Depression

steddyeddy

t0mm13b wrote: »

Thats your prerogative.... which is fine... but don't tell us by spouting about some evolutionary psychologist....

this is as real as it gets and has nothing to do with the "evolutionary" crackpot theory... it can happen to anyone as it happened to myself included... it will bite you hard in the arse... this thread is about sharing in order to get rid of the stigma and lay bare the difficulties of it... who needs to know "animals suffer with it"....

Some who have posted previously can feel suicidal and tbqh what you said does not help one bit at all...

im sorry man but thats not what i meant at all i suffered from depression and this helps me and i believe it. i never said depression wasnt tough. i started with depression is nothing to be ashamed of its natural and for some reason you think its ok to attack my opinion.

t0mm13b

steddyeddy wrote: »

im sorry man but thats not what i meant at all i suffered from depression and this helps me and i believe it. i never said depression wasnt tough. i started with depression is nothing to be ashamed of its natural and for some reason you think its ok to attack my opinion.

Don't twist this up and try put it back on me..... :mad: read your posting again and think how would a sufferer feel after reading it.... that was the point I'm making... some are not capable of actually digesting your posting.... am sorry if you think I'm attacking... fine but don't push it down on others into thinking that it's a "mechanism from threat" and quote b.s.... tell me this

It helped me to realize that its natural and evolved as a prtective mechanisim to help us.

- how does that help someone....?

anniehoo

WesternNight wrote: »

Eh. What? Are you a physician?

I could have trouble sleeping because of some pain or discomfort somewhere in my body. I could be regularly tearful because I'm a ****ty relationship, or in a job I hate. I could be tired on a regular basis because of an excessively busy schedule, or because of a bad diet. I could have all of that happening at the same time, for more than a month and I would not be clinically depressed. It's not as simple as that.

This is part of the problem here, folks.

+1 this "ticking the box" is where the grey zone comes into play and why its such a god damn confusing condition to diagnose and treat. I could tick a lot of the boxes depending on whats going on in my life. Im a night owl too. Im sh!t in the mornings,worry too much,sensitive and am quite "moody",but i personally think this is part of my nature and i know myself quite well i think to know when im "off".Im also funny,friendly,sarcastic,stubborn,loving etc blah blah. Its all of those things that make me...well, me. Its what brought me to the docs all those years ago and probably why i dont put myself into categories and self diagnose either (or try not to). Seeing someone with true depression is like watching someone disappear before your very eyes.Ive first hand experience of this debilitating condition take over someones life, being wrongly and continually medicated, passed from doctor to pyschiatrist to pyschologist and back again and NEVER getting an answer. Its a minefield! She had a hysterectomy in her late 30s and i dont think she coped very well,counselling rather than instant meds wouldve been my guess to very honest.

I know with any disease or disorder there has to be a significant list of symptoms present before diagnosis, but ticking boxes can be a dangerous thing. I dont have any answers,if i did my mother wouldnt be where she is now. My only regret is getting so frustrated with her lack of trying (at all) when she has been given endless expensive help over the years. She gave up totally.We dont speak at all now. Im disillusioned with so called professional healthcare people who medicated her instantly,gave her ECT (i disagreed with it at the time but i was too young to get a say) and passed her from billy to jack and chopped and changed meds continuously. Ive now realised that they tried what they were supposed to do but didnt see the person being destroyed in the process.

/this thread has been a big eye opener. Dont think ive ever written so much in AH ever lol

scientific1982

t0mm13b wrote: »

Thats your prerogative.... which is fine... but don't tell us by spouting about some evolutionary psychologist....

this is as real as it gets and has nothing to do with the "evolutionary" crackpot theory... it can happen to anyone as it happened to myself included... it will bite you hard in the arse... this thread is about sharing in order to get rid of the stigma and lay bare the difficulties of it... who needs to know "animals suffer with it"....

Some who have posted previously can feel suicidal and tbqh what you said does not help one bit at all... and your posting sounds condescending and belittling those who were open about it and shared on this thread.....

In fairness to the poster, I dont think he was trying to belittle those that suffer from depression. I've been clinically depressed on a number of occassions and I didnt find his post in the least bit condescending.

Princess Peach

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

For what its worth I decided to tell my mother today.

Apparently I may have:

Iron deficiency, take vitamin tablets!
Have been stuck in my room too much
Should read the secret
Should go back to mass
Too much time on the internet
Should try holistic medicine
Should burn lavender
Hormonal imbalance, also explains thinning hair

After I shot down all those things she finally suggested I should go to the doctor, who would do a blood test which would explain everything!

The best bit was when she said "What do you have to feel down about?" Which has made me feel pretty guilty. The worse thing is that she really means all those things and is trying to help.

The fact that I expected that reaction means it doesnt really bother me.

Dunno why Im posting about it here really, thought someone might be interested.

Read the secret :pac: Mammies make me laugh. Well done though! My parents know nothing. They do get a bit worried when I don't get out of bed somedays, but they don't really question much more.

I did mean to tell them, but I just kept putting it off and I just feel its a bit late now to tell them I've been on medication for over a year. Also at the beginning having to live with them was a big thing that was getting me down, and I didn't really want to make them feel bad. Don't think I'll ever tell them tbh, just don't see it happening. Think my brother has odd suspicions, his room is next to mine and he's heard me cry way to many times. Thank God for men's aversion to emotion, that would be an awkward situation!

You should be proud, thats such a brave thing

WesternNight

steddyeddy wrote: »

im sorry man but thats not what i meant at all i suffered from depression and this helps me and i believe it. i never said depression wasnt tough. i started with depression is nothing to be ashamed of its natural and for some reason you think its ok to attack my opinion.

When you say natural, what exactly do you mean? Can you link us to whatever source you have?

scientific1982

WesternNight wrote: »

When you say natural, what exactly do you mean? Can you link us to whatever source you have?

Heres an article on the subject

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=depressions-evolutionary

flutered

mine comes in cycles, nothing i can do about it, a person i worked with, also we were thrown togeather for days at the time, would never talk with me about it, i often tried to talk with them about it, they just shut up and walked away, the other downer for me is some one who is close to me telling me to get off my arse, go off the medication, its only making you sleepy (i am on 300 mls of effexor each morning), this happens all the time.

t0mm13b

flutered wrote: »

mine comes in cycles, nothing i can do about it, a person i worked with, also we were thrown togeather for days at the time, would never talk with me about it, i often tried to talk with them about it, they just shut up and walked away, the other downer for me is some one who is close to me telling me to get off my arse, go off the medication, its only making you sleepy (i am on 300 mls of effexor each morning), this happens all the time.

Awww man... are you aware of the cycles and what triggers or causes the cycles? No one has a right to tell you to get off your arse... quite frankly, that can be a devastating blow when you're looking for support.... The effexor does make me a bit tired (constantly yawning....) but mine is low dosage - 75mg... have you spoken to your GP about that strength of your medication?

Wolfe Tone

Princess Peach wrote: »

Read the secret :pac: Mammies make me laugh. Well done though! My parents know nothing. They do get a bit worried when I don't get out of bed somedays, but they don't really question much more.

I did mean to tell them, but I just kept putting it off and I just feel its a bit late now to tell them I've been on medication for over a year. Also at the beginning having to live with them was a big thing that was getting me down, and I didn't really want to make them feel bad. Don't think I'll ever tell them tbh, just don't see it happening. Think my brother has odd suspicions, his room is next to mine and he's heard me cry way to many times. Thank God for men's aversion to emotion, that would be an awkward situation!

You should be proud, thats such a brave thing

I laughed when she suggested it! Im not sure how I feel after telling them, dunno yet if it was the right thing to do or not. I asked her not to tell the father, or anyone else.

Wibbs

steddyeddy wrote: »

I dont think depression is anything to be ashamed off, a lot of animals get depression. A top antropologist said thats depression was our ancestors way of telling them to stay in the cave. It helped me to realize that its natural and evolved as a prtective mechanisim to help us. The same with anxiety, whenever i get anxious about something i tell myself that the anxiety is trying to help me but that doesnt mean im facing a threat, it just means theres a system in place to warn me in case theres a threat.

I wouldnt agree with that, or at least not take that end point from it. Point 1, animals don't suffer depression as we know it, or mental stress diseases, except in captivity. So it's not a "natural" state as such. Point 2, maybe the anthropologist should look at data that shows far less depression in human communities living close to the so called "natural" state. Plus then one considers the history of our species and how much of a risk taking bunch we are. If we had stayed in the cave we wouldnt be here. We're also told that one in four are predisposed genetically/biologically to depression, yet studies of hunter gatherers(who can have very stressful lives in many ways) show much lower levels of the condition. You'll notice the scientific american article cites no evidence in its links for depression symptoms in small tribal communities. Just states it exists.

I also really don't buy the widespread dosing of people with mild depression with very fcuking heavy duty chemicals, in particular the SSRI's and MAOI's. Its my firm(if unpopular belief) that these are being handed out with the same wild abandon as antibiotics were up to quite recently. I guarantee if this forum was around in the 70's and I suggested antibiotics should be more tightly controlled I'd have been laughed at. Now we know. It's my humble that we'll reap a similar bitter harvest from the SSRIs. Like antibiotics they're a very useful therapy for an intractable case, but like you shouldnt pump someone with penicillin for a pimple on the nose, dropping Prozac on someone moping over a breakup or a bad term in college etc is equally bloody daft. These drugs have side effects and lots of them too. They make long term changes to brain chemistry and best of all folks, in the cases of mild to medium cases of depression, they're as effective as placebo. Indeed placebo is better in the case of mild.

Personally, cards on the table? I've known quite a few people who suffered from this illness. Two bipolar types and I wouldnt wish that on my worst enemy.:( Others with severe clinical depression, 2 I buried after they died by their own hand. On the other hand I've also met quite a number who self described and were clinicallly described as depressives and it was my firm opinion that they were for the most part self centred and self indulgent moany gits looking to extend the external attention of childhood for as long as possible. It is my firm opinion there are way more of the latter than the former and the over medicalisation of it does not help.

steddyeddy

t0mm13b wrote: »

Don't twist this up and try put it back on me..... :mad: read your posting again and think how would a sufferer feel after reading it.... that was the point I'm making... some are not capable of actually digesting your posting.... am sorry if you think I'm attacking... fine but don't push it down on others into thinking that it's a "mechanism from threat" and quote b.s.... tell me this

- how does that help someone....?

I said i get depressed and stated what helped me and you said what load of poppcock, stop lecturering me. you nicely finish off by telling me what helps me deal with depression is bs.

Wolfe Tone

t was my firm opinion that they were for the most part self centred and self indulgent moany gits looking to extend the external attention of childhood for as long as possible.

Wibbs I gotta say Im pretty shocked.

steddyeddy

WesternNight wrote: »

When you say natural, what exactly do you mean? Can you link us to whatever source you have?

scientific kindly posted a link to what i mean, when i said depression is atural i mean it is a natural response to certain conditions that triggers changes in thinking. i dont think there is anything wrong with a person with depression and i certainly am not ashamed of it.

Princess Peach

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I laughed when she suggested it! Im not sure how I feel after telling them, dunno yet if it was the right thing to do or not. I asked her not to tell the father, or anyone else.

Yeah see my mother can't keep a secret. My dad and several others congratulated me on my first period, I think thats when I stopped talking to her about personal things! I'm not really that close to my parents. Like we get on but I wouldn't be giving them details about my personal life ever, just the main things that they would find out anyway. And we're not a family to discuss feelings, or hug or anything like that.

Well you've done it now, so I'm sure you feel a bit relieved. Guess your just in a kind of limbo now waiting to see what happens next!

WesternNight

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Wibbs I gotta say Im pretty shocked.

I'd have to agree with Wibbs about that. All the time you hear people say "I'm SO depressed today" and proceed to whinge and moan and sulk. That's not depression. The term is bandied about every day, almost always inaccurately. When someone is genuinely diagnosed with actual clinical depression and they tell someone about it, they hear it with the same ears as they hear the aforementioned "depressed" people. But it's not the same. At all. And people really need to realise that.

edit - that's really badly phrased but you get what I mean :P

Wolfe Tone

WesternNight wrote: »

I'd have to agree with Wibbs about that. All the time you hear people say "I'm SO depressed today" and proceed to whinge and moan and sulk. That's not depression. The term is bandied about every day, almost always inaccurately. When someone is genuinely diagnosed with actual clinical depression and they tell someone about it, they hear it with the same ears as they hear the aforementioned "depressed" people. But it's not the same. At all. And people really need to realise that.

edit - that's really badly phrased but you get what I mean :P

Did he not say they were clinically diagnosed?

Wolfe Tone

Princess Peach wrote: »

Yeah see my mother can't keep a secret. My dad and several others congratulated me on my first period, I think thats when I stopped talking to her about personal things! I'm not really that close to my parents. Like we get on but I wouldn't be giving them details about my personal life ever, just the main things that they would find out anyway. And we're not a family to discuss feelings, or hug or anything like that.

Well you've done it now, so I'm sure you feel a bit relieved. Guess your just in a kind of limbo now waiting to see what happens next!

Yeah thats it exactly!

scientific1982

Wibbs wrote: »

I wouldnt agree with that, or at least not take that end point from it. Point 1, animals don't suffer depression as we know it, or mental stress diseases, except in captivity. So it's not a "natural" state as such. Point 2, maybe the anthropologist should look at data that shows far less depression in human communities living close to the so called "natural" state. Plus then one considers the history of our species and how much of a risk taking bunch we are. If we had stayed in the cave we wouldnt be here. We're also told that one in four are predisposed genetically/biologically to depression, yet studies of hunter gatherers(who can have very stressful lives in many ways) show much lower levels of the condition. You'll notice the scientific american article cites no evidence in its links for depression symptoms in small tribal communities. Just states it exists.

On your first point, how do you know that animals dont suffer from a form of depression. There is a biological basis for depression i.e changes in brain chemistry, so it would be very unusual for this phenomena to be unique to humans. Also, this argument about whats "natural" and "unnatural" is pretty silly. We're part of the natural world, how could a condition that affects us or something we do be outside of that.

On your second point, what data are you referring to and what exactly is our "natural state". Yes humans are risk taking animals, but we're also pattern seeking animals with highly analytical minds. In relation to our hunter gatherer ancestors, what studies show that they had lower levels of depression and how was this quantified.

steddyeddy

I wouldnt agree with that, or at least not take that end point from it. Point 1, animals don't suffer depression as we know it, or mental stress diseases, except in captivity. So it's not a "natural" state as such. Point 2, maybe the anthropologist should look at data that shows far less depression in human communities living close to the so called "natural" state. Plus then one considers the history of our species and how much of a risk taking bunch we are. If we had stayed in the cave we wouldnt be here. We're also told that one in four are predisposed genetically/biologically to depression, yet studies of hunter gatherers(who can have very stressful lives in many ways) show much lower levels of the condition. You'll notice the scientific american article cites no evidence in its links for depression symptoms in small tribal communities. Just states it exists.

well i do think animals suffer from depression in certain circumstances, i dont however think they get it for no reason. I would say some animals get depressed after being deposed by a rival or losing a mate. The only case I have heard of tribal people becoming depressed is when they give up tribal life.

I also really don't buy the widespread dosing of people with mild depression with very fcuking heavy duty chemicals, in particular the SSRI's and MAOI's. Its my firm(if unpopular belief) that these are being handed out with the same wild abandon as antibiotics were up to quite recently. I guarantee if this forum was around in the 70's and I suggested antibiotics should be more tightly controlled I'd have been laughed at. Now we know. It's my humble that we'll reap a similar bitter harvest from the SSRIs. Like antibiotics they're a very useful therapy for an intractable case, but like you shouldnt pump someone with penicillin for a pimple on the nose, dropping Prozac on someone moping over a breakup or a bad term in college etc is equally bloody daft. These drugs have side effects and lots of them too. They make long term changes to brain chemistry and best of all folks, in the cases of mild to medium cases of depression, they're as effective as placebo. Indeed placebo is better in the case of mild.

I would agree with that altough i dont suffer from clincal depression, i just get depressed when things go bad and i find depression is my minds way of telling me that. When people are naturally going to be depressed eg after a break up or something, I dont think its healthy to mask their greiving process.

Personally, cards on the table? I've known quite a few people who suffered from this illness. Two bipolar types and I wouldnt wish that on my worst enemy.:( Others with severe clinical depression, 2 I buried after they died by their own hand. On the other hand I've also met quite a number who self described and were clinicallly described as depressives and it was my firm opinion that they were for the most part self centred and self indulgent moany gits looking to extend the external attention of childhood for as long as possible. It is my firm opinion there are way more of the latter than the former and the over medicalisation of it does not help.

Sorry to hear that, i know one or two with bipolar but not closely but from what i see its a nasty illness and very painfull for friends and family of those who have it. it must be very frustrating watching someone who has it.

steddyeddy

Princess Peach wrote: »

Yeah see my mother can't keep a secret. My dad and several others congratulated me on my first period, I think thats when I stopped talking to her about personal things! I'm not really that close to my parents. Like we get on but I wouldn't be giving them details about my personal life ever, just the main things that they would find out anyway. And we're not a family to discuss feelings, or hug or anything like that.

Well you've done it now, so I'm sure you feel a bit relieved. Guess your just in a kind of limbo now waiting to see what happens next!

my parents were like that , my father even opened my letters. i felt it showed a complete lack of respect, so like you I eventually stopped telling them personal things.

sheesh

WesternNight wrote: »

Eh. What? Are you a physician?

I could have trouble sleeping because of some pain or discomfort somewhere in my body. I could be regularly tearful because I'm a ****ty relationship, or in a job I hate. I could be tired on a regular basis because of an excessively busy schedule, or because of a bad diet. I could have all of that happening at the same time, for more than a month and I would not be clinically depressed. It's not as simple as that.

This is part of the problem here, folks.

ok but do you not see you have not answered your own question there. 'assuming there is no other cause' would have been implied there - if some or all of these are present for that period of time Without obvious cause this is what i was told by a doctor when i asked about depression.

I'm not saying its fool proof but if there was no obvious reason for these symtoms. I think you might consider visiting a doctor and asking for advice.

for each of you complaints you had a reason so no that would not count.

Novella

Have to admit, I'm with Wibbs on this one. GP's hand out SSRI's and MAOI's like there's no tomorrow. It's just not on, imo. The amount of people I know who are on anti-depressants is ridiculous. There was actually a thread in tLL a while ago along the lines of, "Depression - the new trendy illness" and ya know, I don't think that's too far off.

I'm not belittling depression as an illness, I thoroughly understand how debilitating it can be, but as far as I'm concerned, a visit to your local doc should not ever be enough to diagnose it. People who are grieving being prescribed an anti-depressant, ffs. Grief! A natural process, a normal emotion. Sure, it can turn into depression, but it should not be possible to walk into your GP, say you're a bit sad and be handed a script for a month of Prozac or whatever.

Maybe that's even some of the problem in this country when it comes to mental illness. Prescriptions just flying out, the utter lack of follow-up. Depression isn't something to be taken as lightly as this. It's not good enough.

sheesh

Novella wrote: »

Have to admit, I'm with Wibbs on this one. GP's hand out SSRI's and MAOI's like there's no tomorrow. It's just not on, imo. The amount of people I know who are on anti-depressants is ridiculous. There was actually a thread in tLL a while ago along the lines of, "Depression - the new trendy illness" and ya know, I don't think that's too far off.

I'm not belittling depression as an illness, I thoroughly understand how debilitating it can be, but as far as I'm concerned, a visit to your local doc should not ever be enough to diagnose it. People who are grieving being prescribed an anti-depressant, ffs. Grief! A natural process, a normal emotion. Sure, it can turn into depression, but it should not be possible to walk into your GP, say you're a bit sad and be handed a script for a month of Prozac or whatever.

Maybe that's even some of the problem in this country when it comes to mental illness. Prescriptions just flying out, the utter lack of follow-up. Depression isn't something to be taken as lightly as this. It's not good enough.

doctors do hand it out way too much my own doctor encouraged me to keep it up for long periods too. The main message is that the doctor will provide the chemical treatment for the symptoms but you have to go out yourself to find someone to talk about it good councilors are hard to find and it does not seem to be well regulated.

WesternNight

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Did he not say they were clinically diagnosed?

Indeed. Unfortunately doctors aren't necessarily immune from jumping on the same bandwagon that lay people do.

strokemyclover

I'd like to go into more detail but I'll just say there are those who abuse the tag "Depressed". Out of respect of others I know in the same situation I'll just say the services available to those who are seriously depressed in this country are abused by attention vampires and they subsequently ruin the possible healing experience for others attending.

This is a well known personality type which goes by several different names - the one I am most familar with is the "Poor Me" personality from The Celestine Prophecy - see link below for others. People might recognise these types of personalities from the characters portrayed by Ed Norton and Helena Bonham-Carter in the film Fight Club.

All I'll say is the limited resources available in this country would produce better results if it wasn't for these people. After all, coming out of depression is about helping yourself over the longer term and not demanding others help you over a similar period of time - I have seen people attending group therapy over a period of years when one or two should be a maximum before suggesting alternative referrals to address their problems!

It's not only our health service which is a shambles in this country, that is all!

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+Celestine+Prophecy.-a016399989

Mr Benevolent

t0mm13b wrote: »

Thats your prerogative.... which is fine... but don't tell us by spouting about some evolutionary psychologist....

....

Some who have posted previously can feel suicidal and tbqh what you said does not help one bit at all... and your posting sounds condescending and belittling those who were open about it and shared on this thread.....

I don't agree, his post made sense to me, and I don't see anything demeaning in it. You just flew off the handle in response to a valid comment. Odysseus has a bit of experience in this area, I'd be interested to hear his comments too.

All I'll say is the limited resources available in this country would produce better results if it wasn't for these people. After all, coming out of depression is about helping yourself over the longer term and not demanding others help you over a similar period of time - I have seen people attending group therapy over a period of years when one or two should be a maximum before suggesting alternative referrals to address their problems!

Group therapy is outdated and ineffective from what I've seen. One-to-one CBT is a good tool.

The one thing that fails utterly is talking about the past. I trained in hypnotherapy and psychoanalysis, and the key to it all was arsing around spitting Freud at the erstwhile client and suggesting madeup scenarios in the hope of getting somewhere. My trainee therapist even tried to suggest that I was abused as a kid, probably to get a rise out of me. Can't say I remember being abused. I'dve saved myself a lot of money if I listened that nagging voice telling me the whole concept was incredibly flawed bullshit.

Dionysus

t0mm13b wrote: »

Don't twist this up and try put it back on me..... :mad: read your posting again and think how would a sufferer feel after reading it.... that was the point I'm making... some are not capable of actually digesting your posting.... am sorry if you think I'm attacking... fine but don't push it down on others into thinking that it's a "mechanism from threat" and quote b.s.... tell me this

- how does that help someone....?

I think you should cut the man some slack here, t0mm. If it helps him to think about it like that, then that's what matters, what should be respected. Likewise, all of us have things which we believe help us, even if other people may not agree with them. Acceptance works in more than one way. 'This Is My truth Tell Me Yours', as the Manic Street Preachers album put it years back.

There's been a great sense of goodwill, respect and togetherness in this thread so far. That makes it very rare in Afterhours. Let's keep it that way, and articulate our dissensions in a more harmonious manner.


'Tread softly for you tread on my dreams'
- Aedh Wishes for the Cloths of Heaven (1899) W.B. Yeats

Mr Benevolent

Dionysus wrote: »

'Tread softly for you tread on my dreams'

Yates was actually moaning about Maud Gonne not putting out. Those poets were randy little bastards.

t0mm13b

Dionysus wrote: »

I think you should cut the man some slack here, t0mm. If it helps him to think about it like that, then that's what matters, what should be respected. Likewise, all of us have things which we believe help us, even if other people may not agree with them. Acceptance works in more than one way. 'This Is My truth Tell Me Yours', as the Manic Street Preachers album put it years back.

There's been a great sense of goodwill, respect and togetherness in this thread so far. That makes it very rare in Afterhours. Let's keep it that way, and articulate our dissensions in a more harmonious manner.


'Tread softly for you tread on my dreams'
- Aedh Wishes for the Cloths of Heaven (1899) W.B. Yeats

@SteadyEddy: Publicly I apologize for my outburst.... I sent you a pm offering my apologies....

Sorry for ruining the thread....