Trans* Questions

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SugarHigh wrote: »

That's incredible. How did he lose so much muscle mass?

I know HRT would make it hard to gain muscle but I didn't think it would reduce what you already have so quickly.

He obviously stopped working out but you still wouldn't lose it that quick, he must have really been starving himself.

SHE! You do not refer to a young woman as "he" under any circumstance!

anyway, how she lost muscle mass so quickly, HRT doesn't just make it hard to gain muscle, there's differences in musculature between men and women and that's defined a lot by hormones. she'd probably lose muscle even if she continued to work out.

but if you look at the video, it's a one year timeline from the point where she started hormones. so the video was posted in november 10, we can say she started in nov 09, but the first few pics we're told are from some time in spring 09, so she probably stopped working out a few months before she started hormones.

deirdre_dub

SugarHigh wrote: »

That's incredible. How did she lose so much muscle mass?

I know HRT would make it hard to gain muscle but I didn't think it would reduce what you already have so quickly.

She obviously stopped working out but you still wouldn't lose it that quick, she must have really been starving herself.

I'm going to presume that you identify as male - how would you like it if I insisted that because of some freak of nature thing that you have no control over, you are actually female, and I'm not going to entertain your assertions that you are male. You are a girl - get over yourself!

I know that you've already twice been censured for calling her "him" - it is such a horrible thing that you've done that I cannot but add my voice to the chorus. You will note that I've taken the liberty of changing the pronouns in what I've quoted of your post above.

Now, to answer your question. HRT reduces muscle mass quite quickly. I've been on HRT for 14 months, I've never worked out either before I started on HRT or since, and I've noticed that everything has gotten heavier!!!

Louisevb

Look I don't want you getting into a tizzy about this, and what I'm saying is just an observation in the same way as I would observe transgender people who are happy being androgynous or others who are GID but do not go for full surgery for whatever reason.
I've been around long enough not to put people into politically correct boxes or to stereotype people.

What I'm saying is that with a much more open acceptance of transgenderism I think there will be a lot more f2m transgender people around who before would have decided to remain as lesbian, in the butch sense.

Annasopra

Louisevb wrote: »

Look I don't want you getting into a tizzy about this, and what I'm saying is just an observation in the same way as I would observe transgender people who are happy being androgynous or others who are GID but do not go for full surgery for whatever reason.
I've been around long enough not to put people into politically correct boxes or to stereotype people.

What I'm saying is that with a much more open acceptance of transgenderism I think there will be a lot more f2m transgender people around who before would have decided to remain as lesbian, in the butch sense.

Jaysus Louise - seriously? I think if I was a F2M I would be getting in a tizzy at statements like that - To me what you are saying does sound offensive

Louisevb

Johnny
What I'm saying is not meant to be in any way offensive, and i apologise if this is seen as offensive. It's more of an observation on being around a long time. For years gays and lesbians never came out, especially in rural Ireland. They lived a single or shared existence with a same sex "partner" because of societies nonacceptance. What I'm saying is that perhaps many f2m trans people have been doing the same thing in a lesbian relationship and it's only now when m2f trans people are more visible that those same f2m trans people are having the courage to come out and be themselves.
Gender expression like sexuality is not set in stone...it can move

Eebs

Louisevb wrote: »

Johnny
What I'm saying is not meant to be in any way offensive, and i apologise if this is seen as offensive. It's more of an observation on being around a long time. For years gays and lesbians never came out, especially in rural Ireland. They lived a single or shared existence with a same sex "partner" because of societies nonacceptance. What I'm saying is that perhaps many f2m trans people have been doing the same thing in a lesbian relationship and it's only now when m2f trans people are more visible that those same f2m trans people are having the courage to come out and be themselves.
Gender expression like sexuality is not set in stone...it can move

Frankly it's just a flippant statement built on nothing that erases both butch women's gender identity and FTMs gender identity in one sweeping blow.

So so many FTMs I know aren't butch. Just like so many MTFs I know aren't super girly, I'd go as far as to almost call them 'tom boys' (something my friend doesn't take offense to, to be clear).
Many butch women are happy with their gender identity as WOMEN, not as something in between, not as a compromise but they're comfortable with their gender and also who they are as a butch lesbian. They don't want to be men. It's a really horrible stereotype they always have to refute to people, it coming from a trans person just makes it 10 times worse.

You've got it so completely wrong I find it hard to fathom.
Butch women are women. FTMs are men who people thought were women at some point and aren't necessarily manly, butch or lesbian. Your statement assumes all of that.

Why aren't their more FTMs visibly? Maybe they're not interesting in this kind of bickering. Maybe they're all around but people just assume they're bio guys while people always tend to examine and criticize the appearance of a woman.

Annasopra

What I'm saying is that perhaps many f2m trans people have been doing the same thing in a lesbian relationship and it's only now when m2f trans people are more visible that those same f2m trans people are having the courage to come out and be themselves.

Perhaps this is true - I personally would not have thought so at all - do you know many? or is this just an assumption?



edit* and Louise I know that you as a person do not in any way intend to be offensive

deirdre_dub

Louisevb wrote: »

What I'm saying is that perhaps many f2m trans people have been doing the same thing in a lesbian relationship and it's only now when m2f trans people are more visible that those same f2m trans people are having the courage to come out and be themselves.

Are there trans men who present themselves as butch lesbians? I don't doubt it - people will do all sorts of "strange" things before they figure themselves out. There are probably even butch lesbians who present themselves as non-transitioning trans men!

But I don't buy your "courage" theory. It is, in general, by my observations, that bit easier for genetic women to present as men than it is for most genetic men to present as women, even before they start on hormones. And, if I'm not mistaken, one of the very first Irish trans people to transition was an F2M?

Louisevb

Thanks for that Johnny.

Deirdre, the courage bit has to be taken in the context of living in a small village in rural Ireland. That is where I'm thinking of. It's these people who had no internet access and had no access to counselors etc. who have been forced (like many gay people, around sexuality ) to deny their gender expression if they even understood it themselves
For years in many countries gender expression has been a moving feast depending on how liberal society is in general. I have for a long time through discussions with people I've met, realised that depending on circumstances both open same sex attraction and open displays of gender identity have been stifled in Irish society particularly in rural Ireland where conservative attitudes have been the norm.

Coming from that perspective, and I have spoken to many same sex couples from a rural background, my impression is that some people have been able to sit within a lesbian relationship because to come out as openly transgender would not have the same acceptance in their view. There would have been acceptance of say two women sharing as "friends" In the same way many transgender people remain in heterosexual relationships simply because coming out would ruin a marriage , a livelyhood and ostracise them from the rest of society. My gut feeling as to why there are more m2fs who are visible and why only now we are seeing more f2m trans people coming out stems from this feeling. Also the Foy case and the publicity surrounding it has encouraged a lot more trans people to become visible which can only be good for society in general. The age group I'm referring to here would be the older generation in general because younger people don't have the same restraints.

We all make deliberate choices and sometimes it isn't obvious to the outsider looking in why or how we remain where we sit. I'm sorry if this view has offended anyone but from the observations I have made over the last number of years talking to couples from every walk of life and areas of Ireland when I'm doing what I do within the voluntary sector this is the conclusion I have come to.

Eebs

It's not just offensive, it's not really backed up. It's also a bad stereotype about butch WOMEN and also sort of downplays transMENS experiences by equating to them of a butch womens. Basically that living as a butch woman is almost like living as a man so really they don't always bother transitioning is a pretty flawed argument on the whole to be making and if I were making it in reverse people would be pissed.


Some peoples genders are more complex, I'm not talking about that, we're discussing transition and people who want to transition but Louise says don't because of their situation so 'settle' with being butch.

At the end of the day...

Butch lesbian identity /= male or transgender identity.


Look, we're going to disagree, I think flaunting such an incorrect opinion is harmfull to both lesbian and trans communities. Because it misconstrues butch identity and it misconstrues trans identity. TOTALLY. MY identity was never a butch woman and I feel angry that someone would tell me that in different circumstances I would 'settle' for being a butch lesbian.

I've made my point, it's based on loads of experience too, lots of it personal, you're not listening, I'm sick of explaining. Until we get the similar study that was done in Sweden (If I'm correct on countries) that shows FTM numbers are similar to that of MTFs we're all out of hard facts.

Annasopra

I'm still with Eebs on this - you've presented us with a bit of a theory - but nothing whatsoever to back up the theory. What if I said something like

'Many camp men in gay relationships are really transwomen but they just couldn't admit it because they lived in Rural Ireland and this is just a hunch I have'?

Louisevb

Guys
Thanks for your input....As you say there are no hard facts to back up what I'm saying but equally there are no hard facts to disprove it either, simply because there have been no in depth studies done...If you take a transgendered woman now who has fully transitioned and is living a full filling life in 2010 and compare that with someone who is obviously transgendered 60 years ago but is living in a marriage with two children and is male because 1/ No one identified that being transgendered is a clinical condition 2/ There was no recognised treatment path then... They had to accept their condition and live with it... I met an elderly man the other day and when I say elderly he was over 70 and he was struggling with his dressing issues, which he had been doing since he was around 7 years of age.
Now can you tell me if he is unique because I don't think so? So therefore there have to be women in the same situation who have had to keep their true gender identity secret...

LegacyUser

Hi all - Someone very close to me told me that they think they may be trans - Obviously I support them in every way I can, and I'm looking for some info as to what to expect.

I'm just wondering that the "usual" (I realise it may different for everyone) process is in Ireland from this stage (living as the wrong gender) up to HRT (if they decide to transition) - just a quick overview would be great.

L.Jenkins

Well just read around the threads here, you might find some concerns and experiences provided by some of our trans members already. Check out the publications section on www.teni.ie aswell for further information.

If your family member or friend has only come out to you and suspects they are trans, then they may not have all the answers yet, but remember that your support is invaluable to them.

As for the process of transitioning from one gender to the other, the process can differ from one person to the other. For the person close to you, they should go see a GP and discuss the issue at hand. From there, they would most likely be refered to local Psychiatric services who will evaluate them and make further referrals to a specialist Psychiatrist who operates in Dublin. I am guessing at how things will pan out with the Endocrinologist.

I'll cut straight to it and describe my situation. I spoke with my GP who referred me to local Psychiatric services and from there I was referred to Dr. James Lucey in Dublin with an evaluation provided by local services here in Athlone. After some discussion with Dr Lucey in Dublin, he diagnosed my with Gender Identity Disorder (GID). At the end of the session, he wrote up his referral letter to my local services for referral to an Endocrinologist, Dr. O' Shay operating in Loughlinstown, Dublin.

At the moment, I am waiting to see the Endocrinologist and in my first appointment, I will most likely receive a health check up long before being provided any hormones and from there I will be monitored along with my hormone intake.

My experience is unique as are many experiences here on boards. See further experiences for further information as this is my individual experience so far and may not be true of others.

deirdre_dub

Inforequired wrote: »

I'm just wondering that the "usual" (I realise it may different for everyone) process is in Ireland from this stage (living as the wrong gender) up to HRT (if they decide to transition) - just a quick overview would be great.

Is your friend employed - would they mind spending maybe EUR 200 or maybe more on getting diagnosed?

If they would not mind, then make an appointment with Dr. James Kelly. He's a clinical psychologist, and can make a diagnosis with a few hourly appointments. Presuming the diagnosis is GID, he'll then refer you on to Loughlinstown Hospital.

Note that Loughlinstown Hospital are sometimes quite slow indeed in dealing with referrals. I'm hearing horror stories of some people waiting many months.

That's the medical side of transition. However, most of transition is social. Is your friend near one of the support groups? If so, then they should probably go along.

baby and crumble

I have a question.

With all the hoo-ha that went on re: the survey (and I'm not opening that thread up again, this is a side question that popped into my head while thinking about it!) and questions asking you to define your gender on a questionaire.

I am a woman, so I tick the woman box. Luckily, I was born in the right body, so that's fine for me. But someone who is in transition, have they not always, for example, been female, just not in the right body for them? I realise I may be oversimplifying.

I would have thought that in these kinds of surveys it would actually be a liberating, a good thing to be able to tick 'female', even if you haven't started transition. You've always been that gender, right, it's just your body doesn't match?

So I guess I'm wondering why is there such opposition to a binary gender system, when most (obviously not all) people can mostly fit into one or the other...

Freiheit

I don't know if there is a great deal of opposition to a binary gender system. But when I took a look at my own gender I realised that a lot of aspects of gender are socially constructed (blue being a boys colour etc). Boys and gilrs are encouraged to be different and I'm not sure how different they are innately. Gender expectations of either gender are capable of being a straightjacket. If you don't want to be bound by that straightjacket then one doesn't have to be.

I don't speak for anyone but myself in the above but after introspection I just realised that gender is a lot more fluid than I had previously supposed. Everyone out there is conforming to a certain degree.

I've no problem with a binary system but it has to be ok for people to identify outside of that if it's how they feel. A friend is a fairly boyish woman, she uses an androgynous name but has no desire to have her gender legally reassigned...she identifies outside the binary...It has to be an option for those who chose to.

That didn't directly answer the question but might help a little maybe

Merry Christmas to all men, women and bigendered Boardsers!

Eebs

zoegh wrote: »

I have a question.

So I guess I'm wondering why is there such opposition to a binary gender system, when most (obviously not all) people can mostly fit into one or the other...

See.. I actually think most people don't fit into it all that easily. I mean, define a man for me. That idea of a 'man' and what a man should be is constantly in flux. In older days he was superior to women, he owned his wife etc. Now the idea of a man is totally different. If you had to pick the perfect example of a man what would he be like (Chuck Norris? :P ). Once you have your image of the ideal man (or woman) how does it compare to you?

I fit pretty happily into the binary mostly but I do think that it should be broadened. I hate to see parents discourage certain activities for boys because they're for girls and vice versa. Do what makes you happy. The binary is part of that pressure not to do those things, or behave in certain ways. I guess that's why people would like to see it more blurry.

Part of ant-gay stuff is very much actually in defense of defined gender roles I think. I have never really had tranny shouted at me, even at my most androgynous, it's always been dyke and fagg0t.

I genuinely believe tight gender roles suck for everyone.
I dunno. Ask Katie: http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/portrait_of_an_adoption/2010/11/anti-bullying-starts-in-first-grade.html

I'm not one of the people who believes in 'smashing the binary' but I do think that allowing ourselves to be open to more gender diversity would honestly lead to more happy people in the world. Kids become aware of gender socialisation at such a young age and get boxed into one or the other, and all the baggage that comes with those expectations early. I'm not sure a strict binary really helps.

L.Jenkins

Eebs wrote: »

I hate to see parents discourage certain activities for boys because they're for girls and vice versa.

I have some relatives that trust the whole gender binary on their kids, but since I'm not a parent, who am I to start lecturing them. I fit the gender binary seeminglessly as a male at the moment and only because if I began to blurr those lines right before my families eyes there would be issues.

Eebs

ItsThatManAgain wrote: »

I have some relatives that trust the whole gender binary on their kids, but since I'm not a parent, who am I to start lecturing them. I fit the gender binary seeminglessly as a male at the moment and only because if I began to blurr those lines right before my families eyes there would be issues.

Thankfully my family are amazing and I've had the discussion with them before about things like this without ever telling them what to do. In general the kids in my family are allowed express themselves whatever way they want. Which is great.

Oh and when/if you transition just you wait, you'll be expected to fit a whole new set of binaries by most people. Whoo!

rainbow kirby

Eebs wrote: »

In general the kids in my family are allowed express themselves whatever way they want. Which is great.

Similar with my family - I have a male 6 year old cousin who just happens to be quite effeminate, and his parents have no problems with it, they have no problem with buying him pink polo shirts and toys that would be traditionally considered as being for girls. He's a lucky kid

Freiheit

I agree with Eebs that I think a lot of homophobia has nothing to do with who we sleep with, it has to do with perceived transgressing of gender boundaries...there's an assumption that feminine = gay (for a man) and masculine = lesbian (for a woman), much homophobia is actually 'gender variance phobia'....

-Oh and when/if you transition just you wait, you'll be expected to fit a whole new set of binaries by most people. Whoo! - sadly true....I hope in time the scope of gender expression will continue to expand so that people can be themselves...and it's only by being true to oneself, that one can be happy and thus mentally and physicaly healthy.

L.Jenkins

Eebs wrote: »

Oh and when/if you transition just you wait, you'll be expected to fit a whole new set of binaries by most people. Whoo!

From society possibly, from family I expect nothing but long running arguments and fights. Next month I can see an entirely different relationship with me and my family that will be shinning example of whats wrong in this world.

Louisevb

Very often if a person has issues with those around them being transgendered then it can boil down to insecurities that they have themselves surrounding their own sexuality etc. I was out with a transgendered friend in Templebar on Thursday night last and we met some lovely guys from the Dublin fire Service on a night out. More rounded and accepting guys you could not meet anywhere, to the point while dancing with the girl this idiot walks over and shouts at them at the top of his voice "that woman is a man" to which the firemen shouted fcuk off you,,, you stupid bo**ics " The place fell apart laughing

LegacyUser

I've a question.

If there is no gender binary, no well defined meaning of "male" and "female", why do we need a concept of "gender" at all? (beyond physical gender, that is)

L.Jenkins

In our limited language it is incredibly hard to define gender. Your question is good, but tough to answer. I wouldnt even know where to start to answer why we do or do not need gender.

From my own ideas (I use the word idea, because you can change an idea), gender is a cultural thing. Almost like job sharing, defining male and female based on sex characteristics and physical function then assigning a function in society based on ability. Men have increased physical strength, so they would be suited to labour intensive provider roles. Women would have the ability to have children, so a care provider role would be suitable. Over time, gender roles have evolved to encompass many things that society expect while keeping to the basic male/female role.

Granted, in the past these lines have become blurred with men staying at home and women becoming sole providers making gender and gender roles much harder to define. Then again, I haven't really defined gender without some hint of misogyny, but modern society hasn't left me much alternative in how I've perceived gender over the last 25 years.

For me gender is like a function in family dynamics. The male or masculine role being a primary provider of all things necessary and the female or feminine role being one of care, comfort and emotional support. These lines can become incredibly blurred when you consider single parent families.

I only hope I didn't offend anyone and someone of greater knowledge on the issue can elaborate. In reference to your use of gender though, gender and sex are in no way related per se. You have male and female (sex), then male and female identity and roles (gender).

Freiheit

I think gender has to exist for classification purposes....labels do make life easier in lots of practical ways. Simple.

Eebs

If there were no gender at all I wouldn't have a word to describe a deep and important part of who I am and my identity. A piece so strong it's led me to change my entire life because of it.

I have no problem with the idea of gender and I believe it exists, I just think it's rather rigid at the moment.

LegacyUser

How does it describe you? How does it contribute to your identity?

Is it purely a social construct, or anything more than that? If so, what exactly?

In a world where people with penises could freely engage in what are seen as "feminine" behaviours, people with vaginas could engage in what are seen as "masculine" behaviours, and people with more ambiguous genitalia would not have to conform to either "masculine" or "feminine" behaviours, would transgenderism exist at all?

Sorry if I seem ignorant or patronising, I'm just curious.

@ItsThatManAgain
I don't think you really answered anything in your post. You more or less just said traditionally men were providers and women were carers, but it's not really like that anymore, which I acknowledge, and it's exactly why I asked the question

L.Jenkins

imdreamingofawhitechristmas wrote: »

@ItsThatManAgain
I don't think you really answered anything in your post. You more or less just said traditionally men were providers and women were carers, but it's not really like that anymore, which I acknowledge, and it's exactly why I asked the question

I kind of gathered that, atleast I tried :P