Waterford/Rosslare Strand Railway reaches the buffer stops (again)!

DWCommuter

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/iarnrod-eireann-under-pressure-to-reverse-decision-to-close-line-453076.html

End of the month being mentioned now.

Southsider1

I was talking to a IE guy last night and he says the only savings will be on the train fuel. No staff are being made redundant. So what's that all about?

DWCommuter

Southsider1 wrote: »

I was talking to a IE guy last night and he says the only savings will be on the train fuel. No staff are being made redundant. So what's that all about?

They offer voluntary redundancy or redeployment. They closed down fastrack in Heuston and Connolly. I knew the staff. They all stayed on and got redeployed. Quite where the savings happened is beyond me.

The only savings bar fuel would probably be maintenence costs, which judging by the state of the line isnt very high. All the IE crap is just that - Crap. They are closing it out of indifference and perhaps in a cynical attempt to make savings on the Government subsidy side of things. Waterford - Lime junct and Ballybrophy - Killonan will be next.

Southsider1

So, I had a totally hairbrained thought this morning....

The locals in Cork bought a ferry when the Cork Swansea ferry co. pulled out and it's actually going to make a profit this year....

There's a load of the old MKIII carriages idle in Waterford. Would it be viable to lease a few of these and a couple of Engines from IE and run a service from Wexford to, say, Limerick or even be REALLY mad and go as far as Galway? Are there subsidies available for such a scheme? Would local tourist/enterprise boards/chambers of commerce support such a mad idea.... Or is it such a mad idea? I'm told CIE are planning to scrap the carriages and they're allegedly in very good condition..... Mad or what? Suggestions please?

Our man in Havana

Southsider1 wrote: »

So, I had a totally hairbrained thought this morning....

The locals in Cork bought a ferry when the Cork Swansea ferry co. pulled out and it's actually going to make a profit this year....

There's a load of the old MKIII carriages idle in Waterford. Would it be viable to lease a few of these and a couple of Engines from IE and run a service from Wexford to, say, Limerick or even be REALLY mad and go as far as Galway? Are there subsidies available for such a scheme? Would local tourist/enterprise boards/chambers of commerce support such a mad idea.... Or is it such a mad idea? I'm told CIE are planning to scrap the carriages and they're allegedly in very good condition..... Mad or what? Suggestions please?

First find out how much it costs to keep the Barrow Bridge maintained. Then find out what the insurance is on a structure like that.

Southsider1

Well, I would expect that an operator would have to lease the line or pay a service charge to the line owner - in this case the line (I believe) is owned by the old Sealink company. The line owners would be responsible for the bridge and it's insurance. The bridge will have to be insured by them anyway as it will be used as part of the proposed vintage railway.

Transportuser09

DWCommuter wrote: »

The only savings bar fuel would probably be maintenence costs, which judging by the state of the line isnt very high. All the IE crap is just that - Crap. They are closing it out of indifference and perhaps in a cynical attempt to make savings on the Government subsidy side of things. Waterford - Lime junct and Ballybrophy - Killonan will be next.

Exactly. And if the line has to be put under a care and maintainence program surely they'll have to spend some degree of money on it anyway. You can't imagine they'll be saving that much in the grand scheme of things. Part of it will probably be kept open to Belview for container traffic anyway.

Hungerford

Dear Hungerford,

With reference to CIE's plans to shut the Waterford-Rosslare line and place it under care and maintanance, what other lines are under said regime?

Yours,
A Reader

There are several. Kingscourt to Navan closed in 2001 and is a sparkling example of care and maintanence:



As you can see the company has expertly maintained the mainline connection - remember folks this is an open railway.



Of course, other lines are just as expertly maintained. In fact, staff working on the Tralee-Fenit line [still officially open] perform miracles on a daily basis as they maintain the track running beneath the shopping centre in the distance.

Judgement Day

Southsider1 wrote: »

Well, I would expect that an operator would have to lease the line or pay a service charge to the line owner - in this case the line (I believe) is owned by the old Sealink company. The line owners would be responsible for the bridge and it's insurance. The bridge will have to be insured by them anyway as it will be used as part of the proposed vintage railway.

Southsider - at least you're trying to think outside the box unlike the morons in CIE and the Dept.of Transport. This line needs to be retained for its potential rather than because of the pitiful handful of people who refuse to give up using the 'so called' service. And, for the last time, the line belongs to the the Fishguard & Rosslare Railway & Harbours Company which also owns Fishguard and Rosslare ports and is jointly owned by CIE and Stena Line. As has been referred to elsewhere there are are some very strange goings on at Board level in this company including one of the CIE appointed directors who has been dismissed from his job in CIE.
Clearly, the line has no future under CIE/IE control - neither does the rest of the Irish railway system but where do you go? In the short term the line needs to be operated by a third party with IE maintaining the infrastructure and meeting the insurance costs. In the longer term even the maintenance would need to be put out to tender.
As DW Commuter has pointed out if CIE/IE get away with this closure it will be Limerick/Ballybrophy; Limerick Junction/Waterford and the Ballina branch in the firing line.

Transportuser09

I'd agree that in an ideal world the powers that be might start thinking outside the box. Theres examples in the UK of 'community railways', which sometimes are part heritage, but also provide a local transport service. But, aside from that, its baffling how no attempt has been made to increase services on the line. I believe there has been no regular middle of the day service since the 90s.

Zoney

As far as I'm concerned, the issue is not so much the withdrawal of a service, but rather that withdrawal is likely to mean closing the line rather than merely not having a scheduled service on it.

That is the real issue that is unacceptable.

DWCommuter

Transportuser09 wrote: »

Exactly. And if the line has to be put under a care and maintainence program surely they'll have to spend some degree of money on it anyway. You can't imagine they'll be saving that much in the grand scheme of things. Part of it will probably be kept open to Belview for container traffic anyway.

Their record on care and maintenence is shambolic. They don't care and they don't maintain. Tonnes of blatant examples around the country. Considering the existing state of the line, it will be unworkable very quickly after closure.

Im amazed that the campaign down there hasn't written to the other Directors of the FRRHC in the UK.

Our man in Havana

And if the line has to be put under a care and maintainence program surely they'll have to spend some degree of money on it anyway

They won't spend a penny on it.

Very soon after closure, the line will become overgrown with weeds. Also the Barrow Bridge will loose its certification to carry traffic. Once this happens there will be no way back.

Judgement Day

Hungerford wrote: »

Dear Hungerford,

With reference to CIE's plans to shut the Waterford-Rosslare line and place it under care and maintanance, what other lines are under said regime?

Yours,
A Reader

There are several. Kingscourt to Navan closed in 2001 and is a sparkling example of care and maintanence:



As you can see the company has expertly maintained the mainline connection - remember folks this is an open railway.



Of course, other lines are just as expertly maintained. In fact, staff working on the Tralee-Fenit line [still officially open] perform miracles on a daily basis as they maintain the track running beneath the shopping centre in the distance.

Hungerford - your pics don't do justice to CIE/IE's high standards of care and maintenance.

Judgement Day

Bond-007 wrote: »

They won't spend a penny on it.

Very soon after closure, the line will become overgrown with weeds. Also the Barrow Bridge will loose its certification to carry traffic. Once this happens there will be no way back.

And the lifting span of the bridge will be removed and dumped alongside its sister bridge from the Suir crossing in Waterford.
DW - who are the other UK directors??

JHMEG

Southsider1 wrote: »

So, I had a totally hairbrained thought this morning....

The locals in Cork bought a ferry when the Cork Swansea ferry co. pulled out and it's actually going to make a profit this year....

There's a load of the old MKIII carriages idle in Waterford. Would it be viable to lease a few of these and a couple of Engines from IE and run a service from Wexford to, say, Limerick or even be REALLY mad and go as far as Galway? Are there subsidies available for such a scheme? Would local tourist/enterprise boards/chambers of commerce support such a mad idea.... Or is it such a mad idea? I'm told CIE are planning to scrap the carriages and they're allegedly in very good condition..... Mad or what? Suggestions please?

CIE would never allow someone else to run a service (and show them up) on 'their' train lines. You need to start at the start. Campaign now for the break-up of CIE and the opening up of the rail network to other, competing, operators.

DWCommuter

Judgement Day wrote: »

DW - who are the other UK directors??

V. Goodwin - Possibly Vic Goodwin - Stena Lines route director.
M. Murphy - Possibly Micheal Murphy from Irish Rail.
Ian Jamieson - I think he's the route operations and services manager for stena line.

Two directors from each company looks likely. But the actual identity of the names is unverified.

Judgement Day

JHMEG wrote: »

CIE would never allow someone else to run a service (and show them up) on 'their' train lines. You need to start at the start. Campaign now for the break-up of CIE and the opening up of the rail network to other, competing, operators.

And just to make sure they have scrapped nearly every suitable carriage and locomotive. Good old CIE! Cash In Everything

dowlingm

Love that the Examiner put a picture of a Mark 4 set beside a story about this line

Is this bus going to be a minibus? The Ballyhack ferry doesn't take full size buses and the alternate route is farcical.

IE have a total monopoly of operating equipment and networks. This means that a decision to withdraw service is by its nature a death sentence for the line itself. Until the government decides to split train operations from network to make the network operator accountable for the condition of lines without service, this kind of thing is going to continue.

As for the Mark3 idea, as I pointed out previously when BE withdraws from a route they don't get to close the road or forbid anyone else from applying for a route licence. This is the case with IE. The only option for a new entrant to sidestep the protectionism is for a crossborder route which falls under EU rules which is no help here.

Hopefully the locals are making the new minister (Sean Connick, who before getting his seal deplored the notion of closure) feel the heat on this.

dowlingm

Judgement Day wrote: »

And just to make sure they have scrapped nearly every suitable carriage and locomotive. Good old CIE! Cash In Everything

NIR might have spare 111s and Gatwicks once the Class 4000s arrive

FlameoftheWest

JHMEG wrote: »

CIE would never allow someone else to run a service (and show them up) on 'their' train lines. You need to start at the start. Campaign now for the break-up of CIE and the opening up of the rail network to other, competing, operators.

You know the way some scientists like Carl Sagan would say that "if an alien spacecraft landed on the White House lawn the biggest loser would be religion"? I used to think that until I read a quote by Carl Jung who said if aliens came to earth the biggest losers on earth would be our scientists. The aliens would laugh at all their "Laws of This and That" and their hubris that somehow human scientists with their miniscule understanding of the universe have the nerve to state they know how the universe works. So if we are not being told about aliens, chances are it is because of tenured professors and PhDs talking bollox in the world's main universities about "Man Made Climate Change" and "Swine Flu Pandemics" would have a vested interest in keeping the aliens out. We are only allowed their version of "the truth" because their "concensus" keeps them in a job.

That's just what it would be like with a private operator on CIE. It would not so much be showing up the management for what they are BUT THE UNIONS. People would be amazed at a railcar going back and forth all day with no 5 hour gap between "services" and so on.

This is why CIE mnagement and unions have this symbiotic relationship to always take care of each other and never allow a private operator to take the blinkers off the Irish public's eyes. Just look how behaved CIE companies were before and after Luas. Even with the Irish public having nothing peviously to compare Luas to, CIE had to make (for them) radical changes to stop the comuters from whispering inthe woodshed.

CIE and their unions would fund a mercenry army to come over and overthrow the government to protect their monoploy. Jobs for the lads is their only agenda. We are only allowed their version of "the truth" because their "concensus" keeps them in a job.

Southsider1

Judgement Day wrote: »

Southsider - at least you're trying to think outside the box unlike the morons in CIE and the Dept.of Transport. This line needs to be retained for its potential rather than because of the pitiful handful of people who refuse to give up using the 'so called' service.

Yes, exactly. It must have potential. If the trains were to operate from when the ferries arrive rather than ten minutes before they arrive. If the trains were to run at suitable commuter times and the prices were right it must work. There's probably various EU grants available for such a service/enterprise. The MK IIIs would be a more pleasant and com fortable train than the dirty rattly crates they're currently using. And theres at least a dozen of them languishing in Waterford.... And another thing: CIE shouldn't be demanding that ALL their services turn a profit. That's the reason they're state owned so that some loss making services are retained for the greater good of the people.... In the UK when they nprivatised the Govt. recognised that not all services would be profitable to they provide the operators with a subvention on the loss makers which comes from the licencing of the profitable ones... Business.... not rocket science!

Judgement Day

On Newstalk NOW ....after Ad break!!

Judgement Day

Barry Kenny talking total ****e as usual but a typical Newstalk job with neither Barry or Cllr.Joe Ryan in the studio! Bullying ****e from Barry as usual. Interrupting at every opportunity. When tackled on zero marketing of the line Barry said he had been on local radio.....ffs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If only I could get into a studio with him I would tear him to shreds. I have tried but so far to no avail. :mad:Head of Communications - what sort of ****e title is that, he's just a jumped up little goods clerk!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dowlingm

Southsider1 wrote: »

CIE shouldn't be demanding that ALL their services turn a profit. That's the reason they're state owned so that some loss making services are retained for the greater good of the people....

Southsider1, I think CIE would settle for any of the services being profitable. Remember, IE loses ~200m, gets ~200m in govt subsidy and cross-subsidy from CIE and then declares a "surplus" or a small "loss".

Seriously, go to the IE website and download the Annual Report (PDF) and read the accounts. It's not like I'm making this up.

Summary of FY2008 over 2007 - revenue down, costs up, government subsidy cut, cross-subsidy from CIE (basically a cost on the rest of the Group) up.

God only knows what 2009 will look like with the impact of Broadmeadow on passenger and Tara traffic and the general continuation of the economic downturn.

Page 20 of the PDF.
FY2008 Revenue after Exceptionals: 221.476m
FY2008 Costs: 422.492m
FY2008 Surplus/Deficit* before Government Subvention: -203.769m
FY2008 Government PSO payment: 181.152m
FY2008 Government Safety Payment: 12.466m
FY2008 CIE payment: 10.000m
FY2008 Surplus/Deficit: -0.151m

FY2007 Revenue: 230.250m
FY2007 Costs: 419.566m
FY2007 Surplus/Deficit* before Government Subvention: -193.759m
FY2007 Government PSO payment: 189.910m
FY2007 Government Safety Payment: 13.580m
FY2007 CIE payment: 5.000m
FY2007 Release of liability provisions: 13.397m
FY2007 Surplus/Deficit: +28.128m

* Not = Revenue after Exceptionals-Costs. A few million in profit on disposals, loss on interest payments etc. not included, but are in the S/DbGS number.

coolperson05

To be totally honest, if the line isn't getting the passengers then change the service...I travel alot to Dublin from Waterford and a later service each way would be benefical.
Also perhaps commuter routes like Waterford to Kilkenny at high frequencies could work as theres no really reliable bus route and alot of traffic goes either way...Simple ideas to maybe make some cash!

Southsider1

Fair enough DOWLINGM I accept what you say. I would, however, point out that they did huge works in the 2006/7 and 8 financial years. Ongoing upgrade at Heuston and Connolly and new stations and tracks on the commuter lines into Dublin. Also I would reiterate that, while CIE should be operated at a profit if possible, it's more important that it provides a service to ALL or at least as many of the population as is reasonable. If they don't then a certain portion of the subvention should be given to those who will. Furthermore, it needs a change of Management - sadly Michael O'Leary is busy elsewhere!! - someone who will cut through all the bullsh1t and waste and clean it up. They have a relatively good product, a good (although needs tweaks) infrastructure. Probably, like all the public sector, has too many staff. And from what I can see of the timetables thye need to be wiped clean and start again. This time making sure that the various trains join up so that if people can't get to a destination direct then, at least, they're not sitting on a platform somewhere for hours.

I see a bright future for some sort of co-op to take over the line from Rosslare/Wexford right up to Galway and getting the portion of subvention that CIE get for it. with fresh Management, free of the sh1t that Mr Kenny et al are clogged up with and with a whole new staff of drivers, engineers and admin/customer service staff - Non unionised - it could/ should work.

Sorry, I've gone on a bit!

Bards

coolperson05 wrote: »

To be totally honest, if the line isn't getting the passengers then change the service...I travel alot to Dublin from Waterford and a later service each way would be benefical.
Also perhaps commuter routes like Waterford to Kilkenny at high frequencies could work as theres no really reliable bus route and alot of traffic goes either way...Simple ideas to maybe make some cash!

Wrong Service - this is not about the Dublin to Waterford Train.

read the title of the thread for a clue perhaps

dowlingm

I disagree - the least that people in Waterford should be demanding is that in the event this cut stands, the reduction be reallocated to Southeastern services that might make money, not just cut outright.

For example - the train that arrives in ex-Limerick Junction at 2027 could be sent express to Carlow to meet the last train leaving for Dublin. This would make the last train to Dublin 2030, not 1820 as at present. If the arrival from LJ could be accelerated due to more aggressive timetabling, then the service could stop in Kilkenny, offering something to both Waterford-Kilkenny and Kilkenny-Dublin users, as long as a punctual and hasslefree transfer was maintained in Carlow. If the equipment returned, then the last train Dublin-Waterford is now 2010, not 1835. Once that is done, the next step would be figuring out how to get a Carlow-Waterford train in before 0900.

Intensification of Dublin-Waterford is tricky since the freight traffic takes up paths too but the answer should be to add passing track (like the CWR sections laid from Waterford-Rosslare) and not throw up our hands.

Southsider1

dowlingm wrote: »

Intensification of Dublin-Waterford is tricky since the freight traffic takes up paths too but the answer should be to add passing track (like the CWR sections laid from Waterford-Rosslare) and not throw up our hands.

But, is there any freight traffic anymore?