Prostitution

AARRRGH

AARRRGH wrote: »

the problem is you will only quote from articles written by extremists. The fact that you cannot understand why this is a problem says so much about you.

I am going to elaborate on this. This will be the last time I try to explain this.

I'll try to keep it as simple as possible.

There are two ways you can gather information on a topic:

You can seek information from a broad range of sources, including those with differing points of view, or you can restrict your search to those who share your predisposed opinions.

You are doing the latter.

I will now give an example.

I am a vegetarian. I am researching food. I limit my research to publications by PETA and militant vegan groups. Their research quotes scientific journals and organisations I trust, although many of these quotes are out of context. This does not bother me, because I am only interested in information which backs up my vegetarian viewpoint. I know PETA and militant vegan groups are extremists and have an agenda, but I either can't see this or don't care.

This is what you are doing T Runner.

ISAW

AARRRGH wrote: »

It is very possible prostitution is f*cked in the US, but we are talking about prostitution in Ireland.

Somehow you believe that prostitution in Ireland is rareified to some degree. On what is your opinion based? you have already been shown the irish evidence:
http://www.immigrantcouncil.ie/press_detail.php?id=90
Research commissioned by the Immigrant Council of Ireland (ICI) has identified more than 100 women and girls who have been trafficked into or through this country for the purposes of sexual exploitation over a period of less than two years.

And many hundreds more women, the overwhelming majority of whom are migrant women, are being sexually exploited for profit in an illicit Irish sex industry worth an estimated €180 million a year, the research found.

And you incorrectly are assuming all prostitutes have a pimp.

You didn't read the reference did you? That tables cover two different metropolitan areas one with and one WITHOUT pimps!

I know many prostitutes and am yet to meet one who has or has ever had a pimp. Again, it could be different in the US, but we are talking about Ireland.

I know a police man who had personal experience of prostituted and pimps in dublin. One pimp had the habit of keeping girls in line by putting their hand in the door jam ( in the hinge side of the door) and slamming the door. He did it on a prostitute from Galway who was found by the police man. He was warned to keep away from the Galway woman or he would be found in the Liffey. He did it again. A few week later he was found floating in the Liffey. I know the story is true because the police man was my father. My father was from Galway. Im not saying he was responsible for the pimp drowning but he never had any problems with pimps again. The point I am making is that pimps exist in Ireland and are nasty pieces of work and sometimes meet nasty ends. The evidence of violence is there
in published research.

And the business nowadays is done indoors not on the street but it involves a network of internet sites mobile phones foreign women etc. and the money is what keeps the sleezy criminals in the business. the vast majority of the sex business is not happy hookers making american porn movies by their own choice. it involves exploitation particularly of children.

ISAW

AARRRGH wrote: »

I am going to elaborate on this. This will be the last time I try to explain this.

You somehow think that you unsupported opinion is superiour to peer reviewed research but go on then.

I'll try to keep it as simple as possible.

Don't patronise me. i doubt you would be able to explain what public opinion polls have a three per cent margin of error but the reason is quite simple. But explaining p values and the students t test I would think are something you would not bother to read.

There are two ways you can gather information on a topic:

there are far many ways of gathering information but there are two main methodologies of analysis qualitative and quantitative. The sources you have been given use both.

You can seek information from a broad range of sources, including those with differing points of view, or you can restrict your search to those who share your predisposed opinions.

This is a rather niave view of information gathering. to take the above example into drugs if you are doing research into whether alcohol is harmfull which of the following would you think is a better indicator of harm

-accident reports in hospitals caused by alcohol as a percent of admissions
-gardai reports on assaults showing the percent where alcohol was taken
- a brewers opinion on on the

Or how about a drug like Thalidomide taking the "wide appraoch" do you trust?
- the testimony of the pregnant women
-the evidence of the birth defects
- the press release of the drug company

You are doing the latter.

No actually published research means it has to be done by objective standards. Quantitative research on opinion in particular is usually "double blind" i.e neither the person asked the question or the person processing the results can affect the results.

Yes if i want to find a report on abuse of prostitutes i wil search for one but the research itself doesnt set out to prove that.


If you are looking into international trafficing of prostitutes into Ireland for example you look at official statistics and yu don't ask a pimps opinion about whether there are any foreign trafficked women.

I am a vegetarian. I am researching food. I limit my research to publications by PETA and militant vegan groups. Their research quotes scientific journals and organisations I trust, although many of these quotes are out of context. This does not bother me, because I am only interested in information which backs up my vegetarian viewpoint. I know PETA and militant vegan groups are extremists and have an agenda, but I either can't see this or don't care.

What you seem to utterly fail to grasp is that there ARENT ANY reports on how most women love to be in the sex trade. Nor are there reports on how drug addiction is good for society. No on how terrorist bombers are helping the rest of society.

But feel free to provide them and Im happy to read them.

This is what you are doing T Runner.

Just to look at the "balance" you require. Her is the actual sex workers in irlend research:
http://www.sexworkersalliance.ie/index.php?p=12

The key findings of this report are that drug-using sex workers are exposed to multiple risks and harms in their living and working lives....
Therefore, addressing their wider social and situational needs such as poverty, housing, educational needs and employment prospects are as fundamental to reducing their risk of harm as addressing their drug use.

Ironically, if such needs were addressed they would be prostitutes!

What other reports do they list. Oh look! :
Globalisation, Sex Trafficking and Prostitution - the Experiences of Migrant Women in Ireland - the one you said is baised seems to be supported by prostitutes!

It shines a light on the reality that large numbers of migrant women are being sexually exploited in indoor prostitution in Ireland. Drawing the experiences of these women, the report illustrates the severe emotional, physical and psychological harm that women who are trafficked and sexually exploited in Ireland endure. This report was written by Carmel and Patricia Kelleher, of Kelleher associates, Monica O'Connor and Dr Jane Pillinger.

AARRRGH

ISAW you're just saying more of the same rubbish which has all been addressed on previous pages. The Immigrant Council of Ireland research is just a rebranded Ruhama document. Ring them and ask them. They will tell you this themselves.

And Carmel and Patricia Kelleher, of Kelleher associates, Monica O'Connor and Dr Jane Pillinger have already been exposed as extremists on the previous pages.

I know nothing I say will change your mind, and you are going to believe whatever you want to believe.

This sums you up really:

ISAW wrote:

[prostitution] involves exploitation particularly of children.

Groan.

I don't know what else I can say.

T runner

No, the problem is you will only quote from articles written by extremists. The fact that you cannot understand why this is a problem says so much about you.

The article was written by the Immigrant council of Ireland. Their sources include the HSE, the Garda Siochana, Ruhama, the HSE among others.

If you have a problem with these credible sources (and not just Ruhama) then pray tell us why, with substantiation. Which part of the report in particular do you have a problem with?

AARRRGH wrote: »

There is some confusion.

The Immigrant Council published a press release claiming they are working with many prostitutes who have been "trafficked". I rang them and asked them about the article. They told me they were just publishing a press release on behalf of Ruhama -- the Immigrant Council themselves had never met any of these girls nor could they confirm they exist.

This was maybe 3 years ago.

You are misinforming us (spoofing) again. You clearly said (below) that YOU were writing an article on the sex industry. If you were telling us the truth then please provide the link to your article. If you were not telling us the truth then dont, and dont expect anyone on here to believe a single word that comes from your keyboard.

AARRRGH wrote: »

If it means anything to you, I rang the Immigrant Council of Ireland last year to ask where they get their data from. Their answer? Ruhama. (I was writing an article about the sex industry at the time, and trying to figure out if all the negative stories came from Ruhama's office.)

T runner

AARRRGH wrote: »

You can seek information from a broad range of sources, including those with differing points of view, or you can restrict your search to those who share y.

My sources are the Garda siochana, The HSE, The Irish Immigrant Council, Ruhama, The Swedish government and Police force. Recognised European agencies with databases of trafficked women. Please take each one of these and explain why they are predisposed to my position.

PLease also give us a list of your implied sources, the ones with "differing points of view" for a comparison. Do you actually have any sources: or are you spoofing again?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

ISAW

AARRRGH wrote: »

ISAW you're just saying more of the same rubbish which has all been addressed on previous pages.

and you are just making a sweeping statement without supplying any backup evidence.
You haven't addressed the evidence provided - published research.
As counter evidence yuo offered yu opinion which you claimed was expert opinion based on your own publication record. when pressed to produce the record of your publication you failed to do so.

Those are the FACTS of the last few pages.

The Immigrant Council of Ireland research is just a rebranded Ruhama document. Ring them and ask them. They will tell you this themselves.

The report quoted is NOT a Ruhama document! It is also quoted as valid research by prostitutes themselves!

To whom did you speak to in the immigrant council who said the report is a Ruhama document?

If i go and ring them and no such person exists will you admit you are wrong?

And Carmel and Patricia Kelleher, of Kelleher associates, Monica O'Connor and Dr Jane Pillinger have already been exposed as extremists on the previous pages.

Where?
No they haven't!
They are professional academic researchers!

I know nothing I say will change your mind,

Who has a blinkered view now? If you claim drugs are good for society I would be sceptical. If you produced valid evidence I would accept that. If someone else produced peer reviewed literature and you said "I know pushers personally and therefore my opinion is more valid than your research" I would not be convinced by you.

and you are going to believe whatever you want to believe.

Rubbish! I am going to accept what is supported by the evidence. It isn't a question of personal BELIEF ! It is a question of objective evidence!


This sums you up really:
[prostitution] involves exploitation particularly of children.
[/quote]

Groan.

I don't know what else I can say.

Yo0 might trty READING something and GATHERING EVIDENCE and not mouthing your unsupported opinion:
* A large number of children, as many as 4,000, work as child prostitutes in Greece. (US Dept of State, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2000, February 2001 citing CRCA)
Official Italian statistics reveal that there are approximately 900 child prostitutes in Italy being trafficked from Albania. (CRCA, The Vicious Circle, 2000)
* More than 8,000 Albanian girls are prostituted in Italy, and more than 30% of them are under 18. (CATW Fact Book, citing G.J. Koja, "8000 Albanian Girls Work as Prostitutes in Italy", HURINet, 25 July 1998)

* There are reports of increasing child prostitution. (ECPAT Newsletter, May 1999)
* In Greece, more than 40% of the minors in prostitution are from neighbouring or regional countries, including Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Armenia, Albania and Iraq, which are suffering from conflicts and lack of social cohesion. (ECPAT International, A Step Forward, 1999)

* Child traffickers lure family members to sell children, who are forced to work as prostitutes. (US Dept of State, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 1999, 25 February 2000)

* Criminals kidnap children from families or orphanages to be sold for prostitution or pederasty rings abroad. (US Dept of State, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 1999, 25 February 2000)

* Recent reports from the refugee camps of Albania tell of the frequent disappearances of young women and girls from the refugee camps. It appears that these girls are being trafficked for sexual purposes to Western Europe by criminal gangs. (ECPAT International, A Step Forward, 1999)

that is just Albania!

Here are their sources on Ireland!

ADULT STATISTICS

* 4 of the male prostitutes surveyed were introduced to prostitution at age 13, most were 14-19. (CATW Fact Book, citing "Guys go on heroin, then on the game", Irish Times, 30 July 1997)

GENERAL NOTES AND OBSERVATIONS

* Sex traffickers are using Dublin as a stepping stone to provide prostitutes across the Irish Sea in England. From Dublin, the sex trafficker uses the free movement to the south and Britain to fill the demand for vice girls in London, Birmingham and Manchester. ("Sex Traffickers Use Foreign Firms to Trap Girls" Sunday Mirror, 24 September 2000)

* Most male prostitutes come from Dublin, a few from Italy, and others from Britain and Eastern Europe. (CATW Fact Book, citing Kevin O'Sullivan, "Male prostitution study shows link with drugs", Irish Times, 30 July 1997, citing GMHP, The Men in Prostitution)

* Child prostitution is increasing in Dublin. Ireland's increasing numbers of homeless youth are forcing many into prostitution due to their circumstances. (CATW Fact Book, citing Michael Kennelly, "Hungry children call on Garda for food, shelter", Irish Times, 27 March 1997)

http://www.globalmarch.org/worstformsreport/world/childprostitutionandpornography.html

On one hand we have your opinion from your pimp circles of so called "writers" of publications which never emerge (well the written ones anyway probably there are plenty of pictorial and video publications ), on the other hand is a steadily increasing supply of peer review publications and articles from newspapers and magasines.

Did you know "pornography" literally means "writing about whores" ?

musicmonky

uk just introduced new laws. hooray for feminism
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/sex--the-citizens-new-prostitution-laws-explained-1026318.html


just means you go on holiday for "it"
ok its a few years ago...
its the older people that have the money now..
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-who-travel-for-sex-sun-sea-and-gigolos-407202.html

AARRRGH

musicmonky wrote: »

uk just introduced new laws. hooray for feminism
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/sex--the-citizens-new-prostitution-laws-explained-1026318.html


just means you go on holiday for "it"
ok its a few years ago...
its the older people that have the money now..
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/women-who-travel-for-sex-sun-sea-and-gigolos-407202.html

What's interesting is the fact that prostitutes disagree with these changes to the law. That's seems a bit weird since it's supposed to be "protecting" them. So who is the law really for? My guess would be it's simply a case of politicians wanting to be seen to be doing something.

http://www.prostitutescollective.net/

AARRRGH

More:

http://www.womeninlondon.org.uk/2009/11/notice-ecp-2/

musicmonky

i like this "story" , cause thats what it is.

Originally Posted by ISAW
I know a police man who had personal experience of prostituted and pimps in dublin. One pimp had the habit of keeping girls in line by putting their hand in the door jam ( in the hinge side of the door) and slamming the door. He did it on a prostitute from Galway who was found by the police man. He was warned to keep away from the Galway woman or he would be found in the Liffey. He did it again. A few week later he was found floating in the Liffey. I know the story is true because the police man was my father. My father was from Galway. Im not saying he was responsible for the pimp drowning but he never had any problems with pimps again. The point I am making is that pimps exist in Ireland and are nasty pieces of work and sometimes meet nasty ends.

T runner

musicmonky wrote: »

i like this "story" , cause thats what it is.

Originally Posted by ISAW
I know a police man who had personal experience of prostituted and pimps in dublin. One pimp had the habit of keeping girls in line by putting their hand in the door jam ( in the hinge side of the door) and slamming the door. He did it on a prostitute from Galway who was found by the police man. He was warned to keep away from the Galway woman or he would be found in the Liffey. He did it again. A few week later he was found floating in the Liffey. I know the story is true because the police man was my father. My father was from Galway. Im not saying he was responsible for the pimp drowning but he never had any problems with pimps again. The point I am making is that pimps exist in Ireland and are nasty pieces of work and sometimes meet nasty ends.

The substantiated incidents of injuries and ill- health reportd by the VHI (linked earlier in this thread) are not stories.

One of the reasons it is difficult for prostitutes to get out of the business in Ireland is that they generally work 2-3 weeks in advance and their bosses (pimps) will not pay them their due if they quit. They often get paid in worst currency than money in these conditions. Again this has all already been substantiated on this thread. Any comment?

For real made up stories read some of the bizarre claims of some here who claim to have been involved in the sex industry and to have actually written articles on such although were actually found out to be spoofing.

musicmonky

interesting... i suppose

http://www.laweekly.com/2010-04-15/art-books/been-there-done-what/

A year and a half as a harem girl had changed her. She lost her focus. Like an agent gone deep undercover, Lauren had taken on the role and couldn't surface. "It affects how you interact with other people, and what you think of men. What men think of you," she says. "These choices you make when you're young, which you don't know what the ramifications will be until much later....................

The girl who vied to be top dog at the harem,who preferred having power to having friends, disappears into a life of dinner parties and barbecues. She becomes the woman who no longer assumes everyone has a price. "In Brunei certainly everyone did," she says. "Maybe it changed when I stopped having a price." A mischievous grin spreads across her face. "Though, I never thought everyone had a price. I didn't think Gandhi had a price. But normal people, you put them in the right situation, and they have a price.

stapolinhosting

AARRRGH wrote: »

It is very possible prostitution is f*cked in the US, but we are talking about prostitution in Ireland.

And you incorrectly are assuming all prostitutes have a pimp. I know many prostitutes and am yet to meet one who has or has ever had a pimp. Again, it could be different in the US, but we are talking about Ireland.

First had knowledge! There was a brothel in Athlone, next door to me in fact (before I moved) It housed 5 girls, only one was ever seen leaving and the other 4 seemed to be not allowed to leave. One only ever left to bring out the bins or go to the local shop for food and whatever.

After a few months the place was raided by the Gardai. We had a Garda round at ours asking us questions about the goings on of the brothel, if we saw the pimp etc etc and when we asked him what would happen to the girls working there his reply was simple... We cant do anything but let them go because their families in easter Europe would be harmed! Why? Cause the time the prostitute is in prison is money lost to the pimps and underground organisations who run the business, and they want payback, since they cant get their money back (includes money taken by the garda), they hurt families instead.

The whole prostitution thing goes way beyond the girls who work in the brothels... They have no choice because they are so afraid of family members being hurt that they just do it.

Some of the lads I saw going into that brothel were something the most desperate of women would not be with... can you imagine what the prostitute feels when she sees someone like that pop round for a quicky!!

Personally, I feel sorry for the girls. And I would not be supprised if many of them end up being another statistic on the suicide list just to get some freedom from a life they never asked or wished for.

stapolinhosting

stapolinhosting wrote: »

First had knowledge! There was a brothel in Athlone, next door to me in fact (before I moved) It housed 5 girls, only one was ever seen leaving and the other 4 seemed to be not allowed to leave. One only ever left to bring out the bins or go to the local shop for food and whatever.

Thats interesting since I am also from Athlone (living there now in fact), was aware of said brothel, and the girls that worked there were seen around the town. Prostitution in Athlone is well recognised, and most locals know the girls that partake of it. And most are doing so freelance without pimps or handlers. Its only the eastern europeans (polish, Russians etc) who came over with boyfriends who have pimps.

You're choosing to label the whole area of prostitution based on a few brothels or the aggressive methods of eastern europeans. By doing this, you're ignoring the thousands of women who are independent escorts without any supervision or anyone to order them around. But that hardly fits with the abused and coerced prostitute attitude.

The whole prostitution thing goes way beyond the girls who work in the brothels... They have no choice because they are so afraid of family members being hurt that they just do it.

Oh, I agree that it does happen... But what do you suggest? Continued illegality and no rights for prostitutes? Brothels and these types of forcing/blackmailing will continue as long as women (and in some cases, men) have no alternative option or legal recourse.

Some of the lads I saw going into that brothel were something the most desperate of women would not be with... can you imagine what the prostitute feels when she sees someone like that pop round for a quicky!!

During your whole time living there, watching these guys go in, did you ever call the gardai to report such illegalities?

Personally, I feel sorry for the girls. And I would not be supprised if many of them end up being another statistic on the suicide list just to get some freedom from a life they never asked or wished for.

I feel sorry for anyone in this industry whether they were forced into it, or whether they chose of their own free will. As long as it remains illegal, and unregulated, many will be taken advantage of by criminals, those simply smarter, their customers, other escorts, the law, etc etc etc.

T runner

Deleted User wrote: »

Thats interesting since I am also from Athlone (living there now in fact), was aware of said brothel, and the girls that worked there were seen around the town. Prostitution in Athlone is well recognised, and most locals know the girls that partake of it. And most are doing so freelance without pimps or handlers. Its only the eastern europeans (polish, Russians etc) who came over with boyfriends who have pimps.

You're choosing to label the whole area of prostitution based on a few brothels or the aggressive methods of eastern europeans. By doing this, you're ignoring the thousands of women who are independent escorts without any supervision or anyone to order them around. But that hardly fits with the abused and coerced prostitute attitude.

This is unsubstantiated nonsense.

95% of prostitutes in Ireland are foreign, mainly from eastern europe.
There are not thousands of women who are "free" to move around.
Can you provide ANY evidence that this is so?
Or let me guess are we back to your personal experience again.
You use prostitutes (youve said so on this thread) and it doesnt sit well with you that many of these women have been coerced into prostitution.
Difficult to continue using prostitutes knowing that. Yet the only comprehensive report on the subject with significant input from the Gardai and the HSE says that this is so.

It is the clientele (generally middle class assholes) who have the choice and are partly responsible for putting these women (who dont have a choice) into these life ruining situations.

If you have anything to add about numbers of free prostitutes etc. please supply a reference as I have done many times. We shouldnt have to listen to this rubbish just so that you feel better about what you do.

T runner

T runner wrote: »

This is unsubstantiated nonsense.

Not really, since I am from Athlone, and I do currently live here. :rolleyes:

95% of prostitutes in Ireland are foreign, mainly from eastern europe.

Foreign yes, but mainly Eastern Europe? Sure quite a few are, just as there are Irish, British, Spanish, Italian, French, Brazilian, Chinese, Thai etc etc.

And I love this % you're using since its impossible to know the total population of prostitutes in this country even excluding touring escorts.

There are not thousands of women who are "free" to move around.
Can you provide ANY evidence that this is so?
Or let me guess are we back to your personal experience again.

Funnily enough you're not providing any links to disprove my assertions either. And do you have anything that proves that the majority of escorts in this country are under lock and key unable to move around?

I've looked through your evidence & reports quite a few times.. It does highlight the problems of trafficking and forced prostitution in this country. And it does indicate that its a growing problem. (Which I've never denied) It does not indicate that the majority of prostitutes are restrained, and forced to do their work. These surveys, and reports have taken a segment of the prostitution industry to research on with limited participants. They're not as comprehensive as you would like to make believe.

As for my personal experience, well, you can ignore it. I don't mind.

You use prostitutes (youve said so on this thread) and it doesnt sit well with you that many of these women have been coerced into prostitution.
Difficult to continue using prostitutes knowing that. Yet the only comprehensive report on the subject with significant input from the Gardai and the HSE says that this is so.

Actually I've said that I've gone to prostitutes in the past, not that I'm currently doing so. As for being comprehensive, its one of the first reports of its type about this industry. While I agree with some points, I don't believe they've got it right in all areas. But you're also aiming to see what you want to see. Namely that every escort in this country is forced into it.

I'd be more interested in seeing further investigations into this subject from other bodies, now that the initial reports have been done.

If you have anything to add about numbers of free prostitutes etc. please supply a reference as I have done many times. We shouldnt have to listen to this rubbish just so that you feel better about what you do.

Haha.. you're funny. Many of the links and evidence you've provided has been argued over by posters on this thread with some rather reasonable arguments, and you've ignored them for the most part. Why should I bother supplying links when you're just as likely to ignore them too?

You have your opinion. You stick to it. Just ignore my posts. Much easier for both of us that way. That way I don't have to bother responding to your rubbish, and you can ignore my rubbish. Fair?

stapolinhosting

Deleted User wrote: »

Thats interesting since I am also from Athlone (living there now in fact), was aware of said brothel, and the girls that worked there were seen around the town. Prostitution in Athlone is well recognised, and most locals know the girls that partake of it. And most are doing so freelance without pimps or handlers. Its only the eastern europeans (polish, Russians etc) who came over with boyfriends who have pimps.

This brothel definitely had a pimp, he was a little short arse, showed up every few days with another woman sometimes.

You're choosing to label the whole area of prostitution based on a few brothels or the aggressive methods of eastern europeans. By doing this, you're ignoring the thousands of women who are independent escorts without any supervision or anyone to order them around. But that hardly fits with the abused and coerced prostitute attitude.

not really, I was talking about one brothel in particular.

Oh, I agree that it does happen... But what do you suggest? Continued illegality and no rights for prostitutes? Brothels and these types of forcing/blackmailing will continue as long as women (and in some cases, men) have no alternative option or legal recourse.

I'm not suggesting anything really. Even if it was made legal, there is always going to be a 'black market'. It's a no win situation.

During your whole time living there, watching these guys go in, did you ever call the gardai to report such illegalities?

I did one better... I gave them a dvd which i recorded over a week showing all the people going in and out. Were mainly builders who were working up at Connaught Street and a couple of business owners from west of the river. There was even one lad who spent about 20 minutes knocking on one of the shed doors thinking he was at the brothel, I when out to him and told him he was knocking on the wrong door and he just turned bright pink and ran. haha.

I feel sorry for anyone in this industry whether they were forced into it, or whether they chose of their own free will. As long as it remains illegal, and unregulated, many will be taken advantage of by criminals, those simply smarter, their customers, other escorts, the law, etc etc etc.

See, the thing about it is, even many of the ones doing it at their own free will must be doing it under desperation to earn money. Surly not all who do it, are happy doing it.

Like I said above, it has to be a no win situation for the majority of the women doing it.

T runner

Deleted User wrote: »

Not really, since I am from Athlone, and I do currently live here. :rolleyes:

Do you actually understand what substantiated evidence is?
Saying that you are from Athlone and saying therefore that anything you say id true does not amount to substantiated evidence. Do you understand?

And I love this % you're using since its impossible to know the total population of prostitutes in this country even excluding touring escorts.

FROM


There is a minimum of 1,000 women in indoor prostitution in
Ireland at any one time

Funnily enough you're not providing any links to disprove my assertions either. And do you have anything that proves that the majority of escorts in this country are under lock and key unable to move around?

As you know and as I have stated I have provided dozens of links to disprove
your unsubstantiated assertions on this thread.

I've looked through your evidence & reports quite a few times.

.

They are not my reports they are reports carried out and referenced by respected and official organisations.

As for my personal experience, well, you can ignore it. I don't mind.

Yes I will because you have not nad cannot back it up with any substantiation.

Actually I've said that I've gone to prostitutes in the past, not that I'm currently doing so.

Noted

As for being comprehensive, its one of the first reports of its type about this industry. While I agree with some points, I don't believe they've got it right in all areas. But you're also aiming to see what you want to see. Namely that every escort in this country is forced into it.

I'd be more interested in seeing further investigations into this subject from other bodies, now that the initial reports have been done.



Haha.. you're funny.

Many of the links and evidence you've provided has been argued over by posters on this thread with some rather reasonable arguments, and you've ignored them for the most part.

Which arguments have I ignored?

Why should I bother supplying links when you're just as likely to ignore them too?

Is that all you can come up with? Dont you think people will see through that excuse.

That way I don't have to bother responding to your rubbish, and you can ignore my rubbish

Speak for yourself, I dont post rubbish-I substantiate my arguments which gives them validity.

You wont get off that easy. If you post up ill-informed personal opinion about something you clearly know nothing about then it will be challenged by me or someone else.

I'm in the middle of exams atm, but I'll reply in a few days.

musicmonky

more interesting stuff... Senegal is the spot to be for the “love tourism”

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/senegal/100428/senegal-news-sex-tourism?page=0,0

i don't see any point in trying to change any ones view here.
I'm not interested in what other people think.
humans don't change their point of view unless they find god or something.

aka, a life changing event happens that makes them re think.

just realise some people have one view and other people have another.

nachoman

I don't agree with prostitution, but i've heard stories of women who pay their way through college by being high class escort girls, who's exploiting these people?

T runner

nachoman wrote: »

I don't agree with prostitution, but i've heard stories of women who pay their way through college by being high class escort girls, who's exploiting these people?

First of all were back to the usual "ive heard stories" stuff on that side of the argument. Absolutley no substantiation probably because it doesnt exist.

The Swedish government has made it illegal to buy sex. This is because they correctly identify the man paying for sex as the one with the choice in the illegal encounter. Therfore I would argue that the client is always one of the exploiters of women in prostitution. Prostitution is always degrading.

It is extremely bad for the prostitutes health as evidenced by the HSE reports. If you think a prostitute is not being degraded or exploited by low lifes who are prepared to injure a young woman physically and emptionally by using her body basely then you do not understand its nature.

Did your friends not tell you that?

musicmonky

[QUOTE=

The Swedish government has made it illegal to buy sex. This is because they correctly identify the man paying for sex as the one with the choice in the illegal encounter. Therfore I would argue that the client is always one of the exploiters of women in prostitution. Prostitution is always degrading.

It is extremely bad for the prostitutes health as evidenced by the HSE reports. If you think a prostitute is not being degraded or exploited by low lifes who are prepared to injure a young woman physically and emptionally by using her body basely then you do not understand its nature.

Did your friends not tell you that?[/QUOTE]

nice finger pointing, point.

musicmonky

shocking stuff..
the biggest problem with prostitution is in the poorest countries and its bad.
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/04/29/cnnheroes.koirala.nepal/


the rich countries don't tend to have major problem allowing some prostitution
http://prostitution.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000772#ireland

dermothickey

I blame porn..when you think of it truthfully in porn people look at supermodels and the average joe soap thinks hmmm thats what I want...goes out to the club boogey down on a saturday night all dressed up and goes home with PAM and her 5 sisters...couple of years of this, self esteem gets knocked then starts paying for it.... basically looking beyond his league.

Just saying...I've never been with a prostitute but I've often ended up paying for a girl's night out sucker that I was.

AARRRGH

dermothickey wrote: »

I blame porn..when you think of it truthfully in porn people look at supermodels and the average joe soap thinks hmmm thats what I want...goes out to the club boogey down on a saturday night all dressed up and goes home with PAM and her 5 sisters...couple of years of this, self esteem gets knocked then starts paying for it.... basically looking beyond his league.

The average person who uses prostitutes is seperated or divorced, wealthy, and aged 40+. They don't have self esteem issues; they seem to simply want no strings attached sex or like young women.

JohnK

ISAW wrote: »

Yes because in the main prostitutes dont get paid for anything already done and most of the money goes to other people who hurt them if they don't work for him. They are usually called pimps but beating up women ins't the only thing they do nor its it done in all cases by pimps. their main job is encouraging business.
[...]
A look at poage 41 and 42 should make you consider your position and the ones after that show the correlation with other crime. By the way i don't accept the researchers figures here of only about a third going to the pimp. Oh and you might also not that the prostitutes are working in other jobs as well. They maks about $25 an hour and $300 a week! that was in 2004 by the way.

In relation to the money aspect and what the women get, listening to the radio this morning they are talking about the recent sentencing of Tony Linnane for running a brothel in Cork and mentioned some interesting figures. What the police found was 50% went to the brothel and 50% to the women. The actual pricing was 250 for an hour, 150 for sex, 130 for oral & 100 for 'hand relief'.

Its also mentioned in the Independent where interestingly they quote the police noting the lack of human trafficking & coercion in this case. http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/jailed-brothel-operator-to-pay-total-tax-bill-of-836415m-2177900.html

Det Insp Sullivan said there was no question of human trafficking or coercion in the case. The women who worked as prostitutes all did so voluntarily, and split the profits with Linnane on a 50/50 basis.

AARRRGH

JohnK wrote: »

Its also mentioned in the Independent where interestingly they quote the police noting the lack of human trafficking & coercion in this case. http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/jailed-brothel-operator-to-pay-total-tax-bill-of-836415m-2177900.html

Det Insp Sullivan said there was no question of human trafficking or coercion in the case. The women who worked as prostitutes all did so voluntarily, and split the profits with Linnane on a 50/50 basis.

Human trafficking is totally abnormal in the Irish prostitution industry so we should not be suprised.

Of course, someone will come along any minute now and say every prosititute is forced or coerced...