself.

t0mm13b

Dionysus wrote: »

There's absolutely no doubt about that. And there are many rational reasons why people would wish to avoid being 'labelled'.

The notion that depression is a 'trendy' illness is risible.

Have to say, am inclined to agree that having a 'label' attached, can put people off, due to their own insecurities or fears....and dissociate themselves from the actual meaning of the label....

That is where the stigma creeps in, and quite rightly so, from their upbringing where they were taught right and wrong and invariably get distorted through their own interpretation hence avoid anyone who has a 'label' such as sexual/religion/race etc.... even... this line...."I am depressed and need some one to talk to", those that have the stigma well ingrained into themselves, may well avoid them like a plague as if it was a contagion disease....

The question remains.... do people abuse the word depression in varying contexts? Now this is a hairy question.... not to put down those who suffer genuinely.... but an open-ended question....

Sardonicat

Wibbs wrote: »

Oh I agree, like I said it was an opinion, but one I firmly believe. IE that many so called depressed types are self centered and self indulgent people who are looking for an excuse or reason not to enter into life after adolescence, such as it may be for them. I think it starts off as an innocent enough teenage malaise, but builds on itself, because its not nipped in the bud early enough and spirals out of control. Add in a lazy GP who juices them up on goofballs meant for more deserving severe cases and you've got a chemically bipolar type convinced all their ills are down to their illness and you've got a longterm problem. This cutting lark is a perfect example. I'm old enough to remember a time when this was as rare as rocking horse shíte. Bear in mind I have practicing shrinks in the extended family and we've chatted about this very thing. 20/30 years ago? Seriously rare. Now? Every second emo with a penchant for black turtlenecks is having fun with the razor blades. Can you claim that's genetic/"natural"? Nope its a social meme and a fashion. It is or can be a release for some deeper malaise, but don't tell me it's not a "fashion" of sorts.

Are they self centred, self indulgent types, or chemically bipolar types?

Thing is, Wibbs, people 20-30 years ago just weren't open about these things, especially in rural areas, where people didn't tell their feelings. We're reaching a stage where it's OK to admit there are problems. And for someone to come along and say, "you're not depressed" will only shove them back into silence, and will just increase the rate of suicide in this country. Yes, some people (and I believe this to be in the minority) are claiming to be depressed when they aren't but this may make someone who actually is realise that they might just be.

cleremy jarkson

http://www.who.int/mental_health/media/irel.pdf

It seems official suicide rates have quadrupled in Ireland since the middle of the last century. Can anyone offer any explanations as to why this might be?

Novella

Deleted User wrote: »

Thing is, Wibbs, people 20-30 years ago just weren't open about these things, especially in rural areas, where people didn't tell their feelings. We're reaching a stage where it's OK to admit there are problems. And for someone to come along and say, "you're not depressed" will only shove them back into silence, and will just increase the rate of suicide in this country. Yes, some people (and I believe this to be in the minority) are claiming to be depressed when they aren't but this may make someone who actually is realise that they might just be.

I love what you're doing with this thread, and encouraging people to be open and to talk, I really do. However, I don't think that Wibbs is suggesting telling someone that they are not depressed. It is just rather important that there are tighter measures on things such as diagnosing a medical condition like this. Every person who walks into a GP's office shouldn't have the option of getting an anti-depressant prescription. Depression is way too serious than to have a 5/10 minute consult and a "Yup, that's depression. Take these. See you in a month".

I'm sure if diagnosis was (can't think of an appropriate word right now) stricter, a lot less people would be claiming they were depressed and less people would be medicated unnecessarily. That would only benefit those who were suffering greatly, as there would be more attention to their care and treatment.

Wibbs

Sardonicat wrote: »

Are they self centred, self indulgent types, or chemically bipolar types?

Maybe or we're back to the pill for every ill or the ill for every pill? And yes some people are just self indulgent immature arseholes who make others lives a misery. That doesnt always require a clinical diagnosis.

Deleted User wrote: »

Thing is, Wibbs, people 20-30 years ago just weren't open about these things, especially in rural areas, where people didn't tell their feelings. We're reaching a stage where it's OK to admit there are problems. And for someone to come along and say, "you're not depressed" will only shove them back into silence, and will just increase the rate of suicide in this country. Yes, some people (and I believe this to be in the minority) are claiming to be depressed when they aren't but this may make someone who actually is realise that they might just be.

Yep all good in theory, but how come that in the west with more access to shrinks and medication and therapies the suicide rates are going up not down. Seems at complete odds with other conditions. I mean if you fire a load of obstetricians and midwives into an area then neo and post natal deaths go down, yet adding more shrinks the rate of illness goes up? eh wut? Makes zero sense.

Then the main problem could be that there are not enough counselors. Someone should be able to visit a counselor instead of their GP.

pheasant tail

cleremy jarkson wrote: »

http://www.who.int/mental_health/media/irel.pdf

It seems official suicide rates have quadrupled in Ireland since the middle of the last century. Can anyone offer any explanations as to why this might be?[/QUote


A lot more stress and pressure..?? especially on young people!!

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Maybe or we're back to the pill for every ill or the ill for every pill?

Yep all good in theory, but how come that in the west with more access to shrinks and medication and therapies the suicide rates are going up not down. Seems at complete odds with other conditions. I mean if you fire a load of obstetricians and midwives into an area then neo and post natal deaths go down, yet adding more shrinks the rate of illness goes up? eh wut? Makes zero sense.

When you say the West, do you mean the Western World or the West of Ireland specifically?

Having access to shrinks doesn't specifically mean that you go see one.

WesternNight

Confab wrote: »

All you're doing is perpetuating a sordid stereotype and marking yourself out as the very person who needs to be educated that depression isn't just looking for attention. Yes, people do fake depression. Some will fake their own death if it means sympathy. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there. Ever visited a public mental hospital? None of the patients are faking in those hellholes, believe me.

Cop on to yourself.

I think you've reeeeally misunderstood Wibbs' point.

Either that or I have.

Mr Benevolent

Wibbs wrote: »

but how come that in the west with more access to shrinks and medication and therapies the suicide rates are going up not down.

Poor psychiatry? Misdiagnosis? Lack of people admitting a problem because people like you tell them that 'Ah sure it's all in your head boi. Toughen up!'