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Wearing of the Poppy! Should Irish citizens wear it?

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Comments

  • #422
    MyKeyG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    gurramok wrote: »
    Thing is, it is no longer an exclusive WW1 event and that is lost on a minority of posters here.
    That is exactly why I came on this thread. You're absolutely right! In this day and age it means different things to different people whether 'the mob' dictates it means one thing or another.


  • #423
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    MyKeyG wrote: »
    This is the easiest interaction I've ever encountered. Do you always let yourself down so much regarding definition and history? Your ability to fabricate reality is congratulatory and I'll give you that. Your grammer and syntex is a pleasure to read but personally speaking does not reveal the desired proposed intelligence intended. But hey, so long as you feel important it's all good.

    Ahem.


  • #424
    Einhard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    gurramok wrote: »
    Ah here, we're not talking about exclusively remembering Irish folk who fought in WW1.

    The point of the debate was that the poppy funds modern British soldiers welfare and especially those that committed gross murders in Northern Ireland, that's my main objection.(they are still alive after all unlike the Black & Tans)

    Nothing wrong with remembering Irish people who fought in the British army at the whim of Redmond in WW1 and fighting the horrific Nazis in WWII. Thing is, it is no longer an exclusive WW1 event and that is lost on a minority of posters here.

    My point is that everyone who wears a poppy does so for their own personal reasons, usually in rememberance of a family member who fought in either of the World Wars, or as a more general mark of respect for all those who fought in wars. It's not worn to signal one's support for British imperialism or empire, as some posters here would have one believe, and most of those who sport the poppy would be shocked to hear that suggested. As I've mentioned, I wouldn't wear one myself, but I can understand that people might like to do so for personal reasons, and I feel it's wrong to insinuate insidious motivations where they are not necessarily present.


  • #425
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    K-9 wrote: »
    Rebelheart, do you consider yourself a Republican?

    The capitalised 'r' in republican is worrying. It's a long time since I've been neatly placed into a category. But to answer your question, I'd admire many aspects of Plato and Aristotle's ideas, or rather what they inspired. I'd also have admiration for Machiavelli but not support many of his ideas. I'd have time for Arendt's related concept of 'civic humanism' and generally believe patriotism and civic virtue, in the healthiest, unMachiavellian senses of both ideals is something all societies should aim for. Like Aristotle and all republican thinkers, I believe what's now termed 'civic engagement' can be the centrepiece of a socially cohesive society. Having said that there are many aspects of liberalism which would by no means be exclusive to my concept of republicanism. These include the communitarian thinking of people such as Michael Walzer.

    I can elaborate on my preferences in this regard over on the Political Theory board if you're still interested.

    I trust this answers your question.


  • #426
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Einhard wrote: »
    My point is that everyone who wears a poppy does so for their own personal reasons, usually in rememberance of a family member who fought in either of the World Wars, or as a more general mark of respect for all those who fought in wars. It's not worn to signal one's support for British imperialism or empire, as some posters here would have one believe, and most of those who sport the poppy would be shocked to hear that suggested. As I've mentioned, I wouldn't wear one myself, but I can understand that people might like to do so for personal reasons, and I feel it's wrong to insinuate insidious motivations where they are not necessarily present.

    Huh, its been pretty established by pro-poppy supporters that all funds raised go to ex-servicemen of the British Army modern and old. Considering their murderous role of civilians in NI, that is revolting.


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  • #427
    Einhard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    gurramok wrote: »
    Thing is, it is no longer an exclusive WW1 event and that is lost on a minority of posters here.

    What's lost on yourself and others, in this increasingly mean-spirited and petty thread, is that people project their own meaning onto the poppy. That's what symbols are for. RebelHeart, for example, might see it as a symbol of Britsh imperial oppresion and he's entitled to do so; but someone who wears the poppy might do so in memory of their grandfather, or out of a more vague sense of respect to an entire generation. People wear them for a myriad of different reasons, but some here don't seem to appreciate that. They reduce the poppy to one single interpretation, one that suits their own agenda, and then refuse to countenance the idea that people wear it for any number of reasons, all equally valid. It's personal. That's the point. Everyone wears the poppy for a different reason. It's just a pity that people here can't seem to understand that simple point. Anyway, I don't want to get bogged down here, so that's my last on the matter. See you all next November!!


  • #428
    MyKeyG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    Ahem is right. I consider myself 100% (R)epublican but that doesn't mean I turn my back on reality.


  • #429
    MyKeyG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    Einhard wrote: »
    What's lost on yourself and others, in this increasingly mean-spirited and petty thread, is that people project their own meaning onto the poppy. They reduce the poppy to one single interpretation, one that suits their own agenda, and then refuse to countenance the idea that people wear it for any number of reasons
    Not all!


  • #430
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Einhard wrote: »
    What's lost on yourself and others, in this increasingly mean-spirited and petty thread, is that people project their own meaning onto the poppy. That's what symbols are for. RebelHeart, for example, might see it as a symbol of Britsh imperial oppresion and he's entitled to do so; but someone who wears the poppy might do so in memory of their grandfather, or out of a more vague sense of respect to an entire generation. People wear them for a myriad of different reasons, but some here don't seem to appreciate that. They reduce the poppy to one single interpretation, one that suits their own agenda, and then refuse to countenance the idea that people wear it for any number of reasons, all equally valid. It's personal. That's the point. Everyone wears the poppy for a different reason. It's just a pity that people here can't seem to understand that simple point. Anyway, I don't want to get bogged down here, so that's my last on the matter. See you all next November!!

    I don't wear one in memory of my great grandfather who came home from Flanders and fought against the British in the War of Independence. Explain that one.


  • #431
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    I'd also have admiration for Machiavelli but not support many of his ideas.

    It does answer my question and I think it confirms my belief we will never agree, but I do respect your belief!
    Just as I reserve the right to strongly disagree with it

    Basically, I think there would be no Good Friday Agreement or more, with your viewpoint, whereas with mine, agreement can be reached.

    The Poppy is important and I respect why people abhor it and revere it.

    I live in a community that has 12th July marches etc. in the South of Ireland and we get on fine. Long may it continue!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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  • #432
    Einhard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    gurramok wrote: »
    I don't wear one in memory of my great grandfather who came home from Flanders and fought against the British in the War of Independence. Explain that one.

    Are you serious? Eh how about this then: yours is not the only viewpoint in the world. Are you really suggesting that just because you don't happen to do something, then nobody could possibly do so? This thread just got a little bit more strange. I'm outta here...


  • #433
    policarp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,675 ✭✭✭policarp


    Most Irish citisens are wearing poopies at the moment...


  • #434
    Misanthrope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Misanthrope


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    It makes me laugh the waybAfghanistan is constantly raised, yet those nasty British soldiers are on a mission voted for ny, amongst others, the Republic of Ireland. There are also Irish soldiers out there as part of ISAF. Can we presume therefore that Ireland is an aggressive imperialist country?

    When was that vote held.I don't recall a referendum.Who voted?


  • #435
    TheUsual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,288 ✭✭✭TheUsual


    Irish Republicans (those living in the 26 counties of the Republic of Ireland) should not wear one. I don't care if you do - it's a free world do what you want to.

    Irish Unionists should wear one as it is their history, religion and politics - again none of my business either way.


  • #436
    Misanthrope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Misanthrope


    Nodin wrote: »
    The truth seems to bother you no end.



    Left India and Burma in 1948, Aden in 1967, Kenya 1963. Rhodesia/Zimbabwe 1965, Egypt only in 1952.

    Hong Kong in 1997

    Have they left the Falklands yet?BVI?What about Gibralter?If I'm not mistaken they're still clinging to St Helena.Still squatting in Cyprus right?Of course they boldly claim vast areas of ocean as their territory as well, like in the Indian Ocean.

    Oh, and how did I forget , the 6 counties.The old empire has diminished but is not yet dead.


  • #437
    Einhard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    Misanthrope wrote: »
    Hong Kong in 1997

    Have they left the Falklands yet?BVI?What about Gibralter?If I'm not mistaken they're still clinging to St Helena.Still squatting in Cyprus right?Of course they boldly claim vast areas of ocean as their territory as well, like in the Indian Ocean.

    Oh, and how did I forget , the 6 counties.The old empire has diminished but is not yet dead.

    Does the concept of self-determination through the democratic process mean nothing to you?


  • #438
    Misanthrope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Misanthrope


    LordSutch wrote: »
    If you buy a poppy here in Ireland you contribute to the 'Irish Poppy Appeal fund' and the money collected stays here in Ireland which goes towards the needs of old (Irish) soldiers & their families, its a shame more Irish people are not aware of this . . .

    And they deserve my money why now exactly?They can go to hell.If I wasn't an atheist I'd rest assured they will.

    Any of it go to the victims of British bullets and brutality in Ireland?


  • #439
    Misanthrope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Misanthrope


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Disrespecting a minutes silence on a remembrance day is about as low as you can get. i wonder if the Green brigade scum will do this again this weekend.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXWvXyKhtWA


    Boo hoo my heart bleeds.Do you know what would be much much lower?Driving into a packed Croke Park and opening fire on civilians.Driving into the market square in Amristar and emptying a gattling gun into a crowd of women and children and elderly men.

    But you'd like a minutes silence for Reginald Dyer and his ilk.And you think that deserves respect?I hope they all died slow and roaring.


  • #440
    Misanthrope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Misanthrope


    The Royal British Legion supports calls for a pardon and, for the past two years, has invited the Shot at Dawn campaigners to take part in the march past the Cenotaph in London on Remembrance Sunday. Last year a memorial to the executed soldiers was erected at the National Memorial Arboretum in Lichfield, Staffs.


    Ah shurr no harm done so.Their families must have been over the moon.


  • #441
    Misanthrope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Misanthrope


    Einhard wrote: »
    Does the concept of self-determination through the democratic process mean nothing to you?

    They are British Territories.This means they are under British jurisdiction.When you are under the rule of a foreign nation you are self determining SFA.How could that be democratic?Self determination in Cyprus?

    You are putting British Empire and self-determination through the democratic process in the same paradigm?When clearly they are polar opposites.This is completely illogical.

    Britain is up there with if not leading ,Rome,Hitler,Stalin,Pol Pot etc etc etc, in depriving other humans of their rights, dignity and lives.Britain has famines in Ireland and India that killed millions, to answer for.


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  • #442
    getz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    Misanthrope wrote: »
    They are British Territories.This means they are under British jurisdiction.When you are under the rule of a foreign nation you are self determining SFA.How could that be democratic?Self determination in Cyprus?

    You are putting British Empire and self-determination through the democratic process in the same paradigm?When clearly they are polar opposites.This is completely illogical.

    Britain is up there with if not leading ,Rome,Hitler,Stalin,Pol Pot etc etc etc, in depriving other humans of their rights, dignity and lives.Britain has famines in Ireland and India that killed millions, to answer for.
    depriving humans of their rights,lets see,60,000 young girls locked away for life, 1000s of young children abused,one shouldent throw stones in glass houses


  • #443
    Einhard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    Misanthrope wrote: »
    They are British Territories.This means they are under British jurisdiction.When you are under the rule of a foreign nation you are self determining SFA.How could that be democratic?Self determination in Cyprus?

    You are putting British Empire and self-determination through the democratic process in the same paradigm?When clearly they are polar opposites.This is completely illogical.

    Britain is up there with if not leading ,Rome,Hitler,Stalin,Pol Pot etc etc etc, in depriving other humans of their rights, dignity and lives.Britain has famines in Ireland and India that killed millions, to answer for.

    Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah...

    You're full of BS you know that?

    The people of the Falklands, and the people of Gibraltar voted to remain subject to the Bristish crown. That's their democratic perogative. Funny how, for all your condemnation of the BE, you seem every bit as willing to trample over democratic free will as any old style imperialist.


  • #444
    Misanthrope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Misanthrope


    getz wrote: »
    depriving humans of their rights,lets see,60,000 young girls locked away for life, 1000s of young children abused,one shouldent throw stones in glass houses

    Wow, you use the sexual abuse of Irish children by a poisonous Roman sect as your justification for raping the world.Do you think we chose for the church to do what they did?We might have failed to stop it,we might have been overwhelmed by it, but we never invited it.

    What the RCC do is just as evil and twisted as what Britain does.


  • #445
    Misanthrope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Misanthrope


    Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah...

    You're full of BS you know that?

    LMAO........ pull yourself together....... Mr Poopy Pants:P
    The people of the Falklands, and the people of Gibraltar voted to remain subject to the Bristish crown. That's their democratic perogative. Funny how, for all your condemnation of the BE, you seem every bit as willing to trample over democratic free will as any old style imperialist.

    Did they now?And who oversaw these votes?Presumably, the ruling entity at that point in time which was who?.Can you say 'CORRUPTION' or 'RIGGED VOTE'. But Britain would never do that.That's not cricket old boy!

    Britain has no honour.They have lied to and stole from just about everyone which is why Britain is so despised around the world.I mean really despised.

    I had a Punjabi neighbour who used to say there are no words in the English language to describe the foulness of the British, that only in her language exist the words to describe.I think she just needs to expand her English vocabulary.

    It seems a lot of other languages have at least one specially engineered pejorative reserved for expressing their contempt of Britain.


  • #446
    getz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    Misanthrope wrote: »
    Wow, you use the sexual abuse of Irish children by a poisonous Roman sect as your justification for raping the world.Do you think we chose for the church to do what they did?We might have failed to stop it,we might have been overwhelmed by it, but we never invited it.

    What the RCC do is just as evil and twisted as what Britain does.
    ,by giving rome a special say in the irish goverment,running the education,health and welfare,housing,hospitals ect,even now there is a irish goverment agenda to protect them,get over your republican poison ,take off your blinkers ,then may just maybe you may get a united ireland, thats what all forward people want isent it ?


  • #447
    Amalgam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,026 ✭✭✭Amalgam


    This might be of interest to the thread. Good documentary.

    RTE Radio 1

    Documentary on One
    The Little Cross of Bronze

    Every county in Ireland, except one, has at least one winner of the Victoria Cross as revealed by this radio documentary.

    http://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/radio-documentary-little-cross-of-bronze-victoria.html

    ---

    If you're lazy, direct link to the 'podcast' (.mp3)

    17.61MB - 0:16:40

    http://www.rte.ie/podcasts/2010/pc/pod-v-13111038m36sbronzedoconone.mp3


  • #448
    Einhard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    Misanthrope wrote: »
    LMAO........ pull yourself together....... Mr Poopy Pants:P



    Did they now?And who oversaw these votes?Presumably, the ruling entity at that point in time which was who?.Can you say 'CORRUPTION' or 'RIGGED VOTE'. But Britain would never do that.That's not cricket old boy!

    Britain has no honour.They have lied to and stole from just about everyone which is why Britain is so despised around the world.I mean really despised.

    I had a Punjabi neighbour who used to say there are no words in the English language to describe the foulness of the British, that only in her language exist the words to describe.I think she just needs to expand her English vocabulary.

    It seems a lot of other languages have at least one specially engineered pejorative reserved for expressing their contempt of Britain.

    Jesus Christ, you're raving. No point in even attempting to make a rational point in the face of such absolute nonsense.


  • #449
    getz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    Misanthrope wrote: »
    They are British Territories.This means they are under British jurisdiction.When you are under the rule of a foreign nation you are self determining SFA.How could that be democratic?Self determination in Cyprus?

    You are putting British Empire and self-determination through the democratic process in the same paradigm?When clearly they are polar opposites.This is completely illogical.
    fl
    Britain is up there with if not leading ,Rome,Hitler,Stalin,Pol Pot etc etc etc, in depriving other humans of their rights, dignity and lives.Britain has famines in Ireland and India that killed millions, to answer for.
    the republic of cyprus[EU member] british troops are in cyprus be request of the cyprus goverment and the UN on a peace keeping role,the british are the only one that both the turkish and greeks trust,gibraltar EU member [my wife is from there] most people who live there are orignally from malta[800 years ago] and have no love for the spanish.falklands are all from british settlers, they also have no love for the argentine, little bit of history for you


  • #450
    getz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    falklands,check out this.www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/letters/article7039764.ece.


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  • #451
    Misanthrope
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Misanthrope


    getz wrote: »
    ,by giving rome a special say in the irish goverment,running the education,health and welfare,housing,hospitals ect,even now there is a irish goverment agenda to protect them,get over your republican poison ,take off your blinkers ,then may just maybe you may get a united ireland, thats what all forward people want isent it ?

    I'm not crying out for a united Ireland.I gave up on that dream years ago.?This thread is about the poppy.

    By the way, do you know what syntax is?Punctuation?Am I supposed to take you seriously?

    "Goverment"???????? You are kidding right?What age are you?What you have written would be a fail in 2nd class English.You should have taken your blinkers off in school.

    You don't even know what a republican is do you?In your simple mind it translates to RA-head.Look it up kid.Did you actually sit a leaving cert.

    Stop wasting my time with your incoherent illiteracy.


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