Waterford/Rosslare Strand Railway reaches the buffer stops (again)!

FlameoftheWest · 08-04-2010 2:52pm

JHMEG wrote: »

CIE would never allow someone else to run a service (and show them up) on 'their' train lines. You need to start at the start. Campaign now for the break-up of CIE and the opening up of the rail network to other, competing, operators.

You know the way some scientists like Carl Sagan would say that "if an alien spacecraft landed on the White House lawn the biggest loser would be religion"? I used to think that until I read a quote by Carl Jung who said if aliens came to earth the biggest losers on earth would be our scientists. The aliens would laugh at all their "Laws of This and That" and their hubris that somehow human scientists with their miniscule understanding of the universe have the nerve to state they know how the universe works. So if we are not being told about aliens, chances are it is because of tenured professors and PhDs talking bollox in the world's main universities about "Man Made Climate Change" and "Swine Flu Pandemics" would have a vested interest in keeping the aliens out. We are only allowed their version of "the truth" because their "concensus" keeps them in a job.

That's just what it would be like with a private operator on CIE. It would not so much be showing up the management for what they are BUT THE UNIONS. People would be amazed at a railcar going back and forth all day with no 5 hour gap between "services" and so on.

This is why CIE mnagement and unions have this symbiotic relationship to always take care of each other and never allow a private operator to take the blinkers off the Irish public's eyes. Just look how behaved CIE companies were before and after Luas. Even with the Irish public having nothing peviously to compare Luas to, CIE had to make (for them) radical changes to stop the comuters from whispering inthe woodshed.

CIE and their unions would fund a mercenry army to come over and overthrow the government to protect their monoploy. Jobs for the lads is their only agenda. We are only allowed their version of "the truth" because their "concensus" keeps them in a job.

Southsider1 · 08-04-2010 4:31pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Southsider - at least you're trying to think outside the box unlike the morons in CIE and the Dept.of Transport. This line needs to be retained for its potential rather than because of the pitiful handful of people who refuse to give up using the 'so called' service.

Yes, exactly. It must have potential. If the trains were to operate from when the ferries arrive rather than ten minutes before they arrive. If the trains were to run at suitable commuter times and the prices were right it must work. There's probably various EU grants available for such a service/enterprise. The MK IIIs would be a more pleasant and com fortable train than the dirty rattly crates they're currently using. And theres at least a dozen of them languishing in Waterford.... And another thing: CIE shouldn't be demanding that ALL their services turn a profit. That's the reason they're state owned so that some loss making services are retained for the greater good of the people.... In the UK when they nprivatised the Govt. recognised that not all services would be profitable to they provide the operators with a subvention on the loss makers which comes from the licencing of the profitable ones... Business.... not rocket science!

Judgement Day · 08-04-2010 5:17pm

On Newstalk NOW ....after Ad break!!

Judgement Day · 08-04-2010 5:31pm

Barry Kenny talking total ****e as usual but a typical Newstalk job with neither Barry or Cllr.Joe Ryan in the studio! Bullying ****e from Barry as usual. Interrupting at every opportunity. When tackled on zero marketing of the line Barry said he had been on local radio.....ffs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If only I could get into a studio with him I would tear him to shreds. I have tried but so far to no avail. :mad:Head of Communications - what sort of ****e title is that, he's just a jumped up little goods clerk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dowlingm · 08-04-2010 6:04pm

Southsider1 wrote: »

CIE shouldn't be demanding that ALL their services turn a profit. That's the reason they're state owned so that some loss making services are retained for the greater good of the people....

Southsider1, I think CIE would settle for any of the services being profitable. Remember, IE loses ~200m, gets ~200m in govt subsidy and cross-subsidy from CIE and then declares a "surplus" or a small "loss".

Seriously, go to the IE website and download the Annual Report (PDF) and read the accounts. It's not like I'm making this up.

Summary of FY2008 over 2007 - revenue down, costs up, government subsidy cut, cross-subsidy from CIE (basically a cost on the rest of the Group) up.

God only knows what 2009 will look like with the impact of Broadmeadow on passenger and Tara traffic and the general continuation of the economic downturn.

Page 20 of the PDF.
FY2008 Revenue after Exceptionals: 221.476m
FY2008 Costs: 422.492m
FY2008 Surplus/Deficit* before Government Subvention: -203.769m
FY2008 Government PSO payment: 181.152m
FY2008 Government Safety Payment: 12.466m
FY2008 CIE payment: 10.000m
FY2008 Surplus/Deficit: -0.151m

FY2007 Revenue: 230.250m
FY2007 Costs: 419.566m
FY2007 Surplus/Deficit* before Government Subvention: -193.759m
FY2007 Government PSO payment: 189.910m
FY2007 Government Safety Payment: 13.580m
FY2007 CIE payment: 5.000m
FY2007 Release of liability provisions: 13.397m
FY2007 Surplus/Deficit: +28.128m

* Not = Revenue after Exceptionals-Costs. A few million in profit on disposals, loss on interest payments etc. not included, but are in the S/DbGS number.

coolperson05 · 08-04-2010 6:33pm

To be totally honest, if the line isn't getting the passengers then change the service...I travel alot to Dublin from Waterford and a later service each way would be benefical.
Also perhaps commuter routes like Waterford to Kilkenny at high frequencies could work as theres no really reliable bus route and alot of traffic goes either way...Simple ideas to maybe make some cash!

Southsider1 · 08-04-2010 6:37pm

Fair enough DOWLINGM I accept what you say. I would, however, point out that they did huge works in the 2006/7 and 8 financial years. Ongoing upgrade at Heuston and Connolly and new stations and tracks on the commuter lines into Dublin. Also I would reiterate that, while CIE should be operated at a profit if possible, it's more important that it provides a service to ALL or at least as many of the population as is reasonable. If they don't then a certain portion of the subvention should be given to those who will. Furthermore, it needs a change of Management - sadly Michael O'Leary is busy elsewhere!! - someone who will cut through all the bullsh1t and waste and clean it up. They have a relatively good product, a good (although needs tweaks) infrastructure. Probably, like all the public sector, has too many staff. And from what I can see of the timetables thye need to be wiped clean and start again. This time making sure that the various trains join up so that if people can't get to a destination direct then, at least, they're not sitting on a platform somewhere for hours.

I see a bright future for some sort of co-op to take over the line from Rosslare/Wexford right up to Galway and getting the portion of subvention that CIE get for it. with fresh Management, free of the sh1t that Mr Kenny et al are clogged up with and with a whole new staff of drivers, engineers and admin/customer service staff - Non unionised - it could/ should work.

Sorry, I've gone on a bit!

Bards · 08-04-2010 6:40pm

coolperson05 wrote: »

To be totally honest, if the line isn't getting the passengers then change the service...I travel alot to Dublin from Waterford and a later service each way would be benefical.
Also perhaps commuter routes like Waterford to Kilkenny at high frequencies could work as theres no really reliable bus route and alot of traffic goes either way...Simple ideas to maybe make some cash!

Wrong Service - this is not about the Dublin to Waterford Train.

read the title of the thread for a clue perhaps

dowlingm · 08-04-2010 7:07pm

I disagree - the least that people in Waterford should be demanding is that in the event this cut stands, the reduction be reallocated to Southeastern services that might make money, not just cut outright.

For example - the train that arrives in ex-Limerick Junction at 2027 could be sent express to Carlow to meet the last train leaving for Dublin. This would make the last train to Dublin 2030, not 1820 as at present. If the arrival from LJ could be accelerated due to more aggressive timetabling, then the service could stop in Kilkenny, offering something to both Waterford-Kilkenny and Kilkenny-Dublin users, as long as a punctual and hasslefree transfer was maintained in Carlow. If the equipment returned, then the last train Dublin-Waterford is now 2010, not 1835. Once that is done, the next step would be figuring out how to get a Carlow-Waterford train in before 0900.

Intensification of Dublin-Waterford is tricky since the freight traffic takes up paths too but the answer should be to add passing track (like the CWR sections laid from Waterford-Rosslare) and not throw up our hands.

Southsider1 · 08-04-2010 7:12pm

dowlingm wrote: »

Intensification of Dublin-Waterford is tricky since the freight traffic takes up paths too but the answer should be to add passing track (like the CWR sections laid from Waterford-Rosslare) and not throw up our hands.

But, is there any freight traffic anymore?

KC61 · 08-04-2010 7:15pm

Liner and timber traffic Ballina-Waterford and v.v.

Judgement Day · 08-04-2010 7:30pm

dowlingm wrote: »

I disagree - the least that people in Waterford should be demanding is that in the event this cut stands, the reduction be reallocated to Southeastern services that might make money, not just cut outright.

For example - the train that arrives in ex-Limerick Junction at 2027 could be sent express to Carlow to meet the last train leaving for Dublin. This would make the last train to Dublin 2030, not 1820 as at present. If the arrival from LJ could be accelerated due to more aggressive timetabling, then the service could stop in Kilkenny, offering something to both Waterford-Kilkenny and Kilkenny-Dublin users, as long as a punctual and hasslefree transfer was maintained in Carlow. If the equipment returned, then the last train Dublin-Waterford is now 2010, not 1835. Once that is done, the next step would be figuring out how to get a Carlow-Waterford train in before 0900.

Intensification of Dublin-Waterford is tricky since the freight traffic takes up paths too but the answer should be to add passing track (like the CWR sections laid from Waterford-Rosslare) and not throw up our hands.

I disagree, the redeployment of stock from the closed Waterford/Rosslare section is a red herring of the worst sort - just the sort of crap Barry Kenny would come up with to justify the closure. No personal slur on your goodself intended.

kingstapler · 08-04-2010 7:37pm

dowlingm wrote: »

I disagree - the least that people in Waterford should be demanding is that in the event this cut stands, the reduction be reallocated to Southeastern services that might make money, not just cut outright.

For example - the train that arrives in ex-Limerick Junction at 2027 could be sent express to Carlow to meet the last train leaving for Dublin. This would make the last train to Dublin 2030, not 1820 as at present. If the arrival from LJ could be accelerated due to more aggressive timetabling, then the service could stop in Kilkenny, offering something to both Waterford-Kilkenny and Kilkenny-Dublin users, as long as a punctual and hasslefree transfer was maintained in Carlow. If the equipment returned, then the last train Dublin-Waterford is now 2010, not 1835. Once that is done, the next step would be figuring out how to get a Carlow-Waterford train in before 0900.

Intensification of Dublin-Waterford is tricky since the freight traffic takes up paths too but the answer should be to add passing track (like the CWR sections laid from Waterford-Rosslare) and not throw up our hands.

The least you would expect is for the savings to be passed onto the south east, you are absolutely right.

coolperson05 · 08-04-2010 7:39pm

Exactly! I also agree with other users comments of a Waterford to Wexford train (even onto the Dublin Connolly line) which would encourage people to come to Waterford from the east coast and provide another outlet to Dublin.

In fairness, theres a bus almost every hour to Cork from Waterford, and a select few trains that happen to pass by Kilkenny...a far bigger outlet of commuters I would have thought...
The service shouldn't just be cancelled, but rethought about how we could better link the south and east of Ireland...

But i do apologise, i didn't mean to digress from the forum topic!

kingstapler · 08-04-2010 7:41pm

I sometimes wonder should committees be set up to specifially look at transport needs in a particular region. Waterford has much potential. It could become a regional hub if things were done correctly. The Suir Valley railway, the IE lines, the bus services and reopened New Ross line (perhaps using light rail, people mover style vehicles) could allow the city to thrive. I think though that the fact the Waterford station is on the wrong side of the river makes it difficult to ever fully centralise the system. If CIE had a greater imagination instead of just doing things the same old way they've always done it then lines like the one to Rosslare could become major components of a regional transport system.

coolperson05 · 08-04-2010 7:45pm

But surely a better City bus service in Waterford could easily solve such problems...Most, if not every, bus in Waterford comes to the Quays...if they just extended buses to the train stations, which has been recently upgraded with additional space, plenty for a bus stop, then people could hop on. No-one has a problem in Dublin getting on the luas at heuston, and then people could go to WIT, City Centre, Dunmore Rd area...I think IE's cancellation should be a wake up call for the rail service...Waterford with Wexford, Kilkenny, West Waterford, Tipperary and Limerick could thrive with proper planning...unfortunately, we're not in Dublin!

kingstapler · 08-04-2010 8:26pm

coolperson05 wrote: »

But surely a better City bus service in Waterford could easily solve such problems...Most, if not every, bus in Waterford comes to the Quays...if they just extended buses to the train stations, which has been recently upgraded with additional space, plenty for a bus stop, then people could hop on. No-one has a problem in Dublin getting on the luas at heuston, and then people could go to WIT, City Centre, Dunmore Rd area...I think IE's cancellation should be a wake up call for the rail service...Waterford with Wexford, Kilkenny, West Waterford, Tipperary and Limerick could thrive with proper planning...unfortunately, we're not in Dublin!

You are very right, it would be great the bus service was better in the city. Another problem is that the Bus Eireann long distance terminal is far away from the station, the transport in the city is very disjointed. In the north they have a thing were they combine the two, Bangor is like that, and the Europa Bus station in Belfast city is in the same place as one of the train stations. Really you have to promote transport and make it easier with seemless connections to get people to use. With the right links the Waterford to Rosslare train could do very well. We need a more imaginative government and transport provider. But as you said coolperson05, even something as simple as a better city bus service would help.

DWCommuter · 08-04-2010 9:03pm

kingstapler wrote: »

I sometimes wonder should committees be set up to specifially look at transport needs in a particular region.

You're right.

In my submission to the then DTA and now the NTA:rolleyes:, I proposed that outside of Dublin, regional transport authorities should be established to develop transport solutions for those regions. Of course thats far too sensible for Irish politicians who are generally inept at learning about matters before they spout off.

Overall I'm deeply disappointed by the response to this closure. With respect to the campaign in the south east, they are doing their best, but they probably lack the knowledge of how IE work and how to deal with them effectively. But it does take a very committed approach and research to handle them.

I'm really disappointed with Rail Users Ireland. Their response has been so poor that it embarasses me to say that I was a founding member. They previously held a profile that was strong enough to mount a very vocal media response to this. One that would have nailed Irish Rail on key issues. When closures where rife in the 60s and 70s there was no organised national response. In creating the Platform 11/Rail Users Ireland brand, the intention was to provide an informed and alternative response to poor decision making by both Irish Rail and Government in relation to rail matters. It worked astoundingly well, despite the detractors/controversy and embarrased Irish Rail on numerous occasions. But the fuel tank appears empty over at RUI HQ. The main issue now is keeping the line open, not designing a whole set of plans to make it state of the art. Firstly, expose Irish Rail and their blatant mismanagment of the line. The media don't want boring old bull****. They want controversy. They want someone to spell out the truth to Barry Kenny in a head strong manner and with confidence. Bring it to such a head that closing it is not an option in the short term. Then start talking about methods to make the line better.

In all the interviews Ive heard with Barry Kenny about this line, he just shoots down the opposition because he knows that either they don't know all the facts or they won't be confident enough to but in and interupt him while he's on the spin doctor crusade.

Now I'm sure there's loads of you hear thinking that I'm blowing my own trumpet blah blah blah. If you are then feck off, because I know what I'm talking about as I was perhaps the first person to consistantly appear in the media in opposition to Barry Kenny and I can tell you now, I never lost one argument with him and he never shouted me down or interupted me. Sometimes you have to use non PC tactics and just go for the jugular. But I'm not seeing any of that this time.

Judgement Day · 08-04-2010 9:18pm

In fairness Cllr.Joe Ryan did well against the little prick on Newstalk tonight but he is not fully up to speed on railways but is learning fast as he goes along. What's needed is a concentrated media campaign getting to the root of the matter and every time that Kenny trots out the 25 passenger ****e he needs to be asked why and not let get away with it. Anybody hearing Kenny and not knowing what has been going on down on the Limerick Junction/Rosslare line for four decades (!) now will of course think that CIE/IE are justified in closing the line due to poor ridership.

Hungerford · 08-04-2010 9:49pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

Sometimes you have to use non PC tactics and just go for the jugular. But I'm not seeing any of that this time.

Interestingly, one of the earliest newspaper articles on the piece in the Sunday Tribune went for the jugular but the campaigners never really followed up on the points mentioned in the piece. :rolleyes:

Bards · 08-04-2010 9:53pm

The Greens need to answer questions too if this line is closed. IR need to run commuter trains at times that will make them convenient to passengers and not just to IR Staff. Why are the new trains on the Western Corridor timetabled correctly,while the S.E ones are not?

L1011 · 08-04-2010 9:57pm

Bards wrote: »

The Greens need to answer questions too if this line is closed. IR need to run commuter trains at times that will make them convenient to passengers and not just to IR Staff. Why are the new trains on the Western Corridor timetabled correctly,while the S.E ones are not?

Are they? Last leaves far too early, I seem to recall.

DWCommuter · 08-04-2010 10:21pm

Hungerford wrote: »

Interestingly, one of the earliest newspaper articles on the piece in the Sunday Tribune went for the jugular but the campaigners never really followed up on the points mentioned in the piece. :rolleyes:

You mean this one?

Rail closure plans set FF and Greens on collision course

Ken Griffin
IARNRÓD éireann's plans to embark on its first railway closures since the 1970s look set to cause a further rift between Fianna Fáil and the Green Party.

Green Party TD Ciaran Cuffe has indicated that his party will oppose the closures, which will sever direct railway links between the country's main southern population centres.

If the plans go ahead in full, rail passengers from Waterford would have to go via Dublin to reach Cork, Limerick and Wexford.

The company confirmed last week it was considering shutting the Waterford-Rosslare line but the Sunday Tribune has learned that the company has also held talks with the Department of Transport regarding the closure of the Waterford-Limerick line and the Nenagh commuter branch.

These lines will close if the company fails in its attempts to "explore lower-cost operations and maintain services".

The plan has the support of the department but the Greens are concerned by the plans with Cuffe telling the Sunday Tribune that the lines played an important role in the party vision of providing a comprehensive railway service.

"Any change to the rail network must be done on the basis of sound social, environmental and economic analysis. Routes that are currently under-used may benefit from improved timetables, rosters and marketing."

Iarnród éireann's plans are likely to meet opposition from rail campaigners, who accuse it of deliberately undermining the financial viability of lines that it wants to close.

This newspaper has learned that railway services on the Waterford-Rosslare line are now so poor that Iarnród éireann spent €30,000 on taxi fares in 2009 to ferry staff between the two locations.

A company spokesman said the suspension of services on the Waterford-Rosslare line would generate substantial cost savings.

"The line serves areas with very low populations," he said.

Fine Gael transport spokesman Fergus O'Dowd said the issue would be top of his party's agenda once the Dáil resumed after the St Patrick's Day break.

"I am concerned that the Green Party could be a party to the closure of transport services which reduce carbon emissions," he said.

He said he was shocked to learn of the talks between Iarnród Éireann and the Department of Transport.

"It's a joke. They seem to think they are unaccountable to the travelling public and the Dáil," said O'Dowd.

Good article and Ken can only work with what he's given. But there is so much more dirt to fling at IE in relation to the issue and one has to be unrelenting in the use of print, radio and TV media.

Anyway, Im just offering opinion on what it takes to make inroads on these guys. They prey on ignorance and always have. I have to admit though I sometimes wish I was still involved in things, just to have a real go at Barry Kenny about this issue. But then again I thought the successors would have the balls. Obviously not.:rolleyes:

Judgement Day · 08-04-2010 10:30pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

You mean this one?

Good article and Ken can only work with what he's given. But there is so much more dirt to fling at IE in relation to the issue and one has to be unrelenting in the use of print, radio and TV media.

Anyway, Im just offering opinion on what it takes to make inroads on these guys. They prey on ignorance and always have. I have to admit though I sometimes wish I was still involved in things, just to have a real go at Barry Kenny about this issue. But then again I thought the successors would have the balls. Obviously not.:rolleyes:

Good post DW - looks like Ken Griffin would be worth contacting. That was some savage post by you on RUI tonight - I note that although your post was at 17.15 and MG is online he hasn't managed a reply.

Regards Plumb Loco.

DWCommuter · 08-04-2010 10:46pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Good post DW - looks like Ken Griffin would be worth contacting. That was some savage post by you on RUI tonight - I note that although your post was at 17.15 and MG is online he hasn't managed a reply.

Regards Plumb Loco.

It was the truth. They'll probably have to discuss it at length before I get a reply/ban or it will be ignored in an attempt to discourage me. Either way I couldn't give a fiddlers F... what they think. Since I left, RUI has gone down the pan. I wish it hadn't. It would be great to see them at the forefront of this closure issue, but they're not. Pity. What did I say again....oh yeah...they are a talking shop and an Irish Rail lab rat.:D

I better shut up now because I've just discovered that a mod here is actually on their committee. How cool is that.:eek:

FlameoftheWest · 09-04-2010 12:36am

DWCommuter wrote: »

I better shut up now because I've just discovered that a mod here is actually on their committee. How cool is that.:eek:

Really, that's a GIGANTIC conflict of interest. But not surprising really.

Isn't this the same Victor "I ban, therefore I am" Mod who demands everyone else show their credentials in the Conflicts of Interest thread?

Priceless. But hardly surprising really...

Zoney · 09-04-2010 12:39am

kingstapler wrote: »

You are very right, it would be great the bus service was better in the city. Another problem is that the Bus Eireann long distance terminal is far away from the station, the transport in the city is very disjointed. In the north they have a thing were they combine the two, Bangor is like that, and the Europa Bus station in Belfast city is in the same place as one of the train stations.

In fairness a number of stations in the Republic are like that too: Galway, Limerick, Sligo, Ennis. It certainly does make for far more useful public transport options, although Limerick city bus services are not particularly integrated with the bus/railway station.

For Cork at least it is only a short walk although it is annoying that the stations are so close but yet not close enough to avoid hassle!

I don't entirely understand your point though, as from what I remember, the Bus Éireann coaches leave from just round the corner of the main entrance of the railway station. Unless they've moved it - it was a good number of years ago I last travelled by bus from there. From what I remember, the *city* bus services did indeed leave elsewhere, from across the river.

KC61 · 09-04-2010 12:58am

Zoney wrote: »

In fairness a number of stations in the Republic are like that too: Galway, Limerick, Sligo, Ennis. It certainly does make for far more useful public transport options, although Limerick city bus services are not particularly integrated with the bus/railway station.

For Cork at least it is only a short walk although it is annoying that the stations are so close but yet not close enough to avoid hassle!

I don't entirely understand your point though, as from what I remember, the Bus Éireann coaches leave from just round the corner of the main entrance of the railway station. Unless they've moved it - it was a good number of years ago I last travelled by bus from there. From what I remember, the *city* bus services did indeed leave elsewhere, from across the river.

Bus Eireann moved the bus station in Waterford several years ago to the quayside on the south side of the river adjacent to the city centre. They did this because:

1) The old bus station site was too small;

and

2) There were huge numbers of complaints from customers that the old bus station was too far away from the city centre, on the far side of the river.

Both of these arguments are valid - but what is needed is a city bus service terminating at the railway station to offer a connection from trains to the city centre and with W.I.T.

JHMEG · 09-04-2010 1:12am

Zoney wrote: »

Unless they've moved it - it was a good number of years ago I last travelled by bus from there. From what I remember, the *city* bus services did indeed leave elsewhere, from across the river.

They did move it. It's half way between the Clock Tower (where most of the city bus services leave from) and Rice Bridge, on the opposite side of the river to the train station.

Our man in Havana · 09-04-2010 1:27am

JHMEG wrote: »

They did move it. It's half way between the Clock Tower (where most of the city bus services leave from) and Rice Bridge, on the opposite side of the river to the train station.

It is in an absolutely terrible location.

KC61 · 09-04-2010 9:12am

Bond-007 wrote: »

It is in an absolutely terrible location.

But one that is far more convenient to customers working in the city or going to W.I.T. than the old location beside the railway station on the far side of the river.

KC61 · 09-04-2010 9:21am

Southsider1 wrote: »

No. you can't book Rosslare - Limerick Junction tickets online - at least I don't think you can Last night I called the station and was quoted 45 each way. It was actually only 45 return. Still steep though??

Just a quick update on this. I did some further investigating, and can tell you that you were overcharged.

The day saver fare from Waterford to Limerick Junction is only EUR 10.80. The 5 day return from Limerick Junction to Thurles is EUR 17.30, so the total that you should have been charged was EUR 28.10. The booking clerk should have checked this.

There are exceptionally low promotional fares on the line from Rosslare to Limerick. However, they are mainly between stations on that route and also to stations south of Limerick Junction (Waterford-Cork is EUR 20 day return), together with journeys from Carrick-on-Suir, Clonmel, Cahir and Tipperary to Dublin, which are only EUR 24 day return.

Unfortunately the promotional fares do not stretch to intermediate stations north of Limerick Junction, but the booking clerk should still have the cop on to check whether issuing two separate tickets would have been cheaper than issuing the standard 5-day return. This is part of the problem with this railway line. There are exceptionally good value fares available but you cannot find out about them easily.

JHMEG · 09-04-2010 10:40am

Bond-007 wrote: »

It is in an absolutely terrible location.

It is, mainly because they dis-integrated transport in Waterford. There is no connection between local buses, rail and BE buses now.

When the bus and train stations were seperated, a shuttle bus between the two should have been provided. Cheaper again, and more desireable, would have been to just run a shuttle bus from the Clock Tower to the existing, combined bus and rail station.

Ironically I think the only service which crosses the river to the train station (but doesn't serve it) side is not CIE-run.

KC61 · 09-04-2010 10:56am

JHMEG wrote: »

It is, mainly because they dis-integrated transport in Waterford. There is no connection between local buses, rail and BE buses now.

When the bus and train stations were seperated, a shuttle bus between the two should have been provided. Cheaper again, and more desireable, would have been to just run a shuttle bus from the Clock Tower to the existing, combined bus and rail station.

Ironically I think the only service which crosses the river to the train station (but doesn't serve it) side is not CIE-run.

That's JJ Kavanagh's city service (branded as Kenneally's). They've had that licence for years. Timetables is at:

http://www.jjkavanagh.ie/images/stories/timetable/Waterford-City-Service.pdf

There are also four buses on Bus Eireann's Waterford/Tramore route that DO continue to the railway station.
http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1202386860-360.pdf

Incidentally Suirway's local services to Dunmore East, Portlaw, and Passage East also start from the Quay.
http://www.suirway.com/timetables.html

JHMEG · 09-04-2010 11:09am

KC61 wrote: »

But one that is far more convenient to customers working in the city

Not far more convenient. Slightly more convenient. It's still on the wrong side of a busy 4-lane road at the wrong end of the quays.

KC61 wrote: »

or going to W.I.T.

Irrelevant. The local bus services students use to go to WIT go from the Clock Tower, further down the quay. They don't use the Bus Station, and never did. (Apart the odd bus that met a train, but this seems to have been stopped)

JHMEG · 09-04-2010 11:16am

KC61 wrote: »

There are also four buses on Bus Eireann's Waterford/Tramore route that DO continue to the railway station.

People that use that service tend to get on it at Railway Square (terminus of the old Waterford-Tramore line), not bus or rail station. (Tradition?)

KC61 wrote: »

Incidentally Suirway's local services to Dunmore East, Portlaw, and Passage East also start from the Quay.

Along with local city services run by BE, both of which have been there for at least 20 years.

The bus station is way up the quay from the above.

(EDIT: Waterford has the longest inland quay in Europe.)

Judgement Day · 09-04-2010 11:37am

Transportuser09 wrote: »

I've yet to see any indication that Irish Rail are discussing a heritage line with the RPSI, they just suggested it be used as a heritage line, no group was mentioned. I wouldn't say that they mean the railtour either tbh. I'd agree though that keeping it as a heritage route seems unlikely.

Here is the proof - a letter straight from the Big Dick.

Judgement Day · 09-04-2010 11:49am

A letter - unpublished - that I sent to the Irish Times eight years ago. Possibly Madam didn't like being referred to as Sir, but the points turned out to be fairly accurate. Captain John Lynch still firmly at the tiller with the good ship CIE heading straight for the rocks.

Judgement Day · 09-04-2010 12:21pm

Lots of interesting information on cost/passengers numbers etc. from the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport 2002 CIE presentation on 19/11/2002 which I referred to in my IT letter.

http://www.gov.ie/committees-29/c-publicenterprise/20021119-J/Page1.htm#1

KC61 · 09-04-2010 12:23pm

JHMEG wrote: »

Not far more convenient. Slightly more convenient. It's still on the wrong side of a busy 4-lane road at the wrong end of the quays.

I would suggest that it's more convenient than the railway station on the far side of the river from where customers have to cross a busy 4 lane road and a very windswept bridge.

I am not trying to argue with you here. I think that the city bus service to WIT should terminate at the rail station and offer a full connection to/from the city centre. The railway station is too remote and some form of bus shuttle would be a welcome initiative, similar to route 5 in Cork.

My reference to students going to/from WIT was made with those travelling into Waterford on one of Bus Eireann's local services and connecting - not those using the city service to start with.

KC61 · 09-04-2010 12:25pm

JHMEG wrote: »

People that use that service tend to get on it at Railway Square (terminus of the old Waterford-Tramore line), not bus or rail station. (Tradition?)

Along with local city services run by BE, both of which have been there for at least 20 years.

The bus station is way up the quay from the above.

(EDIT: Waterford has the longest inland quay in Europe.)

I was only pointing out that fact that four services from Tramore continue to the rail station., but are only FROM Tramore - bizarrely nothing starts at the station going to Tramore!

KenGriffin · 09-04-2010 1:25pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Good post DW - looks like Ken Griffin would be worth contacting.

I normally only lurk here occasionally but I would like to reassure everyone that I am in regular touch with all parties regarding this issue.

Obviously, as Derek points out, my coverage is constrained by the arguments put forward by either side and space considerations.

jkmanc1974 · 09-04-2010 2:16pm

KC61 wrote: »

Just a quick update on this. I did some further investigating, and can tell you that you were overcharged.

The day saver fare from Waterford to Limerick Junction is only EUR 10.80. The 5 day return from Limerick Junction to Thurles is EUR 17.30, so the total that you should have been charged was EUR 28.10. The booking clerk should have checked this.

There are exceptionally low promotional fares on the line from Rosslare to Limerick. However, they are mainly between stations on that route and also to stations south of Limerick Junction (Waterford-Cork is EUR 20 day return), together with journeys from Carrick-on-Suir, Clonmel, Cahir and Tipperary to Dublin, which are only EUR 24 day return.

Unfortunately the promotional fares do not stretch to intermediate stations north of Limerick Junction, but the booking clerk should still have the cop on to check whether issuing two separate tickets would have been cheaper than issuing the standard 5-day return. This is part of the problem with this railway line. There are exceptionally good value fares available but you cannot find out about them easily.

Looking for a price from Dublin to Clonmel on Tuesday, cheapest is 42 Euro on line!!!!

Brgds
Johnny

KC61 · 09-04-2010 2:28pm

jkmanc1974 wrote: »

Looking for a price from Dublin to Clonmel on Tuesday, cheapest is 42 Euro on line!!!!

Brgds
Johnny

The promotional fares are only available from the stations on the route itself, i.e. Rosslare Harbour-Limerick Junction.

They are not available online, nor are they valid from Dublin Heuston - only in the opposite direction.

Classic Irish Rail.

JHMEG · 09-04-2010 3:09pm

KC61 wrote: »

I would suggest that it's more convenient than the railway station on the far side of the river from where customers have to cross a busy 4 lane road and a very windswept bridge.

And I agree, but it's not hugely more convenient. The more I think about it I'm starting to think the Bus Station was only built because the country was awash with money and building stuff was in vogue. It wasn't the optimal solution.

KC61 wrote: »

My reference to students going to/from WIT was made with those travelling into Waterford on one of Bus Eireann's local services and connecting - not those using the city service to start with.

As I write this from Waterford I notice that the college has upgraded its car parking facilities, again. It was badly served by an irregular bus service 20 years ago.. you reap what you sow I guess.

dowlingm · 09-04-2010 3:38pm

There is no justification for not permitting the booking of on-line fares in all categories, except retaining justification for manned booking offices.

Booking offices should not be manned, stations should be. An IR employee walking the platforms, assisting with TVMs and where the TVM breaks down opening up the booking office to issue tickets.

This South Wexford bus replacement thing really needs watching, especially what route the replacement takes, since as I pointed out you can't take a standard BE bus from Campile to Waterford except via New Ross because the ferry can't take it. If the bus is a failure and withdrawn, this just means abandonment of the catchment rather than going back to trains.

This is a link being ripped out of the IE network both operationally in terms of a back door from the frequently closed Wicklow line and in terms of being able to make cross-radial connections. If CIE actually operated a single website where you could make the most convenient connection/fare by bus or train to anywhere in the country, such as bus Rosslare-Waterford and then onward by train to Carlow or Limerick it would be one thing but instead people are being pushed to the bus which is a direct competitor with no benefit to the train operation.

dowlingm · 09-04-2010 3:41pm

JHMEG wrote: »

As I write this from Waterford I notice that the college has upgraded its car parking facilities, again.

They probably got a capital grant to do that. They wouldn't get a penny to subvent BE to increase frequency, and it would probably get tied up in a tendering mess.

Ireland's cities need Transportation Authorities with route licencing (but not operator licencing) powers and the ability to accept co-payments from industries and institutions who would prefer to spend money on more buses than more car parking/taxing those who just tarmac more land.

Hungerford · 09-04-2010 4:29pm

Just one small thing that CIE seem to have forgotten - I think they need to tender for a bus sub-contractor to take over the service on the route:

Under EC 1370/2007:

The selection of a subcontractor by the competent authority or its internal operator needs to be carried out in accordance with Community law.

I suspect that the contract may well be worth over €50,000 per year, which would require IE to advertise it throughout Europe. Remember they had to do that for the Malahide viaduct.

Hungerford · 09-04-2010 4:44pm

Another interesting point: the Acts regulating the NTA make no reference to public consultation or notice periods - the NTA can change PSOs at will. Surely that's totally illegal under EU law?

Southsider1 · 09-04-2010 6:09pm

KC61 wrote: »

The promotional fares are only available from the stations on the route itself, i.e. Rosslare Harbour-Limerick Junction.

They are not available online, nor are they valid from Dublin Heuston - only in the opposite direction.

Classic Irish Rail.

There is no ticket office at Rosslare Harbour is there? If so where? Also I found out last week that you can't buy a ticket for any station on the Tipperary to Rosslare line from the machines at Heuston or Limerick Junction.

Waterford/Rosslare Strand Railway reaches the buffer stops (again)!

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