Waterford/Rosslare Strand Railway reaches the buffer stops (again)!

KC61 · 08-04-2010 7:15pm

Liner and timber traffic Ballina-Waterford and v.v.

Judgement Day · 08-04-2010 7:30pm

dowlingm wrote: »

I disagree - the least that people in Waterford should be demanding is that in the event this cut stands, the reduction be reallocated to Southeastern services that might make money, not just cut outright.

For example - the train that arrives in ex-Limerick Junction at 2027 could be sent express to Carlow to meet the last train leaving for Dublin. This would make the last train to Dublin 2030, not 1820 as at present. If the arrival from LJ could be accelerated due to more aggressive timetabling, then the service could stop in Kilkenny, offering something to both Waterford-Kilkenny and Kilkenny-Dublin users, as long as a punctual and hasslefree transfer was maintained in Carlow. If the equipment returned, then the last train Dublin-Waterford is now 2010, not 1835. Once that is done, the next step would be figuring out how to get a Carlow-Waterford train in before 0900.

Intensification of Dublin-Waterford is tricky since the freight traffic takes up paths too but the answer should be to add passing track (like the CWR sections laid from Waterford-Rosslare) and not throw up our hands.

I disagree, the redeployment of stock from the closed Waterford/Rosslare section is a red herring of the worst sort - just the sort of crap Barry Kenny would come up with to justify the closure. No personal slur on your goodself intended.

kingstapler · 08-04-2010 7:37pm

dowlingm wrote: »

I disagree - the least that people in Waterford should be demanding is that in the event this cut stands, the reduction be reallocated to Southeastern services that might make money, not just cut outright.

For example - the train that arrives in ex-Limerick Junction at 2027 could be sent express to Carlow to meet the last train leaving for Dublin. This would make the last train to Dublin 2030, not 1820 as at present. If the arrival from LJ could be accelerated due to more aggressive timetabling, then the service could stop in Kilkenny, offering something to both Waterford-Kilkenny and Kilkenny-Dublin users, as long as a punctual and hasslefree transfer was maintained in Carlow. If the equipment returned, then the last train Dublin-Waterford is now 2010, not 1835. Once that is done, the next step would be figuring out how to get a Carlow-Waterford train in before 0900.

Intensification of Dublin-Waterford is tricky since the freight traffic takes up paths too but the answer should be to add passing track (like the CWR sections laid from Waterford-Rosslare) and not throw up our hands.

The least you would expect is for the savings to be passed onto the south east, you are absolutely right.

coolperson05 · 08-04-2010 7:39pm

Exactly! I also agree with other users comments of a Waterford to Wexford train (even onto the Dublin Connolly line) which would encourage people to come to Waterford from the east coast and provide another outlet to Dublin.

In fairness, theres a bus almost every hour to Cork from Waterford, and a select few trains that happen to pass by Kilkenny...a far bigger outlet of commuters I would have thought...
The service shouldn't just be cancelled, but rethought about how we could better link the south and east of Ireland...

But i do apologise, i didn't mean to digress from the forum topic!

kingstapler · 08-04-2010 7:41pm

I sometimes wonder should committees be set up to specifially look at transport needs in a particular region. Waterford has much potential. It could become a regional hub if things were done correctly. The Suir Valley railway, the IE lines, the bus services and reopened New Ross line (perhaps using light rail, people mover style vehicles) could allow the city to thrive. I think though that the fact the Waterford station is on the wrong side of the river makes it difficult to ever fully centralise the system. If CIE had a greater imagination instead of just doing things the same old way they've always done it then lines like the one to Rosslare could become major components of a regional transport system.

coolperson05 · 08-04-2010 7:45pm

But surely a better City bus service in Waterford could easily solve such problems...Most, if not every, bus in Waterford comes to the Quays...if they just extended buses to the train stations, which has been recently upgraded with additional space, plenty for a bus stop, then people could hop on. No-one has a problem in Dublin getting on the luas at heuston, and then people could go to WIT, City Centre, Dunmore Rd area...I think IE's cancellation should be a wake up call for the rail service...Waterford with Wexford, Kilkenny, West Waterford, Tipperary and Limerick could thrive with proper planning...unfortunately, we're not in Dublin!

kingstapler · 08-04-2010 8:26pm

coolperson05 wrote: »

But surely a better City bus service in Waterford could easily solve such problems...Most, if not every, bus in Waterford comes to the Quays...if they just extended buses to the train stations, which has been recently upgraded with additional space, plenty for a bus stop, then people could hop on. No-one has a problem in Dublin getting on the luas at heuston, and then people could go to WIT, City Centre, Dunmore Rd area...I think IE's cancellation should be a wake up call for the rail service...Waterford with Wexford, Kilkenny, West Waterford, Tipperary and Limerick could thrive with proper planning...unfortunately, we're not in Dublin!

You are very right, it would be great the bus service was better in the city. Another problem is that the Bus Eireann long distance terminal is far away from the station, the transport in the city is very disjointed. In the north they have a thing were they combine the two, Bangor is like that, and the Europa Bus station in Belfast city is in the same place as one of the train stations. Really you have to promote transport and make it easier with seemless connections to get people to use. With the right links the Waterford to Rosslare train could do very well. We need a more imaginative government and transport provider. But as you said coolperson05, even something as simple as a better city bus service would help.

DWCommuter · 08-04-2010 9:03pm

kingstapler wrote: »

I sometimes wonder should committees be set up to specifially look at transport needs in a particular region.

You're right.

In my submission to the then DTA and now the NTA:rolleyes:, I proposed that outside of Dublin, regional transport authorities should be established to develop transport solutions for those regions. Of course thats far too sensible for Irish politicians who are generally inept at learning about matters before they spout off.

Overall I'm deeply disappointed by the response to this closure. With respect to the campaign in the south east, they are doing their best, but they probably lack the knowledge of how IE work and how to deal with them effectively. But it does take a very committed approach and research to handle them.

I'm really disappointed with Rail Users Ireland. Their response has been so poor that it embarasses me to say that I was a founding member. They previously held a profile that was strong enough to mount a very vocal media response to this. One that would have nailed Irish Rail on key issues. When closures where rife in the 60s and 70s there was no organised national response. In creating the Platform 11/Rail Users Ireland brand, the intention was to provide an informed and alternative response to poor decision making by both Irish Rail and Government in relation to rail matters. It worked astoundingly well, despite the detractors/controversy and embarrased Irish Rail on numerous occasions. But the fuel tank appears empty over at RUI HQ. The main issue now is keeping the line open, not designing a whole set of plans to make it state of the art. Firstly, expose Irish Rail and their blatant mismanagment of the line. The media don't want boring old bull****. They want controversy. They want someone to spell out the truth to Barry Kenny in a head strong manner and with confidence. Bring it to such a head that closing it is not an option in the short term. Then start talking about methods to make the line better.

In all the interviews Ive heard with Barry Kenny about this line, he just shoots down the opposition because he knows that either they don't know all the facts or they won't be confident enough to but in and interupt him while he's on the spin doctor crusade.

Now I'm sure there's loads of you hear thinking that I'm blowing my own trumpet blah blah blah. If you are then feck off, because I know what I'm talking about as I was perhaps the first person to consistantly appear in the media in opposition to Barry Kenny and I can tell you now, I never lost one argument with him and he never shouted me down or interupted me. Sometimes you have to use non PC tactics and just go for the jugular. But I'm not seeing any of that this time.

Judgement Day · 08-04-2010 9:18pm

In fairness Cllr.Joe Ryan did well against the little prick on Newstalk tonight but he is not fully up to speed on railways but is learning fast as he goes along. What's needed is a concentrated media campaign getting to the root of the matter and every time that Kenny trots out the 25 passenger ****e he needs to be asked why and not let get away with it. Anybody hearing Kenny and not knowing what has been going on down on the Limerick Junction/Rosslare line for four decades (!) now will of course think that CIE/IE are justified in closing the line due to poor ridership.

Hungerford · 08-04-2010 9:49pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

Sometimes you have to use non PC tactics and just go for the jugular. But I'm not seeing any of that this time.

Interestingly, one of the earliest newspaper articles on the piece in the Sunday Tribune went for the jugular but the campaigners never really followed up on the points mentioned in the piece. :rolleyes:

Bards · 08-04-2010 9:53pm

The Greens need to answer questions too if this line is closed. IR need to run commuter trains at times that will make them convenient to passengers and not just to IR Staff. Why are the new trains on the Western Corridor timetabled correctly,while the S.E ones are not?

L1011 · 08-04-2010 9:57pm

Bards wrote: »

The Greens need to answer questions too if this line is closed. IR need to run commuter trains at times that will make them convenient to passengers and not just to IR Staff. Why are the new trains on the Western Corridor timetabled correctly,while the S.E ones are not?

Are they? Last leaves far too early, I seem to recall.

DWCommuter · 08-04-2010 10:21pm

Hungerford wrote: »

Interestingly, one of the earliest newspaper articles on the piece in the Sunday Tribune went for the jugular but the campaigners never really followed up on the points mentioned in the piece. :rolleyes:

You mean this one?

Rail closure plans set FF and Greens on collision course

Ken Griffin
IARNRÓD éireann's plans to embark on its first railway closures since the 1970s look set to cause a further rift between Fianna Fáil and the Green Party.

Green Party TD Ciaran Cuffe has indicated that his party will oppose the closures, which will sever direct railway links between the country's main southern population centres.

If the plans go ahead in full, rail passengers from Waterford would have to go via Dublin to reach Cork, Limerick and Wexford.

The company confirmed last week it was considering shutting the Waterford-Rosslare line but the Sunday Tribune has learned that the company has also held talks with the Department of Transport regarding the closure of the Waterford-Limerick line and the Nenagh commuter branch.

These lines will close if the company fails in its attempts to "explore lower-cost operations and maintain services".

The plan has the support of the department but the Greens are concerned by the plans with Cuffe telling the Sunday Tribune that the lines played an important role in the party vision of providing a comprehensive railway service.

"Any change to the rail network must be done on the basis of sound social, environmental and economic analysis. Routes that are currently under-used may benefit from improved timetables, rosters and marketing."

Iarnród éireann's plans are likely to meet opposition from rail campaigners, who accuse it of deliberately undermining the financial viability of lines that it wants to close.

This newspaper has learned that railway services on the Waterford-Rosslare line are now so poor that Iarnród éireann spent €30,000 on taxi fares in 2009 to ferry staff between the two locations.

A company spokesman said the suspension of services on the Waterford-Rosslare line would generate substantial cost savings.

"The line serves areas with very low populations," he said.

Fine Gael transport spokesman Fergus O'Dowd said the issue would be top of his party's agenda once the Dáil resumed after the St Patrick's Day break.

"I am concerned that the Green Party could be a party to the closure of transport services which reduce carbon emissions," he said.

He said he was shocked to learn of the talks between Iarnród Éireann and the Department of Transport.

"It's a joke. They seem to think they are unaccountable to the travelling public and the Dáil," said O'Dowd.

Good article and Ken can only work with what he's given. But there is so much more dirt to fling at IE in relation to the issue and one has to be unrelenting in the use of print, radio and TV media.

Anyway, Im just offering opinion on what it takes to make inroads on these guys. They prey on ignorance and always have. I have to admit though I sometimes wish I was still involved in things, just to have a real go at Barry Kenny about this issue. But then again I thought the successors would have the balls. Obviously not.:rolleyes:

Judgement Day · 08-04-2010 10:30pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

You mean this one?

Good article and Ken can only work with what he's given. But there is so much more dirt to fling at IE in relation to the issue and one has to be unrelenting in the use of print, radio and TV media.

Anyway, Im just offering opinion on what it takes to make inroads on these guys. They prey on ignorance and always have. I have to admit though I sometimes wish I was still involved in things, just to have a real go at Barry Kenny about this issue. But then again I thought the successors would have the balls. Obviously not.:rolleyes:

Good post DW - looks like Ken Griffin would be worth contacting. That was some savage post by you on RUI tonight - I note that although your post was at 17.15 and MG is online he hasn't managed a reply.

Regards Plumb Loco.

DWCommuter · 08-04-2010 10:46pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Good post DW - looks like Ken Griffin would be worth contacting. That was some savage post by you on RUI tonight - I note that although your post was at 17.15 and MG is online he hasn't managed a reply.

Regards Plumb Loco.

It was the truth. They'll probably have to discuss it at length before I get a reply/ban or it will be ignored in an attempt to discourage me. Either way I couldn't give a fiddlers F... what they think. Since I left, RUI has gone down the pan. I wish it hadn't. It would be great to see them at the forefront of this closure issue, but they're not. Pity. What did I say again....oh yeah...they are a talking shop and an Irish Rail lab rat.:D

I better shut up now because I've just discovered that a mod here is actually on their committee. How cool is that.:eek:

FlameoftheWest · 09-04-2010 12:36am

DWCommuter wrote: »

I better shut up now because I've just discovered that a mod here is actually on their committee. How cool is that.:eek:

Really, that's a GIGANTIC conflict of interest. But not surprising really.

Isn't this the same Victor "I ban, therefore I am" Mod who demands everyone else show their credentials in the Conflicts of Interest thread?

Priceless. But hardly surprising really...

Zoney · 09-04-2010 12:39am

kingstapler wrote: »

You are very right, it would be great the bus service was better in the city. Another problem is that the Bus Eireann long distance terminal is far away from the station, the transport in the city is very disjointed. In the north they have a thing were they combine the two, Bangor is like that, and the Europa Bus station in Belfast city is in the same place as one of the train stations.

In fairness a number of stations in the Republic are like that too: Galway, Limerick, Sligo, Ennis. It certainly does make for far more useful public transport options, although Limerick city bus services are not particularly integrated with the bus/railway station.

For Cork at least it is only a short walk although it is annoying that the stations are so close but yet not close enough to avoid hassle!

I don't entirely understand your point though, as from what I remember, the Bus Éireann coaches leave from just round the corner of the main entrance of the railway station. Unless they've moved it - it was a good number of years ago I last travelled by bus from there. From what I remember, the *city* bus services did indeed leave elsewhere, from across the river.

KC61 · 09-04-2010 12:58am

Zoney wrote: »

In fairness a number of stations in the Republic are like that too: Galway, Limerick, Sligo, Ennis. It certainly does make for far more useful public transport options, although Limerick city bus services are not particularly integrated with the bus/railway station.

For Cork at least it is only a short walk although it is annoying that the stations are so close but yet not close enough to avoid hassle!

I don't entirely understand your point though, as from what I remember, the Bus Éireann coaches leave from just round the corner of the main entrance of the railway station. Unless they've moved it - it was a good number of years ago I last travelled by bus from there. From what I remember, the *city* bus services did indeed leave elsewhere, from across the river.

Bus Eireann moved the bus station in Waterford several years ago to the quayside on the south side of the river adjacent to the city centre. They did this because:

1) The old bus station site was too small;

and

2) There were huge numbers of complaints from customers that the old bus station was too far away from the city centre, on the far side of the river.

Both of these arguments are valid - but what is needed is a city bus service terminating at the railway station to offer a connection from trains to the city centre and with W.I.T.

JHMEG · 09-04-2010 1:12am

Zoney wrote: »

Unless they've moved it - it was a good number of years ago I last travelled by bus from there. From what I remember, the *city* bus services did indeed leave elsewhere, from across the river.

They did move it. It's half way between the Clock Tower (where most of the city bus services leave from) and Rice Bridge, on the opposite side of the river to the train station.

Our man in Havana · 09-04-2010 1:27am

JHMEG wrote: »

They did move it. It's half way between the Clock Tower (where most of the city bus services leave from) and Rice Bridge, on the opposite side of the river to the train station.

It is in an absolutely terrible location.

KC61 · 09-04-2010 9:12am

Bond-007 wrote: »

It is in an absolutely terrible location.

But one that is far more convenient to customers working in the city or going to W.I.T. than the old location beside the railway station on the far side of the river.

KC61 · 09-04-2010 9:21am

Southsider1 wrote: »

No. you can't book Rosslare - Limerick Junction tickets online - at least I don't think you can Last night I called the station and was quoted 45 each way. It was actually only 45 return. Still steep though??

Just a quick update on this. I did some further investigating, and can tell you that you were overcharged.

The day saver fare from Waterford to Limerick Junction is only EUR 10.80. The 5 day return from Limerick Junction to Thurles is EUR 17.30, so the total that you should have been charged was EUR 28.10. The booking clerk should have checked this.

There are exceptionally low promotional fares on the line from Rosslare to Limerick. However, they are mainly between stations on that route and also to stations south of Limerick Junction (Waterford-Cork is EUR 20 day return), together with journeys from Carrick-on-Suir, Clonmel, Cahir and Tipperary to Dublin, which are only EUR 24 day return.

Unfortunately the promotional fares do not stretch to intermediate stations north of Limerick Junction, but the booking clerk should still have the cop on to check whether issuing two separate tickets would have been cheaper than issuing the standard 5-day return. This is part of the problem with this railway line. There are exceptionally good value fares available but you cannot find out about them easily.

JHMEG · 09-04-2010 10:40am

Bond-007 wrote: »

It is in an absolutely terrible location.

It is, mainly because they dis-integrated transport in Waterford. There is no connection between local buses, rail and BE buses now.

When the bus and train stations were seperated, a shuttle bus between the two should have been provided. Cheaper again, and more desireable, would have been to just run a shuttle bus from the Clock Tower to the existing, combined bus and rail station.

Ironically I think the only service which crosses the river to the train station (but doesn't serve it) side is not CIE-run.

KC61 · 09-04-2010 10:56am

JHMEG wrote: »

It is, mainly because they dis-integrated transport in Waterford. There is no connection between local buses, rail and BE buses now.

When the bus and train stations were seperated, a shuttle bus between the two should have been provided. Cheaper again, and more desireable, would have been to just run a shuttle bus from the Clock Tower to the existing, combined bus and rail station.

Ironically I think the only service which crosses the river to the train station (but doesn't serve it) side is not CIE-run.

That's JJ Kavanagh's city service (branded as Kenneally's). They've had that licence for years. Timetables is at:

http://www.jjkavanagh.ie/images/stories/timetable/Waterford-City-Service.pdf

There are also four buses on Bus Eireann's Waterford/Tramore route that DO continue to the railway station.
http://www.buseireann.ie/pdf/1202386860-360.pdf

Incidentally Suirway's local services to Dunmore East, Portlaw, and Passage East also start from the Quay.
http://www.suirway.com/timetables.html

JHMEG · 09-04-2010 11:09am

KC61 wrote: »

But one that is far more convenient to customers working in the city

Not far more convenient. Slightly more convenient. It's still on the wrong side of a busy 4-lane road at the wrong end of the quays.

KC61 wrote: »

or going to W.I.T.

Irrelevant. The local bus services students use to go to WIT go from the Clock Tower, further down the quay. They don't use the Bus Station, and never did. (Apart the odd bus that met a train, but this seems to have been stopped)

JHMEG · 09-04-2010 11:16am

KC61 wrote: »

There are also four buses on Bus Eireann's Waterford/Tramore route that DO continue to the railway station.

People that use that service tend to get on it at Railway Square (terminus of the old Waterford-Tramore line), not bus or rail station. (Tradition?)

KC61 wrote: »

Incidentally Suirway's local services to Dunmore East, Portlaw, and Passage East also start from the Quay.

Along with local city services run by BE, both of which have been there for at least 20 years.

The bus station is way up the quay from the above.

(EDIT: Waterford has the longest inland quay in Europe.)

Judgement Day · 09-04-2010 11:37am

Transportuser09 wrote: »

I've yet to see any indication that Irish Rail are discussing a heritage line with the RPSI, they just suggested it be used as a heritage line, no group was mentioned. I wouldn't say that they mean the railtour either tbh. I'd agree though that keeping it as a heritage route seems unlikely.

Here is the proof - a letter straight from the Big Dick.

Judgement Day · 09-04-2010 11:49am

A letter - unpublished - that I sent to the Irish Times eight years ago. Possibly Madam didn't like being referred to as Sir, but the points turned out to be fairly accurate. Captain John Lynch still firmly at the tiller with the good ship CIE heading straight for the rocks.

Judgement Day · 09-04-2010 12:21pm

Lots of interesting information on cost/passengers numbers etc. from the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport 2002 CIE presentation on 19/11/2002 which I referred to in my IT letter.

http://www.gov.ie/committees-29/c-publicenterprise/20021119-J/Page1.htm#1

KC61 · 09-04-2010 12:23pm

JHMEG wrote: »

Not far more convenient. Slightly more convenient. It's still on the wrong side of a busy 4-lane road at the wrong end of the quays.

I would suggest that it's more convenient than the railway station on the far side of the river from where customers have to cross a busy 4 lane road and a very windswept bridge.

I am not trying to argue with you here. I think that the city bus service to WIT should terminate at the rail station and offer a full connection to/from the city centre. The railway station is too remote and some form of bus shuttle would be a welcome initiative, similar to route 5 in Cork.

My reference to students going to/from WIT was made with those travelling into Waterford on one of Bus Eireann's local services and connecting - not those using the city service to start with.

Waterford/Rosslare Strand Railway reaches the buffer stops (again)!

Comments