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Trans* Questions

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Is it purely a social construct, or anything more than that? If so, what exactly?

    In a world where people with penises could freely engage in what are seen as "feminine" behaviours, people with vaginas could engage in what are seen as "masculine" behaviours, and people with more ambiguous genitalia would not have to conform to either "masculine" or "feminine" behaviours, would transgenderism exist at all?

    Sorry if I seem ignorant or patronising, I'm just curious.

    It's really important to make a distinction between gender itself, and gender roles. The roles are the cultural and social values and stigmas we attribute or attach to male or female, and those values are what is socially constructed. but a person's gender is their inner sense of self, a person's innate knowledge that they are male, female, somewhere in between, or something else.

    I would say that the idea that gender is a social construct is outdated. if it is purely a social construct then the incredibly sad life of David Reimer would probably have turned out very differently, as would the lives of many intersex people who were wrongly reassigned in infancy.

    You ask would transgenderism still exist, and the answer is yes it would, absolutely. it's a bit of an old chestnut that transgender people transition to escape oppressive and rigid gender roles, but that's a false presumption that has been made by people in the past, perhaps their way of trying to understand why someone would transition? But it's something people are born with, and there's been a whole load of scientific evidence published in recent years that show how it's a physical condition and that male-to-female transsexuals have brain structures and anatomy that correspond to the brains of women, and the same way that female to male transsexuals have the corresponding brain structure of men. so it's not that a transgender person thinks "I like feminine things therefor I must make myself female" it's that they are female in a physical sense, they just have conflicting anatomy. For me, I wasn't particularly girly growing up, my interests weren't and still aren't typically feminine, but I am absolutely female.

    some people don't like that gender is something in our biology, but that doesn't mean that the social and cultural roles that are attached to gender aren't any less contrived and constructed. the roles, stigmas, norms, attitudes, they are the meanings society attaches to gender, and they should absolutely be questioned and challenged.

    hope that helps ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    To the moderators:

    Are we allowed to have a discussion on the nature of gender and the biology sex? A particular view point has been but forward by links234 are alternative stances acceptable?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    Boston wrote: »
    To the moderators:

    Are we allowed to have a discussion on the nature of gender and the biology sex? A particular view point has been but forward by links234 are alternative stances acceptable?

    Tbh, I'd prefer to see such a discussion in Humanities.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,163 ✭✭✭✭Boston


    Then is it right to allow any position to be put forward on the subject if you're not going to allow it to be challenged? Fair is fair. A high level discussion of gender and sex, while definitely more relevant to transsexuals then the average Joe is certainly no more their domain than anybody else's.

    There are several topics already which aren't allow to be discussed on this forum, religion being one of them. However, everyone is covered under that ban. I cannot put forward my views and expect other's not to put forward there's. This is what I mean by clear boundaries.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Boston wrote: »
    Then is it right to allow any position to be put forward on the subject if you're not going to allow it to be challenged? Fair is fair. A high level discussion of gender and sex, while definitely more relevant to transsexuals then the average Joe is certainly no more their domain than anybody else's.

    There are several topics already which aren't allow to be discussed on this forum, religion being one of them. However, everyone is covered under that ban. I cannot put forward my views and expect other's not to put forward there's. This is what I mean by clear boundaries.

    Boston

    You are deliberately trying to provoke reactions here so please don't post in this thread

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 259 ✭✭Eebs


    Boston wrote: »
    Then is it right to allow any position to be put forward on the subject if you're not going to allow it to be challenged? Fair is fair. A high level discussion of gender and sex, while definitely more relevant to transsexuals then the average Joe is certainly no more their domain than anybody else's.

    There are several topics already which aren't allow to be discussed on this forum, religion being one of them. However, everyone is covered under that ban. I cannot put forward my views and expect other's not to put forward there's. This is what I mean by clear boundaries.


    My view doesn't (well intentioned or not) discredit the identity of a subset of people covered under the name of this forum. Clear boundary.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 259 ✭✭Eebs


    You know, I think this actually explains it quite well.


    A person who believes homosexuality is wrong is welcome on the forum, but that viewpoint is not. Not even if they have evidence to back it up and no matter how emphatically they believe it's true.

    A person who believes lesbians just need to meet the right man is welcome on the forum, but that viepoint is not. Not even if they have evidence to back it up and no matter how emphatically they believe it's true.

    A person who believes bi people are all sluts is welcome on the forum, but that viewpoint is not. Not even if they have evidence to back it up and no matter how emphatically they believe it's true.

    A person who believes transwomen are really just men in dresses is welcome on the forum, but that view is not. Not even if they have evidence to back it up and no matter how emphatically they believe it's true.

    It's an LGBT forum, just respect that. That's it. Have your debate in humanities as has been suggested.


    Edit:
    And with respect please stop clogging up the threads, this was getting interesting. Pm the mods if you have a question.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭deirdre_dub


    I'm going to risk jumping in here again.
    Boston wrote: »
    Are we allowed to have a discussion on the nature of gender and the biology sex? A particular view point has been but forward by links234 are alternative stances acceptable?
    The short answer is no. The first post in this thread says what this thread is about -
    This thread is for asking questions about / regarding / to trans people on the board.
    In other words, this thread is where everyone else asks the trans people here about our experiences, beliefs and lives. If you want to spout your own beliefs about trans issues, go elsewhere. The humanities forum has been suggested.
    Then is it right to allow any position to be put forward on the subject if you're not going to allow it to be challenged? Fair is fair. A high level discussion of gender and sex, while definitely more relevant to transsexuals then the average Joe is certainly no more their domain than anybody else's.
    With all due respect, Boston, it most certainly is more our domain than everyone else's. I'm putting my body through major physical and physiological changes, not to mention the social consequences, and because of this, I believe that entitles me to make authoritative statements on what gender is and isn't from the transgender perspective which carry more weight than your statements. If and when you start taking hormones, and start permanently changing your body, I'll then give your statements on the subject due weight.
    There are several topics already which aren't allow to be discussed on this forum, religion being one of them. However, everyone is covered under that ban. I cannot put forward my views and expect other's not to put forward there's. This is what I mean by clear boundaries.
    The boundary is this - if you want to talk about gender issues, you talk about your gender issues, not mine, and not the gender issues of any other transgender person. And you do not make statements on any thread that has been created for the benefit of understanding the transgender phenomenon unless and until you start identifying as transgender. Questions, yes, but not statements. And questions does not mean the kind of diversionary "questions" mentioned in derailing for dummies.

    You are "not allowed" to put forward your "views" on being trans for the same reason that I'm "not allowed" to put forward my "views" on being gay. The reason why I'm not allowed to put forward my "views" on being gay is because I am not gay, and so I cannot possibly understand what it is truly like to be gay. Just about anything and everything I would say about being gay would be second-hand - it would be something that I've learned from other people (most of whom are, themselves, not gay), and so my "views" would most likely be wildly inaccurate, if not downright hurtful.

    Which, of course, is probably going to start you jumping up-and-down about why there are trans people here in the first place. The reasons are many, but one of them is that there are too many similarities between the gay and trans experiences for us to not spend time together. For instance, we both have to deal with issues around coming out. Whereas I cannot say what it is like as a gay man to come out, I can say with authority what it is like to come out, and so I believe my experiences are of use to the gay community (and vice-versa). Also, as has been pointed out, a lot of homophobia is actually people being upset at homosexuals breaking gender norms, and breaking gender norms is something that transgender people do quite well.

    Now, before you respond, please make sure that you have read derailing for dummies, as per the updated forum charter. Either that, or do what I usually do with the gay-related threads on this forum - namely stay away.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper



    With all due respect, Boston, it most certainly is more our domain than everyone else's. .


    That is nonsense. These are people's identities, not Top Trumps.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    Please keep this thread on-topic - feedback goes in the thread on Feedback.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    I have a question

    What is genderqueer?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    I have a question

    What is genderqueer?

    Someone who identifies outside of the gender binary.

    a person who is genderqueer could for example identify as somewhere between male and female or neither male nor female at all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 638 ✭✭✭Endymion


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    I have a question

    What is genderqueer?

    I've encountered a handful of people who've described themselves as genderqueer. It seems to represent people who do not associate fully with there birth gender but who aren't convinced they fit in as another gender either. They generally don't care if you call them a guy or a girl.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Links234 wrote: »
    Someone who identifies outside of the gender binary.

    a person who is genderqueer could for example identify as somewhere between male and female or neither male nor female at all.
    does the Transgender umbrella term cover genderqueer? or is it more specific to people who change sex/gender? - actually there's another question - I don't properly understand the difference between sex and gender - what is the difference? and does a transsexual who has transitioned change one or the other or both?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    does the Transgender umbrella term cover genderqueer? or is it more specific to people who change sex/gender? - actually there's another question - I don't properly understand the difference between sex and gender - what is the difference? and does a transsexual who has transitioned change one or the other or both?

    Yeah, genderqueer is under the transgender umbrella, but transgender is often used in place of transsexual.

    Um, the difference between sex and gender? well, sex is your physical body, and in terms of 'gender identity' your gender is your sense of being male or female.

    a transsexual who has transitioned will have changed sex, but their gender remains the same.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 638 ✭✭✭Endymion


    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    does the Transgender umbrella term cover genderqueer? or is it more specific to people who change sex/gender? - actually there's another question - I don't properly understand the difference between sex and gender - what is the difference? and does a transsexual who has transitioned change one or the other or both?


    Sex refers to the physiological and/or biological characteristics that define men and women. When you refer to someone as male or female you are referring to their sex.

    Gender refers to the culturally derived roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes which society categorises as masculine or feminine.

    That's probably a horrible simplification.

    I found this diagram good.

    Diagram of Sex and Gender

    BIOLOGICAL SEX
    (anatomy, chromosomes, hormones)

    male

    intersex
    female



    GENDER IDENTITY
    (psychological sense of self)

    man
    genderqueer/bigender
    woman



    GENDER EXPRESSION
    (communication of gender)

    masculine
    androgynous
    feminine


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,944 ✭✭✭✭Links234


    Endymion wrote: »
    I found this diagram good.

    oooh, this was on reddit:

    B28NFl.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 638 ✭✭✭Endymion


    That's deadly. Simple but very effective.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,006 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    hmm...

    Can someone be, for example, 100% male in terms of sex and 100% female in terms of gender and not have GID?

    I guess what I'm asking is, does gender dysphoria always manifest itself in individuals whose gender and sex do not match, or are there many individuals who would identify somewhere close to one end of the gender scale, while being biologically the opposite sex, being content with themselves and having no desire to transition?

    Also, what does "masculine" and "feminine" expression mean? If it is simply how much one conforms to socially constructed gender roles, I'd really question it's inclusion here. We should be moving away from categorizing behaviours as being "male" or "female".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,131 ✭✭✭Azure_sky


    The answer to this question is probably somewhere around the forum but can anyone recommend some transgender forums?


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  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,242 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    www.trueselves.com would be a trans forum.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭deirdre_dub


    Azure_sky wrote: »
    The answer to this question is probably somewhere around the forum but can anyone recommend some transgender forums?
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/irishtrannie/
    http://www.angelsforum.co.uk/phpforum/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15 Hexydezimal


    Before I say any more, my apologies to Links. She doesn't quite understand what's really going on here, so I figured I'd sign up and help you all out.

    Let me start from the beginning here...
    There seems to be a lot more m2f than f2m, is this true and if so is there any reason.
    Likely sociocultural issues and a difference in the occurrence of variation. Males need testosterone to be male in brain sex, while female is the default.
    Do most m2f want to go the whole way and get the snip
    Statistically speaking, yes.
    What I see emerging is that transgender is going to be used to refer to people who transition (i.e. people currently referred to as "transsexual" - which is a term that is falling out of favour, because being "transsexual" has nothing whatsoever to do with anything sexual!).
    This is rather where everything starting to go wrong.

    Transgender as a term does not apply to the majority of transsexuals, something I will be going into in the next post on my blog. Transsexual has everything to do with sexuality, because it refers to somebody with the wrong biological brain sex. Being transsexual is a matter of sexual differentiation and identity, not gender.
    Louisevb wrote: »
    Deirdre.. Maybe you could tell me where you are getting this information highlighted in blue? I haven't seen any references to this aspect of hormone treatment.
    Louisevb wrote: »
    Sorry I'm not quite sure what you are saying here, but from what I think you mean I don't get the bit about testosterone being more effective in f2m than estrogen in m2f.
    Testosterone is naturally a more powerful hormone than estrogen. What you were asking about is fundamentally a matter of that potency.
    Louisevb wrote: »
    There is a butch element within the lesbian fraternity who appear to want to be as male as possible in dress hair style etc. so giving the impression of wanting to be male but not actually taking hormones.
    As a femme lesbian myself, this is incorrect; butch lesbians do not want to be male in any way. They may be masculine, but they prefer their female sex.
    SugarHigh wrote: »
    That's incredible. How did he lose so much muscle mass?
    She. Estrogen causes dramatic muscle loss in male-to-female transsexuals. For example, I lost sixty pounds this last year.

    At this point I'd like to say let's ease up on this being offended crap. We are speaking to laymen and women here, there is no need to be so thin-skinned.
    Louisevb wrote: »
    What I'm saying is that perhaps many f2m trans people have been doing the same thing in a lesbian relationship
    Once you are male, it is no longer considered a lesbian relationship.
    There are probably even butch lesbians who present themselves as non-transitioning trans men!
    Butch lesbians want to have nothing to do with being trans men. Trust me.
    (living as the wrong gender)
    They are not living as the wrong gender, they are living as their correct brain sex.
    zoegh wrote: »
    But someone who is in transition, have they not always, for example, been female, just not in the right body for them? You've always been that gender, right, it's just your body doesn't match?
    Correct.
    zoegh wrote: »
    So I guess I'm wondering why is there such opposition to a binary gender system, when most (obviously not all) people can mostly fit into one or the other...
    Because intersex people and transsexuals completely wreck the binary sex system; that's because it is based on what's between your legs, not what's between your ears.

    The brain is the most important sexually differentiating organ in the human body, not the genitalia or the gonads.

    Continued in the next one...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15 Hexydezimal


    Freiheit wrote: »
    I don't know if there is a great deal of opposition to a binary gender system.
    Intersex and transsexual people oppose binary systems by simply existing.
    Eebs wrote: »
    If there were no gender at all I wouldn't have a word to describe a deep and important part of who I am and my identity. A piece so strong it's led me to change my entire life because of it.
    Your identity (and change) had nothing to do with gender. Think sexual identity instead.
    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    does the Transgender umbrella term cover genderqueer? or is it more specific to people who change sex/gender?
    The transgender umbrella covers everybody who dissents from their gender. It actually has nothing to do with most transsexuals, as I illustrated earlier.

    Given a choice, we usually choose the right gender for our brain sex.
    Johnnymcg wrote: »
    I don't properly understand the difference between sex and gender - what is the difference? and does a transsexual who has transitioned change one or the other or both?
    Links234 wrote: »
    Um, the difference between sex and gender? well, sex is your physical body, and in terms of 'gender identity' your gender is your sense of being male or female. a transsexual who has transitioned will have changed sex, but their gender remains the same.
    Sex is physical, gender is mental; that is to say, you learn your gender characteristics. A transsexual woman has the right brain sex for being female, but must often relearn her gender because there are many identifying characteristics of being female that she did not learn growing up.
    Can someone be, for example, 100% male in terms of sex and 100% female in terms of gender and not have GID? I guess what I'm asking is, does gender dysphoria always manifest itself in individuals whose gender and sex do not match
    That is what the psych establishment would have us believe, but it is not the case. Transsexuality occurs in people with the wrong biological brain sex for the rest of their body. There is no such thing as all that nonsense they have been saying.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Question about names:

    1. How do you go about choosing a new name once you start transitioning?
    2. How do you view your new name compared to your old name?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15 Hexydezimal


    Aard wrote: »
    How do you go about choosing a new name once you start transitioning?
    I would imagine everybody does that a little differently. I went through a name website or two making a giant list, and then started filtering until I had some names and meanings that I was happy with. Then I cut it down to one from there.
    Aard wrote: »
    2. How do you view your new name compared to your old name?
    I detested my old name. My co-workers no longer use it, and good riddance.

    picture25a.png


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 638 ✭✭✭Endymion


    Before I say any more, my apologies to Links. She doesn't quite understand what's really going on here, so I figured I'd sign up and help you all out.

    Was that really necessary? Could you not have impressed your views on transsexual without denigrating someone else's? You've mixed fact, sudofact and personal opinion throughout you post, all of it perfectly fair comment, but it doesn't make deirdre or links views wrong.
    Being transsexual is a matter of sexual differentiation and identity, not gender.

    There are many transsexuals who would strongly disagree with that statement. The role gender identity plays in being transsexual is something with is going to be specific to each individual transsexual. It's like a bisexual saying sexuality is only about physical attraction and not about emotional attachment. Being transsexual is not just about how you think, it's how you feel, how you express yourself and how you fit into (or not) gender roles defined by society. Each factor is going to matter more or less to different people.

    Perhaps I misunderstood your comment though, could you provide a link to your blog post?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15 Hexydezimal


    Endymion wrote: »
    Perhaps I misunderstood your comment though, could you provide a link to your blog post?
    You didn't misunderstand much at all, but I'm too busy to respond at the moment. Here's the linky: http://hexydezimal.wordpress.com/

    Back with you in a bit.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭deirdre_dub


    Aard wrote: »
    Question about names:

    1. How do you go about choosing a new name once you start transitioning?
    One night, back in August 2008, I was lying in bed, about to go to sleep, when I decided that my male name wasn't really appropriate anymore. So, I started to think of girl's names. Deirdre was one of the names that popped into my head. I thought of a few others, but went back to Deirdre, and then went to sleep.

    The following night, I was in the Gemini Club (a transgender club in Dublin city centre) for the very first time (this was the real beginning of my gender odessy). I was asked to introduce myself. I introduced myself with my male name, not realising the significance of the question. I was asked if that was my male name or my female name. I responded "male", and then I re-introduced myself as "Deirdre". It marked the very first time I was called that name in public, and was less than 24 hours after I had picked the name.

    I since regret that I didn't put more time and thought into the process. I had thought of using "Kate" instead, but in the end I decided that "Deirdre" had too much momentum behind it in terms of the number of people who knew me by that name. I could have made "Kate" my legal name, but in the end I decided to give myself the name "Deirdre Katherine".

    Why "Kate"? It's a long, and quite personal, story, but it involves some kids I came across many years ago who called me "Kate".
    2. How do you view your new name compared to your old name?
    I'm lucky in that my old name works as a female name. If it didn't, I imagine that it would really grate on me every time I heard it. As it is, I still very much notice it when I'm mistakenly called by that name.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15 Hexydezimal


    Endymion wrote: »
    Was that really necessary? Could you not have impressed your views on transsexual without denigrating someone else's?
    It was rather important that I express such; I do not want people to have the wrong idea here.
    Endymion wrote: »
    You've mixed fact, sudofact and personal opinion throughout you post, all of it perfectly fair comment, but it doesn't make deirdre or links views wrong.
    The scientific evidence and simple fact that gender does not and has never fit as causation for transsexuality is good enough for that.
    Endymion wrote: »
    There are many transsexuals who would strongly disagree with that statement.
    They were often shown or taught something completely different by a psychologist, so that should not surprise you. I'm reclaiming our territory now.
    Endymion wrote: »
    The role gender identity plays in being transsexual is something with is going to be specific to each individual transsexual.
    It has nothing to do with it, and I resent anybody who says this is about something like gender, a dynamic construct that can be controlled or learned.
    Endymion wrote: »
    It's like a bisexual saying sexuality is only about physical attraction and not about emotional attachment.
    How one feels does not change the facts of the matter; orientation is brain-controlled, as well.
    Endymion wrote: »
    Being transsexual is not just about how you think, it's how you feel, how you express yourself and how you fit into (or not) gender roles defined by society. Each factor is going to matter more or less to different people.
    It has nothing to do with gender roles or gender. That has given legions of people the wrong idea about us, and I think it's about time we rid ourselves of it.


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