Trans* Questions

Carl.Gustav

Eebs wrote:

This thread is for asking questions about / regarding / to trans people on the board. If you've got a question you think might be stupid or not PC then this is where to ask it.

Note: This thread doesn't give you free reign to say whatever you want unchallenged. If you say something here people don't like then they're going to call you on it. The purpose of this thread is to keep these conversations out of other threads.

So with that in mind here are a few videos of some of the typical questions that people ask trans people.

http://www.t-vox.org/index.php?title=Trans_101

Had to some editing of original post - Johnnymcg

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There seems to be a lot more m2f than f2m, is this true and if so is there any reason.

Also what does it feel like to be female ?

If someone asked me what it feels like to be male I couldn't come up with anything deep or profound

I am attracted to woman and want to have sex with them
I like sports I like fighting
i like technology and machinery
i want to be strong
i have little interest in female company unless it leads to sex
i prefer male company
i am not emotional, i dont care about your feelings or relationships
i don't care very much about my appearance beyond being clean and presentable
i don't want to shop
if you come at me i will beat you down
etc etc

L.Jenkins

Carl.Gustav wrote: »

There seems to be a lot more m2f than f2m, is this true and if so is there any reason.

Also what does it feel like to be female?

Male to Female transsexuals have been exploited far more in the media than our ftm counterparts. I could imagine the numbers are pretty even, but there is alot of invisiblity or the exact number of transsexuals here in Ireland is not as transparent. To answer the first question, attention all round seems to be more focused on MTF trans women and our quest to become female.

As for your second, I can't really answer that myself. Each answer is personal. For me it's a complete and utter dissonence with who I am and who I feel I should be. It's not a matter of how I act (the male gender role forced upon me), but how I think and feel. My transition is about changing how I look with how I feel. I still can't answer your second question though, what does it feel like to be female? It's a matter of individual experiences.

hare05

Carl.Gustav wrote: »

There seems to be a lot more m2f than f2m, is this true and if so is there any reason.

Also what does it feel like to be female ?

If someone asked me what it feels like to be male I couldn't come up with anything deep or profound

I am attracted to woman and want to have sex with them
I like sports I like fighting
i like technology and machinery
i want to be strong
i have little interest in female company unless it leads to sex
i prefer male company
i am not emotional, i dont care about your feelings or relationships
i don't care very much about my appearance beyond being clean and presentable
i don't want to shop
if you come at me i will beat you down
etc etc

Honestly much of that is the same for me even though I identify differently to my physical sex.
But how are your hobbies and interests tied to gender? Aren't they more likely a social construct?

A person picks their interests from their surroundings.

I don't 'enjoy' shopping that much, but that's because there's just nothing I shop for which is as enjoyable to acquire as it is to own. If I could present well, however, I'm definite that I would enjoy shopping for clothes and trying different styles.

I'm not at all interested in 'fighting' in the real sense, but I do find the idea of perfection of movement, tactical use of offense and defense, and obviously competition in such things to be enjoyable. I would never strike a person, unless in absolute self defense... But I don't see why I can't enjoy sparring with a friend / competitor in kung fu.

I like technology too. I've built computers, I can confidently tell you where every screw sits in this laptop I'm typing on and can comment on the efficiency of it's cooling system, the software, the hardware, et al. This doesn't make me a guy, it makes me a geek.

So, so far there's not much difference between us. I do care deeply about how my friends feel on an emotional level and it does affect me, but that's not femininity, that's empathy.

I can't tell you what it feels like to be female. I can tell you what it feels like to feel... off.

I can only describe this as a feeling. I've heard some trans people on many forums say it's intense, for me it's more diffuse.
It's particular. I know my boundaries, physically, but they feel... off. Like my visible self is just a suit and I can feel my nerves stopping short of the surface. I've gotten used to this suit, I can move like anyone else and detect stimuli like anyone else but it feels like a touch through a glove. This might describe it pretty well for me, I honestly can't tell you how intense the feeling is as it's just been... there... and it doesn't feel right.

I don't feel at home in my body, to the point where I find near suicidal feats entertaining. Like I'm doing a few donuts in a rental car, if it gets scratched or written off, who cares. I won't be around to pay the bill. Recently, at work, I couldn't be arsed to get the large safety ladder when getting down a 40kg box so I just grabbed the small ladder, and stood on the handlebars while pulling the box off the shelf, then I had to lower the box 2m below my foot height to the floor while the ladder shook and my grip on it consisted of the ridges on the sole of my shoe. I dropped the box halfway there, fell back off the ladder and nearly cracked my head on a steel trolley. I laughed.
It's complete and utter detachment. This is honestly the part that scares me the most about it.

My head is always clouded. My genitals feel foreign, no matter how used to having them I am. I detest my facial hair, I shudder at 'male urges' when they happen, I find myself fidgeting, shivering and shaking when I try to be calm. And another strange thing, and believe me it's damn weird... I feel this numbness in my gut, above my current 'parts' and deep within me. It's different to the usual 'dead leg' feeling, but it's the only way I can describe it. All I can think is 'It's not right'.

I can't honestly think 'something's missing' or 'that shouldn't be there' as I honestly haven't experienced any other existence. But I just... know, you know? It's like the feeling of being watched or when you just 'know' something bad is going to happen right before it does. You can't really put it into words but you just know.

So, I know something is wrong at a deep level. I know what can fix it. The question I have to ask is "How far do I need to take this to be comfortable in my own skin?"

Chuchoter

Carl.Gustav wrote: »

There seems to be a lot more m2f than f2m, is this true and if so is there any reason.

The best reasons I can think of is there are simply far, far less ftms. The other reason is that I think people can understand ftms better than mtfs, even if they're understanding it the wrong way. Men simply don't understand 'demoting' themselves to being women, but I think people do understand wanting to escape a culture that views women as less. My favorite Cement Garden quote:

Julie: Girls can wear jeans and cut their hair short, wear shirts and boots, because it's OK to be a boy, but for a boy to look like a girl is degrading, because you think that being a girl is degrading. But secretly you'd love to know what it's like, wouldn't you? What it feels like for a girl?

I'm not saying this is why anyone transitions, but to the average person, wanting to get rid of male genitalia which is so prized must seem absolutely absurd and bizarre. Babies stare longer at things they don't understand, people talk more about things they don't understand.

L.Jenkins

I myself can't understand how society would still women as a lower social being in society. Not attacking a post, but just annoyed at the fact that some might see my sex change as a social demotion. I'd see it as empowerment and correcting a problem, something thats been long over due.

Chuchoter

ItsThatManAgain wrote: »

I myself can't understand how society would still women as a lower social being in society. Not attacking a post, but just annoyed at the fact that some might see my sex change as a social demotion. I'd see it as empowerment and correcting a problem, something thats been long over due.

I'm not saying that this is what I think at all, and I have no scientific back up at all for my theory, I just think it makes sense in a society that is still fairly chauvinistic to some extent.

L.Jenkins

Your right actually. Society is fairly chauvanistic yet women provide an equal if not greater function in society. The fact that society is predominantly chavanistic is what annoys me ever so slightly. Girl Power I say!

Kanoe

Carl.Gustav wrote: »

There seems to be a lot more m2f than f2m, is this true and if so is there any reason.

Also what does it feel like to be female ?

If someone asked me what it feels like to be male I couldn't come up with anything deep or profound

I am attracted to woman and want to have sex with them
I like sports I like fighting
i like technology and machinery
i want to be strong
i have little interest in female company unless it leads to sex
i prefer male company
i am not emotional, i dont care about your feelings or relationships
i don't care very much about my appearance beyond being clean and presentable
i don't want to shop
if you come at me i will beat you down
etc etc

maybe it's just me but I find the caring compassionate side of me is more masculine in quality than feminine, its why I like it so much.

hare05

It's always 'Girl power' this, 'Be a man' that...

When will the world at large realize that people are people and gender means f* all in one's personal ability to 'climb the ranks' of the social order?

Girls are surpassing boys in nearly every school project, good for those particular girls. Men are currently responsible for a larger number of 'world changing' scientific discoveries, good for those particular guys.
Mother Theresa dedicated her life to helping others, great woman. Bono cancelled the debt of a dozen third world countries by singing rock music. Great man (even if he's a ponce otherwise ).

God knows there are plenty of 'losers' on both sides too.

I am disappoint :mad:

L.Jenkins

Why do I get so flustered with so many equally valid arguements? That's why I'm an awful decision maker.

Kanoe

ItsThatManAgain wrote: »

Why do I get so flustered with so many equally valid arguements? That's why I'm an awful decision maker.

it's all about balance ..a little bit of this..a little bit of that, just nod your head and agree. (its what I do)

electrobi

Gender roles are a load of my non-existent bollox.

hare05

electrobi wrote: »

Gender roles are a load of my non-existent bollox.

Here, take mine. Just put em in a box until Halloween, then go out and scare people. You could go as a ballchinian (men in black, awesome movie)

deirdre_dub

Carl.Gustav wrote: »

There seems to be a lot more m2f than f2m, is this true

I don't think it's true - I think it's that m2f are more of a "puzzle" in a patriarchical society, and so there is more focus on us.

Also what does it feel like to be female ?

Last time I counted there were, oh, something like 3.4 billion answers to that question.

If someone asked me what it feels like to be male I couldn't come up with anything deep or profound

Yes - you are cisgendered. Being male is something that comes naturally to you. Being male is something that was "forced" upon me, which is probably why I have a stronger felt sense of gender than you.

Unfortunately, I suspect the fact that I have a stronger felt sense of gender than you means that I'll find it very difficult to communicate to you what it's "like" for me, as we don't really have a common language in which we can communicate.

... I am ... I like ... I want ... I have ...

Those are pretty typical for a male, but not universally so. However, I would see what you've written as being quite irrelevant to the question at hand.

For me, the key question is "what does your skin feel like?". I could say things like "my skin felt like it wasn't my own", but I suspect that because of the lack of common language problem I mention above, you wouldn't quite understand what it is that I mean when I say that.

I like what some scientists are saying about trans - namely that I have a female brain in a male body. I think and feel like a female, but the rest of me is male, and that makes my body an incredibly uncomfortable place for me to be. I love the physiological consequences of being on HRT (i.e. the consequences of having estrogen and no testosterone) - in particular, the physiological consequences in my brain and the emotional consequences that arise from that. Given that that is such a significant part of the picture for me, and given that you don't (as someone with lots of testosterone and no estrogen) have any way of really understanding what I'm talking about, I hope you can see how difficult answering "what is it like" is going to be...

Eebs

For me, 'being a man' is exactly the same as I was before just more relaxed, more happy with my body etc.

I still think nothing magically changes with transition, except your body and even that is less changed and more augmented. Ultimately it feels like what I think everyone else feels as they walk around not questioning their gender - very normal and everyday.

deirdre_dub

Eebs wrote: »

For me, 'being a man' is exactly the same as I was before just more relaxed, more happy with my body etc.

I still think nothing magically changes with transition, except your body and even that is less changed and more augmented. Ultimately it feels like what I think everyone else feels as they walk around not questioning their gender - very normal and everyday.

On one level, yes, it's all very normal and everyday. And, as you say, it's like I'm finally feeling what I imagine everyone else feels since they were born.

But, on the other hand, I'm still blown away by how much happier and "in my skin" I am.

Links234

Carl.Gustav wrote: »

Also what does it feel like to be female ?

If someone asked me what it feels like to be male I couldn't come up with anything deep or profound

Good question, but my answer is, I only know what if feels like to be me.

the thing you are doing there is you are only focusing on likes and dislikes. yes, I like to shop, but does that make me female? here, read this:

The DSM-IV-TR describes diagnostic criteria for gender identity disorder as:

A. A strong and persistent cross-gender identification (not merely a desire for any perceived cultural advantages of being the other sex). In children, the disturbance is manifested by four (or more) of the following:

1. repeatedly stated desire to be, or insistence that he or she is, the other sex
2. in boys, preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire; in girls, insistence on wearing only stereotypical masculine clothing
3. strong and persistent preferences for cross-sex roles in make-believe play or persistent fantasies of being the other sex
4. intense desire to participate in the stereotypical games and pastimes of the other sex
5. strong preference for playmates of the other sex

B. Persistent discomfort with his or her sex or sense of inappropriateness in the gender role of that sex.
C. The disturbance is not concurrent with a physical intersex condition.
D. The disturbance causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.

First of all, these criteria are completely cissexist (and allows for no one outside the binary), but that’s not really the point. I also think that many cis and trans people miss the language in D. that says “clinically significant distress or impairment.” A lot of cis people like to theorize all kinds of things about trans people and our lives, why we transition. And the popular narrative is a kind of softer, defanged narrative that says “All my life I felt I was assigned the wrong sex.” Said in any number of ways. But this narrative, however it’s worded, fails to convey what this is like.
What it is like for me is pain. It is the pain of having your skin wrapped badly around your body, fitting awkwardly at best. Reminding you that everything is wrong whenever you move, whenever you go to the toilet, whenever you undress, whenever you shower, whenever you wake up, whenever you go to bed, whenever you see a mirror. It is a constant pain. Everything reminds you of it – the pronouns others use for you, the name others use for you. The clothes you wear.
It’s like living in a world where everything is made of sandpaper and it’s always grinding into your skin – your skin that does not fit your body.
You know what your body should be like, should look like. That you have parts you should not and do not have parts that you should. Your body does not behave like it should, move like it should, smell like it should. Your skin is the wrong texture. Puberty changes your body in ways that alienate you further from your own ill-fitting skin. Your voice is wrong, your face is wrong, your chest is wrong, body hair and facial hair are wrong. Some of your internal organs are wrong. In some ways, your skeleton is wrong.
This is not about “I want to play with dolls, wear dresses, go to the hairdresser, go shopping, wear makeup,” or any other insulting and superficial characterizations of trans women’s femininity. That is placing the cart before the horse. What it’s about is this pain and doing what it takes to ease the pain. And you learn that all you do is ease the pain. Because it never stops. The romanticized stories of transition to surgery and a woman happily after? Those are the approved narratives that were told to the public. They were shaped to cis expectations.
But the truth is that it is still difficult. Hormones help a lot. After a time, your skin fits a lot better, but you can still see and feel and hear every single flaw. Flaws that cis people may never notice (but many will helpfully point to other flaws you may have missed!). Sometimes you might not even be able to judge what or how you look because the flaws you can see dominate everything else. But, just in case you happen to forget this even for a little while, you are reminded of the entirely naturalized idea that being trans is such an abject state you deserved to be mocked and attacked – even killed – just for daring to exist, daring to make peace with your own body. Even surgery (any surgery) does not fix this, fix the fact that you live in a transphobic – a trans hating – society. While it can do wonders for your comfort in your skin, it does not always do wonders for your history of living with dysphoria, or even correct all the dysphoria you have now.
Medical transition is the only treatment that helps. Medications don’t, electroshock therapy doesn’t, adminstration of hormones for your CASAB doesn’t work, psychotherapy doesn’t, nothing else works. They have all been tried.
And I am sick and tired of reading cis people’s extremely uninformed beliefs about why trans people are trans, and the motivations they believe we have for transitioning. You’re all ****ing wrong: It’s pain.

Carl.Gustav

Do most m2f want to go the whole way and get the snip, in terms of sexual partners I think but I could be wrong but I think there is a far larger market for a cute feminine girl who still has boy bits down there compared to a complete m2f

what do you think ?

rainbow kirby

Carl.Gustav wrote: »

Do most m2f want to go the whole way and get the snip, in terms of sexual partners I think but I could be wrong but I think there is a far larger market for a cute feminine girl who still has boy bits down there compared to a complete m2f

what do you think ?

"Market" isn't the motivation behind transitioning for the vast majority of trans women.

Carl.Gustav

rainbow kirby wrote: »

"Market" isn't the motivation behind transitioning for the vast majority of trans women.

I know thats a horrible term and probably inappropriate, but in terms of long term happiness isn't there a balance between comfort in your own body and chances of a partner

Eebs

Carl.Gustav wrote: »

I know thats a horrible term and probably inappropriate, but in terms of long term happiness isn't there a balance between comfort in your own body and chances of a partner

You know what, this response isn't going to be kind and it's because mostly of reason 1.

1) You're in the wrong thread. Kindly direct your comments where they're appropriate.

2) You clearly know nothing about 'finding sexual partners as a trans person' since you clearly aren't one and aren't a partner of a trans person. Take a second and think about what you're really asking and what's implied in that. Your wording is ALL wrong.

Example A:
Complete. There is nothing that makes one 'complete', 'done', 'finished' or 'real'. No ammount of surgery makes one 'complete'.

Example B:
You are assuming that trans women would alter their life because of someone elses desires. Would you suggest your sister drastically alter her life so that people will find her more attractive? Like, maybe she should be become a nurse because a lot of people (I think but I may be wrong) have a fetish for the uniform?!


There are some CRAZY* people who find us attractive, for a whole variety of reasons, who maybe 'bits' don't matter to or .. shock and horror.. maybe they even think a trans persons bits are attractive.

You know, being fetishised for something isn't really a turn on. Being fetishised for a trait you don't like is a whole heap worse and a lot of trans women don't like their original configuration. Some are more than happy with what they've got but maybe they want to be seen as more than just the sum of their body parts?! Maybe they'd like people to pay attention to whats between their ears instead of between their legs.

Lastly, there is no 'balance' between your own personal satisfaction and 'getting a partner'. If you're ****ing miserable then you're miserable. Transition isn't a 'compromise' you can just decide to put off because you want to bag a hot doctor type.

There is SO much wrong with your comments it hurts me. The very fact that you accept that and then still plough ahead with your very ill thought out question baffles me.

Buy a clue. Try think for 5 seconds of how serious transition might be to someone. Try imagine that there are people out there who aren't obsessed with a person being trans or with genitals.

I know I'm harsh but I don't think this thread is relevant for this line of questioning.

*Intense sarcasm

Carl.Gustav

Eebs wrote: »

You know what, this response isn't going to be kind

points taken however I think maybe you are being a little bit over the top

Eebs wrote: »

Would you suggest your sister drastically alter her life so that people will find her more attractive? Like, maybe she should be become a nurse because a lot of people (I think but I may be wrong) have a fetish for the uniform?!

I wouldn't suggest she become a nurse but I would she dress up as one if her bf liked it, people change themselves in so many ways to attract partners, I don't see anything wrong in that, everything from hair to makeup to breast implants to working out for hours in the gym to become big.

however no offense intended, I shall exit thread stage left
<

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Annasopra

Carl.Gustav wrote: »

points taken however I think maybe you are being a little bit over the top

I wouldn't suggest she become a nurse but I would she dress up as one if her bf liked it, people change themselves in so many ways to attract partners, I don't see anything wrong in that, everything from hair to makeup to breast implants to working out for hours in the gym to become big.

however no offense intended, I shall exit thread stage left
<

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I don't think Eebs was over the top at all - I'm not trans but I find some of your questions and assumptions quite offensive

Freiheit

I find the concept of a 'market place' , regardless of whose involved very offensive and frankly extremely misognynistic. Show's how a significant pecentage of men, including Gustav view women, as sex objects, nothing more, not as people. He should be stamped with a 'women beware sign', akin to those smoking forbidden signs.

Links234

Carl.Gustav wrote: »

Do most m2f want to go the whole way and get the snip, in terms of sexual partners I think but I could be wrong but I think there is a far larger market for a cute feminine girl who still has boy bits down there compared to a complete m2f

what do you think ?

hey Carl, I don't think people should be afraid to ask questions, so I'm not going to tell you to get out of this thread and I'd still invite you to ask more questions, but some of what you are saying is quite offensive, and you need to understand that and try to be a little more sensitive.

First of all referring to genital surgery as "the snip" is offensive, because it's suggesting that a trans woman is getting something amputated, that her genitals are being removed. It's assuming that a transsexual woman is being defined by a lack of genitalia and that's quite offensive, the surgery is to reform the sexual organ so that the woman has a functional vagina.

you also say "complete" m2f, which I think most people here wouldn't agree with it and would find offensive. a transsexual woman is still a woman regardless of surgical status. some women are comfortable enough with their genitalia that they don't want/need surgery, some are not, but they are not any more or any less female because of it.

but no matter what, potential partners would not EVER be more important than that. it's quite offensive that you think possible sexual interest could ever trump how a person feels about their own body.

Carl.Gustav wrote: »

I wouldn't suggest she become a nurse but I would she dress up as one if her bf liked it, people change themselves in so many ways to attract partners, I don't see anything wrong in that, everything from hair to makeup to breast implants to working out for hours in the gym to become big.

yeah people might alter their appearance to be more attractive, but there's a HUGE difference between changing your hairstyle and expecting a woman to keep something she's extremely unhappy about. all of those examples you make would also be a great benefit to the person themselves, you can feel really good about a new hairstyle, or working out in the gym will make you feel good about yourself, these can all be positive things (I don't like the idea of breast implants and don't ever plan to get them myself, but there's no doubt lots of women found they are a great boost to their own self confidence and make them more comfortable with their own body image).

you are suggesting that a woman should keep something that she feels very bad about, that makes her very uncomfortable, that negatively impacts her body image. you expect that she should be happy about this because it might get her more potential partners? can you see how that's quite offensive?

you made it clear you're a man earlier, so lets discuss a hypothetical situation. imagine you could get 10 times the potential partners that you currently get, if you transition to female and get genital surgery, would you do it?

deirdre_dub

Carl.Gustav wrote: »

in terms of long term happiness isn't there a balance between comfort in your own body and chances of a partner

There comes a level of discomfort in your body which, if you reach it, makes your chances of getting a partner ZERO.

I've had such a level of discomfort - I'm 41 years old, and I've had ZERO partners.

To summarise - my comfort is more important than your pleasure.

I think there is a far larger market for a cute feminine girl who still has boy bits down there compared to a complete m2f

You may be right - I've come across quite a large number of men who are attracted to the kinkiness of someone with two sets of sexual characteristics. Guess how attracted I am to those men?

Sheesh.

Louisevb

Originally Posted by Carl.Gustav
Do most m2f want to go the whole way and get the snip, in terms of sexual partners I think but I could be wrong but I think there is a far larger market for a cute feminine girl who still has boy bits down there compared to a complete m2f

Our friend here Carl has hit the nail on the head however unintentional.
His attitude is typical of most male attitudes to females who are transgendered and also of men in general to natal women. This is something that all of those m2fs posting here will come across. Women are seen by many men as "meat" Thankfully they are not all like that but there are a large number. The ones who are not are generally married and the rest because of this attitude may never be..It's a state of mind dating back to Neanderthal man. Natural selection is in process and is alive and well, Darwin would be proud.


As regards the rest of this thread, I wouldn't dwell too much on looks. I think that is unhealthy. Focus on how you feel and don't try and fit into a stereotype role. For most people looking well is important but don't beat yourself up if you cannot look like Cheryl Cole. All women and men for that matter are not clones except for Jedward. We all have different bodies, heights, looks and shape. Be who you are and enjoy your transition to the real you. Confidence is important and that comes with being comfortable in your own skin, and it does improve as you settle into your adopted gender.

If you want to see the problems encountered around the world by others look at http://www.tranniehaven.com/Tranniehavenmainpage.html

If you haven't filled in the survey on the same page please do... It's the first detailed survey on transgender needs in Ireland by a qualified statistician and is extremely useful and completely anonymous.

Eebs

Carl.Gustav wrote: »

points taken however I think maybe you are being a little bit over the top

I wouldn't suggest she become a nurse but I would she dress up as one if her bf liked it, people change themselves in so many ways to attract partners, I don't see anything wrong in that, everything from hair to makeup to breast implants to working out for hours in the gym to become big.

and that's what we call misogyny.

Eebs

This thread is for asking questions about / regarding / to trans people on the board. If you've got a question you think might be stupid or not PC then this is where to ask it.

Note: This thread doesn't give you free reign to say whatever you want unchallenged. If you say something here people don't like then they're going to call you on it. The purpose of this thread is to keep these conversations out of other threads.

So with that in mind here are a few videos of some of the typical questions that people ask trans people.

http://www.t-vox.org/index.php?title=Trans_101

baby and crumble

Ok, I know this may be slightly off topic, but I started watching that 1st video and by about 2 minutes in I wanted to slap that woman extremely hard in the face. She is so condescending I can't even explain it. People ask stupid questions- it's not always out of spite. Don't turn around and treat them like a piece of dirt because they ask something YOU think is stupid. :mad:

Eebs

I'm going to change the video and add a more useful link. The video is pretty snarky and I don't want the thread to become about that.

baby and crumble

Yeah, I think that might be good.

deirdre_dub

Some time ago, I started our own boards.ie "Trans 101" here -

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055923166&page=2

So it might be worth looking at that before posting your questions here.

DS333

I have a question. I apologize if it sounds stupid but it is something that struck me after I joined boards.ie and began reading messages from different threads.

The word transgender is new to me. I presume it's used as a general term.

Is the term transvestite still in use? As far as I know it refers to a man who periodically dresses up in female clothes. Is that right or am I still living in the Stone Age?

What I didn't know was that people I would call transvestite have sex with women. Is that the case or have I picked it up wrong? Do their sexual partners know they are transvestites or not?

Are there straight, gay and bisexual transvestites?

If this term is no longer in use, I apologize profusely.

And what is the difference between a transvestite and a drag queen?

God, but I'm ignorant.:o

I'd like to know so as not to put my hoof in it if I meet someone who is a transvestite.

L.Jenkins

I suppose a transvestite can be a person from either gender, who would dress up for purely sexual reasons. I can't imagine there is a preference for sexuality either.

Drag Kings and Queens do so for entertainment purposes. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Links234

DS333 wrote: »

I have a question. I apologize if it sounds stupid but it is something that struck me after I joined boards.ie and began reading messages from different threads.

The word transgender is new to me. I presume it's used as a general term.

Is the term transvestite still in use? As far as I know it refers to a man who periodically dresses up in female clothes. Is that right or am I still living in the Stone Age?

What I didn't know was that people I would call transvestite have sex with women. Is that the case or have I picked it up wrong? Do their sexual partners know they are transvestites or not?

Are there straight, gay and bisexual transvestites?

If this term is no longer in use, I apologize profusely.

And what is the difference between a transvestite and a drag queen?

God, but I'm ignorant.:o

I'd like to know so as not to put my hoof in it if I meet someone who is a transvestite.

Hey DS333, don't worry it doesn't sound stupid

Yeah, 'transgender' is a general term which includes but is not limited to people who are transsexual, gender-queer, transvestite or cross dresser, androgyne.

Transvestite is still in use, but I know that some just prefer cross-dresser. As far as I know, most cross dressers are straight, yes. I have one male friend who is a cross dresser, and he's straight, his girlfriends have known he likes to dress up. I think that some people know their partners cross dress, but some don't, as they might be hiding it or ashamed of it.

and sure, there's gay, straight and bisexual transvestites or cross dressers.

the difference between them and drag artists is that drag is a performance, it's entertainment. this is an example of drag, Derrick Barry performing as Lady Gaga. or on TV Barry Humphries as Dame Edna would be drag.

hope that helps, and if you've got any more questions, feel free to ask.

PS. I would strongly disagree with Itsthatmanagain about transvestites being someone who dresses up for "purely sexual reasons" because I think the reasons can be many and varied and not related to fetishism, though some people do dress for that reason.

deirdre_dub

DS333 wrote: »

The word transgender is new to me. I presume it's used as a general term.

Unfortunately terminology is a bit of a sore point with some trans people.

What I see emerging is that transgender is going to be used to refer to people who transition (i.e. people currently referred to as "transsexual" - which is a term that is falling out of favour, because being "transsexual" has nothing whatsoever to do with anything sexual!).

The "generic" term I see emerging is "trans*".

As for "cross-dresser" - I see that emerging as the term to refer to people who dress for sexual reasons. (Yes, as far as I can see, most TVs do not dress for sexual reasons as such - most seem to dress primarily because they have gender identity issues, though their issues aren't so strong as to drive them towards transition.).

Is the term transvestite still in use? As far as I know it refers to a man who periodically dresses up in female clothes. Is that right or am I still living in the Stone Age?

You are right. I have a number of TV friends who seem quite happy to be referred to as such.

What I didn't know was that people I would call transvestite have sex with women. Is that the case or have I picked it up wrong? Do their sexual partners know they are transvestites or not?

Some do, some don't. It depends on how strong the relationship is and/or how strong the partners prejudices are.

Are there straight, gay and bisexual transvestites?

Being trans has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with sexual orientation. So you have straight trans people, bisexual trans people, and gay trans people. And that applies across all the different "types" of trans people.

And what is the difference between a transvestite and a drag queen?

Very very good question! A drag queen seems to refer to a transvestite who is involved in entertainment. However, I suspect that there are some TVs who dress because they have gender identity issues, and others who dress because they wish to hold up a light to the world's attitudes towards gender. In other words, I think there are "non-performing drag queens" - i.e. TVs who are "motivated" by the need to hold up that light.

God, but I'm ignorant.:o

So was I, until I discovered I was trans myself!!!

I'd like to know so as not to put my hoof in it if I meet someone who is a transvestite.

Let me give you one important rule - never ever refer to anyone using a term that they haven't used to refer to themselves! Not only does that go for the terms mentioned above, it also goes for things like gender pronouns etc.

Chuchoter

This is a question I should probably really know the answer to:o, but you know drag kings and queens, what pronoun applies? I mean do they have any resonance with the gender they are preforming as or is it just a performance? Because I hear people referring to drag queens as she even though they live the rest of their life as a man, so how does that work?

deirdre_dub

crayolastereo wrote: »

This is a question I should probably really know the answer to:o, but you know drag kings and queens, what pronoun applies? I mean do they have any resonance with the gender they are preforming as or is it just a performance? Because I hear people referring to drag queens as she even though they live the rest of their life as a man, so how does that work?

You ALWAYS refer to someone in the gender they tell you they are - not in the gender you think is "most appropriate". To do otherwise is VERY disrespectful.

So drag queens are "she" because THAT IS WHAT THEY SAY THEY ARE. My guess as for what goes on in their head/soul that makes them call themselves "she" is as good as your guess.

Chuchoter

But what if I don't know them and they appear to go by both?

Eebs

crayolastereo wrote: »

But what if I don't know them and they appear to go by both?

Well maybe they don't care either way. Most drag queens I know are really relaxed about the whole pronoun affair and are happy about being called whatever but that said, some really aren't ok with 'she' out of drag. So just play it by year and ask if you can.

hare05

crayolastereo wrote: »

But what if I don't know them and they appear to go by both?

I was talking to Cat McIlroy recently and he prefers just swapping pronouns on a random basis. She's really cool to talk to once you get used to the swapping.

deirdre_dub

crayolastereo wrote: »

But what if I don't know them and they appear to go by both?

If they appear to go by both, then that might just be their identity - not everyone identifies as one-or-the-other. However, a damn good rule of thumb is that if their dress is "feminine", then they are trying to tell you to call them "she" and "her". If their dress is "masculine", then "he" and "him" are probably appropriate.

Here's the thing - us trans people are fully aware of the attitudes towards gender of the society that we live in. We are not stupid. We are aware that it can be difficult for someone who knew us as our birth gender (or, in the case of performing drag artists, our primary gender or whatever) to get used to the new gender pronouns. I recently had the experience of presenting Deirdre for the first time to someone who only ever knew the male me. His response was "oh wow - you look great - it really suits you - good man!". Did I take offense? No - of course not! I responded with "good girl!" and a smile, and he immediately corrected his response.

When I'm out with my TV friends, I use whatever gender pronouns are appropriate to the way they are dressed. If they are in male attire, I use male pronouns, and if they are in female attire, I use female pronouns. Except, that is, if we are out for the night and on the "scene" - in which case, I always use female pronouns, regardless of how they are dressed. But that is because I know them - if you don't know them, then, frankly, I don't think they have the right to take offense if you use male pronouns while they are presenting in male attire! Having said that, if you did use male pronouns, and they politely asked you to switch, then that is a different matter.

deirdre_dub

hare05 wrote: »

I was talking to Cat McIlroy recently and he prefers just swapping pronouns on a random basis. She's really cool to talk to once you get used to the swapping.

I know another F2M who has changed his name to a male name, doesn't take hormones, hasn't made any permanent changes to his body, takes offense to being called a girl, yet sometimes wears skirts!

Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

And, like Cat McIlroy, he's really cool to talk to. He'll give you a chance to get used to his gender identity, but, like the rest of us, he just wants to be respected.

azezil

We hear a lot of news and indeed see threads here about men becoming women but not many about women becoming men. Can the same be said of the Trans* community in general, are there less Trans* female to male people?

deirdre_dub

azezil wrote: »

We hear a lot of news and indeed see threads here about men becoming women but not many about women becoming men. Can the same be said of the Trans* community in general, are there less Trans* female to male people?

Reasons why there seem to be fewer F2M than M2F trans people -

1. A patriarchical society is going to find it harder to understand M2F than F2M, hence the former will have more attention brought to bear on it

2. There are a significant number of men who have a specific sexual interest in trans women - hence even more attention

3. Testosterone has a greater impact on genetic women's bodies than estrogen has on genetic men's bodies. So F2M transgendered people quickly find that they usually blend in to society quite a bit easier than M2F transgendered people. Hence M2F transgendered people are more likely to remain a part of the trans community post-transition

So, yes, F2M are less visible, but I don't think that is because there are fewer of them.

Louisevb

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Reasons why there seem to be fewer F2M than M2F trans people -

1. A patriarchical society is going to find it harder to understand M2F than F2M, hence the former will have more attention brought to bear on it

2. There are a significant number of men who have a specific sexual interest in trans women - hence even more attention

3. Testosterone has a greater impact on genetic women's bodies than estrogen has on genetic men's bodies. So F2M transgendered people quickly find that they usually blend in to society quite a bit easier than M2F transgendered people. Hence M2F transgendered people are more likely to remain a part of the trans community post-transition

So, yes, F2M are less visible, but I don't think that is because there are fewer of them.

Deirdre.. Maybe you could tell me where you are getting this information highlighted in blue? I haven't seen any references to this aspect of hormone treatment.
In point number 2 surely if there were more f2m the same thing would apply in reverse? It just maybe happens that f2m trans people tend to go the butch lesbian route and that is enough.

hare05

Louisevb wrote: »

Deirdre.. Maybe you could tell me where you are getting this information highlighted in blue? I haven't seen any references to this aspect of hormone treatment.
In point number 2 surely if there were more f2m the same thing would apply in reverse? It just maybe happens that f2m trans people tend to go the butch lesbian route and that is enough.

Testosterone causes a lit of changes, many of which are semi-permanent to permanent. The basic human structure is actually quite feminine, and other than hip and bust development, women see no effects from estrogen that can't be seen in men during normal development. Testosterone causes much more drastic changes, often to the skeletal structure. Changes such as increased muscle mass, broadening of the shoulders, development of the Adams Apple, and body hair.

Effectively, men are more heavily changed from the human base by hormones than women are. This makes reversal easier for women, discounting hips and bust.

By the way, not being seen as butch lesbians is a huge challenge for ftms. It causes people to not take their transition seriously. Please don't try to discount this no matter how 'convenient' a fallback option it appears.

Louisevb

Sorry I'm not quite sure what you are saying here, but from what I think you mean I don't get the bit about testosterone being more effective in f2m than estrogen in m2f.
Hormones have a different effect in different people depending on family history and genes etc. I have never read of any research that backs up this hypothesis. Once hormones are stopped the effects are not permanent. Example. My mother and my paternal grandmother had a very small bust an a cup. My maternal grandmother on the other hand was quite well endowed and I expected to be much like my mother but in fact have taken after my maternal grandmother. I'm now a C going on D... Hormone effects cannot be judged in a uniform manner.

hare05

Louisevb wrote: »

Sorry I'm not quite sure what you are saying here, but from what I think you mean I don't get the bit about testosterone being more effective in f2m than estrogen in m2f.
Hormones have a different effect in different people depending on family history and genes etc. I have never read of any research that backs up this hypothesis. Once hormones are stopped the effects are not permanent. Example. My mother and my paternal grandmother had a very small bust an a cup. My maternal grandmother on the other hand was quite well endowed and I expected to be much like my mother but in fact have taken after my maternal grandmother. I'm now a C going on D... Hormone effects cannot be judged in a uniform manner.

Sorry if I wasn't clear...

It's not that any hormone can be described as more 'effective' than any other, a balance is required.

But...

The changes brought on by Testosterone are simply harder to reverse, as they are less focused on fat redistribution and more focused on things like bone mass (and thus skeletal structure). Changes that will not reverse once the supply is cut off.

Estrogen, however, causes less changes to the bones and more to the surrounding tissue.

It's not that E isn't as strong a hormone. It's just that the changes that it makes can be more effectively masked during a transperson's 'second' puberty. (Yet again, not counting bust and hips).

An FtM will gain darker body hair, increased muscle mass and bone density, possible growth to the shoulders and overall height. Once these changes occur, just like any other man, they can't be effectively reduced or reversed by current chemical or biological products, and no surgical procedures exist to cater to these traits as the anatomy of the shoulder is too complex to modify, and attempting to cause bone atrophy (to reduce height) is just plain dangerous.

So, to summarize (I've always wanted to say that lol), testosterone causes more permanent changes to the base human skeletal structure, and thus it's harder to alter an adult male body to resemble an adult female body.

However, although FtMs can present extremely well after hormone treatments, they get a much harder time when it comes to the surgical aspects (if they choose reassignment) than we would. It's just harder to create something without donor material than it is to create something with donor material. (Principal reason I haven't chopped the damn thing off yet.)

deirdre_dub

Louisevb wrote: »

Deirdre.. Maybe you could tell me where you are getting this information highlighted in blue? I haven't seen any references to this aspect of hormone treatment.

Fair point - my statement wasn't based on any reading of the literature - it was based on the simple observation that the trans men I've met usually look significantly better than the trans women.

In point number 2 surely if there were more f2m the same thing would apply in reverse? It just maybe happens that f2m trans people tend to go the butch lesbian route and that is enough.

I don't doubt that there are also a significant number of people who have a specific sexual interest in trans men. My point is that women, trans or otherwise, are more publically sexualised than men, trans or otherwise. That public sexualisation means that trans women are going to end up more visible than trans men.