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Wearing of the Poppy! Should Irish citizens wear it?

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Comments

  • #392
    galwayrush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,815 ✭✭✭✭galwayrush


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    It beggars belief how anybody can see the British poppy as apolitical and inclusive. It's as British nationalist as it comes.

    I met a Canadian yesterday, of Irish descent. He was wearing a poppy to remember the dead from his regiment in the Canadian army .:rolleyes:


  • #393
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    We can all be very certain that the British aren't commemorating Tom Barry, the IRA leader, when they commemorate those who fought for the British state. I'd safely say Barry's fate would be more like those British soldiers who decided to desert in WW I and were taken out at dawn and executed for treason.

    So rather than just getting a hard on about using those men to further your own agenda, how do you propose to remember their deaths?

    Personally, it is for men like this and hundreds of thousands of others that i will be observing a minutes silence on Sunday.


  • #394
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    We can all be very certain that the British aren't commemorating Tom Barry, the IRA leader, when they commemorate those who fought for the British state. I'd safely say Barry's fate would be more like those British soldiers who decided to desert in WW I and were taken out at dawn and executed for treason.

    Did you read the link you posted? It says:
    The Royal British Legion supports calls for a pardon and, for the past two years, has invited the Shot at Dawn campaigners to take part in the march past the Cenotaph in London on Remembrance Sunday. Last year a memorial to the executed soldiers was erected at the National Memorial Arboretum in Lichfield, Staffs.


  • #395
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    galwayrush wrote: »
    I met a Canadian yesterday, of Irish descent. He was wearing a poppy to remember the dead from his regiment in the Canadian army .:rolleyes:

    Yes, is that the same Canada that's part of the British Commonwealth with the Queen of England as its head of state? A raving independent sovereign republic, there. :rolleyes:

    Of course they've politely dropped the 'British' these days, but the head of the sectarian British monarchy still presides over her entire British Commonwealth.


  • #396
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    We can all be very certain that the British aren't commemorating Tom Barry, the IRA leader, when they commemorate those who fought for the British state. I'd safely say Barry's fate would be more like those British soldiers who decided to desert in WW I and were taken out at dawn and executed for treason.

    His family descendents may decide so. It isn't for you or your sympathisers to decide how it is done, that would be contrary to true Republican spirit.

    By your measurement of WW1 soldiers, WW2 soldiers are more worthy, After all, they had no illusions about war and knew what they were getting into.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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  • #397
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    Did you read the link you posted? It says:

    I did, of course. What's the relevancy of your above quote to what I was actually posting about in that post?


  • #398
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    I did, of course. What's the relevancy of your above quote to what I was actually posting about in that post?

    The article you linked to does nothing to confirm the point you are making, but weakens it.

    Are you seriously telling me that you can't see that?


  • #399
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    So rather than just getting a hard on .... Personally, it is for men like this and hundreds of thousands of others that i will be observing a minutes silence on Sunday.

    Do any of "the others" include Russians or other, you know, those people, those, em, commies? - there, I've said it!

    How, well, "kinky" of you to bring up "hard-ons" when talking about British poppy propaganda....

    Anyway, it's hard to fathom how you can honour the people who occupied other countries and not honour the people who suffered at their hands. To honour people because they fought for your side is plainly tribal, not enlightened or humanitarian.
    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    how do you propose to remember their deaths?

    As unexpected as it might sound: why should their deaths be remembered, at least in the narrow, nationalistic way in which the poppy commemorates them?

    If these people are to be "remembered" then surely such remembrance ought to be striped of all politics and they should be remembered by an internationally agreed symbol which, for the first time, unites Russians, Yanks, Brits and Germans (yes, Germans!) in a genuine commemoration of the futility of war. What would be your objections to this?

    I travelled to Benburb not so long ago. I was looking for a commemoration monument to one of the most important battles in Irish history. There was nothing, nothing at all, there. In contrast, in Armagh town there are commemoration stones all over the place honouring those who died for the British Empire. When a major Irish victory is totally ignored in terms of commemoration, it got me to thinking that maybe such "commemorations", or at least their extent, are a very British/Anglo-American cultural expression. The disproportionate number of military history shows on The History Channel would tend to support this interpretation.


  • #400
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    The article you linked to does nothing to confirm the point you are making, but weakens it.

    Are you seriously telling me that you can't see that?

    Reading 101:

    me: "I'd safely say Barry's fate would be more like those British soldiers who decided to desert in WW I and were taken out at dawn and executed for treason."

    you: "The article you linked to does nothing to confirm the point you are making, but weakens it."

    Simple English: They were executed (306 of them, to be precise). This, and not "commemoration", would likely have been Barry's fate had the British caught him. Reading the post could have been helpful for you.


  • #401
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    Reading the post could have been helpful for you.

    Hee hee...shame you can't just admit that you got it wrong on how the deserters are commemorated rather than spin a yarn about hypthetical punishments.

    No shame in not knowing about how they are commemorated, though - most people don't.

    By the way, the Benburb Valley Heritage Centre has a model of the battlefield which you can inspect for historical accuracy next time you're there.

    Incidentally, did you come home via Staines?


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  • #402
    40040D
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 252 ✭✭40040D


    The poppy is associated with the British? Yes?
    And the Shamrock is associated with us..The Irish !:)

    Right well if we want to show our remembrance for our soldiers who have lost their lives in wars past, Surely we could come up with something with the shamrock,or harp or something :P

    Would this solve this discussion/debate ?:confused:


  • #403
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    Hee hee...shame you can't just admit that you got it wrong on how the deserters are commemorated rather than spin a yarn about hypthetical punishments.

    "Hee hee" - mar dhea. That's your post you're talking about. If you read my actual post, rather than read what you wanted into it, you couldn't have drawn the rather bizarre conclusions about the purpose of my post which you've just done. Don't try to be a smartarse: it doesn't suit you.

    Incidentally, there was nothing "hypothetical" about their punishment: they were executed for desertion/treason. Have you even read the article in question? This post of yours is, quite frankly, really odd.
    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    By the way, the Benburb Valley Heritage Centre has a model of the battlefield which you can inspect for historical accuracy next time you're there.

    I was there maybe four or five years ago. I met a local woman at the Servite Priory next to the site of the battle. And she was adamant that there was nothing around there to commemorate the battle.


  • #404
    MyKeyG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    Dionysus wrote: »
    It's been well established already on this thread that Remembrance Day is a memorial day in British Commonwealth countries only. More relevantly, the red poppy is a symbol in those countries alone and is not designed to commemorate people who fought for countries outside of British Commonwealth countries. This is why, for instance, the leaders of France, the United States and Russia do not wear the British poppy. This is also why, in my view, its narrow British nationalistic characteristics make it an inappropriate symbol of war commemoration in an independent sovereign state such as Ireland.
    Even though the Poppies in question represent the trenches in France where people of all nations perished??? Just because the British chose to adopt it as a symbol of their fallen should the entire world choose to avoid observing it in their own right?


  • #405
    Mr. Presentable
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,495 ✭✭✭Mr. Presentable


    When did remembrance day become a month?


  • #406
    MyKeyG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    Yeah at least the Americans have the good sense to narrow it down to a remembrance 'day'.


  • #407
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    "Hee hee" - mar dhea...

    That last post of yours is just trolling.

    Bíonn an fhírinne searbh, eh?

    Other news, which I don't think has been mentioned so far here: Margaret Ritchie will be wearing a poppy on Sunday, the first ever SDLP leader to do so. I've a feeling she'll have lots of tedious explaining to do.


  • #408
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    MyKeyG wrote: »
    Even though the Poppies in question represent the trenches in France where people of all nations perished??? Just because the British chose to adopt it as a symbol of their fallen should the entire world choose to avoid observing it in their own right?

    We observe those horrendous battles ourselves without wearing/buying a poppy.

    Did you notice the recent meeting between Cameron and Sarkozy on tv?

    Cameron was wearing a red poppy and Sarkozy was well not wearing one considering alot of the battles in WW1 occurred on French soil but hey as we've established that buying the poppy supports all British soldiers including the murderers on Bloody Sunday who are probably at pension age now.


  • #409
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    MyKeyG wrote: »
    Even though the Poppies in question represent the trenches in France where people of all nations perished??? Just because the British chose to adopt it as a symbol of their fallen should the entire world choose to avoid observing it in their own right?

    By that logic, should we just deem the Swastika still to be a Hindu sign of peace? Language use changes. Most people accept that. This is especially so when something is hijacked by a xenophobic, rightwing nationalist organisation like the Royal British Legion.

    To me, the poppy is a flower which grows wild across western Europe. It's a lovely flower. Wearing one to commemorate those who died in British Empire/Commonwealth forces is, obviously, a political statement. This is why the vast majority of the world avoids it. If you genuinely want an apolitical symbol of commemoration, you'd better start thinking more inclusively than the Royal British Legion's poppy.


  • #410
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    That last post of yours is just trolling.

    And this latest post of yours is a testimony to your inability to understand even remedial English.


  • #411
    MyKeyG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    By that logic, should we just deem the Swastika still to be a Hindu sign of peace?
    Absolutely! An Indian restaurant in a Ennis a few years back had a decorative statue bearing the Swastika! It's narrow minded logic like yours that reduces such cultured symbols to base discrimination. Just because the Nazi's adopted a pure Hindu symbol as one of evil doesn't make it wrong in as much as crimes committed in the name of Allah should not condemn every Muslim.

    Just because the Brits chose to observe the Poppy as a symbol of Armistace doesn't negate the fact that where parts of the Western front trenches once laid are now fields rich with poppies and soaked up the blood of men from all nations.


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  • #412
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    MyKeyG wrote: »
    Absolutely! An Indian restaurant in a Ennis a few years back had a decorative statue bearing the Swastika! .... Just because the Nazi's adopted a pure Hindu symbol as one of evil doesn't make it wrong .

    Just because the Brits chose to observe the Poppy as a symbol of Armistace doesn't negate the fact that where parts of the Western front trenches once laid are now fields rich with poppies.

    Alas, there's reality, which is shaped hugely by perception. You appear to be uncomfortable with this, but perception matters and that is why the meaning of words and symbols changes in every language in every generation. Take out your dictionary and look up something and it's very common to see 'obs', meaning obsolete, next to a definition of a word. Why resist this reality? A colonialist, for instance, does not merely refer to a person who farms land, a cultivator, as it did a millennium ago.
    MyKeyG wrote: »
    It's narrow minded logic like yours that reduces such cultured symbols to base discrimination.

    Now, now. This does you no favours.


  • #413
    Einhard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    Alas, there's reality, which is shaped hugely by perception. You appear to be uncomfortable with this, but perception matters and that is why the meaning of words and symbols changes in every language in every generation. Take out your dictionary and look up something and it's very common to see 'obs', meaning obsolete, next to a definition of a word. Why resist this reality? A colonialist, for instance, does not merely refer to a person who farms land, a cultivator, as it did a millennium ago.


    And perception is subjective RebelHeart, but you seem to be operating under the illusion that your perception is the only one that matters, and anyone who offers another opinion, no matter how mild or inoffensive, has to be challenged in as aggressive manner as possible. People wear the poppy for a myriad of different reasons; they attach their own value and meaning to it, as people have done with symbols throughout history. You must understand this, and yet you persist with the charge that the poppy always represents a celebration of imperialism and those who fought for empire. But that's not the case. It means a different thing to every single person who sports it, and you have no right to to claim your individual perception is each individual's personal reality.


  • #414
    MyKeyG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    Individual perception does not change reality no matter how much you want it to.
    Now, now. This does you no favours.
    I don't remember asking for any, do you? By the way I'm well aquainted with forums and where an attack on comment replaces a response it stinks of desperation. But maybe again I'm not doing myself any favours!


  • #415
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    Alas, there's reality, which is shaped hugely by perception. You appear to be uncomfortable with this, but perception matters and that is why the meaning of words and symbols changes in every language in every generation. Take out your dictionary and look up something and it's very common to see 'obs', meaning obsolete, next to a definition of a word. Why resist this reality? A colonialist, for instance, does not merely refer to a person who farms land, a cultivator, as it did a millennium ago.

    Most patronising post of the thread and misses the point entirely.

    MykeyG is quite right. The world would be a better place without amateur semioticians imposing half-baked ideas on everyone else.


  • #416
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    MyKeyG wrote: »
    Individual perception does not change reality no matter how much you want it to.

    Ahem. You're digressing again. The point was, clearly, that language changes and perception is a huge element in that. You're clearly in denial of that reality. There's nothing more that I can say then.

    MyKeyG wrote: »
    By the way I'm well aquainted with forums and where an attack on comment replaces a response it stinks of desperation. But maybe again I'm not doing myself any favours!

    This is a silly enough post. You made an ad hominem attack on me and I responded by making an ad rem attack on your ad hominem. And the ad rem comment is a sign of "desperation" in your world? Maybe next time I should launch a personal attack on you and that would be grand in your world. Très bizarre.


  • #417
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Rebelheart, do you consider yourself a Republican?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #418
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Einhard wrote: »
    And perception is subjective RebelHeart, but you seem to be operating under the illusion that your perception is the only one that matters, and anyone who offers another opinion, no matter how mild or inoffensive, has to be challenged in as aggressive manner as possible. People wear the poppy for a myriad of different reasons; they attach their own value and meaning to it, as people have done with symbols throughout history. You must understand this, and yet you persist with the charge that the poppy always represents a celebration of imperialism and those who fought for empire. But that's not the case. It means a different thing to every single person who sports it, and you have no right to to claim your individual perception is each individual's personal reality.
    MyKeyG wrote: »
    Individual perception does not change reality no matter how much you want it to.

    I don't remember asking for any, do you? By the way I'm well aquainted with forums and where an attack on comment replaces a response it stinks of desperation. But maybe again I'm not doing myself any favours!
    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    Most patronising post of the thread and misses the point entirely.

    MykeyG is quite right. The world would be a better place without amateur semioticians imposing half-baked ideas on everyone else.

    Ah here, we're not talking about exclusively remembering Irish folk who fought in WW1.

    The point of the debate was that the poppy funds modern British soldiers welfare and especially those that committed gross murders in Northern Ireland, that's my main objection.(they are still alive after all unlike the Black & Tans)

    Nothing wrong with remembering Irish people who fought in the British army at the whim of Redmond in WW1 and fighting the horrific Nazis in WWII. Thing is, it is no longer an exclusive WW1 event and that is lost on a minority of posters here.


  • #419
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    Rebelheart wrote: »
    This is a silly enough post. You made an ad hominem attack on me and I responded by making an ad rem attack on your ad hominem. And the ad rem comment is a sign of "desperation" in your world? Maybe next time I should launch a personal attack on you and that would be grand in your world. Très bizarre.

    It's not enough to type Latin words - you have to know what they mean.

    His observation was not ad hominem. Case dismissed.

    /bangs gavel


  • #420
    Rebelheart
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    Donkey Oaty wrote: »
    Most patronising post of the thread and misses the point entirely.

    I'm happy to see you've read all 414 previous posts of this single thread, Donkey Oaty. Your priorities are an honour to Ireland's education system and smart economy. It's testimony to your, em, strength of mind that you've clearly learned nothing from them.

    PS: I'm impressed you know of the existence of Latin. Keep it going, Donkey. But please don't even attempt to understand Latin until you've got to grips with basic English.


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  • #421
    MyKeyG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    This is the easiest interaction I've ever encountered. Do you always let yourself down so much regarding definition and history? Your ability to fabricate reality is congratulatory and I'll give you that. Your grammer and syntex is a pleasure to read but personally speaking does not reveal the desired proposed intelligence intended. But hey, so long as you feel important it's all good.


This discussion has been closed.
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