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you have to watch this guys videos

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    #122
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    Di0genes wrote: »
    http://www.trosch.org/

    Do you have a slightly less crazy source for this?

    :D attacking the source and ignoring the material at hand nothing new there. So according to you the Catholic encyclopedia is crazy, hmmm. Here is another source for you then, you need to scroll down to paragraph sub-titled "use of oaths".
    http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=1368
    Quotes reference to the big book etc, anecdotes and analogies that would be familiar to members in AA
    Will you go away out of that, youre demanding sources left right and centre and I want them too, show me something concrete please.
    All AA meetings follow a strict ritual, the listing of the steps and traditions, etc....
    Ok your defintion of the word ritual is not the same as I had in mind but I accept it, because I know what you mean. I think the word routine or procedure would be more suited to the AA to be honest.
    But this is beside the point, you've not shown that there is a sinister agenda to the freemasons, until you do so, you can't insist there should be a prison sentence for politicians who are masons who don't publicly announce they are masons.
    Nah whats beside the point actually is comparing freemasonry, which has been resisted and viewed with suspicion and contempt throughout history by many people including the church, to AA, its quite ridiculous actually in my opinion. Show me where I insisted there should be prison sentences for politicians? Dont be putting words in my mouth please or making assumptions on my behalf I didnt insist anything of the sort no need to be making things up.
    No you need to show me that the Garda or the Judge is promoting fremasonry or a freemason agenda ahead of the duties the are sworn to uphold as part of their office.
    No I dont. Freemasons have to swear an oath. Gardai and judges serve the people and the country. Those are the only oaths they can ever swear by or serve. If they undertake any further oaths and abide by them there is a potential conflict of interest that shoudlnt be tolerated, in my opinion.


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    #123
    Di0genes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭Di0genes


    WakeUp wrote: »
    :D attacking the source and ignoring the material at hand nothing new there. So according to you the Catholic encyclopedia is crazy, hmmm. Here is another source for you then, you need to scroll down to paragraph sub-titled "use of oaths".
    http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=1368

    The post you refer to to relates to masons and catholicism, not masons and society in general.
    Will you go away out of that, youre demanding sources left right and centre and I want them too, show me something concrete please.

    Go buy a copy of the big book. For a organisation dedicated to the helping of addicts, the AA is remarkable vehement about protecting their literatures copyright.

    But to give you on example
    Those who do not recover are those who cannot or will not give themselves completely to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates . . . they seem to have been born that way.

    From the AA mantra.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/06/AR2010080602660_2.html?sub=AR
    Ok your defintion of the word ritual is not the same as I had in mind but I accept it, because I know what you mean. I think the word routine or procedure would be more suited to the AA to be honest.
    Nah whats beside the point actually is comparing freemasonry, which has been resisted and viewed with suspicion and contempt throughout history by many people including the church,

    So have jews that doesn't mean the suspicion is valid.
    to AA, its quite ridiculous actually in my opinion.

    Quiet, and this is the problem, you're fixating on AA, and not the fact that I was using AA as a analogy. To wit AA is a secret organisation, politicians or judges could belong to, that they'd be forced to admit admission of, under JB's rule.


    Show me where I insisted there should be prison sentences for politicians? Dont be putting words in my mouth please or making assumptions on my behalf I didnt insist anything of the sort no need to be making things up.

    You don't JB did. Or do you think that that's wrong.
    No I dont. Freemasons have to swear an oath. Gardai and judges serve the people and the country. Those are the only oaths they can ever swear by or serve. If they undertake any further oaths and abide by them there is a potential conflict of interest that shoudlnt be tolerated, in my opinion.

    Yeah unfortunately the oath a Garda takes or a judge takes has legal ramifications if they abuse that oath. There's no such problem with them neglecting that freemason oath.

    Can you provide a single example of a freemason neglecting his duty in order to protect a fellow lodge member at the expense of their legal duty?


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    #124
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    Di0genes wrote: »
    The post you refer to to relates to masons and catholicism, not masons and society in general.

    That’s irrelevant. The oath/s is/are still similar. You originally asked me to provide a source to back up a statement I made (post no 113) I provided you with the source, you told me it was “crazy” and asked for another one. I provided a second source (post no 122), pointed you to the relevant paragraph and sentence in question dealing with your original query, I will even quote the relevant sentence for you again….

    "Further, that I will acknowledge and obey all due signs and summons sent to me from a Master Masons' Lodge"

    And now you’re coming out with the above??. Shall we discuss the detail and wording of the undertaken oath? After all it is a very weird, strange and bewildering oath if that indeed is how it’s worded.
    Go buy a copy of the big book. For a organisation dedicated to the helping of addicts, the AA is remarkable vehement about protecting their literatures copyright.

    But to give you on example

    From the AA mantra.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/06/AR2010080602660_2.html?sub=AR
    Ok your defintion of the word ritual is not the same as I had in mind but I accept it, because I know what you mean. I think the word routine or procedure would be more suited to the AA to be honest.
    Don’t tell me to go buy a book. You go buy the book and back up your statement. You stated that AA members have secret turns and phrases that enable them to spot another member (post no 113) I dunno maybe they do but Id like to see your source please. You then said “but to give you an example” and took an extract from a Washington post article. An example of what I don’t know because no where in that link you posted does it allude to your claim that AA members use secret code. Still waiting for that source but its irrelevant to me really because I dont class the AA in the same league of secret society as the Mason's.
    So have jews that doesn't mean the suspicion is valid.
    Irrelevant, leave the Jews out of it please you’d be the first to cry wolf if I brought up the Jews.
    Quiet, and this is the problem, you're fixating on AA, and not the fact that I was using AA as a analogy. To wit AA is a secret organisation, politicians or judges could belong to, that they'd be forced to admit admission of, under JB's rule.
    Not sure if the first word in the above, quiet, is a typo or you’re actually telling me to be quiet. If it’s a typo fair enough you can clear that up for me or explain why you started your reply off with the word quiet, if you’re telling me to be quiet well then I’m sitting here breaking my sh1te laughing at you, that’s a good one:D

    I’m not fixating on anything I’m just highlighting how silly I think your analogy of freemasonry with AA is. We know what AA is all about it isn’t secret. The people who attend AA can well be viewed as patients and patient confidentiality is to be expected. Nobody should or could be sent to prison for attending AA that’s just ridiculous I’m sure if this rule ever did come about, medical/rehab would be excluded from the term “secret society”. Again I find your analogy weak.
    You don't JB did. Or do you think that that's wrong.
    What are you saying here the above isn’t very clear I think you’re referring to JB’s proposed sentence for non-disclosure which I will address in my comment at the end. If you are getting at something else you can tell me what you’re on about.
    Yeah unfortunately the oath a Garda takes or a judge takes has legal ramifications if they abuse that oath. There's no such problem with them neglecting that freemason oath.
    Obviously there is a legal price to be paid if they abuse their oath of office. But how do you know for certain there are no ramifications for abusing the oath of the hood. There may be some very angry overlords to deal with. How do you know for certain how seriously they take that oath? How do you know for certain if a conflict of interest has ever arisen? The answer is you don’t unless you’re privy to information that the rest of aren’t.
    Can you provide a single example of a freemason neglecting his duty in order to protect a fellow lodge member at the expense of their legal duty?
    No I can’t. Can you 100% state that it has never happened before. Of course you cant.
    ____________________________________________________________

    With regard to the OP’s point that serving members of the State in whatever guise they take, should be made disclose the fact they are a member of a secret organisation for example the Masons, I would have to agree with him. Should they be sent to prison if they are found not to have disclosed it? I would say no. They should be sacked from their position and sent to the zoo one day a week to clean out the elephant enclosure. On their weekly day trip to the zoo they have to wear a big sign around their neck saying “Im a dirty non-disclosing Free-mason” Five years of that would be punishment a plenty in my opinion.:D


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    #125
    Di0genes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭Di0genes


    WakeUp wrote: »
    That’s irrelevant. The oath/s is/are still similar. You originally asked me to provide a source to back up a statement I made (post no 113) I provided you with the source, you told me it was “crazy” and asked for another one. I provided a second source (post no 122), pointed you to the relevant paragraph and sentence in question dealing with your original query, I will even quote the relevant sentence for you again….

    "Further, that I will acknowledge and obey all due signs and summons sent to me from a Master Masons' Lodge"

    I'd like a source that isn't so rabidly pro catholic.
    And now you’re coming out with the above??. Shall we discuss the detail and wording of the undertaken oath? After all it is a very weird, strange and bewildering oath if that indeed is how it’s worded.

    I'd like to see the wording come from a Mason site, or lodge before I believe it.

    Don’t tell me to go buy a book. You go buy the book and back up your statement. You stated that AA members have secret turns and phrases that enable them to spot another member (post no 113) I dunno maybe they do but Id like to see your source please. You then said “but to give you an example” and took an extract from a Washington post article. An example of what I don’t know because no where in that link you posted does it allude to your claim that AA members use secret code.

    That quote is from the serenity pray.
    Still waiting for that source but its irrelevant to me really because I dont class the AA in the same league of secret society as the Mason's.

    Thats nice, the point that seems to escape you that if a person was a member of AA, they would have to admit it or face prison in JBs crazy world.
    Irrelevant, leave the Jews out of it please you’d be the first to cry wolf if I brought up the Jews.

    I didn't I merely pointed out that the mason's like the jews get a bum rap throughout history and your point.
    freemasonry, which has been resisted and viewed with suspicion and contempt throughout history by many people including the church,

    The Catholic church has viewed lots of organisations and religions with suspicion throughout history, that doesn't mean these suspicions are valid.
    Not sure if the first word in the above, quiet, is a typo or you’re actually telling me to be quiet. If it’s a typo fair enough you can clear that up for me or explain why you started your reply off with the word quiet, if you’re telling me to be quiet well then I’m sitting here breaking my sh1te laughing at you, that’s a good one:D
    It was quite, why a typo deserved a paragraph I don't know.
    I’m not fixating on anything I’m just highlighting how silly I think your analogy of freemasonry with AA is. We know what AA is all about it isn’t secret. The people who attend AA can well be viewed as patients and patient confidentiality is to be expected. Nobody should or could be sent to prison for attending AA that’s just ridiculous I’m sure if this rule ever did come about, medical/rehab would be excluded from the term “secret society”. Again I find your analogy weak.

    They're not patients they're a fellowship, and they have secrets (what's said in the room stays in the room)
    Obviously there is a legal price to be paid if they abuse their oath of office. But how do you know for certain there are no ramifications for abusing the oath of the hood. There may be some very angry overlords to deal with. How do you know for certain how seriously they take that oath? How do you know for certain if a conflict of interest has ever arisen? The answer is you don’t unless you’re privy to information that the rest of aren’t.
    No I can’t. Can you 100% state that it has never happened before. Of course you cant.

    irrelevant, you've made the claim the onus is on you to support it, not to me to disprove it.
    ____________________________________________________________

    With regard to the OP’s point that serving members of the State in whatever guise they take, should be made disclose the fact they are a member of a secret organisation for example the Masons, I would have to agree with him. Should they be sent to prison if they are found not to have disclosed it? I would say no. They should be sacked from their position and sent to the zoo one day a week to clean out the elephant enclosure. On their weekly day trip to the zoo they have to wear a big sign around their neck saying “Im a dirty non-disclosing Free-mason” Five years of that would be punishment a plenty in my opinion.:D

    So you disagree with the punishment, but agree with the fact that it's a crime. Can you explain why you think Freemasons are evil?


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    #126
    Di0genes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭Di0genes


    joebucks wrote: »
    Thanks for the petty insult.

    Again you are taking what people say out of context. I did not say that they concealed their activities. What I meant was that if they were to conceal such activities then it should be seen as an offense against the state.

    You called it a "secret society" a secret society is by it's very nature concealing it's activities.

    Do you have anything else aside from hair splitting?

    JB did not intimate that if you are a member of a secret society then you are corrupt. He said that if you are a member of such a society then you have to declare it and not declaring it would be the offense.

    And apparently your definition of a secret society is a public drinking club in College, all the way to the Freemasons.

    At what point do they have to admit their allegiance to private clubs. Are social clubs acceptable? Golf clubs? 12 Step programs?


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    #127
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    Di0genes wrote: »
    I'd like a source that isn't so rabidly pro catholic.

    What have you got against Catholism? Is there a particular reason that you dont accept that as a source.
    I'd like to see the wording come from a Mason site, or lodge before I believe it.
    Maybe we can ask a Mason about the oath that they took. Any takers? Maybe somebody reading this will step up and clear it up for us Im sure there are a few about the place.
    That quote is from the serenity pray.
    Thats nice but what has the serenity prayer got to do with your claim about secret AA turns and phrases. When are you going to back that up.
    Thats nice, the point that seems to escape you that if a person was a member of AA, they would have to admit it or face prison in JBs crazy world.
    It doesnt escape me at all I just dont buy or accept your analogy of AA with Freemasonry and Im guessing if JB was asked about it neither would he, how could he, punish people seeking help in whatever form that treatment comes.. it isnt rational.
    I didn't I merely pointed out that the mason's like the jews get a bum rap throughout history and your point.
    You still brought up the Jews. Anyone else mentions the Jews they get jumped on but its ok when it suits, thats my point, lets leave the Jews out of it.
    The Catholic church has viewed lots of organisations and religions with suspicion throughout history, that doesn't mean these suspicions are valid.
    The abovement statement doesn't discredit the suspicion either, maybe there is something to it, who knows for sure but many people have doubts about the hood's "good" intentions. Can you say for sure that the suspicion is unfounded. Seems like we are going around in circles here.
    It was quite, why a typo deserved a paragraph I don't know.
    Just making sure you can be quite slippery, imo.
    They're not patients they're a fellowship, and they have secrets (what's said in the room stays in the room)
    Yes they are a fellowship and whats said in the room stays in the room but there is also a line thought saying it is a medical condition an illness it alludes to it in that article you linked. Technically they could be classed as patients/clients.
    irrelevant, you've made the claim the onus is on you to support it, not to me to disprove it.
    It has been widely reported that Masons take an oath I dont think there is much to disprove.
    So you disagree with the punishment, but agree with the fact that it's a crime. Can you explain why you think Freemasons are evil?
    Show me where I said the Masons are evil? Stop jumping the gun. I have an issue with public servants being members of a secret society and swearing an oath to that society. On that basis I agree with the OP.


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    #128
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,144 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    joebucks wrote: »
    Unbelievable? Unreal?

    Are you serious?

    Yes I am serious. You are advocating that it is ok to breach the constitutional rights of certain individuals simply because they are members of a particular legal group. Do you think it's acceptable to suspend constitutional rights for certain people??


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    #129
    Di0genes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭Di0genes


    WakeUp wrote: »
    What have you got against Catholism? Is there a particular reason that you dont accept that as a source.

    A rabid pro catholic website, I'd no more accept that than I would a neo nazi source.
    Maybe we can ask a Mason about the oath that they took. Any takers? Maybe somebody reading this will step up and clear it up for us Im sure there are a few about the place.

    So you admit you have no idea what a Mason oath actually contains.
    Thats nice but what has the serenity prayer got to do with your claim about secret AA turns and phrases. When are you going to back that up.

    It doesnt escape me at all I just dont buy or accept your analogy of AA with Freemasonry and Im guessing if JB was asked about it neither would he, how could he, punish people seeking help in whatever form that treatment comes.. it isnt rational.

    And the point that seems to completely allude you is that under JBs rules membership of AA would have to be revealed on the pain of prison sentencing.
    You still brought up the Jews. Anyone else mentions the Jews they get jumped on but its ok when it suits, thats my point, lets leave the Jews out of it.

    No you brought up, the fact that Catholics have been historically suspicious of masons, I merely pointed out that they have been historically suspicious of jews, that doesn't made the suspicion valid.
    The abovement statement doesn't discredit the suspicion either, maybe there is something to it, who knows for sure but many people have doubts about the hood's "good" intentions. Can you say for sure that the suspicion is unfounded. Seems like we are going around in circles here.

    See thats the problem here, I don't get to accuse someone of being a paedophile, and then demand that they prove that they don't molest children.
    Just making sure you can be quite slippery, imo.

    Yes they are a fellowship and whats said in the room stays in the room but there is also a line thought saying it is a medical condition an illness it alludes to it in that article you linked. Technically they could be classed as patients/clients.

    Its also not considered an illness by organisations like the US supreme court, and most addiction specialist doctors.

    Technically aside, there are no Doctors, or paid professional councillors in AA meetings. If A Garda hears what he suspects is a crime in a AA meeting, he's supposed to not investigate it.
    It has been widely reported that Masons take an oath I dont think there is much to disprove.

    Okay but whats the wording of this oath. Thats the rub.
    Show me where I said the Masons are evil? Stop jumping the gun.

    You don't think they're evil you just think that membership must be identified and members who don't should be forced to work in the zoo.

    Jesus wriggle much?
    I have an issue with public servants being members of a secret society and swearing an oath to that society. On that basis I agree with the OP.

    And how prevalent are politicians in the Masons? Whats the wording of this oath? Does the oath supersede other oaths the members must swear as part of their duty as public servants?

    Until you can show all of the above you're engaging in a juvenile witch hunt.

    Frankly in a week where we discovered how much our politicians knew about the anglo disaster, giving credence to this idiots you tube videos is a waste of time!


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    #130
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    Di0genes wrote: »
    A rabid pro catholic website, I'd no more accept that than I would a neo nazi source.

    Now you're equating people who are pro-catholic with neo-nazi's. Get off the stage will you.
    So you admit you have no idea what a Mason oath actually contains.
    Do you? If its all lovey dovey the hood is all good type of stuff why dont they tell us all about it. Why is it so secret. Why? We have reports about what the oath entails but they wont come out themselves and clear it up. Why. Why not have a Mason open day and invite us all down and show us around, tell us the score, enlighten us whatever, why all the secrecy?
    And the point that seems to completely allude you is that under JBs rules membership of AA would have to be revealed on the pain of prison sentencing.
    And my point seems to be completely alluding you.
    No you brought up, the fact that Catholics have been historically suspicious of masons, I merely pointed out that they have been historically suspicious of jews, that doesn't made the suspicion valid.
    Thats not true at all you brought up the Jews anyone can read back over what we have typed and will see that plain as day for whatever reason you brought them up.
    See thats the problem here, I don't get to accuse someone of being a paedophile, and then demand that they prove that they don't molest children.
    Thats pathetic.

    Its also not considered an illness by organisations like the US supreme court, and most addiction specialist doctors.
    Technically aside, there are no Doctors, or paid professional councillors in AA meetings. If A Garda hears what he suspects is a crime in a AA meeting, he's supposed to not investigate it.
    If thats true about the Gardai well then thats wrong. I still dont accept your analogy and never will though. Should it be made law that people serving public office have to declare their membership of a secret society new rules need to be drafted to cover everything including AA.
    Okay but whats the wording of this oath. Thats the rub.
    Exactly, now you're getting it. We only have reports they wont come out and set the record straight. Why all the secrecy.

    You don't think they're evil you just think that membership must be identified and members who don't should be forced to work in the zoo.

    Jesus wriggle much?
    Thats pricelss thanks for that gave me a chuckle:D Coming from Mr Wiggle change the subject himself, stop at the shop.
    And how prevalent are politicians in the Masons? Whats the wording of this oath? Does the oath supersede other oaths the members must swear as part of their duty as public servants?
    If they werent so secret and sly maybe we would have the answers to those questions. Why all the secrecy? If the hood is all good spread the knowledge and tell us all about it. A high ranking overlord should set the record straight. Stop being sly and secretive in the hood I would say.
    Until you can show all of the above you're engaging in a juvenile witch hunt.
    I would disagree.
    Frankly in a week where we discovered how much our politicians knew about the anglo disaster, giving credence to this idiots you tube videos is a waste of time!
    Well then frankly why are you giving it credence.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fOkx-k8a5c


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    #131
    Di0genes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭Di0genes


    WakeUp wrote: »
    Now you're equating people who are pro-catholic with neo-nazi's. Get off the stage will you.

    I'm sorry firstly you said
    Not sure if the first word in the above, quiet, is a typo or you’re actually telling me to be quiet. If it’s a typo fair enough you can clear that up for me or explain why you started your reply off with the word quiet, if you’re telling me to be quiet well then I’m sitting here breaking my sh1te laughing at you, that’s a good on

    You're breaking your ****e laughing at me, and then you tell me to get off the stage? Jesus wept.

    Secondly ever heard of an organisation called Opus Dei? Or Youth Defence?
    Do you? If its all lovey dovey the hood is all good type of stuff why dont they tell us all about it. Why is it so secret. Why? We have reports about what the oath entails but they wont come out themselves and clear it up. Why. Why not have a Mason open day and invite us all down and show us around, tell us the score, enlighten us whatever, why all the secrecy?

    There isn't any secrecy
    In fact

    http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/dublin.html

    The last bit is very interesting
    [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]There are daily public tours of the Freemasons Hall on Molesworth Street, Dublin during the summer, starting on June 12th. Information: 01-6761337 [/FONT]

    God you must feel a bit ridiculous right about now.
    And my point seems to be completely alluding you.

    The Difference is I'm trying to explain my position you're just claiming I don't understand your point without explaining it.
    Thats not true at all you brought up the Jews anyone can read back over what we have typed and will see that plain as day for whatever reason you brought them up.

    Okay.

    Small Sentences. You said
    freemasonry, which has been resisted and viewed with suspicion and contempt throughout history by many people including the church,

    I pointed out that historically the church has viewed groups like the jews with suspicion and contempt, and therefore your argument should be treated with similar dismissal. Nice to go the brown bomber defence.
    Thats pathetic.

    No it's not, it's a little concept called Burden of Proof. And It's sort of y'know, the corner stone of our legal system. You can't accuse someone of a crime, and then demand they prove their innocence.

    You think the Masons are a sinister organisation with ulterior motives. Fine prove it, don't make the claim and demand people disprove it.
    If thats true about the Gardai well then thats wrong. I still dont accept your analogy and never will though. Should it be made law that people serving public office have to declare their membership of a secret society new rules need to be drafted to cover everything including AA.

    This is never going to happen.
    Exactly, now you're getting it. We only have reports they wont come out and set the record straight. Why all the secrecy.

    Well I've just given you their phone number and address, go nuts.
    Thats pricelss thanks for that gave me a chuckle:D Coming from Mr Wiggle change the subject himself, stop at the shop.

    If they werent so secret and sly maybe we would have the answers to those questions. Why all the secrecy? If the hood is all good spread the knowledge and tell us all about it. A high ranking overlord should set the record straight. Stop being sly and secretive in the hood I would say.

    Alternatively you could just go along to a open day. Or join.
    I would disagree.

    Well thats nice, until you explain your rational for disagreeing your argument can be summed up as "Nuh huh....."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fOkx-k8a5c

    JFK was talking about the Soviet Union not the Freemasons. :rolleyes:


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    #132
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    Di0genes wrote: »
    I'm sorry firstly you said

    You're breaking your ****e laughing at me, and then you tell me to get off the stage? Jesus wept.

    Secondly ever heard of an organisation called Opus Dei? Or Youth Defence?

    Neither of those comments are worth an indepth reply.
    There isn't any secrecy
    In fact

    http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/dublin.html

    The last bit is very interesting
    Yeah like they are really going to reveal all the inner workings of this super secret hood on a website no less:D There isnt any secrecy would you please.
    God you must feel a bit ridiculous right about now.
    Not at all actually I feel alive, a lil' tired maybe but ridiculous?? are you on drugs.
    The Difference is I'm trying to explain my position you're just claiming I don't understand your point without explaining it.
    Ive explained my position numerous times you just choose to ignore it thats up to you.
    Okay.

    Small Sentences. You said
    :DGoodman.
    I pointed out that historically the church has viewed groups like the jews with suspicion and contempt, and therefore your argument should be treated with similar dismissal. Nice to go the brown bomber defence.
    In your opinion....
    No it's not, it's a little concept called Burden of Proof. And It's sort of y'know, the corner stone of our legal system. You can't accuse someone of a crime, and then demand they prove their innocence.
    We are talking about a sly secret society here or have you failed to grasp that concept as of yet. Why all the secrecy.
    You think the Masons are a sinister organisation with ulterior motives. Fine prove it, don't make the claim and demand people disprove it.
    Why all the secrecy?
    This is never going to happen.
    Maybe so.
    Well I've just given you their phone number and address, go nuts.
    Do you think if I phoned them they would quote me the oath over the phone? What do you reckon. Will you ring up and ask them for me.
    Alternatively you could just go along to a open day. Or join.
    Why all the secrecy and slying around? Thats what I want to know, why wont they tell us about the oath for example or what each degree entails. Why wont high profile people admit to their membership. Why?
    Well thats nice, until you explain your rational for disagreeing your argument can be summed up as "Nuh huh....."
    Your stooping lower and lower please continue;)
    JFK was talking about the Soviet Union not the Freemasons. :rolleyes:
    Err no, he was talking about secret societies whatever they may be. Are you getting hard of hearing in your old age, listen to it again a spade is a spade.


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    #133
    Di0genes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭Di0genes


    WakeUp wrote: »
    Neither of those comments are worth an indepth reply.

    Why not, sauce for the goose?

    And ultra right wing catholic groups like Youth Defence are similar to Neo Nazi Groups.
    Yeah like they are really going to reveal all the inner workings of this super secret hood on a website no less:D There isnt any secrecy would you please.

    So to be clear, you demanded that they hold a open day, I point out that they do hold a open day, several in fact, and you decide that a open day won't tell you whats going on.


    Not at all actually I feel alive, a lil' tired maybe but ridiculous?? are you on drugs.

    Personal attack. Reported.
    Ive explained my position numerous times you just choose to ignore it thats up to you.

    No you haven't.
    :DGoodman.

    In your opinion....

    No not really the Church's persecution of Jews and Freemasons is well documented.
    We are talking about a sly secret society here or have you failed to grasp that concept as of yet. Why all the secrecy.

    Why all the secrecy?

    You mean it's open days, The fact that they allow tours, membership is open to all religions and creeds, dues are nominal.

    You've been exposed as not knowing the first thing about the organisation you think is suspicious.
    Do you think if I phoned them they would quote me the oath over the phone? What do you reckon. Will you ring up and ask them for me.

    Why don't you. You ring them up, find out the oath, and I can ring them up and confirm it.
    Why all the secrecy and slying around? Thats what I want to know, why wont they tell us about the oath for example or what each degree entails. Why wont high profile people admit to their membership. Why?

    I think we've exposed just how ignorant you are about the Freemasons.
    Your stooping lower and lower please continue;)

    Says the guy who thinks the concept of burden of proof is pathetic.

    Err no, he was talking about secret societies whatever they may be. Are you getting hard of hearing in your old age, listen to it again a spade is a spade.


    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=928_1217456062

    I know the speech I know the context of speech. Listen to the above.


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    #134
    joebucks
    Closed Accounts Posts: 728 ✭✭✭joebucks


    Di0genes wrote: »
    You called it a "secret society" a secret society is by it's very nature concealing it's activities.

    Many of the rituals of the Bullingdon club are secret. They admit to being a dining and drinking club, if that is all they do then why do their other activities remain a secret?

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4985718.ece
    While many of the society's rituals remain secret, joining the Bullingdon Club is known to involve putting up with having your room trashed beyond recognition and seeing your drinking tested beyond all sane boundaries

    And apparently your definition of a secret society is a public drinking club in College, all the way to the Freemasons.

    At what point do they have to admit their allegiance to private clubs. Are social clubs acceptable? Golf clubs? 12 Step programs?

    You are trying to project an opinion on me..

    Clubs where rituals, oaths etc are secret so should be considered a secret society.

    The nature of activities conducted in golf clubs, 12 step programs is not a secret so I would not consider them to be secret societies.


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    #135
    Di0genes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,005 ✭✭✭Di0genes


    joebucks wrote: »
    Many of the rituals of the Bullingdon club are secret. They admit to being a dining and drinking club, if that is all they do then why do their other activities remain a secret?

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4985718.ece

    Sounds like a posh frat boy party to me.



    You are trying to project an opinion on me..

    Clubs where rituals, oaths etc are secret so should be considered a secret society.


    Why?
    The nature of activities conducted in golf clubs, 12 step programs is not a secret so I would not consider them to be secret societies.

    You don't know what goes on behind closed doors.


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    #136
    gizmo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    Hypothetical situation folks, if such a law was enacted and certain politicians announced they were members of the Freemasons, would you vote for them?

    If the answer is no then I think you know why they wouldn't want to admit it.

    On a related note:

    Do you think the Freemasons and other secret societies should be legal?
    Do you think any society should be allowed to be secret?
    If the answer to the above is yes, then do you think elected representatives should be allowed join them?
    And if no, why not?


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    #137
    humanji
    Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    Guys, some of these posts are getting too personal. Cut it out and relax. It's only the internet after all.


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    #138
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    I'm in Belfast at the moment and they had a big open day at the Freemasons hall a few weeks ago. Anyone could wander in and look around.
    namloc1980 wrote: »
    7. TAX FOR ALL: Sounds reasonable but instead of taxing the OAP and the dole surely it would make more sense to just cut those payments by a certain amount instead of having unnecessary tax administration etc - all that money is from the same pot anyway. As for the general idea of taxing low earners tiny amounts and big eaners alot what are the specific proposals?

    Just to add to what namloc said.
    • Ireland’s top 0.5% of earners, the 11,714 people who earned more than €275,000 in a year, paid almost 18% of all income tax, over €2bn in total. Their average tax rate was 27.5%.
    • Almost 770,000 people earned less than €17,000. Understandably, given tax credits, these workers paid a tiny amount of tax, €20m in total. Their average tax rate was about 0.5%.
    • It’s in the middle, though, where things seem to go all screwy. The median earner, earning about €25,000, paid just 4% in income tax! As I argued before, we seem to have got ourselves into a situation where the typical Irish worker pays hardly any income tax and yet seems to think they are heavily taxed.

    http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/07/28/a-little-quiz-on-irelands-income-tax/

    The rich in Ireland are the ones paying by far the largest percentage of tax. So his tax for all will mean the poor and middle classes being taxed way more. Though judging by his videos he's all about going after the rich, the same rich who are already paying the tax.

    The fact remains though the middle classes and the poor are going to have to be taxed a lot more, end of story. As we are fukked.


  • Options
    #139
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    espinolman wrote: »
    :D

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4HdbjDqoZs

    I've watched this video at last. Namaloc made some very good points about the start of it here. I would add a few other things but I'll leave that for now. Though I will say I welcome anyone making positive proposals.

    He's says boards.ie is senile, now I assume he means puerile or infantile. Now depending on where you look on boards.ie this can be true. But to say boards is just puerile is nonsense, After hours is puerile but Politics is not. Boards is a microcosm of society in general so has it's good and bad, funny and serious etc.

    He doesn't seem to like myself or Studiorat's opinions. To be fair he's right we don't know him so we can't/shouldn't say what his motivations are. But it's also fair to say that he doesn't provide any backup for his opinions. From what I've seen so far his facts and figures are often wrong.

    I've mentioned his point about Leinster house already. He openly admits to using a completely different building to make a point. He's correct government buildings does have more windows than Leinster house. However it was also built 150 years after Leinster house and has nothing whatsoever to do with the Earl of Kildare, or the Duke of Leinster. Again he's correct in that there is a big complex of buildings on this site, Leinster House, Government Buildings, The National Museum, The National Library, The Natural History Museum and the National Art Gallery. But only Leinster house has any relevance to the point he's making. The structures on the site were built over a period of 250 years. And let's be very clear about this Government buildings is not the back of Leinster House. This is the back of Leinster House.
    merrion.jpg
    Link to aerial shot of the back of Leinster House marked with a 1, Government building to the left.
    This debate about the buildings is in many ways silly. It's not the main issue I have with his videos but it does prove he has no problem using something less than factual to make a point which is why I brought it up in the first place.

    He was wrong about the students, though I have to admit I was too.


  • Options
    #140
    joebucks
    Closed Accounts Posts: 728 ✭✭✭joebucks


    He's says boards.ie is senile, now I assume he means puerile or infantile.

    He immediately corrected himself in the video for saying that so why you bring it up I don't know.
    Now depending on where you look on boards.ie this can be true. But to say boards is just puerile is nonsense, After hours is puerile but Politics is not. Boards is a microcosm of society in general so has it's good and bad, funny and serious etc.

    Some of the comments on this thread has been extremely puerile. I would include some of my own comments here also. And it is probably the only one he viewed.

    He doesn't seem to like myself or Studiorat's opinions.

    You insinuated that he was a liar and Studiorat made many derogoratory comments about him. DeVore's comment was disgraceful also in my opinion.


  • Options
    #141
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    joebucks wrote: »
    He immediately corrected himself in the video for saying that so why you bring it up I don't know.

    True, not worth mentioning.
    joebucks wrote: »
    Some of the comments on this thread has been extremely puerile. I would include some of my own comments here also. And it is probably the only one he viewed.

    It can happen but most comments are not puerile. He labelled the whole of boards.ie that way which is untrue and unfair.
    joebucks wrote: »
    You insinuated that he was a liar and Studiorat made many derogoratory comments about him. DeVore's comment was disgraceful also in my opinion.

    To be fair I did but I have qualified that since. Well Devore is entitled to his opinion just like our pal JByeats is. And after watching that particular video it's stereotypical CT territory so I won't be surprised if people feel that way about it.

    You didn't mention any of the rest of my post.


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    #142
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    He uses facts completely out of context.

    Mentioning the slave trade and trying to connect to the modern era is plain ignorance on the subject. Daniel O'Connells own brother Maurice was involved in the slave trade. Irelands economy at the time depended on the Slave trade.

    Ships to Africa from Ireland were not allowed. Liverpool in the 1780's turns up the following slave traders with Irish names: Felix Doran, Christopher Butler, Thomas Ryan, James McGauley and David Tuohy. In fact the Irish "working class" were in the very thick of the slave trade. Denmark didn't have the manpower to run their slave so they employed the Irish in their droves. Every single group in Ireland benefitted from the slave trade, not just the landowners.

    To me JB sounds like the typical rant you'd expect from an Eirigi loon.


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    #143
    joebucks
    Closed Accounts Posts: 728 ✭✭✭joebucks


    meglome wrote: »
    It can happen but most comments are not puerile. He labelled the whole of boards.ie that way which is untrue and unfair.

    Yes I agree there is more to board's than this (possible new slogan for the website) . However before he said these things he did did say he didn't know too much about the site and was only going form what he had seen and given that the first thing he read on this site was probably this thread so it is easy to see why one wouldn't want to read much more if this was the general standard of thread.

    Well Devore is entitled to his opinion just like our pal JByeats is. And after watching that particular video it's stereotypical CT territory so I won't be surprised if people feel that way about it.

    Did you read the articles he posted along with that video? The video I posted was over 10 mins long. DeVore replied to my post 8 minutes after I posted the video so unless he had come across said video before then he didn't even give the whole video a full viewing, nevermind investigating the back stroy of the topic at hand. There is a lot of truth in what he said in that video that was covered by the mainstream newspapers. He may have added one or two points for effect but to insinuate he is suffering from some sort of mental illness is not something I would expect from one of the owners of this site.

    You didn't mention any of the rest of my post.

    The point about the picture of Leinster House and is really irrelevant in the context of the whole video. JB was mistaken in this case but a mistake is alot different than a lie..

    Studiorats point about the slave trade is interesting and yourself and Namloc have also brought up some interesting points, but why do you lads not bring up these issues in the first place instead of resorting to insults and misrepresentations of JBs position?


  • Options
    #144
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    joebucks wrote: »
    Yes I agree there is more to board's than this (possible new slogan for the website) . However before he said these things he did did say he didn't know too much about the site and was only going form what he had seen and given that the first thing he read on this site was probably this thread so it is easy to see why one wouldn't want to read much more if this was the general standard of thread.

    You don't see any irony in him criticising Studiorat and I for misrepresenting him while at the same time misrepresenting the whole of boards.ie?
    joebucks wrote: »
    Did you read the articles he posted along with that video? The video I posted was over 10 mins long. DeVore replied to my post 8 minutes after I posted the video so unless he had come across said video before then he didn't even give the whole video a full viewing, nevermind investigating the back stroy of the topic at hand. There is a lot of truth in what he said in that video that was covered by the mainstream newspapers. He may have added one or two points for effect but to insinuate he is suffering from some sort of mental illness is not something I would expect from one of the owners of this site.

    Look I can't speak for Devore but that particular video I find a bit out there myself. Not suggesting all his videos are but I thought that one was. Devore is entitled to his opinion whether he's an owner of this site or not. Like any other post around here if it breaks the rules it should be reported.
    joebucks wrote: »
    The point about the picture of Leinster House and is really irrelevant in the context of the whole video. JB was mistaken in this case but a mistake is alot different than a lie..

    There are two reason I'm pushing this issue. 1. He casually admits to using a different building for effect. Then dismisses it's importance by stating something else that isn't correct. 2. It may be indicative of his fact checking generally and may display a willingness to play fast and loose with the truth to make a point.
    joebucks wrote: »
    Studiorats point about the slave trade is interesting and yourself and Namloc have also brought up some interesting points, but why do you lads not bring up these issues in the first place instead of resorting to insults and misrepresentations of JBs position?

    It really is a fair point and that's exactly what we should have done. But after sitting through many many bullshít videos on the internet my tolerance is low. So when it starts off with info that is incorrect I initially stopped watching.


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    #145
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    meglome wrote: »
    You don't see any irony in him criticising Studiorat and I for misrepresenting him while at the same time misrepresenting the whole of boards.ie?

    I think the real irony is the depth of support he has on the thread here possibly does indicate the certain level of puerility on boards.ie that apparently he's been talking about. Some of the posts on this thread certainly indicates that people are willing to un-questioningly buy into the cliches that JBYeats spews forth whether they are factually correct or not.


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    #146
    joebucks
    Closed Accounts Posts: 728 ✭✭✭joebucks


    meglome wrote: »
    You don't see any irony in him criticising Studiorat and I for misrepresenting him while at the same time misrepresenting the whole of boards.ie?

    Well i don't think you are comparing like with like here. He clearly states that he doesn't know too much about boards.ie and he is only going off what he has seen. And by what he has seen on this thread his assertions would not be too far off. He was also responding to insults he recevied on this thread. I have previously commented on this thread that some of his videos are flawed, however I do not believe that it's like the curate's egg where the flaws ruin the whole point he makes.

    Look I can't speak for Devore but that particular video I find a bit out there myself. Not suggesting all his videos are but I thought that one was.

    As out there as that video may seem, It is based on fact. Irish developers did put forward millions of Euro for repairs to the Vatican. They got medals and a plaque at the Chapel to prove it. The logistics of how it all came together may be exaggerated for effect in the video but FFingers, Seanie FFitz, Sir Peter Sutherland and many of Nama's top developers were involved in the deal as he points out in the video and links.

    There are two reason I'm pushing this issue. 1. He casually admits to using a different building for effect. Then dismisses it's importance by stating something else that isn't correct. 2. It may be indicative of his fact checking generally and may display a willingness to play fast and loose with the truth to make a point.


    Fair enough.


  • Options
    #147
    joebucks
    Closed Accounts Posts: 728 ✭✭✭joebucks


    studiorat wrote: »
    I think the real irony is the depth of support he has on the thread here possibly does indicate the certain level of puerility on boards.ie that apparently he's been talking about. Some of the posts on this thread certainly indicates that people are willing to un-questioningly buy into the cliches that JBYeats spews forth whether they are factually correct or not.

    Some of your own comments included in the puerility?

    In others threads if one were to repeat some of your comments and replace the word Nordie with Israeli, you would be in hysterics over it. Now that is irony.


  • Options
    #148
    studiorat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,408 ✭✭✭studiorat


    joebucks wrote: »
    Some of your own comments included in the puerility?

    In others threads if one were to repeat some of your comments and replace the word Nordie with Israeli, you would be in hysterics over it. Now that is irony.

    You mean to say parts of the North of Ireland aren't provincial and closed off to anyone from outside? Fact is that was my experience of the place pretty much in general. I still maintain JB Yeats is a Sticky of some caste..

    So found anything else interesting in your freemason research?


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    #149
    Duiske
    Registered Users Posts: 3,087 ✭✭✭Duiske


    studiorat wrote: »
    Some of the posts on this thread certainly indicates that people are willing to un-questioningly buy into the cliches that JBYeats spews forth whether they are factually correct or not.

    So, what you spewed forth, ie, your Stickie comment and link, were a factually correct representation of JB's political viewpoint ?


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    #150
    Richard tea
    Registered Users Posts: 3,597 ✭✭✭Richard tea


    Just watched this guys video about the 2 members here:eek: I hope you apologised to him


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  • Options
    #151
    meglome
    Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Richard tea wrote: »
    Just watched this guys video about the 2 members here:eek: I hope you apologised to him

    This the one where he says we misrepresented him in the middle of him misrepresenting the whole of boards.ie?


This discussion has been closed.
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