Landis admits doping, points finger at LA - Please read Mod Warning post 1

RobFowl

petethedrummer wrote: »

NBC Poll

51.9%
Yes
3,649 votes


48.1%
No
3,388 votes


:eek:

petethedrummer

RobFowl wrote: »

51.9%
Yes
3,649 votes


48.1%
No
3,388 votes


:eek:

Yeah given its an american channel website, the tide seems to have turned. I thought it would be 25% yes 75% no.

Zascar

In one way these scandals are great because they get people interested in it again who might not have followed a race in years. I've only ever had a vague interest in it (more into mtb) but I'm fascinated by this - and it has got me more into the sport itself. However realistically it could be a disaster for the sport all together.

I was taking to a guy yesterday who follows it very closely and has read all the major books etc - I asked his opinion and he said to me: It's like this, if you are a professional cyclist, you are on the juice - simple as that. There may be some guys who are clean, but they are probably at the back. He said if it all came out that everyone is doping, then the sport would be ruined. All the sponsors would pull out and the reputation of all the cyclist and the sport overall would be crushed. So, yes everyone knows it's going on, but everyone including officials etc do everything they can do cover it up as they know it would be the end of them if it came out. Even though there are people who's job it is to stop it, they are hardly going to expose it all and do themselves out of a job. I hear LA is very aggressive towards anyone who tries to challenge him, so will everyone be rallying together to defend him and the sport.

That poll result is interesting, yes its american and its NBC. If the poll was done on this forum, what do you think the results would be? Do you think it will ever really come out or will they just sweep it under the carpet and go on forever with a giant elephant in the room?

bbosco

Captain Havoc wrote: »

I really don't know what to make of all this, convicted doper writes an email to the head of US cycling which is leaked. He really doesn't have any evidence unless he can get that 2001 Tour de Suisse sample retested by an independent tester but maybe he didn't want this to be leaked out. The media and bike forums are having a field day which adding fuel to the fire and obscuring the story. I still don't see anything coming of this.

He didn't just write a mail saying "Yeah, I doped and so did loads of others". He has, apparently, provided a massive amount of detail about his and others' doping activities: who provided the dope, how, when and with whom he took it, how he avoided positive tests. He has offered his 10 years' worth of training diaries with all of the nasty details.
Of course it could still all be BS, but if he does indeed have that sort of detailed information it means that his claims can be substantiated and verified and therefore something could come of this.

Captain Havoc

bbosco wrote: »

He didn't just write a mail saying "Yeah, I doped and so did loads of others". He has, apparently, provided a massive amount of detail about his and others' doping activities: who provided the dope, how, when and with whom he took it, how he avoided positive tests. He has offered his 10 years' worth of training diaries with all of the nasty details.
Of course it could still all be BS, but if he does indeed have that sort of detailed information it means that his claims can be substantiated and verified and therefore something could come of this.

Is that Pat McQuaid with a broom in his hand? I see he's not short of people to hold up that carpet for him either.

bbosco

Captain Havoc wrote: »

Is that Pat McQuaid with a broom in his hand? I see he's not short of people to hold up that carpet for him either.

Fortunately, WADA and the Feds in the US are investigating it. This could end up like BALCO and McQuaid can wield his broom any which way he likes.

Chips Lovell

Interesting piece in the New York Times:

Two people Landis has accused of doping said on Friday that they had been contacted by antidoping officials who had asked them to cooperate with an investigation in exchange for leniency. Those people did not want their names published because they are still deciding if they want to come forward.

So, essentially two people have, off the record, confirmed it is true.

davyjose

It'll be interesting what repercussions Landis will see from this, as well. He's basically admitted to fraud, and swindling donations of over $1million. That surely carries a prison sentence?

Wibbs

a good lawyer might argue stress, mental illness, side effects from the drugs(irony ), the culture of silence the pressure etc. I reckon he'd get off.
If Landis did a oprah tell all, through manly tears and how he's now following christ, he'll be in the clear.

The US has a really strange relationship with drugs of any kind. There's that strange puritanical streak mixed with hedonism. Plus their win at all costs mentality means that even high school footballists are juicing. LA is an american icon. The guy who beat the french at their own game, so its the french out to get him(them). add in the cancer stuff? There'll be a lot of USA USA!! chanting before anything blows up.

davyjose

Wibbs wrote: »

a good lawyer might argue stress, mental illness, side effects from the drugs(irony ), the culture of silence the pressure etc. I reckon he'd get off.
If Landis did a oprah tell all, through manly tears and how he's now following christ, he'll be in the clear.

The US has a really strange relationship with drugs of any kind. There's that strange puritanical streak mixed with hedonism. Plus their win at all costs mentality means that even high school footballists are juicing. LA is an american icon. The guy who beat the french at their own game, so its the french out to get him(them). add in the cancer stuff? There'll be a lot of USA USA!! chanting before anything blows up.

Marion Jones had a 6 month old baby, and was still sent to prison. I'm not so sure Landis would be too lucky. Especially as he tried to use this information to blackmail his way into the Tour of California, before blowing the lid, only when refused.
If i was the bike shop owner who'd donated $25,000 to his cause, I'd be first in line to charge him with a civil suit. I expect a few people are thinking the same.

jman0war

davyjose wrote: »

It'll be interesting what repercussions Landis will see from this, as well. He's basically admitted to fraud, and swindling donations of over $1million. That surely carries a prison sentence?

If we really want to clean up the sport then we have to create a culture where its OK to whistleblow and come forward.
If we punish people who do, nobody will and the status quo remains.

Obviously there's no shortage of folks who'd prefer that.

Mr. Presentable

davyjose wrote: »

Unfortunately, too much about Wiggins' TdF last year raises alarm bells.

Not to mention what he just did today. Big bells

davyjose

jman0war wrote: »

If we really want to clean up the sport then we have to create a culture where its OK to whistleblow and come forward.
If we punish people who do, nobody will and the status quo remains.

Obviously there's no shortage of folks who'd prefer that.

That's well and good, but WADA and the UCI don't control that. They can pat him on the back (WADA might, UCI won't), but will the US federal government accept that he basically swindled millions of dollars?

blorg

Zascar wrote: »

back. He said if it all came out that everyone is doping, then the sport would be ruined. All the sponsors would pull out and the reputation of all the cyclist and the sport overall would be crushed.

I think though this has to happen and yes, in the short term it will be catastrophic but in the longer term the sport will rebuild itself. I'd say most cycling fans with more than a casual interest believe that doping is widespread in the sport and they follow it anyway and will continue to follow it even after such a revelation. I also get the impression that it is only Anglo/northern European countries that even care about the doping being a problem in the first place, I don't think most Spanish or Italian fans are really bothered by it at all.

Zascar wrote: »

That poll result is interesting, yes its american and its NBC. If the poll was done on this forum, what do you think the results would be?

On a knowledgable cyclist-specific forum I'd say at least 70%, probably more, would think that Armstrong doped, but didn't get caught. Irrespective of whether Landis is telling the whole truth with these allegations.

There was a poll here but to be honest the wording on that is a bit off; it is entirely possible to hold the opinion that he is an egomanic, bully and doper but at the same time that he did this when everyone else was and is also a great cyclist, ambassador for the sport and does great work on his cancer charity. In a straight "did Armstrong ever dope?" poll you would see a much higher percentage "Yes" I imagine. Is he doping now? I wouldn't be sure.

IM0

jman0war

davyjose wrote: »

That's well and good, but WADA and the UCI don't control that. They can pat him on the back (WADA might, UCI won't), but will the US federal government accept that he basically swindled millions of dollars?

What do you think they'll do?
You can be done for perjury, although it seems nobody does.
How did he swindle millions of dollars?

davyjose

jman0war wrote: »

What do you think they'll do?
You can be done for perjury, although it seems nobody does.
How did he swindle millions of dollars?

I'm not sure they'll do anything, but he could land himself in hot water. I already made the point, Marion Jones, the track olympic gold winner was jailed for this.

He asked for donations to clear his name, then after making upwards of a million dollars to do so, he says he did cheat. Is that swindling? Or fraud? maybe not, maybe it's not even illegal. I'm pretty sure it might be though.

ednwireland

nipplenuts wrote: »

Not to mention what he just did today. Big bells

what wiggo do ? i saw him in front and the slowing as he wasnt getting away / possibly going to blow

leftism

blorg wrote: »

I think though this has to happen and yes, in the short term it will be catastrophic but in the longer term the sport will rebuild itself. I'd say most cycling fans with more than a casual interest believe that doping is widespread in the sport and they follow it anyway and will continue to follow it even after such a revelation. I also get the impression that it is only Anglo/northern European countries that even care about the doping being a problem in the first place, I don't think most Spanish or Italian fans are really bothered by it at all.

Its crazy how different the attitude is in Europe to doping, and not just your joe-soap armchair cycling fans either.... I was at a sports science convention two years ago and went out drinking with a couple of guys who were presenting papers at the conference. The talk turned to doping and i couldn't believe the attitude that these supposed pillars of the science community had. In my half innebriated state (you know how you can get) i began arguing with them that as scientists, we of all people should be looking for solutions and not just accepting that this is the way things are! The debate got fairly heated and i eventually dropped the subject and went off to get another beer.

I only found out later that i was having an argument with the former Rabobank team physiologist... :eek: (Ooops)

Needless to say i kept a low profile for the rest of that particular convention. :rolleyes:

davyjose

leftism wrote: »

I only found out later that i was having an argument with the former Rabobank team physiologist... :eek: (Ooops)

Needless to say i kept a low profile for the rest of that particular convention. :rolleyes:

Fcuk who he is. You were right. Fair play!

Lumen

GAAAAAH! PLEASE DON'T POST GIRO SPOILERS IN UNRELATED THREADS!!!!!

RobFowl

Lumen wrote: »

GAAAAAH! PLEASE DON'T POST GIRO SPOILERS IN UNRELATED THREADS!!!!!

Stop shouting just use your super powers to delete.............

Lumen

RobFowl wrote: »

Stop shouting just use your super powers to delete.............

If I just deleted then no-one would understand why I was shouting.

RobFowl

Lumen wrote: »

If I just deleted then no-one would understand why I was shouting.

Touche

ednwireland

not my fault i didnt start it

jman0war

davyjose wrote: »

He asked for donations to clear his name, then after making upwards of a million dollars to do so, he says he did cheat. Is that swindling? Or fraud? maybe not, maybe it's not even illegal. I'm pretty sure it might be though.

It will depend on the nuances of the language used.
He may have merely asked for donations to cover his legal bills.
Which doesn't mean he was lying (when asking for donations).

I'm thinking that the sport will let Landis fall on his sword alone.
There are probably too many dirty people in the industry, it's better and easier to maintain the status quo then it is to clean up cycling.

zzzzzzzz

Article by David Walsh in the times:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/cycling/article7133884.ece

The United States Anti-Doping Authority has taken a different line and appointed the federal investigator Jeff Novitzky to the case. Landis and Armstrong’s former wife are understood to be co-operating.

niceonetom

David Walsh wrote:

If Novitzky concludes that US Postal did run a doping programme, Armstrong and others could face charges. Through Tailwind Sports, the US Postal team was funded by taxpayers’ money. The penalties for misusing such funds are draconian.

So, with the allegation of fraud/bribery in Switzerland, that's two jurisdictions where LA could potentially face charges.

niceonetom

Landis and Lemonde reconcile after Landis apologises.

Chips Lovell

aidan.offbeat wrote: »

Article by David Walsh in the times:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/cycling/article7133884.ece

If his ex-wife is talking, he's really in the manure business.