Landis admits doping, points finger at LA - Please read Mod Warning post 1

ROK ON · 23-05-2010 09:06AM

el tonto wrote: »

If his ex-wife is talking, he's really in the manure business.

I wondered about that. Other than one line in that article its not attributed anywhere else. Now Walsh more than likely has better sources than most, but I wonder about that one.

You never know when the federales are involved.

Junior · 23-05-2010 11:27AM

el tonto wrote: »

If his ex-wife is talking, he's really in the manure business.

She hasn't co-operated previously, one wonders why she'd turn against now ? Will she not get to see the kids etc ?

SACH Central · 23-05-2010 02:03PM

aidan.offbeat wrote: »

Article by David Walsh in the times:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/cycling/article7133884.ece

Another fantastic article by David Walsh. la sure has a lot of 'disgruntled' ex employees. For such a 'nice' guy he really has a habit of pi$$ing off former employees. One can only hope that once the Feds are on the case that the truth will finally come out - whatever the truth is. If he's innocent 'disbelievers' like myself can finally believe in his performances. God knows what will happen to the professional sport of cycling if he found guilty.

Is it just me or is there a deafening silence from the ASO. One has to wonder if anyone else, other than la was named, they would be unceremoniously booted out of the TdF. Of course the implications of the whole affair are wide ranging. All of a sudden you could see Skil-Shimano & Vacansoleil plus a few other on the start line - maybe even the An Post team

bbosco · 23-05-2010 02:09PM

SACH Central wrote: »

Is it just me or is there a deafening silence from the ASO. One has to wonder if anyone else, other than la was named, they would be unceremoniously booted out of the TdF.

But of course Armstrong's favourite line when any allegation appears against him in France is that "Dem nasty cheese-eating surrender monkeys are out to get me again because I keep beating them in their own tour". The reality, as we are seeing now, was always quite the opposite.

Diarmuid · 23-05-2010 02:24PM

Junior wrote: »

She hasn't co-operated previously, one wonders why she'd turn against now ?

A federal investigation has ways of focusing the mind, I'd imagine.

furiousox · 23-05-2010 04:55PM

Was it the '02 tour when Landis was told by Postal to save himself on a mountain stage but finished higher than expected thus earning the silent treatment from LA and Bruyneel at the dinner table that evening?

Makes you wonder if they were pi$$ed at him in case his strong performance spotlighted the team to the anti-doping crews?

drogdub · 23-05-2010 05:08PM

SACH Central wrote: »

Another fantastic article by David Walsh. la sure has a lot of 'disgruntled' ex employees. For such a 'nice' guy he really has a habit of pi$$ing off former employees. One can only hope that once the Feds are on the case that the truth will finally come out - whatever the truth is. If he's innocent 'disbelievers' like myself can finally believe in his performances. God knows what will happen to the professional sport of cycling if he found guilty.

Is it just me or is there a deafening silence from the ASO. One has to wonder if anyone else, other than la was named, they would be unceremoniously booted out of the TdF. Of course the implications of the whole affair are wide ranging. All of a sudden you could see Skil-Shimano & Vacansoleil plus a few other on the start line - maybe even the An Post team

Feck it, if those boards jersey's come in on time maybe a boards.ie team could give it a lash

Slideshowbob · 23-05-2010 05:53PM

If there is no substance to the stuff from FL this week why aint those named threatening to sue him ?????????

Maybe there is somethin in it?!

horizon26 · 23-05-2010 07:14PM

I read the David Walsh piece,its very interesting and if its true Lance Armstrong is a complete and utter scumbag.I have always had a 50/50 view,is he taking drugs is he not.

My only problem with the latest news is the man who is telling it Floyd Landis.Its hard to believe him,Lemond and Kimmage don't like Armstrong for different reasons.Paul Kimmage has just said he thinks its the end for LA.After reading his book,Kimmage has admitted taking drugs I think on two occasions so Kimmage is a doper.

Lemond has forgiven Landis for the things that were said to him.I wonder if Landis didn't come clean and said sorry to Lemond would Lemond accept

his apology I doubt it very much.
But Walsh's article paints a very bad picture for LA JB and if its true Alberto Contador recent wins are suspect as well.There still seems no proof of guilt,but that doesn't mean its not true.

I really don't know if Armstrong has taken drugs,I have always thought he hasn't.If he has he must be caught immediately,the consequences of his actions if guilty should be very sever.Like Marian Jones prison time and a huge fines should apply.

However LA is innocent until then.

petethedrummer · 23-05-2010 09:56PM

horizon26 wrote: »

Kimmage has admitted taking drugs I think on two occasions so Kimmage is a doper.

Kimmage took amphetemines in post season criteriums, which were fixed, just to get him through. He did NOT follow a sophisticated doping program involving EPO, HGH, blood transfusions and steroids in the off season to win 7 tours de france. Nor did he use cortisone for 'saddle sores'. He was also open an honest his two amphetemine tablets in his book.

horizon26 wrote: »

I really don't know if Armstrong has taken drugs

Well the world and his aunt knows it. He has been at it since he was an amateur.

petethedrummer · 23-05-2010 09:59PM

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Maybe there is somethin in it?!

hmmm you reckon??? nooooo surely not. The radioactivity turned him into a cycling super hero like spiderman.

ROK ON · 23-05-2010 10:02PM

petethedrummer wrote: »

He has been at it since he was an amateur.

Really. I thought I read most of the bad stuff/truth about him and the program. But I have not heard that previously - what is your source for that one.
It has been accepted that Pantani doped as a teenager, but simply unaware that it was the case for LA.

iMax · 23-05-2010 10:03PM

Takes some balls to make an accusation like that. Three, in fact.

Slideshowbob · 23-05-2010 10:27PM

petethedrummer wrote: »

hmmm you reckon??? nooooo surely not. The radioactivity turned him into a cycling super hero like spiderman.

Well what is the most conclusive proof we have that LA doped?

FL's admissions are interesting but since then there has been loads of waffle and speculation on cycling forums etc.

Others have not followed up in recent days to back him up.

We won't know any outcomes until and only if those in authority decide to investigate further.

You got proff Allen Lim and Dave Z are tainted apart from FL's allegations this week?

horizon26 · 23-05-2010 10:38PM

petethedrummer wrote: »

Kimmage took amphetamines in post season criteriums, which were fixed, just to get him through. He did NOT follow a sophisticated doping program involving EPO, HGH, blood transfusions and steroids in the off season to win 7 tours de france. Nor did he use cortisone for 'saddle sores'. He was also open an honest his two amphetamine tablets in his book.

Well the world and his aunt knows it. He has been at it since he was an amateur.

Amphetamines were a banned,he took them he is a doper.Just because he didn't follow a sophisticated doping program,and we all know he didn't does not change the fact.

He took a banned performance enhancing drug.The man cheated,how do you know for sure Armstrong has taken steroids,epo and used blood transfusions how?

I am not saying he didn't,but just hearsay is not proof.

RobFowl · 23-05-2010 10:55PM

horizon26 wrote: »

I am not saying he didn't,but just hearsay is not proof.

Kimmage never tested positive either :rolleyes:

And as multiple people giving sworn statements does start to give a convincing body of evidence.....

blorg · 23-05-2010 10:59PM

Anti-congestents like pseudoephedrine (Sudafed) are banned in competion. I have bad hayfever and in summer am streaming it out and snotting it all over the place. However despite being on the stuff daily while touring I avoid it near a race and consequently am known as the guy who is majorly leaking and from a personal point of view it certainly isn't pleasant.

While I avoid it on principle taking something like that is not the same as an organised EPO doping programme designed to win me the tour. It is still a "banned substance."

Taking amphetamines is a step up but doing it to get you through post-tour crits that are essential to a rider's income but really don't matter one jot from a sporting point of view? A lesser crime than doing it to win the Tour. And one he has admitted to.

Pherekydes · 23-05-2010 11:04PM

horizon26 wrote: »

Like Marian Jones prison time and a huge fines should apply.

Marion Jones didn't get jail time for being a doper. It's unlikely any athlete would ever get jail time just for doping. The requirement to convict anyone of doping would be greater than the testimony of a proven and admitted liar. The rules of WADA or any other dope-testing organisation do not imply cheating when a positive test is revealed. They [the rules] cannot imply cheating. Cheating is the deliberate intention to break rules. A positive test cannot imply intent.

For the record, Jones was jailed for fraud, which is almost certainly the fate that will befall Landis.

petethedrummer · 23-05-2010 11:05PM

Off the top of my head:

1. Landis Allegations
2. Stephanie McIllvain Phone conversation with Greg LeMond
3. Bassons incident
4. Steven Swart
5. 99 samples retest
6. Jonathan Vaughters Frankie Andreu IM conversation
7. Back Dated - TUE for cortisone
8. Ex team mates who have been caught, Landis, Hamilton, Heras, Pena, Beltran, Salvoldelli, Joachim ...there's more.
9. His biggest Rivals (Pantani and Ullrich) doped or 'thought about doping' (Basso).
10. Betsy Andreu witnessed the hospital room confession.
11. Association with Dr. Ferrari.
12. Astana Transfusion kits
13. backs out of his tranparency promise.
14. Simeoni Incident.
15. Suspicous 2009 blood values
16. He no longer publishes his blood values in keeping with his opinions of transparency.
17. He also changed a suspicious hematocrit reading on the website, with no explanation.
18. Emma O'Reilly
19. how Much has he actually given to the UCI?? ... for a blood testing machine HA HA HA HA.
20. Could be $500,000.

21. His estimated power on Alpe D'Heuz 2004
Tour+winner+power+to+weight.gif

22. I'll leave the last word to his rice cake baker:
"All I’ll say is that 6.7 watts per kg at threshold is not physiological or humanly possible, unless you’re a hybrid human horse or a grey hound human dog or another species." Allen Lim
http://www.saris.com/athletes/CommentView,guid,37da0f26-ac2e-4f9d-b7f0-37784b1a2ae0.aspx

Edit: I suppose none of it is conclusive. But I don't know of any other athlete with a back story like this. Maybe all these people are lying. Maybe Bassons with the aerobic capacity of Bernard Hinault just wasn't good enough and the two speed peloton was all in his head. We'll see over the next few weeks and months.

petethedrummer · 23-05-2010 11:09PM

horizon26 wrote: »

I am not saying he didn't,but just hearsay is not proof.

In all honesty, why do you think he visited the world's leading blood doping Doctor? Can you give me one reasonable non-doping explanation?

Pherekydes · 23-05-2010 11:12PM

petethedrummer wrote: »

21. His estimated power on Alpe D'Heuz 2004

Nice graph. What it doesn't reveal is how many of those stages were individual time trials. 2004 was. How many of the others were?

horizon26 · 23-05-2010 11:18PM

RobFowl wrote: »

Kimmage never tested positive either :rolleyes:

And as multiple people giving sworn statements does start to give a convincing body of evidence.....

Do you agree that Kimmage is a drug cheat?Multiple sworn statements is very damming I agree.Its not proof LA's explanation's that all these people had different motives is suspicious.If you were taking performance enhancing drugs,how many people would you keep it between.

Lance Armstrong is not a fool,if he was taking drugs how many people would know.I mean he would want more than two to three to know right.seems according to some sworn statements he was very open about his drug taking.

Ok is very hard to hide and anyone can get careless,but it seems the act of a fool to be that open.

petethedrummer · 23-05-2010 11:22PM

Pherekydes wrote: »

Nice graph. What it doesn't reveal is how many of those stages were individual time trials. 2004 was. How many of the others were?

Yes it was an indiviual time trial thats why it is not with the others on the graph. It still shows that a guy who couldn't climb for **** pre-cancer climbing with the 'best' of them.
You can read the author's interpretation of these figures if you don't want to listen to me:
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009/07/tour-de-france-2009-power-estimates.html

petethedrummer · 23-05-2010 11:32PM

ROK ON wrote: »

Really. I thought I read most of the bad stuff/truth about him and the program. But I have not heard that previously - what is your source for that one.
It has been accepted that Pantani doped as a teenager, but simply unaware that it was the case for LA.

Its in Walsh's book, can't find an online reference at the moment.

jwshooter · 23-05-2010 11:34PM

are u guys not bored .

horizon26 · 23-05-2010 11:41PM

jwshooter wrote: »

are u guys not bored .

Fair point,agree to disagree.

petethedrummer · 23-05-2010 11:43PM

jwshooter wrote: »

are u guys not bored .

Not one bit. you could not read the thread, how about that for a solution?

blorg · 24-05-2010 12:15AM

horizon26 wrote: »

Do you agree that Kimmage is a drug cheat?Multiple sworn statements is very damming I agree.Its not proof LA's explanation's that all these people had different motives is suspicious.If you were taking performance enhancing drugs,how many people would you keep it between.

Kimmage has said he took drugs. The point here is that is was so widespread in the peoloton that I think it believable that yes, you would be open with your own teammates as to what the doping program was.

petethedrummer · 24-05-2010 12:34AM

When you need your teammates to lead you out on climbs, destroy the opposition in Team Time Trials and chase down break aways, I'm fairly sure there would have been the odd chat about PEDs.

aidanbike · 24-05-2010 12:35AM

Just read this http://web.mac.com/cebiner/Mr._Cedric_Ebiners_Web/Blank.html

And listen to this

http://53x11.com/docs/greg-lemond-stephanie-mcilvain.mp3

Delusion is not happiness.

Landis admits doping, points finger at LA - Please read Mod Warning post 1

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