Prostitution in Ireland.

Mike 1972 · 03-12-2010 03:17PM

MazG wrote: »

I'm wondering where is the evidence that if only prostitution were legal, then it would all be lovely and cosy. Only people who fully choose to charge for sex would become prostitutes, there would be no pimps, no trafficking, no coercion, people would not be objectified etc etc....

There are parts of the sex industry which are legal in most parts of the world. These would include things like lapdancing clubs, large swathes of the advertising industry and arguably any industry/occupation where the majority of staff just happen to be young, attractive and predominantely of a single gender. Are these industries entirely free of exploitication or objectification ? Would there be less or more of such abuses were the industries in question made illegal (assuming this was even practicable).

MazG wrote: »

I'm not aware of it being anything other than a pretty seedy scene in countries where it is legal....

How many of such countries have you been to and how many people did you discuss it with while you were there ?

MazG · 03-12-2010 03:18PM

By regulating the industry properly, hopefully you would shrink the amount of space that exists in the market for trafficked or otherwise coerced women down to a small percentage of what it is today. Law enforcement could then focus specifically on that criminal area. Ideally, it would be eliminated totally - but the world doesn't seem to work like that.

But where is the evidence that this would actually happen? I take your point that a perfect system is never possible in any human sphere. But I have yet to see any evidence that the current system in Ireland (re trafficking/coercion/sexual health etc..) would even be improved by legalisation.

Wolfe Tone · 03-12-2010 03:20PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Hands up who would be happy with their son being a soldier in Afghanistan? Or a coal miner? Or a bin man?

There are plenty of jobs I would not like my children to do. However, when they are adults they will make their own cost/benefit analyses on these things an do what they prefer.

And, as I believe I outlined on an earlier thread, I would personally consider prostitution as a career were that path open to me. It's not. (unless any ladies here....:pac::pac::pac:)

Fcuk me, you would be happy with your daughter being a prostitute?

Id never let that happen.

Millicent · 03-12-2010 03:20PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Will society benifit from prostitution being viewed as "just a job"? I don't think it will. Will play into the sense of instant gratification many people have. Sex is something you pay for.

Define "benefit". You would agree that prostitution is age-old, right? So what's wrong with making it an official avenue, taxing, regulating and safeguarding both the clients and the workers?

And sure, I can definitely see your point about instant gratification but there will always be those people who choose that as an avenue over deeper relationships. Bringing things into the open is not likely to exasperate that by much, if at all.

03-12-2010 03:21PM

MazG wrote: »

I'm wondering where is the evidence that if only prostitution were legal, then it would all be lovely and cosy. Only people who fully choose to charge for sex would become prostitutes, there would be no pimps, no trafficking, no coercion, people would not be objectified etc etc...

There would, of course, still be problems. The same way there are still smuggled cigarettes even though it's legal. What it would mean is that people who do choose to do it would be protected. And that resources could be dedicated to fight traffickers etc.

MazG wrote: »

I'm not aware of it being anything other than a pretty seedy scene in countries where it is legal

Examples? In the Netherlands, it has removed many of the problems associated with prostitution. "Seediness" is a perception issue, which is completely irrelevant

MazG wrote: »

Also, I'm not particularly comfortable with the notion that somehow people deserve sexual gratification and are entitled to it.

No-one said that. What they are saying is that if someone is willing to receive payment to provide it, they should be allowed do so.

MazG wrote: »

So yeah, if someone I knew had sex with a prostitute, I'd have a pretty low opinion of them. And to those of you who think that is a judgemental attitude: Yes, it is.

And again, I'd have a pretty low opinion of anyone who follows reality TV. Personal opinions are irrelevant

Monty Burnz · 03-12-2010 03:21PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Fcuk me, you would be happy with your daughter being a prostitute?

Id never let that happen.

I suggest you read my post. It will help you when you come to answer it. :rolleyes:

Mike 1972 · 03-12-2010 03:22PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Id never let that happen.

Are you planning on taking her at knifepoint and locking her up for most of her adult life ?

Monty Burnz · 03-12-2010 03:24PM

MazG wrote: »

But where is the evidence that this would actually happen? I take your point that a perfect system is never possible in any human sphere. But I have yet to see any evidence that the current system in Ireland (re trafficking/coercion/sexual health etc..) would even be improved by legalisation.

Well you could look at the experience in Australia or Germany or Nevada/Arizona (can never remember which) where brothels are properly organised and regulated.

I know you don't really mean this, but you are saying that the situation we have is the best possible one?

Wolfe Tone · 03-12-2010 03:24PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I suggest you read my post. It will help you when you come to answer it. :rolleyes:

I did read it, dont be condescending.

Answer me this, if a daughter of yours said she wanted to be a prostitute what would you do or say?

MazG · 03-12-2010 03:25PM

Millicent wrote: »

I didn't say anyone deserved sexual gratification.

I'm also not so naive that I think it would be all lovely and cosy for the people involved. A lot of that though pertains to the prevailing attitudes of people towards sexuality. Perhaps not in this generation but if prostitution was widely legalised and not dismissed as seedy or otherwise and those attitudes were allowed to die out, it is not unthinkable that working as a prostitute would be held in any different regard as being a masseuse or something along the same lines.

Well I wasn't attacking your post directly Millicent, but there does appear to be an attitude by some on this thread that somehow people are entitled to sexual gratification and that if they cannot attain this by having a girlfriend/boyfriend/partner/casual encounter then it is ok to pay for it. I simply don't agree.

Your second point may prove to be true in years to come, but it's not something I would like to see in my lifetime!

03-12-2010 03:25PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Hands up who would be happy with their daughter being the prostitute in question? Or a prostitute at all?

What a meaningless argument. I wouldn't be happy with my daughter doing many, many, many legal things. Doesn't mean they should be illegal. And if she explained herself and her reasons for choosing to do so, then who am I to stop her?

Wolfe Tone · 03-12-2010 03:25PM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Are you planning on taking her at knifepoint and locking her up for most of her adult life ?

What would you do?

03-12-2010 03:27PM

MazG wrote: »

Well I wasn't attacking your post directly Millicent, but there does appear to be an attitude by some on this thread that somehow people are entitled to sexual gratification and that if they cannot attain this by having a girlfriend/boyfriend/partner/casual encounter then it is ok to pay for it. I simply don't agree.

No, you're looking at it from the wrong side. The pro-legalisation side are saying that people are entitled to provide sexual gratification in exchange for money if they choose to do so

Wolfe Tone · 03-12-2010 03:28PM

Millicent wrote: »

Define "benefit". You would agree that prostitution is age-old, right? So what's wrong with making it an official avenue, taxing, regulating and safeguarding both the clients and the workers?

And sure, I can definitely see your point about instant gratification but there will always be those people who choose that as an avenue over deeper relationships. Bringing things into the open is not likely to exasperate that by much, if at all.

Raping people is age old, everything is age old.

Prostitution is something I find disgusting. It portrays sex as something which can just be bought. It objectifies women. If we have a society where prostitution is th norm and "acceptable" what sort of effect will that have on normal relationships?

strobe · 03-12-2010 03:29PM

I've yet to see a good well backed up argument against prostitution, in this thread or anywhere else, that didn't boil down to "I find it morally wrong and everybody everywhere should think exactly like me on any moral issue", or "sex is a magic sacred candyfloss expression of love and kittens and anyone having sex for any other reason is a deviant".

Wolfe Tone · 03-12-2010 03:30PM

Laws are often made on moral and policy grounds.

MazG · 03-12-2010 03:31PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Well you could look at the experience in Australia or Germany or Nevada/Arizona (can never remember which) where brothels are properly organised and regulated.

I know you don't really mean this, but you are saying that the situation we have is the best possible one?

Are they though? Are most prostitutes happy with their jobs? Very little coercion or trafficking? I just don't know. All I know is that many people on this thread have claimed that.

I certainly don't agree that the current situation is ideal. I'm just taking exception with the assumption that legalisation would make all the problems go away.

2 stroke · 03-12-2010 03:32PM

When I left school I was encouraged to go for a job in the bank, now everybody looks down on bankers. I'm quite sure there are ladies out there happier to work as prostitutes than they would be cooking, cleaning, serving tables, putting parking tickets on cars, collecting taxes, telesales or unemployed.

Monty Burnz · 03-12-2010 03:33PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I did read it, dont be condescending.

Answer me this, if a daughter of yours said she wanted to be a prostitute what would you do or say?

I'd tell her she's only a silly woman and is not allowed to make choices her father disagrees with. That would also go for how she dresses, who she talks to and who she marries...:)

No - I'd shrug my shoulders and tell her I'd rather she didn't, and only to do it if she was sure and she was doing it for the right reasons.

Pretty much the same speech I'd give my son if he told me he was heading off to fight the Taleban.

Monty Burnz · 03-12-2010 03:35PM

MazG wrote: »

Well I wasn't attacking your post directly Millicent, but there does appear to be an attitude by some on this thread that somehow people are entitled to sexual gratification and that if they cannot attain this by having a girlfriend/boyfriend/partner/casual encounter then it is ok to pay for it. I simply don't agree.

Your second point may prove to be true in years to come, but it's not something I would like to see in my lifetime!

MazG - you think a casual encounter is fine, but a professional agreement is not? I find that bizarre, quite frankly. And you don't address the fact that the options you consider 'fine' may not be possible for some people at all. How are they supposed to deal with their sex drives? Castration?

strobe · 03-12-2010 03:37PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Laws are often made on moral and policy grounds.

Quite, such as making homosexuality and contraception illegal.

Wolfe Tone · 03-12-2010 03:38PM

strobe wrote: »

Quite, such as making homosexuality and contraception illegal.

They are a few examples, but there are many many more.

Millicent · 03-12-2010 03:39PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Raping people is age old, everything is age old.

Prostitution is something I find disgusting. It portrays sex as something which can just be bought. It objectifies women. If we have a society where prostitution is th norm and "acceptable" what sort of effect will that have on normal relationships?

I can see your arguments, seriously. But that is your own particular morality. The essential difference between rape and prostitution is informed consent. Who does it harm? Honestly? And I'm not talking about coerced or desperate people. I'm thinking more of adults who can judge for themselves.

I'd imagine the effect on relationships would be the same as any other temptation. What effect does it have now where it's in the dark and unregulated and people bring venereal diseases home to a spouse?

Wolfe Tone · 03-12-2010 03:41PM

Millicent wrote: »

I can see your arguments, seriously. But that is your own particular morality. The essential difference between rape and prostitution is informed consent. Who does it harm? Honestly? And I'm not talking about coerced or desperate people. I'm thinking more of adults who can judge for themselves.

I'd imagine the effect on relationships would be the same as any other temptation. What effect does it have now where it's in the dark and unregulated and people bring venereal diseases home to a spouse?

I meant with regard to the attitudes to sex within relationships.

And as for rape, I want making a comparison, just demonstrating that just because something has happened for ages doesn't make it right or mean it should be legalized.

Millicent · 03-12-2010 03:42PM

MazG wrote: »

Well I wasn't attacking your post directly Millicent, but there does appear to be an attitude by some on this thread that somehow people are entitled to sexual gratification and that if they cannot attain this by having a girlfriend/boyfriend/partner/casual encounter then it is ok to pay for it. I simply don't agree.

Your second point may prove to be true in years to come, but it's not something I would like to see in my lifetime!

But why wouldn't you? Is it strictly to do with your morals or is something else at play?

Also, I don't really drink (bar the odd glass of champagne or a seasonal alcopop or two). I don't think anyone is entitled to drink but if they want to pay for it, I don't have a problem with it so long as they don't harm anyone when drunk.

RockinRolla · 03-12-2010 03:42PM

I wouldn't pay for sex, personally, but I have absolutely no problems with people who do and I fully support the legalisation of it - it's an act of freedom and in a free society we should be free to choose.

For the people who voted that they'd shun those that did participated in it - you should be put back into your conservative and religious cages, you old bats, go crawl back into the piss hole you came from.

strobe · 03-12-2010 03:43PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

They are a few examples, but there are many many more.

Yes but those two, along with prostitution are (were) laws based solely on a certain antiquated system of morality, can you name one of these many many other laws where no coercion is taking place but they are deemed to be necessary to protect our good lords morality?

Millicent · 03-12-2010 03:45PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I meant with regard to the attitudes to sex within relationships.

And as for rape, I want making a comparison, just demonstrating that just because something has happened for ages doesn't make it right or mean it should be legalized.

A lot of the draw of prostitution is resultant from the current attitudes to sex though. People often want the sort of sexual encounter from a prostitute that they would be too ashamed or disgusted by to ask of a partner. It's an odd dichotomy but the closing off of sexual freedom actually fuels a lot of prostitution. When people stop looking at sex as dirty or shameful, they will stop feeling the need to separate sexual partners into the categories of "whore" or "wife." I can't prove it but I would speculate that prostitution might have a positive effect on some relationships.

Monty Burnz · 03-12-2010 03:45PM

I'm starting to think that Mussolini has right-wing leanings

Standman · 03-12-2010 03:48PM

It's quite interesting that most people think that prostitution is illegal. If the Joe Duffy-ites got wind of this I could imagine it being illegalised within months.

Prostitution in Ireland.

Comments