Trans* Questions

baby and crumble

Yeah, I think that might be good.

deirdre_dub

Some time ago, I started our own boards.ie "Trans 101" here -

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055923166&page=2

So it might be worth looking at that before posting your questions here.

DS333

I have a question. I apologize if it sounds stupid but it is something that struck me after I joined boards.ie and began reading messages from different threads.

The word transgender is new to me. I presume it's used as a general term.

Is the term transvestite still in use? As far as I know it refers to a man who periodically dresses up in female clothes. Is that right or am I still living in the Stone Age?

What I didn't know was that people I would call transvestite have sex with women. Is that the case or have I picked it up wrong? Do their sexual partners know they are transvestites or not?

Are there straight, gay and bisexual transvestites?

If this term is no longer in use, I apologize profusely.

And what is the difference between a transvestite and a drag queen?

God, but I'm ignorant.:o

I'd like to know so as not to put my hoof in it if I meet someone who is a transvestite.

L.Jenkins

I suppose a transvestite can be a person from either gender, who would dress up for purely sexual reasons. I can't imagine there is a preference for sexuality either.

Drag Kings and Queens do so for entertainment purposes. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Links234

DS333 wrote: »

I have a question. I apologize if it sounds stupid but it is something that struck me after I joined boards.ie and began reading messages from different threads.

The word transgender is new to me. I presume it's used as a general term.

Is the term transvestite still in use? As far as I know it refers to a man who periodically dresses up in female clothes. Is that right or am I still living in the Stone Age?

What I didn't know was that people I would call transvestite have sex with women. Is that the case or have I picked it up wrong? Do their sexual partners know they are transvestites or not?

Are there straight, gay and bisexual transvestites?

If this term is no longer in use, I apologize profusely.

And what is the difference between a transvestite and a drag queen?

God, but I'm ignorant.:o

I'd like to know so as not to put my hoof in it if I meet someone who is a transvestite.

Hey DS333, don't worry it doesn't sound stupid

Yeah, 'transgender' is a general term which includes but is not limited to people who are transsexual, gender-queer, transvestite or cross dresser, androgyne.

Transvestite is still in use, but I know that some just prefer cross-dresser. As far as I know, most cross dressers are straight, yes. I have one male friend who is a cross dresser, and he's straight, his girlfriends have known he likes to dress up. I think that some people know their partners cross dress, but some don't, as they might be hiding it or ashamed of it.

and sure, there's gay, straight and bisexual transvestites or cross dressers.

the difference between them and drag artists is that drag is a performance, it's entertainment. this is an example of drag, Derrick Barry performing as Lady Gaga. or on TV Barry Humphries as Dame Edna would be drag.

hope that helps, and if you've got any more questions, feel free to ask.

PS. I would strongly disagree with Itsthatmanagain about transvestites being someone who dresses up for "purely sexual reasons" because I think the reasons can be many and varied and not related to fetishism, though some people do dress for that reason.

deirdre_dub

DS333 wrote: »

The word transgender is new to me. I presume it's used as a general term.

Unfortunately terminology is a bit of a sore point with some trans people.

What I see emerging is that transgender is going to be used to refer to people who transition (i.e. people currently referred to as "transsexual" - which is a term that is falling out of favour, because being "transsexual" has nothing whatsoever to do with anything sexual!).

The "generic" term I see emerging is "trans*".

As for "cross-dresser" - I see that emerging as the term to refer to people who dress for sexual reasons. (Yes, as far as I can see, most TVs do not dress for sexual reasons as such - most seem to dress primarily because they have gender identity issues, though their issues aren't so strong as to drive them towards transition.).

Is the term transvestite still in use? As far as I know it refers to a man who periodically dresses up in female clothes. Is that right or am I still living in the Stone Age?

You are right. I have a number of TV friends who seem quite happy to be referred to as such.

What I didn't know was that people I would call transvestite have sex with women. Is that the case or have I picked it up wrong? Do their sexual partners know they are transvestites or not?

Some do, some don't. It depends on how strong the relationship is and/or how strong the partners prejudices are.

Are there straight, gay and bisexual transvestites?

Being trans has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with sexual orientation. So you have straight trans people, bisexual trans people, and gay trans people. And that applies across all the different "types" of trans people.

And what is the difference between a transvestite and a drag queen?

Very very good question! A drag queen seems to refer to a transvestite who is involved in entertainment. However, I suspect that there are some TVs who dress because they have gender identity issues, and others who dress because they wish to hold up a light to the world's attitudes towards gender. In other words, I think there are "non-performing drag queens" - i.e. TVs who are "motivated" by the need to hold up that light.

God, but I'm ignorant.:o

So was I, until I discovered I was trans myself!!!

I'd like to know so as not to put my hoof in it if I meet someone who is a transvestite.

Let me give you one important rule - never ever refer to anyone using a term that they haven't used to refer to themselves! Not only does that go for the terms mentioned above, it also goes for things like gender pronouns etc.

Chuchoter

This is a question I should probably really know the answer to:o, but you know drag kings and queens, what pronoun applies? I mean do they have any resonance with the gender they are preforming as or is it just a performance? Because I hear people referring to drag queens as she even though they live the rest of their life as a man, so how does that work?

deirdre_dub

crayolastereo wrote: »

This is a question I should probably really know the answer to:o, but you know drag kings and queens, what pronoun applies? I mean do they have any resonance with the gender they are preforming as or is it just a performance? Because I hear people referring to drag queens as she even though they live the rest of their life as a man, so how does that work?

You ALWAYS refer to someone in the gender they tell you they are - not in the gender you think is "most appropriate". To do otherwise is VERY disrespectful.

So drag queens are "she" because THAT IS WHAT THEY SAY THEY ARE. My guess as for what goes on in their head/soul that makes them call themselves "she" is as good as your guess.

Chuchoter

But what if I don't know them and they appear to go by both?

Eebs

crayolastereo wrote: »

But what if I don't know them and they appear to go by both?

Well maybe they don't care either way. Most drag queens I know are really relaxed about the whole pronoun affair and are happy about being called whatever but that said, some really aren't ok with 'she' out of drag. So just play it by year and ask if you can.

hare05

crayolastereo wrote: »

But what if I don't know them and they appear to go by both?

I was talking to Cat McIlroy recently and he prefers just swapping pronouns on a random basis. She's really cool to talk to once you get used to the swapping.

deirdre_dub

crayolastereo wrote: »

But what if I don't know them and they appear to go by both?

If they appear to go by both, then that might just be their identity - not everyone identifies as one-or-the-other. However, a damn good rule of thumb is that if their dress is "feminine", then they are trying to tell you to call them "she" and "her". If their dress is "masculine", then "he" and "him" are probably appropriate.

Here's the thing - us trans people are fully aware of the attitudes towards gender of the society that we live in. We are not stupid. We are aware that it can be difficult for someone who knew us as our birth gender (or, in the case of performing drag artists, our primary gender or whatever) to get used to the new gender pronouns. I recently had the experience of presenting Deirdre for the first time to someone who only ever knew the male me. His response was "oh wow - you look great - it really suits you - good man!". Did I take offense? No - of course not! I responded with "good girl!" and a smile, and he immediately corrected his response.

When I'm out with my TV friends, I use whatever gender pronouns are appropriate to the way they are dressed. If they are in male attire, I use male pronouns, and if they are in female attire, I use female pronouns. Except, that is, if we are out for the night and on the "scene" - in which case, I always use female pronouns, regardless of how they are dressed. But that is because I know them - if you don't know them, then, frankly, I don't think they have the right to take offense if you use male pronouns while they are presenting in male attire! Having said that, if you did use male pronouns, and they politely asked you to switch, then that is a different matter.

deirdre_dub

hare05 wrote: »

I was talking to Cat McIlroy recently and he prefers just swapping pronouns on a random basis. She's really cool to talk to once you get used to the swapping.

I know another F2M who has changed his name to a male name, doesn't take hormones, hasn't made any permanent changes to his body, takes offense to being called a girl, yet sometimes wears skirts!

Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

And, like Cat McIlroy, he's really cool to talk to. He'll give you a chance to get used to his gender identity, but, like the rest of us, he just wants to be respected.

azezil

We hear a lot of news and indeed see threads here about men becoming women but not many about women becoming men. Can the same be said of the Trans* community in general, are there less Trans* female to male people?

deirdre_dub

azezil wrote: »

We hear a lot of news and indeed see threads here about men becoming women but not many about women becoming men. Can the same be said of the Trans* community in general, are there less Trans* female to male people?

Reasons why there seem to be fewer F2M than M2F trans people -

1. A patriarchical society is going to find it harder to understand M2F than F2M, hence the former will have more attention brought to bear on it

2. There are a significant number of men who have a specific sexual interest in trans women - hence even more attention

3. Testosterone has a greater impact on genetic women's bodies than estrogen has on genetic men's bodies. So F2M transgendered people quickly find that they usually blend in to society quite a bit easier than M2F transgendered people. Hence M2F transgendered people are more likely to remain a part of the trans community post-transition

So, yes, F2M are less visible, but I don't think that is because there are fewer of them.

Louisevb

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Reasons why there seem to be fewer F2M than M2F trans people -

1. A patriarchical society is going to find it harder to understand M2F than F2M, hence the former will have more attention brought to bear on it

2. There are a significant number of men who have a specific sexual interest in trans women - hence even more attention

3. Testosterone has a greater impact on genetic women's bodies than estrogen has on genetic men's bodies. So F2M transgendered people quickly find that they usually blend in to society quite a bit easier than M2F transgendered people. Hence M2F transgendered people are more likely to remain a part of the trans community post-transition

So, yes, F2M are less visible, but I don't think that is because there are fewer of them.

Deirdre.. Maybe you could tell me where you are getting this information highlighted in blue? I haven't seen any references to this aspect of hormone treatment.
In point number 2 surely if there were more f2m the same thing would apply in reverse? It just maybe happens that f2m trans people tend to go the butch lesbian route and that is enough.

hare05

Louisevb wrote: »

Deirdre.. Maybe you could tell me where you are getting this information highlighted in blue? I haven't seen any references to this aspect of hormone treatment.
In point number 2 surely if there were more f2m the same thing would apply in reverse? It just maybe happens that f2m trans people tend to go the butch lesbian route and that is enough.

Testosterone causes a lit of changes, many of which are semi-permanent to permanent. The basic human structure is actually quite feminine, and other than hip and bust development, women see no effects from estrogen that can't be seen in men during normal development. Testosterone causes much more drastic changes, often to the skeletal structure. Changes such as increased muscle mass, broadening of the shoulders, development of the Adams Apple, and body hair.

Effectively, men are more heavily changed from the human base by hormones than women are. This makes reversal easier for women, discounting hips and bust.

By the way, not being seen as butch lesbians is a huge challenge for ftms. It causes people to not take their transition seriously. Please don't try to discount this no matter how 'convenient' a fallback option it appears.

Louisevb

Sorry I'm not quite sure what you are saying here, but from what I think you mean I don't get the bit about testosterone being more effective in f2m than estrogen in m2f.
Hormones have a different effect in different people depending on family history and genes etc. I have never read of any research that backs up this hypothesis. Once hormones are stopped the effects are not permanent. Example. My mother and my paternal grandmother had a very small bust an a cup. My maternal grandmother on the other hand was quite well endowed and I expected to be much like my mother but in fact have taken after my maternal grandmother. I'm now a C going on D... Hormone effects cannot be judged in a uniform manner.

hare05

Louisevb wrote: »

Sorry I'm not quite sure what you are saying here, but from what I think you mean I don't get the bit about testosterone being more effective in f2m than estrogen in m2f.
Hormones have a different effect in different people depending on family history and genes etc. I have never read of any research that backs up this hypothesis. Once hormones are stopped the effects are not permanent. Example. My mother and my paternal grandmother had a very small bust an a cup. My maternal grandmother on the other hand was quite well endowed and I expected to be much like my mother but in fact have taken after my maternal grandmother. I'm now a C going on D... Hormone effects cannot be judged in a uniform manner.

Sorry if I wasn't clear...

It's not that any hormone can be described as more 'effective' than any other, a balance is required.

But...

The changes brought on by Testosterone are simply harder to reverse, as they are less focused on fat redistribution and more focused on things like bone mass (and thus skeletal structure). Changes that will not reverse once the supply is cut off.

Estrogen, however, causes less changes to the bones and more to the surrounding tissue.

It's not that E isn't as strong a hormone. It's just that the changes that it makes can be more effectively masked during a transperson's 'second' puberty. (Yet again, not counting bust and hips).

An FtM will gain darker body hair, increased muscle mass and bone density, possible growth to the shoulders and overall height. Once these changes occur, just like any other man, they can't be effectively reduced or reversed by current chemical or biological products, and no surgical procedures exist to cater to these traits as the anatomy of the shoulder is too complex to modify, and attempting to cause bone atrophy (to reduce height) is just plain dangerous.

So, to summarize (I've always wanted to say that lol), testosterone causes more permanent changes to the base human skeletal structure, and thus it's harder to alter an adult male body to resemble an adult female body.

However, although FtMs can present extremely well after hormone treatments, they get a much harder time when it comes to the surgical aspects (if they choose reassignment) than we would. It's just harder to create something without donor material than it is to create something with donor material. (Principal reason I haven't chopped the damn thing off yet.)

deirdre_dub

Louisevb wrote: »

Deirdre.. Maybe you could tell me where you are getting this information highlighted in blue? I haven't seen any references to this aspect of hormone treatment.

Fair point - my statement wasn't based on any reading of the literature - it was based on the simple observation that the trans men I've met usually look significantly better than the trans women.

In point number 2 surely if there were more f2m the same thing would apply in reverse? It just maybe happens that f2m trans people tend to go the butch lesbian route and that is enough.

I don't doubt that there are also a significant number of people who have a specific sexual interest in trans men. My point is that women, trans or otherwise, are more publically sexualised than men, trans or otherwise. That public sexualisation means that trans women are going to end up more visible than trans men.

Eebs

Louisevb wrote: »

It just maybe happens that f2m trans people tend to go the butch lesbian route and that is enough.

Maybe you could tell me where you are getting this information highlighted in blue? I haven't seen any references to this aspect of FTM life.

Louisevb

Just saying what I've seen happening for a long time....There is a butch element within the lesbian fraternity who appear to want to be as male as possible in dress hair style etc. so giving the impression of wanting to be male but not actually taking hormones.

Links234

Louisevb wrote: »

Just saying what I've seen happening for a long time....There is a butch element within the lesbian fraternity who appear to want to be as male as possible in dress hair style etc. so giving the impression of wanting to be male but not actually taking hormones.

I'm sorry Louise, but I think what you are saying is a bit offensive. How would you feel if someone said that many MtF trans people tend to go the drag queen route, and that is enough? There is a drag element within the gay fraternity who appear to want to be as female as possible in dress hair style etc. so giving the impression of wanting to be female but not actually taking hormones.

I think it's really best not to second-guess people's gender identity, and I really think that it's somewhat offensive to presume that a woman who is butch just wants to be a man as if it were the same thing. I'm sure that you as a woman would be highly offended if someone made their assumptions about your gender identity, and thought you're the same as a transvestite. Just as trans men and butch women are not the same thing.

like, I don't want to sound like I'm having a go, but I think what you said lacks a lot of sensitivity to transgender male identities. just as if someone were to suggest that many transgender women would be fine living as feminine males, and that would be enough.

What I'm saying is, butch isn't trans, trans isn't butch.

Carl.Gustav

Eebs wrote: »

and that's what we call misogyny.

I left this thread a couple of weeks ago as it seems I was offending , just had a look now, had to reply to this,

How you could equate dressing up to please your partner with hatred of women is beyond me,

One of the most far out comments I've seen on boards.

deirdre_dub

Carl.Gustav wrote: »

I left this thread a couple of weeks ago as it seems I was offending , just had a look now, had to reply to this,

How you could equate dressing up to please your partner with hatred of women is beyond me

The idea that us trans women do what we do in order to please a partner shows a level of unacceptance of our true nature that hurts. A lot.

What we do has precisely nothing to do with attracting a partner as such.

The only way that what I'm doing affects my ability to attract a partner is in the way that it makes me happier than I've ever been before in my life. That's it. My plan for attracting a partner is to be my true self - nothing more - nothing less - in the hope that my true self is someone that someone else would like to spend their life with. How I dress and what operations I've had or not had is a sideshow - it is not the main event. The main event is between my ears, not between my legs, and certainly not in what is hanging in my closet.

Carl.Gustav

deirdre_dub wrote: »

The idea that us trans women do what we do in order to please a partner shows a level of unacceptance of our true nature that hurts. A lot.

I didn't suggest that your reasons were to please a partner but only do you consider the issue in how far you go in your transformation.

I have no trouble with the idea that a woman could be born in the body of a man, what I would have trouble with if i had found myself in that situation was if I go so far will I be unable to find a partner.

I would rather be uncomfortable in my body with a partner than be comfortable in my body without one and with a very limited prospect of having one.

But I guess thats just down to the individual.

SugarHigh

Links234 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlk3nNya93M

That's incredible. How did he lose so much muscle mass?

I know HRT would make it hard to gain muscle but I didn't think it would reduce what you already have so quickly.

He obviously stopped working out but you still wouldn't lose it that quick, he must have really been starving himself.

rainbow kirby

SugarHigh wrote: »

That's incredible. How did he lose so much muscle mass?

I know HRT would make it hard to gain muscle but I didn't think it would reduce what you already have so quickly.

He obviously stopped working out but you still wouldn't lose it that quick, he must have really been starving himself.

Use the correct pronouns please - if someone identifies as female, refer to them as such.

deirdre_dub

Carl.Gustav wrote: »

I have no trouble with the idea that a woman could be born in the body of a man, what I would have trouble with if i had found myself in that situation was if I go so far will I be unable to find a partner.

I would rather be uncomfortable in my body with a partner than be comfortable in my body without one and with a very limited prospect of having one.

If you had read my earlier posts, you would see that I had already answered that one, where I said -

There comes a level of discomfort in your body which, if you reach it, makes your chances of getting a partner ZERO.

While I was trying to live as a male, I was so uncomfortable in my skin that I could not get a partner. Now that I'm much more comfortable in my skin, I have at least some chance, however slim, of getting a partner.

Yes, it hurts me that transphobia, and they way many men do not accept transgendered women as women, means my chances of getting a partner are significantly reduced. I'm as feminine as any woman, but that doesn't seem to matter somehow. With many men, I seem to have the choice of either being an object of sexual fascination (namely a person with both male and female bits), or a freak (namely a "man" with a vagina). As far as I am concerned, that's their problem, not mine.

deirdre_dub

Carl.Gustav wrote: »

I would rather be uncomfortable in my body with a partner than be comfortable in my body without one and with a very limited prospect of having one.

I would rather be a person on my own than an object in a relationship.

And, at the moment, given that I'm pre-op, were I to meet someone, that is most likely the choice that I would be facing. There are exceptions, but they are few and far between.