Prostitution

AARRRGH · 18-01-2010 07:35PM

T runner wrote: »

Thats not true.

Once again you are wrong.

The penalty is a fine or prison of a maximum of six months.

T runner wrote: »

That was based on Ruhamas definition of trafficking.

I know Ruhama very well so I can tell you their exact definition on things.

1. All prostitution is sexual assault.
2. All prostitution is forced prostitution.
3. All migrants are trafficked.

Therefore, every foreign prostitute in Ireland has been trafficked, is being forced to work as a prostitute, and is being sexually assaulted.

Ruhama are brilliant at what they do. They massively influence government and Gardai policy. Nearly every single set of statistics about prostitution in Ireland has come from Ruhama, even though they try very hard to hide their involvement.

So based on this, you cannot trust any trafficking based statistics in Ireland.

Trafficking and forced prostitution do not mean what you think they mean.

...

So let's start being realistic.

Have there been some prostitution horror stories in Ireland? Yes, I am open minded enough to believe there have been, if simply only because every industry has some horror stories.

Is there a significant or even small amount of women in Ireland kidnapped and forced against their will to have sex for money? I highly doubt it. Why? Because for starters a punter would know if a woman is a victim of kidnapping. It would be amazingly obvious. How could it not be? By definition if she is being forced than she must be chained to a wall or in an apartment where there is no escape. She'd also be freaked out. This is something you'd notice.

Also, if there was any sort of genuine forced prostitution problem in Ireland, there would be convictions or at least sex slaves being freed and rehabilitated. Unfortunately there is no evidence this is happening at all.

Seriously, it seems you want to believe the myths of prostitution. I have worked somewhat in the industry and know it very well hence why I defend it so much. It is nothing like the movies.

18-01-2010 08:19PM

T runner wrote: »

Pimp/boss/trafficker whatever.

You still havent answered the only question I have asked.

You cant tell if the money you are handing over will be used for trafficking or contribute to other forms of human misery. You clearly dont care.

Oh my god, you're impossible. As bad as a Troll. No point discussing anything with you because you're incapable of responding to anything.

Don't ever quote me, or ask me anything again. :mad:

T runner · 19-01-2010 11:53AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh my god, you're impossible. As bad as a Troll. No point discussing anything with you because you're incapable of responding to anything.

Again you dodge the question as to how you know that your money does not end up in the hands of a sex trafficker. You cant possibly know. Neither could I.

Don't ever quote me, or ask me anything again. :mad:

I can actually quote you whenever I like. That said I am extremely unlikely to.
Read a bit on human slavery. Put a female relation in the position of one of those girls.

The Corinthian · 19-01-2010 12:45PM

For all your posturing T runner, he does have a point. You do repeatedly avoid responding to direct challenges for you to back up many of your claims, preferring to deflect them with emotive indignation and flowery rhetoric.

On which point, any chance you'll respond to my last post requesting evidence to back up your various claims?

T runner · 19-01-2010 01:03PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

For all your posturing T runner, he does have a point. You do repeatedly avoid responding to direct challenges for you to back up many of your claims, preferring to deflect them with emotive indignation and flowery rhetoric.

On which point, any chance you'll respond to my last post requesting evidence to back up your various claims?

You made a personal attack on me on another thread and I will be ignoring posts from you henceforth.

The Corinthian · 19-01-2010 02:09PM

T runner wrote: »

You made a personal attack on me on another thread and I will be ignoring posts from you henceforth.

That's convenient. And there was I thinking you didn't want to respond because you make up most of your 'facts' to support your own personal opinions.

musicmonky · 19-01-2010 07:40PM

How childish.
Not only can people not substantiate an argument.
But they have to run away crying. its very funny

19-01-2010 08:25PM

Last time.

T runner wrote: »

Again you dodge the question as to how you know that your money does not end up in the hands of a sex trafficker. You cant possibly know. Neither could I.

I can actually quote you whenever I like. That said I am extremely unlikely to.Read a bit on human slavery. Put a female relation in the position of one of those girls.

I actually wrote a respectable response to this, but deleted it when I remembered how useless it is to converse with you. I wonder how you noticed that I have responded to every one of your questions, and you have responded to not one of mine. Just as you ignore any suggestions of showing respect for other posters.

You just want to preach your idea's and are incapable to considering other viewpoints. Hell, incapable of actually answering questions put to you... Worse than useless on a discussion board.

19-01-2010 08:28PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

For all your posturing T runner, he does have a point. You do repeatedly avoid responding to direct challenges for you to back up many of your claims, preferring to deflect them with emotive indignation and flowery rhetoric.

On which point, any chance you'll respond to my last post requesting evidence to back up your various claims?

God forbid, that he actually answers a question... How dare you put him in such a situation?

shoegirl · 23-01-2010 11:33PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

Also, if there was any sort of genuine forced prostitution problem in Ireland, there would be convictions or at least sex slaves being freed and rehabilitated. Unfortunately there is no evidence this is happening at all.

Does this not ignore the obvious fact that any woman from a country trafficked here from a non-EC country is here illegally and therefore technically breaking the law? The failure of the police throughout several EC countries to successfully locate and convict people traffickers using trafficked women for poristitution indicates just that: the failure of police forces - NOT the highly politically motivated suggestion that just because it hasn't been convicted it therefore doesn't exist.

There is a fundamental flaw in the law with regard to many illegal activities in that many of those who suffer from them, whether co-conspirators or unwilling victims, are also breaking the law and therefore cannot "assist" the law without convicting themselves, sometimes, as in the case of many coerced prostitutes, of an entirely different set of laws.

Its quite like catching somebody with drugs. They are not going to willingly and easily feed information about sources back to the police because they themselves are then going to be both a target for the dealers or bigger dealers AND the police as law breakers themselves. Why should they collude? There is no incentive to assist the law. Yet I don't hear anybody claiming that there are no drug overlords in Ireland simply because there has been little success in committing them.

In fact the situation legally is not at all dissimilar, if you read through many local papers, there are strings of small time users and "retail" dealers being convicted, with convolluted stories about where they got the drugs. Many of them first time convictions with tiny amounts. Anybody who is even a very small dealer who has been caught by the police is already in trouble for possession, they probably owe money to the dealer - are they now going to sell out the dealer? Certainly not.

Its the same for trafficked prostitutes, they probably have poor language skills, don't know the law exactly, are already in trouble for visa offences, are they now going to turn around and help the law in convicting their pimp? Almost certainly not.

Plus women and men who are being coerced do not need to be chained up to be controlled and manipulated, ANYBODY who has ever been in a bad relationship will tell you that.

24-01-2010 01:13AM

shoegirl wrote: »

Does this not ignore the obvious fact that any woman from a country trafficked here from a non-EC country is here illegally and therefore technically breaking the law? The failure of the police throughout several EC countries to successfully locate and convict people traffickers using trafficked women for poristitution indicates just that: the failure of police forces - NOT the highly politically motivated suggestion that just because it hasn't been convicted it therefore doesn't exist.

Don't quite understand why the distinction here between EU and non-EU residents when it comes to trafficking...

In any case the Police here in Ireland have located, and broken brothels which were operating outside of the law. Surely, if trafficking as prevalent then they would have found a few trafficked girls by now.. if only on luck alone.

There is a fundamental flaw in the law with regard to many illegal activities in that many of those who suffer from them, whether co-conspirators or unwilling victims, are also breaking the law and therefore cannot "assist" the law without convicting themselves, sometimes, as in the case of many coerced prostitutes, of an entirely different set of laws.

And yet, they wouldn't be facing criminal prosecution and would in all likelihood be returned to the country of their origin... And it has occurred in the past, whereby illegal immigrants have appealed and received grounds to stay within Ireland even after being found out.

But thats looking at the people being trafficked as being of sound and rational minds capable of believing that they would be breaking the laws of the country they're in. But then anyone capable of thinking along those lines, would also be able to factor in that they were trafficked and forced, and therefore have an advantage when dealing with any authorities... Unless of course, she/he has absolutely no desire to leave the country..

Its quite like catching somebody with drugs. They are not going to willingly and easily feed information about sources back to the police because they themselves are then going to be both a target for the dealers or bigger dealers AND the police as law breakers themselves. Why should they collude? There is no incentive to assist the law. Yet I don't hear anybody claiming that there are no drug overlords in Ireland simply because there has been little success in committing them.

Probably because there have been plenty of occasions where dealers have been arrested with quantities of drugs without any need for extra information. If you're trying to say that trafficking is likely to exist in Ireland simply because there hasn't been any arrests, then the drug analogy isn't particularly useful. Perhaps another?

In fact the situation legally is not at all dissimilar, if you read through many local papers, there are strings of small time users and "retail" dealers being convicted, with convolluted stories about where they got the drugs. Many of them first time convictions with tiny amounts. Anybody who is even a very small dealer who has been caught by the police is already in trouble for possession, they probably owe money to the dealer - are they now going to sell out the dealer? Certainly not.

Sure.. Why would they? They can go to prison and be out in 6 months. As for those with tiny amounts, they're usually ignored... i.e. the drugs are taken, and the user released (they wouldn't be considered a dealer with such a small amount). Repeated pickups by Gardai wouldn't necessarily mean arrest. Growing up in Athlone, and being a stoner myself has taught me that..

Its the same for trafficked prostitutes, they probably have poor language skills, don't know the law exactly, are already in trouble for visa offences, are they now going to turn around and help the law in convicting their pimp? Almost certainly not.

They're going to stick to the pimp for the fear of violence being brought to bear on them... and probably the drugs which keep them from wandering very far from the "premises" they work from.

I have the feeling you're trying to link trafficked women forced into prostitution with the lives of normal escorts... but its still all too vague.

Plus women and men who are being coerced do not need to be chained up to be controlled and manipulated, ANYBODY who has ever been in a bad relationship will tell you that.

Bit of a difference between a bad relationship and being forced to have sex with strangers (and having your personal freedom restricted)... ANYBODY who has ever been in a bad relationship will tell you that.

Zombrex · 27-01-2010 02:18AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Surely, if trafficking as prevalent then they would have found a few trafficked girls by now.. if only on luck alone.

You can't open a paper these days without another case of another sex worker trafficked into the country, even if you ignore the Ruhamma press releases.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0114/1231738222746.html

The Gardai said that in 2008 23 know individuals suspected of being trafficked into the country for sex.

It's also sort of difficult to break up sex trafficking rings when some Gardai themselves are acting as the pimps

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/garda-arrested-in-sexring-probe-1949427.html
http://www.herald.ie/national-news/gardai-were-brothel-drivers-1994963.html

27-01-2010 08:50AM

Wicknight wrote: »

You can't open a paper these days without another case of another sex worker trafficked into the country, even if you ignore the Ruhamma press releases.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0114/1231738222746.html

"Opposing an application for bail, Garda Supt Frank Walsh said the passport she had been carrying was false. He was not satisfied the woman was a victim of human trafficking as claimed and he asked for a continuing remand in custody in order to establish the woman’s correct identity."

From your own article, hardly a definite trafficking case.. and I think you're exaggerating a wee bit about the number of cases in the press.. especially when you take into account the number that are just claims rather than proven.

The Gardai said that in 2008 23 know individuals suspected of being trafficked into the country for sex.

It's also sort of difficult to break up sex trafficking rings when some Gardai themselves are acting as the pimps

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/garda-arrested-in-sexring-probe-1949427.html
http://www.herald.ie/national-news/gardai-were-brothel-drivers-1994963.html

Didn't see where you got the 23 figure in any of the articles you provided.

In fairness, other countries have the same problem with police being involved, and are more than capable of detecting trafficking rings. France has a long history of police corruption tied to prostitution & eastern European trafficking rings.

"Last month Fine Gael claimed that 97pc of the 1,000 women believed to be involved in indoor prostitution were migrants. " - from the article.

Migrants... not trafficked.. not forced... not even illegal. Just migrants.. Which includes any touring escorts as well as a host of other reasons totally unrelated to trafficking and even prostitution.

Zombrex · 27-01-2010 12:16PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Didn't see where you got the 23 figure in any of the articles you provided.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/underage-teens-trafficked-here-as-sex-workers-1874315.html

Gardai said last night that 23 potential victims of trafficking had been referred to the Garda National Immigration Bureau in 2008 and, where appropriate, these were being investigated with police forces from other jurisdictions such as the UK and the Netherlands.

Again this is ignoring all Ruhamma produced statistics which you guys seem to think are completely fabricated.

Deleted User wrote: »

In fairness, other countries have the same problem with police being involved, and are more than capable of detecting trafficking rings. France has a long history of police corruption tied to prostitution & eastern European trafficking rings.

What is your point?

Your argument seems to boil down to I don't hear about it so it isn't happening. You simply ignore other scenarios that don't fit with your preconviced conclusion.

Which seems as ideologically motivated conclusion as the stuff you complain about groups like Ruhamma coming up with.

Deleted User wrote: »

"Last month Fine Gael claimed that 97pc of the 1,000 women believed to be involved in indoor prostitution were migrants. " - from the article.

Migrants... not trafficked.. not forced... not even illegal. Just migrants.. Which includes any touring escorts as well as a host of other reasons totally unrelated to trafficking and even prostitution.

And? Did he claim otherwise?

If you look at the Ruhama statistics of the approx 1,000 women working the sex trade in Ireland approx 300 were in contact with Ruhama of which they identified 100 as potentially trafficked into the country, just under 10%.

That doesn't seem like a particularly outrageous claim (as you guys always try to make out Ruhama statistics are) and seems lower than most other European countries (e.g UN estimates have put the number of trafficked sex workers in France to be higher than 50% of all working prostitutes)

28-01-2010 08:32AM

Wicknight wrote:

Again this is ignoring all Ruhamma produced statistics which you guys seem to think are completely fabricated.

Ahh well, I've said that Ruhamma have a serious agenda to promote and they twist the interpretation of the results (and definitions) of their surveys/investigations. Not that they lied outright. It was the other posters contribution of an online survey that I had serious problems with.

What is your point?

Your argument seems to boil down to I don't hear about it so it isn't happening. You simply ignore other scenarios that don't fit with your preconviced conclusion.

Do I? Really? I think I've responded to pretty much everything that you have presented so far when possible.

And we've gone over this before, and its obvious we disagree. I see nothing beyond a few suspected or unproven allegations of sex trafficking in Ireland. Extremely few actual arrests or proven victims. You see the suspected and unproven as being proof that this problem is a serious aspect in Ireland.

We disagree. Get over it. Unless you have research that proves that there is quite a bit of sex trafficking occuring in Ireland? No suspicions. Actual convictions/proven victims. (And, please, more than one or two cases.. I've never denied the "trade" exists)

Which seems as ideologically motivated conclusion as the stuff you complain about groups like Ruhamma coming up with.

Not really. You want to use the Ruhamma information, whereas I think most of their stuff is unreliable. You've posted articles which talk about suspects and unproven allegations, but nothing concrete. I've seen you tear people's "evidence" apart on other threads for similar reasons.

And? Did he claim otherwise?

Nope. But have you actually thought about the impact on any results by not being selective in that category?

If you look at the Ruhama statistics of the approx 1,000 women working the sex trade in Ireland approx 300 were in contact with Ruhama of which they identified 100 as potentially trafficked into the country, just under 10%.

That doesn't seem like a particularly outrageous claim (as you guys always try to make out Ruhama statistics are) and seems lower than most other European countries (e.g UN estimates have put the number of trafficked sex workers in France to be higher than 50% of all working prostitutes)

Again potentially. If Ruhamma or the Police had found trafficked women they would be showing them off. As you said, you wouldn't be able to open a newspaper without seeing an article about it, and they would be talking about proven cases rather than suspicions.

My problem with all of this is simple. I want convictions of those pushing the trafficking trade in Ireland. I want proven cases of women being trafficked. Rather easy to provide, if there is a serious trafficking network which Ruhamma and others are trying to push on us. Suspicions only suggest that the trade is here in its infancy not that its here in any strength. And I've never said that it wasn't here, I've just said not to the degree that a number of posters have tried to show. And also not tied to mainstream prostitution in Ireland, which a number of posters have tried to connect.

Zombrex · 28-01-2010 12:40PM

Deleted User wrote: »

And we've gone over this before, and its obvious we disagree. I see nothing beyond a few suspected or unproven allegations of sex trafficking in Ireland. Extremely few actual arrests or proven victims. You see the suspected and unproven as being proof that this problem is a serious aspect in Ireland.

No, I see it as evidence that you can't assert it isn't. Which, lets not forget, is what you are doing.

Deleted User wrote: »

We disagree. Get over it. Unless you have research that proves that there is quite a bit of sex trafficking occuring in Ireland?

For the last time, I'm not asserting there is quite a bit of sex trafficking occurring in Ireland.

You are the one asserting something, that you have established there isn't.

Deleted User wrote: »

Not really. You want to use the Ruhamma information, whereas I think most of their stuff is unreliable. You've posted articles which talk about suspects and unproven allegations, but nothing concrete. I've seen you tear people's "evidence" apart on other threads for similar reasons.

And again, as soon as I assert there is a quite a bit of sex trafficking occurring in Ireland feel free to tear apart the evidence.

Deleted User wrote: »

Again potentially.

Yes, exactly, that is the point.

Deleted User wrote: »

If Ruhamma or the Police had found trafficked women they would be showing them off.

Again with the faulty logic trying to support your position.

If A was actually happening then B should happen also. B isn't happening so therefore A isn't happening.

Can you seriously not see the error in that logic?

Deleted User wrote: »

My problem with all of this is simple. I want convictions of those pushing the trafficking trade in Ireland. I want proven cases of women being trafficked.

You want that for what, to accept that there is a problem with trafficking in Ireland (fair enough) or to stop asserting that you know there isn't a problem with trafficking in Ireland (something you can't support anyway).

Valmont · 28-01-2010 12:47PM

I was listening to the radio the other and they were talking about prostitution. There was a lady on advocating the legalisation of prostitution, arguing that it would produce a safer environment for girls to work in. The issue of trafficking was put to her as a reason not to use prostitutes and she replied that individuals are trafficked into this country for agricultural work, domestic 'slavery' and other things so I don't believe that holding the small possibility that the girl is prostituting against her will (not to mention it would be obvious) to be an adequate reason to abstain from visiting prostitutes. Unless you also refuse to eat any vegetables grown on an Irish farm in case the pickers were trafficked in.

Valmont · 28-01-2010 12:51PM

Deleted User wrote: »

My problem with all of this is simple. I want convictions of those pushing the trafficking trade in Ireland. I want proven cases of women being trafficked. Rather easy to provide, if there is a serious trafficking network which Ruhamma and others are trying to push on us. Suspicions only suggest that the trade is here in its infancy not that its here in any strength. And I've never said that it wasn't here, I've just said not to the degree that a number of posters have tried to show. And also not tied to mainstream prostitution in Ireland, which a number of posters have tried to connect.

A sort of Fermi "Prostitution" Paradox then?

Zombrex · 28-01-2010 05:14PM

Valmont wrote: »

I was listening to the radio the other and they were talking about prostitution. There was a lady on advocating the legalisation of prostitution, arguing that it would produce a safer environment for girls to work in. The issue of trafficking was put to her as a reason not to use prostitutes and she replied that individuals are trafficked into this country for agricultural work, domestic 'slavery' and other things so I don't believe that holding the small possibility that the girl is prostituting against her will (not to mention it would be obvious) to be an adequate reason to abstain from visiting prostitutes. Unless you also refuse to eat any vegetables grown on an Irish farm in case the pickers were trafficked in.

This argument has come up before and was pointed out by myself and others that there are strong regulations attempting to prevent just that. You don't worry about it not because it isn't happening but because a lot of effort is put in by other people to ensure it isn't happening.

And you still get cases where companies that produce goods where it is suspected that they use unethical labour are boycotted by consumers.

So the point doesn't really stand given that people do actually care if their shoes are made by 13 year old girls in a sweatshop, or if the meat in their burger has come from cows in Brazil feed on steroids.

I would agree though that legalization is a way to go. Requiring legitimate prostitutes and brothels to register and comply with health and safety standards would shine a light on to the subject.

Instead of the nonsense you get on this thread about people knowing if the prostitute is being forced or not (sure she would look unhappy wouldn't she :rolleyes:) you would be able to tell by the safety certificate hanging on the wall in the lobby.

You could also control less dangerous but equally important areas, such as requiring condom use. The heavily regulated prostitution industry in Nevada is quite proud of the fact that they have not had any cases of HIV, where as the largely unregulated porn industry down the road in California has a high profile outbreak every few years

28-01-2010 07:53PM

Wicknight wrote: »

No, I see it as evidence that you can't assert it isn't. Which, lets not forget, is what you are doing.

Around and around.

For the last time, I'm not asserting there is quite a bit of sex trafficking occurring in Ireland.

You are the one asserting something, that you have established there isn't.

Fine.. we can agree then. We both agree it happens here, just not as widespread as some posters notions.

And again, as soon as I assert there is a quite a bit of sex trafficking occurring in Ireland feel free to tear apart the evidence.

Okie dokie.

Again with the faulty logic trying to support your position.

If A was actually happening then B should happen also. B isn't happening so therefore A isn't happening.

Can you seriously not see the error in that logic?

Not really a good analogy.. since its a black and white supposition. I agree that trafficking is occurring, you agree that its not common. Ruhamma tries to suggest it is indeed a huge problem in Ireland.

You want that for what, to accept that there is a problem with trafficking in Ireland (fair enough) or to stop asserting that you know there isn't a problem with trafficking in Ireland (something you can't support anyway).

If there was five proven cases of trafficking in Ireland, I wouldn't consider it to be a serious problem, and well within the capabilities of the Gardai to manage. If there were 20 different networks/groups engaged in trafficking, then I would see a problem. But I haven't seen any hint of such a situation in any media reports beyond some wild speculation.

Does trafficking occur in Ireland? Yes, I believe it does. As with your articles and others I have seen, they show that it is here. Does it happen often? Nope.. I don't believe it does, and nothing I have seen (media, wom, etc) has shown otherwise.

Valmont · 28-01-2010 10:51PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Instead of the nonsense you get on this thread about people knowing if the prostitute is being forced or not (sure she would look unhappy wouldn't she :rolleyes:) you would be able to tell by the safety certificate hanging on the wall in the lobby.

I find it hard to believe that there would be no observable differences in demeanour between one girl who is there of her own volition and one who is forced into it. It would be more conducive to a good discussion if you rolled your eyes back down and actually engaged my point rather than dismissing it outright.

For me the issue is the girls, right now, who are making their own choice to work as prostitutes. From their point of view, this is their livelihood and they are completely within the law to do what they are doing. Convincing people to refrain from using their services on the basis of the shady and uncertain details of human trafficking is overly damaging to the legal part of the industry and until there is some authoritative estimate of trafficking numbers, I would consider such an argument inconclusive.

T runner · 31-01-2010 12:19AM

Heres some information on trafficking in the Irish contaxt that shoule be relevant to this thread.

Globalisation, Sex Trafficking and Prostitution - the Experiences of Migrant Women in Ireland

Some of the data is disturbing. One of the partners in the research is the HSE so this appears to be as authoritive as you can get in clandestine matters like trafficking and prostitution:

Over a 21-month period, between January 2007 and September 2008, 102 women were identified by ten services as being trafficked into or through Ireland.

This research found that 11 per cent of the 102 women trafficked were children at the time they were trafficked to Ireland. 26 of these women knew of a further 66 women.

It is mainly women who escape, are rescued or who have paid off their indentured ‘labour’ that come to the attention of services. Therefore the above number is an underestimation.

Information was available on the type of prostitution involved for 84 women.
The vast majority (90 per cent or 76 women) were in indoor prostitution,
6 per cent (5) were involved in both indoor and outdoor, and 4 per cent (3) were involved in outdoor prostitution only

Services that identified women as trafficked for this research use the United
Nations (UN) Palermo Protocol 8 on Trafficking.

When women who are trafficked reach Ireland, they are sometimes passed over to Irish brothel owners who prostitute them. Other women are held and
prostituted by the original traffickers.

Men who buy sex from women tend to be highly educated,
have incomes in the middle range and are employed in
professional occupations (Layte et al 2006)

Concerns were voiced among some men about the trafficking of women and girls for the purpose of sexual exploitation, with 25 per cent of men stating that they had met a woman who they felt was being forced into prostitution (Escort Surveys 2006).

The study by Conroy (2003) found that 10 per cent of separated
children arriving in Ireland are the subject of investigation as a
result of suspicions of trafficking or smuggling. The report cites
16 cases of child trafficking, which it compiled from newpaper
reports and professional personnel.

There is now overwhelming evidence that violence is intrinsic to prostitution
(Hoigard and Finstad 1992; Farley et al 2003). Staff of the WHP (HSE) receive
regular reports from women on the violence inflicted on them:

And heres the sexual habits of Irish gentlemen who visit prostitutes:

• 57 per cent of buyers had unprotected oral sex without ejaculation into
the escort’s mouth, while 58 per cent of escorts offered this service
• 38 per cent of buyers reported that they had unprotected oral sex with
ejaculation into the escort’s mouth, while 25 per cent of escorts offered
this service
• 36 per cent of buyers engaged in anal sex, while 32 per cent of escorts
offered this service
• 30 per cent of buyers engaged in facials (ejaculating on the face of the
escort) while 40 per cent of escorts offered this service
• 22 per cent of buyers dressed up in uniforms, while 78 per cent of
escorts offered this service
• 9 per cent of buyers stated that they had availed of unprotected
vaginal sex while no escort had advertised this service

31-01-2010 04:57AM

:rolleyes:

Zombrex · 31-01-2010 12:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree that trafficking is occurring, you agree that its not common.

No, we both agree trafficking is occurring.

You continuously assert you know it is not common and I find myself having to repeatably point out that you don't know it is not common.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

Your assertion that it is is based on some frankly ridiculous logic which seems as ideological bent as anything anyone else is coming up with. Your jumps in logic, such as the idea that if it was happening then X,Y,Z would also be happening so because they aren't it isn't happening either are as skewed logic as Ruhamma saying everyone working is prostitution is forced because we don't believe any woman would choose to freely work in prostitution. It is asserting our own conclusion to get the answer you want. In reality you have no idea the correlation, if any, between say successful prosecutions for trafficking and trafficking cases. Saying that because we have hardly any successful prosecutions therefore we must have hardly any trafficking is an completely baseless assertion on your part based on nothing but smoke and mirrors.

Like you said, and around and around we go.

31-01-2010 01:05PM

Wicknight wrote: »

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

And as I said before (and pointed this out to avoid such an useless argument) we have discussed this and will likely never agree. We both know you love to argue these little points to death, and will always seek to discredit another posters opinion after a while. Around and around.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence - word games. Simply put it means nothing. Smoke screen to cover crap.

We disagree. Get over it.

Joey the lips · 31-01-2010 04:36PM

T runner wrote: »

:

And heres the sexual habits of Irish gentlemen who visit prostitutes:

• 57 per cent of buyers had unprotected oral sex without ejaculation into
the escort’s mouth, while 58 per cent of escorts offered this service
• 38 per cent of buyers reported that they had unprotected oral sex with
ejaculation into the escort’s mouth, while 25 per cent of escorts offered
this service
• 36 per cent of buyers engaged in anal sex, while 32 per cent of escorts
offered this service
• 30 per cent of buyers engaged in facials (ejaculating on the face of the
escort) while 40 per cent of escorts offered this service
• 22 per cent of buyers dressed up in uniforms, while 78 per cent of
escorts offered this service
• 9 per cent of buyers stated that they had availed of unprotected
vaginal sex while no escort had advertised this service

Well done. "But dont you realise it cannot be true because it was not your personell experience" :rolleyes:..... Its good to see you live in the real world.

"Sarcasim"

mkahnisbent · 03-02-2010 09:47PM

Klaz and a few others are talking a lot of sense.

Everyone else (Wicknight, T Runner....) are trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. And the molehill may not even exist. But that won't stop them having such strong beliefs.

Dinxminx · 04-02-2010 01:47AM

Where on earth are the mods in all of this? After reading the last few pages I actually feel dizzy.

For what it's worth and from what I've seen, sex trafficking does happen in Ireland. Certainly in Dublin.

mkahnisbent · 04-02-2010 01:55AM

Dinxminx wrote: »

For what it's worth and from what I've seen, sex trafficking does happen in Ireland. Certainly in Dublin.

That's a pretty strong statement. Care to elaborate on it?

Dinxminx · 04-02-2010 03:18AM

Okay perhaps that was a very strong statement. What I meant to say was that the prostitutes I see picking up clients in town in groups are always with a pimp or two in the background keeping an eye on them, are foreign, and look malnourished, drugged up to their eyeballs, and sad.

In my opinion, I'd say there is a vast majority of prostitutes who do it purely for the money off their own bat, and I see absolutely no problem with that. More power to them! But the ones you see in town, particularly around connolly station or fitzwilliam square, are absolutely depressing. I don't think anyone could argue that these girls are not trafficked.

Prostitution

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