Prostitution

AARRRGH

Alright, I've wasted enough time talking to you. I am saddened though that you really cannot see that you are seeking the warped opinions of extremists to back up your own extreme beliefs, and you are unable to even acknowledge alternate opinions. Best of luck.

T runner

AARRRGH wrote: »

Alright, I've wasted enough time talking to you. I am saddened though that you really cannot see that you are seeking the warped opinions of extremists to back up your own extreme beliefs, and you are unable to even acknowledge alternate opinions. Best of luck.

The Irish Immigrant Council arent extremists, neither are the Gardai, the HSE, the Swedish government and police. Neither are the International official organisations with statistics and profiles on actual trafficked women. Nor dare I say it are Ruhama.

Unfortunately your only substantiation for your "alternate opinions" are seemingly bogus claims that you rang the Irish Immigrant Council doing a story about the sex industry and they told you all their info was form Ruhama.

Ive asked you for a link to this story. We can only assume your silence means that this "article" doesnt exist and really shows how extremists are prepared to warp the truth to fool people into believing things that are clearly untrue.

As no substantiation (apart from deception) has come to refute the substantive findings of the Immigrant Council it may be best to bump the findings up so that people can get a refresh (without the unfounded attacks on the good peopel at the IIC.

T runner

Heres some information on trafficking in the Irish contaxt that shoule be relevant to this thread.

Globalisation, Sex Trafficking and Prostitution - the Experiences of Migrant Women in Ireland

Some of the data is disturbing. One of the partners in the research is the HSE so this appears to be as authoritive as you can get in clandestine matters like trafficking and prostitution:



Over a 21-month period, between January 2007 and September 2008, 102 women were identified by ten services as being trafficked into or through Ireland.

This research found that 11 per cent of the 102 women trafficked were children at the time they were trafficked to Ireland. 26 of these women knew of a further 66 women.

It is mainly women who escape, are rescued or who have paid off their indentured ‘labour’ that come to the attention of services. Therefore the above number is an underestimation.

Information was available on the type of prostitution involved for 84 women.
The vast majority (90 per cent or 76 women) were in indoor prostitution,
6 per cent (5) were involved in both indoor and outdoor, and 4 per cent (3) were involved in outdoor prostitution only

Services that identified women as trafficked for this research use the United
Nations (UN) Palermo Protocol 8 on Trafficking.

When women who are trafficked reach Ireland, they are sometimes passed over to Irish brothel owners who prostitute them. Other women are held and
prostituted by the original traffickers.

Men who buy sex from women tend to be highly educated,
have incomes in the middle range and are employed in
professional occupations (Layte et al 2006)

Concerns were voiced among some men about the trafficking of women and girls for the purpose of sexual exploitation, with 25 per cent of men stating that they had met a woman who they felt was being forced into prostitution (Escort Surveys 2006).

The study by Conroy (2003) found that 10 per cent of separated
children arriving in Ireland are the subject of investigation as a
result of suspicions of trafficking or smuggling. The report cites
16 cases of child trafficking, which it compiled from newpaper
reports and professional personnel.

There is now overwhelming evidence that violence is intrinsic to prostitution
(Hoigard and Finstad 1992; Farley et al 2003). Staff of the WHP (HSE) receive
regular reports from women on the violence inflicted on them:

And heres the sexual habits of Irish gentlemen who visit prostitutes:

• 57 per cent of buyers had unprotected oral sex without ejaculation into
the escort’s mouth, while 58 per cent of escorts offered this service
• 38 per cent of buyers reported that they had unprotected oral sex with
ejaculation into the escort’s mouth, while 25 per cent of escorts offered
this service
• 36 per cent of buyers engaged in anal sex, while 32 per cent of escorts
offered this service
• 30 per cent of buyers engaged in facials (ejaculating on the face of the
escort) while 40 per cent of escorts offered this service
• 22 per cent of buyers dressed up in uniforms, while 78 per cent of
escorts offered this service
• 9 per cent of buyers stated that they had availed of unprotected
vaginal sex while no escort had advertised this service

WHIPIT

CoolGuy2006 wrote: »

Ok, im a guy, mid 20's.
My problem is with prostitution. Why has it become so acceptable nowadays.
Most of my friends have been with prostitutes and in my last job none of the guys were shy about talking about their past experiences either.

My friends would appear to have good morals on a day to day basis but every now and then they will head over to amsterdam to do the usual. This kinda thing is so common with men in General, far more common then i ever would have believed. I always pictured old desperate men going to prostitues but my mates are all young and good looking and would have no problem meeting up with a nice girl, whenever they want.

Even a good mate of mine came back from travelling and told me he met a prostitue in a park and did the business. WTF

He now has a lovely girlfriend who i know would be disgusted if she new this. You just wouldnt imagine this guy doing this kinda thing.

So, whats my problem i hear you say. Well, my problem is that i think Guys and most people now like to sugar coat the whole thing. Saying that the girls make good money and are saving up for houses, cars, blah blah blah. I think people put the real truth to the very back of their minds. Some of these women are in very desperate situations, some of thes women are sex slaves, kidnapped women kept in brothels

I was talking to one of my girlfriends about it and she said that she and her friends know that most guys do this kinda thing so there isnt anything they can really do about it. She just accepts it. I dunno, i think most girls would be shocked to find out how common this kinda thing really is.

I am moving to Hamburg in two weeks, prostitution is legal there and at night the prostitutes are all over the main party streets. My girlfriend who is German said the usual, blah blah blah, they are saving for cars and houses.

I showed her an article in a german magazine that talked about the trafficking of sex slaves into germany and the rest of western europe. Its like my girlfriend and her friends had never even given this a thought before. In the article a prostitute was interviewed. They quoted her as saying that she gets a little sense of satisfaction from sleeping with these men because they are probably less likely to go home and abuse their kids - WTF

Its strange walking down the Reeperbahn in hamburg and you see groups of lads, irish, English, Scottish, all just walking around in groups and going over to make arrangements with the prostitues. These are guys who think they can go abroad and fulfill their sexual needs and come home and leave it all behind.You can see it in their eyes, you can see the guilt, but they all act jack the lad with their mates.

I think people look at prostitution two ways.

1: is that they see the women as business women who are getting a good deal and saving for a good future.

2: its degrading to women and men and there is always the chance that the person is a sex slave who has been trafficked out of their home country

Why does everyone just accept it as part of modern life. Why do guys who normaly are of good character feel that when they go abroad they can throw money at a girl in a desperate situation, then come home and lead the normal good moral high life again

Recently in PI there was a post about prostitution and i was to supprised to hear some girls saying they had no problem with prostituion. I just think that the real reality is alot different than what some people would lead you to believe.

Stand on the reeperbahn for 5 mins, watch the groups of lads, probably from your hometown walk around with a beer in one hand, going up the the girls with the confidence they only wished they had with a girl back home. A few days later they arrive in dublin airport and agree with their mates, "What happened there, stays there" :-(

Obviously it could be anywhere, amsterdam, germany, spain, thailand.
I just think its a real shame what men allow themselves to do for their own gratification and then come home and pretend to be a different person in front of the girls they meet here. I dont think most girls here have a clue what really goes on.


Should i come down off my high Horse.

No you dont need to come down of your high horse, just stay with the horse and let everyone ride theres, everyone to themselves and remember most women do this of there own free will. But one thing is for sure i dont agree with the trafficing.

AARRRGH

WHIPIT wrote: »

No you dont need to come down of your high horse, just stay with the horse and let everyone ride theres, everyone to themselves and remember most women do this of there own free will. But one thing is for sure i dont agree with the trafficing.

The problem is trafficking no longer means what everyone thinks it means. But I understand what you are saying: you disagree with the concept of a woman being tricked or kidnapped and forced to work as a prostitute. Luckily that is a near non-existant problem in Ireland.

T runner

AARRRGH wrote: »

The problem is trafficking no longer means what everyone thinks it means. But I understand what you are saying: you disagree with the concept of a woman being tricked or kidnapped and forced to work as a prostitute. Luckily that is a near non-existant problem in Ireland.

Substantiated information says that Gardai freed 105 women of this description in Ireland in the last 2 years. Have you any evidence at all to back your claim that it is non-existant? Did the guards misinform?

Still waiting for a link to your (non-existant?) report on the sex industry in Ireland.................................

T runner

WHIPIT wrote: »

No you dont need to come down of your high horse, just stay with the horse and let everyone ride theres, everyone to themselves and remember most women do this of there own free will. But one thing is for sure i dont agree with the trafficing.

Most women are forced to work many weeks in advance and will not get paid if they leave. Some are beaten if they ask to leave. Health problems due to the profession are huge and tend to be permanent. Many of the women in the profession came in from an extremely vulnerable position. 91% of women want out.
"remember most women do this of there own free will. "

Highly debatable, but sure whatever makes these men feel a bit less guilty when they're doing the biz is good right?

AARRRGH

T runner wrote: »

Substantiated information says that Gardai freed 105 women of this description in Ireland in the last 2 years. Have you any evidence at all to back your claim that it is non-existant? Did the guards misinform?

Still waiting for a link to your (non-existant?) report on the sex industry in Ireland.................................

I've stopped reading your posts as they are extremist nonsense, so there's no need to ask me questions.

Your posts are hilarious though, it's just a pity you actually believe the crap you're saying.

Kazah

I work with women in prostitution and they do not seem happy professionals to me. what gets me most is their talk about "normal life" as opposed to their current life. How would you explain this?

I do not believe workers in McDonald refer to their lives as 'abnormal'

AARRRGH

Kazah wrote: »

I work with women in prostitution and they do not seem happy professionals to me.

I work with people in IT and they do not seem like happy professionals to me.

...

I don't think anyone is trying to claim prostitutes love their job. They are simply saying it is wrong to assume they are all unhappy or abused or whatever.

No doubt it's a very hard job, but it pays accordingly.

As stated, I knew many prostitutes and they all chose to do it. The ones who left because they disliked it ALL returned to it as the money is just too good. Why work for €10 per hour when you can work for €300 per hour?

Kazah wrote: »

what gets me most is their talk about "normal life" as opposed to their current life. How would you explain this?

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

T runner

I don't think anyone is trying to claim prostitutes love their job. They are simply saying it is wrong to assume they are all unhappy or abused or whatever.

Nobodies assuming anything. Substantiated evidence from the only comprehensive report on prostitution carried out in Ireland says that 91% of prostitutes wanted out.

I can list all the reasons if you like but take it that physical and mental health reasons are to the fore.

No doubt it's a very hard job, but it pays accordingly.

No it doesnt. If a prostitute wants to leave she will receive NO pay for the previous 3 weeks work.

As stated, I knew many prostitutes and they all chose to do it.

You understand that using prostitutes does not mean "knowing" them.

The ones who left because they disliked it ALL returned to it as the money is just too good.

.

That is simply untrue. Can you substantiate this? I thought not.

There is now overwhelming evidence that violence is intrinsic to prostitution
(Hoigard and Finstad 1992; Farley et al 2003). Staff of the WHP (HSE) receive
regular reports from women on the violence inflicted on them.

Why would you return to beatings, emotional worthlessness and ill-health?

Why work for €10 per hour when you can work for €300 per hour?

Can you substantiate that the average receives 300 euro per hour?

Did any of the 102 trafficked women discovered by gardai in Ireland or the other 65 they described get paid 300 euro per hour?
Have you any evidence that the average indoor prostitute in Ireland even gets this?

BTW You claimed you were in contact with the Irish Immigrant Council about a report on the sex industry in Ireland?

For the last time can you provide a link to this report?
If you cant and were making this up how can you ecxpect anyone on this thread to believe a single word you say?

AARRRGH

Your posts make no sense whatsoever. They are borderline crazy at this stage.

You seem to think prostitution is not well paid and if a prostitute wants to leave she will receive NO pay for the previous 3 weeks work.

What an utterly bizarre thing to say. I don't even know how to respond to that as it is totally mental.

You then go on to say I use prostitutes.

What a weird assumption. I don't nor have I ever used a prostitute. It's really not my thing. I'm just a person who used to write about the sex industry, and worked within the sex industry hence why I know what it is really like.

I then state that the prostitutes I knew left and then returned to the industry because no "normal" job could compete with the amount of money they used to make. You reply by saying that it is "simply untrue" and ask for evidence. What a mad response.

You then state that violence and prostitution are intrinsic and that prostitutes suffer from "beatings, emotional worthlessness and ill-health". Wow. What a massive sweeping generalisation that is. None of the prostitutes I knew experienced anything like that. That's not to say it doesn't happen (I'm sure it does) but again you only want to focus on the worst case scenarios. You simply don't have a realistic understanding of what prostitution is really like. But that's because you're an extremist and extremists believe crazy things.

You then state that you do not believe prostitutes earn an average of €300 an hour. And I agree with you on this - they obviously all don't. But many do. Go take a look at escortireland.com to see the prices.

And then you make some weird comment about wanting a report from the Immigrant Council of Ireland. I don't know what you're talking about there.

At this stage you've painted a pretty good picture of what sort of person you are. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you mean well, but really, your grasp on the reality of prostitution is very light and you really need to go out into the real world and spend some time with prostitutes to see your mad opinions on the topic are way out of sync with reality. I feel sorry for you, genuinely, because I think you are very confused.

T runner

AARRRGH wrote: »

Your posts make no sense whatsoever. They are borderline crazy at this stage.

Whatever you say.

You seem to think prostitution is not well paid and if a prostitute wants to leave she will receive NO pay for the previous 3 weeks work.

Many prostitutes work in advance and if they approach their employer and tell him they want to leave and can they have the cash thats due to them? they generally wont get the cash but they might get a lot worse. One of the reasons why 91% of Irish prostitutes want out but many cant.

What an utterly bizarre thing to say. I don't even know how to respond to that as it is totally mental.

This has been substantiated from the report on prostitution and trafficking carried out by the IIC. If you want to refute it and people to believe you then supply some evidence to back your arguments like I do.

I'm just a person who used to write about the sex industry, and worked within the sex industry hence why I know what it is really like. I then state that the prostitutes I knew left and then returned to the industry because no "normal" job could compete with the amount of money they used to make. You reply by saying that it is "simply untrue" and ask for evidence. What a mad response.

Asking for evidence to prove a point is quite common on this type of forum you will find. Your attempt to build a case that I am "mental" and therefore my arguments are wrong is not going to well is it?

You then state that violence and prostitution are intrinsic and that prostitutes suffer from "beatings, emotional worthlessness and ill-health".

I didnt state it state it was: Hoigard and Finstad 1992; Farley et al 2003

None of the prostitutes I knew experienced anything like that. That's not to say it doesn't happen (I'm sure it does) but again you only want to focus on the worst case scenarios.

The conclusion from Hoigard and Finstad was that "there is now overwhelming evidence that violence is intrinsic to prostitution". "Intrinsic" implies a lot more than worst case scenario doesn't it?

But that's because you're an extremist and extremists believe crazy things.

Can you supply is with any evidence from this thread to back this conclusion? Is that really an adult way to debate?

And then you make some weird comment about wanting a report from the Immigrant Council of Ireland. I don't know what you're talking about there.

Dont you? Then why did you say this?

AARRRGH wrote: »

If it means anything to you, I rang the Immigrant Council of Ireland last year to ask where they get their data from. Their answer? Ruhama. (I was writing an article about the sex industry at the time, and trying to figure out if all the negative stories came from Ruhama's office.)

You even state in your last post that you used to write about the sex industry. Ive asked you on a number of occasions to supply us with a link to this article/or any article on the sex industry that you may have written:

From T Runner

"Unfortunately your only substantiation for your "alternate opinions" are seemingly bogus claims that you rang the Irish Immigrant Council doing a story about the sex industry and they told you all their info was form Ruhama.

We can only assume now that your silence means that this "article" doesnt exist and really shows how extremists are prepared to warp the truth to fool people into believing things that are clearly untrue."

Can you provide us with a link to this story now? (or were you as is now glaringly obvious, fibbing about writing reports about the sex industry.) You never wrote about the sex industry did you? You made that up.

AARRRGH

T-Runner, I haven't bothered to read your reply, but I think at this stage we should agree to disagree.

If you can, please spend some time with prostitutes. You will see most are not the desperate creatures you want them to be. Relying on second-hand information from extremist feminists or religious nuts is giving you a warped opinion of the industry.

As I said earlier, I have first hand experience in the industry and I have nothing to gain by saying the things I have been saying.

T runner

AARRRGH wrote: »

T-Runner, I haven't bothered to read your reply, but I think at this stage we should agree to disagree.

You say that because in my reply I asked you explicitly to verify your claim that you wrote articles on the sex industry. You didnt write any articles so you pretend to have not read the post as the easy way out. It is clear. You are spoofing.

You will see most are not the desperate creatures you want them to be. Relying on second-hand information from extremist feminists or religious nuts is giving you a warped opinion of the industry.

The sources which inform my opinion are the Irish immigration councils excellent report, the HSE, the Gardai and various reputable international sources including a report by the Swedish police.

You have given no source bar your claim that you wrote articles about the sex industry. You have been asked several times to prove this. You cant because it is a spoof.

As I said earlier, I have first hand experience in the industry and I have nothing to gain by saying the things I have been saying.

I doubt you have any real experience of the industry. You certainly have never written an article on the sex industrty and more than likely have never written any article on anything. I dont know what your agenda is, but I know you are spoofing.

AARRRGH

T runner, I used to run a sex blog which investigated the Irish sex industry. It's domain was Sex.ie. It was high profile and was regularly mentioned in various newspapers and magazines. I was also a regular speaker on radio shows about prostitution, etc.

I used to run various porn sites (including a vary large network which attracted millions of unique visitors per week) and I used to run an original content site -- yes, I used to produce porn. This is how I got to know many people who work in the Irish sex undustry.

So I actually spent time in the industry, meeting prostitutes face to face and discussing their issues. That is why I have a strong opinion on this topic because the "research" done by extremist groups like Ruhama, etc. are totally out of whack with my own experiences.

I am still in touch with many prostitutes who I worked with and who I became friends with, and from what they tell me the industry is getting better, not worse.

Note all of this was over a period of about 10 years.

Of course, I accept there are some problems (every industry has problems), and I accept prostitution is a very tough job, but the scale of these problems is no where near what you and others want them to be.

I have said this to you many times, but you have to examine who is giving you your information, and if they might have an agenda. Christian groups and extremist feminists should not be considered reliable sources of information.

AARRRGH

AARRRGH wrote: »

every industry has problems

I'd just like to pick up on this point.

Every industry has problems. If you are motivated, you can find problems with everything.

For example, T Runner, from your other posts I can see you have worn Nike and recommend Adidas shoes when jogging. It doesn't take much googling to see both of these companies use child labour in sweat shops to produce some of their products.

Another example, T Runner, is choosing to eat meat. I chose to become a vegetarian because of how insanely cruel our intensive farming is.

Personally I would think paying an adult to have sex with you is a lot more acceptable than supporting child labour or cruelly killing animals because you like the taste of meat, but that's just me. I don't rant at people about it because I realise everything, when studied in great detail, has its problems.

But I accept not all footwear is made by children, and I accept not all farming is overly cruel, so you won't see me making sweeping generalisations about both industries, and you won't see me using research by extremists to make extreme statements.

You should focus on making your own life ethical before getting so hot and bothered about other people's sex lives.

Scanlas The 2nd

AARRRGH wrote: »

T runner, I used to run a sex blog which investigated the Irish sex industry. It's domain was Sex.ie. It was high profile and was regularly mentioned in various newspapers and magazines. I was also a regular speaker on radio shows about prostitution, etc.

I used to run various porn sites (including a vary large network which attracted millions of unique visitors per week) and I used to run an original content site -- yes, I used to produce porn. This is how I got to know many people who work in the Irish sex undustry.

So I actually spent time in the industry, meeting prostitutes face to face and discussing their issues. That is why I have a strong opinion on this topic because the "research" done by extremist groups like Ruhama, etc. are totally out of whack with my own experiences.

I am still in touch with many prostitutes who I worked with and who I became friends with, and from what they tell me the industry is getting better, not worse.

Note all of this was over a period of about 10 years.

Of course, I accept there are some problems (every industry has problems), and I accept prostitution is a very tough job, but the scale of these problems is no where near what you and others want them to be.

I have said this to you many times, but you have to examine who is giving you your information, and if they might have an agenda. Christian groups and extremist feminists should not be considered reliable sources of information.

I think an interesting question to ask is why do so many people seemingly want the sex industry to have terrible affects on prostitutes.

T runner

AARRRGH wrote: »

T runner, I used to run a sex blog which investigated the Irish sex industry. It's domain was Sex.ie. It was high profile and was regularly mentioned in various newspapers and magazines. I was also a regular speaker on radio shows about prostitution, etc.

Links please: no more spoofing.

I used to run various porn sites (including a vary large network which attracted millions of unique visitors per week) and I used to run an original content site -- yes, I used to produce porn. This is how I got to know many people who work in the Irish sex undustry.

Links please: Stop spoofing

So I actually spent time in the industry, meeting prostitutes face to face and discussing their issues.

Why would you meet prostitutes face to face let alone discuss their issues with them if you were producing porn?

That is why I have a strong opinion on this topic because the "research" done by extremist groups like Ruhama, etc. are totally out of whack with my own experiences.

Your experiences mean nothing if you cant substantiate them as fact.

I am still in touch with many prostitutes who I worked with and who I became friends with, and from what they tell me the industry is getting better, not worse.

Again, why would you know and befirend prostitutes iof you were producing porn?

Of course, I accept there are some problems (every industry has problems), and I accept prostitution is a very tough job, but the scale of these problems is no where near what you and others want them to be.

I dont want then to be anything. I am quoting substantiated facts from the Irish Immigrant Council, The Gardai, the HSE, Ruhama, The Swedish Government and Police and International lists of trafficked women.

Tou have not produced one source for your ideas bar I used to know prostitutes blah blah blah. If you want anyone to take you seriously start substantiating your ideas. Otherwise it is clear as day you are spoofing.

I have said this to you many times, but you have to examine who is giving you your information, and if they might have an agenda. Christian groups and extremist feminists should not be considered reliable sources of information

And I have asked you amny times are The Irish Immigrant Council, The Gardai, the HSE, Ruhama, The Swedish Government and Police and International groups with official lists of trafficked women reliable sources?


You wont answer because you cant. You cant because you are spoofing.

For the last time. You claimed you rang the Irish Immigrant Council to ask them for their sources as part as an article you were writing. Please give us a source for this specific article. If you cant it means your statement was not honest and you are not to be believed on this issue.

T runner

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

I think an interesting question to ask is why do so many people seemingly want the sex industry to have terrible affects on prostitutes.

Nobody wants it to have terrible affects on prostitutes: it is facts from the likes of the HSE and the Gardai and the Irish Immigrant Council which tells us it has.

ISAW

AARRRGH wrote: »

Why work for €10 per hour when you can work for €300 per hour?

It is called values. If you got 300 an hour for slapping women around or being a Nazi camp guard and incinerating Jews and Gypies would that be okay?
The truth is that many prostitutes may charge 300 an hour and only get 10 and hour because their pimp will beat them to a pulp for keeping the rent. don't try to gloriry prostitutes . They don't choose to do what they do.


By the way charging for sex or having one night stands isn't illegal in Ireland. People may view it as immoral but it isn't illegal. prostitution is illegal! Why ? Because of organised crime! similar for drugs. Yes you may view them as immoral but if drugs an prostitution weren't involved in BIG money and were just a "free" exchange then the loudmouth "rights2 people would not be interested because they have no money to gain.


Te topic is simply this- You can sell sex for money . It may be immoral but you can do it legally . But if you do it nasty other people nothing to do with you get involved. THAT is the societal problem with prostitution.

ISAW

WHIPIT wrote: »

remember most women do this of there own free will.

And your evidence is?

And how about most male prostitutes?

And if your unsupported opinion is correct what about those who don't do it of their own free will?
And what if you find your opinion is drastically wrong and you find most womes are cohersed into prostitution?

But one thing is for sure i dont agree with the trafficing.

But you agree with all other aspects of prostitution?
The debate is a bit broader. Let us say we are discussing legalising drug use or whether there is a criminal element to society who push drugs and regulate the business with violence. How does saying "I don't agree with heroine trafficking" assist this debate?

ISAW

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

I think an interesting question to ask is why do so many people seemingly want the sex industry to have terrible affects on prostitutes.

Indeed and an even more interesting question to ask is whether it can reliably and validly be demonstrated by independent peer reviewed objective research whether the sex industry has a terrible effect of prostitutes. It would seem the overwhelming published evidence is that it does!
http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/pdfs/Farley_Kelly.pdf

For the vast majority of the world’s prostituted women, prostitution is
the experience of being hunted, dominated, harassed, assaulted, and battered.
Intrinsic to prostitution are numerous violations of human rights: sexual
harassment, economic servitude, educational deprivation, job discrimination,
domestic violence, racism, classism, vulnerability to frequent physical and
sexual assault, and being subjected to body invasions which are equivalent to
torture. p.29

AARRRGH

ISAW wrote: »

It is called values.

And values are subjective. Which is one of my basic points. Just because you think it is wrong doesn't mean everyone else does.

ISAW wrote: »

The truth is that many prostitutes may charge 300 an hour and only get 10 and hour because their pimp will beat them to a pulp for keeping the rent. don't try to gloriry prostitutes . They don't choose to do what they do.

LOL, come on, you sound like your knowledge of this topic is based on what you saw in a couple of Hollywood movies.

ISAW wrote: »

By the way charging for sex or having one night stands isn't illegal in Ireland. People may view it as immoral but it isn't illegal. prostitution is illegal!

Prostitution is not illegal. This is what is illegal:

Managing a prostitute
Advertising prostitution
Soliciting on the street

ISAW wrote: »

Te topic is simply this- You can sell sex for money . It may be immoral but you can do it legally . But if you do it nasty other people nothing to do with you get involved. THAT is the societal problem with prostitution.

Prostitution is only immoral in your opinion. The prostitute (and others, e.g. me) do not consider it immoral.

AARRRGH

T runner wrote: »

For the last time. You claimed you rang the Irish Immigrant Council to ask them for their sources as part as an article you were writing. Please give us a source for this specific article. If you cant it means your statement was not honest and you are not to be believed on this issue.

There is some confusion.

The Immigrant Council published a press release claiming they are working with many prostitutes who have been "trafficked". I rang them and asked them about the article. They told me they were just publishing a press release on behalf of Ruhama -- the Immigrant Council themselves had never met any of these girls nor could they confirm they exist.

This was maybe 3 years ago.

As stated a million times, there are many crazy people working within the prostitution industry so you need to be really careful where you are getting your information from. There is a lot of misinformation.

But I know you won't be able to understand this so once again I am wasting my time responding to you.

AARRRGH

T runner wrote: »

Links please: no more spoofing.

T runner wrote: »

Links please: Stop spoofing

I couldn't be bothered. Honestly I think you might be a bit unstable so I even feel responding to you is a waste of my time.

T runner wrote: »

Why would you meet prostitutes face to face let alone discuss their issues with them if you were producing porn?

T runner wrote: »

why would you know and befirend prostitutes iof you were producing porn?

You know I wrote about the Irish sex industry, and you know I used to produce porn. Why don't you try to put 2 + 2 together?

T runner wrote: »

I dont want then to be anything. I am quoting substantiated facts from the Irish Immigrant Council, The Gardai, the HSE, Ruhama, The Swedish Government and Police and International lists of trafficked women.

No, the problem is you will only quote from articles written by extremists. The fact that you cannot understand why this is a problem says so much about you.

You are coming across as a very odd person.

ISAW

AARRRGH wrote: »

You seem to think prostitution is not well paid and if a prostitute wants to leave she will receive NO pay for the previous 3 weeks work.

What an utterly bizarre thing to say. I don't even know how to respond to that as it is totally mental.

Yes because in the main prostitutes dont get paid for anything already done and most of the money goes to other people who hurt them if they don't work for him. They are usually called pimps but beating up women ins't the only thing they do nor its it done in all cases by pimps. their main job is encouraging business.

I don't nor have I ever used a prostitute. It's really not my thing. I'm just a person who used to write about the sex industry, and worked within the sex industry hence why I know what it is really like.

I guess you didn't work as a prostitute and you say you were never a client.
so you worked as a pimp? And on this basis you claim superiour knowledge of the
personal feelings of prostitutes are really like?

I then state that the prostitutes I knew left and then returned to the industry because no "normal" job could compete with the amount of money they used to make.

first I don't believe you. There is ample evidence i am sure that prostitutes if given support will leave it. Second even if a prostitute you know returned to prostitution the liklihood is that they didn't have the experience or education to do other things because they never availed of the opportunity to get an education. Probably because they were busy being a prostitute. You could say the same of a drug pusher. Just because they might make less money elsewhere [and "freakonomics" (Steven Levitt and Stephen J. Dubner (2005). Freakonomics: A Rogue Economist Explores the Hidden Side of Everything. William Morrow/HarperCollins. ISBN 0-06-073132-X. See chapter 3) would provide evidence that this is not true either] does not justify pushing drugs.

You reply by saying that it is "simply untrue" and ask for evidence. What a mad response.

It is called "burden of evidence" . Look it up.

You then state that violence and prostitution are intrinsic and that prostitutes suffer from "beatings, emotional worthlessness and ill-health". Wow. What a massive sweeping generalisation that is.

Unless backed up by evidence! which he should have to provide. It is called "burden of evidence". the person making the claim hgas to provide evidence.

None of the prostitutes I knew experienced anything like that.

How do you know? And by the way your OPINION isn't evidence!

That's not to say it doesn't happen (I'm sure it does)

Now you are contradicting yourself! Look all swans are white until you see a black one!

but again you only want to focus on the worst case scenarios.

WRONG! Quite clearly above are YOUR words that a claim is made about "prostitutes in general" Clearly that would suggest not just a few worst cases but around at least half or more. I would reckon that is it the vast majority 80 per cent plus but that is my unsupported opinion. The other poster can I am sure supply sources backing that up.
On top of that there re the strawberries and trafffickers.

You simply don't have a realistic understanding of what prostitution is really like. But that's because you're an extremist and extremists believe crazy things.

No it is because he goes by objective research by qualified professionals on prostitutes in preference to a pimps biased opinion about how he thinks they feel.

You then state that you do not believe prostitutes earn an average of €300 an hour. And I agree with you on this - they obviously all don't. But many do. Go take a look at escortireland.com to see the prices.

First of all you are discussing what is ASKED FOR by a commercial concern and not the actually money going to the prostitutes themselves.
http://economics.uchicago.edu/pdf/Prostitution%205.pdf

A look at poage 41 and 42 should make you consider your position and the ones after that show the correlation with other crime. By the way i don't accept the researchers figures here of only about a third going to the pimp. Oh and you might also not that the prostitutes are working in other jobs as well. They maks about $25 an hour and $300 a week! that was in 2004 by the way.

And then you make some weird comment about wanting a report from the Immigrant Council of Ireland. I don't know what you're talking about there.

Maybe you should clarify what you are being asked then. You are the one who claimed to be able to write about prostitution but you seem to be totally unacquainted with research.

At this stage you've painted a pretty good picture of what sort of person you are.

Who is making sweeping generalisations now?

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you mean well, but really, your grasp on the reality of prostitution is very light and you really need to go out into the real world and spend some time with prostitutes to see your mad opinions on the topic are way out of sync with reality.

I do not believe you live have everyday friends who are prostitutes. Other than people who worked in the same building as you i doubt you socialise with them or assist their educational, child care, or civil needs in any way. so please don't lecture others on "living among prostitutes" and you r deep concern for them other than you personal monetary gain from the business/money end of what they do.

I feel sorry for you, genuinely, because I think you are very confused.

Then try to focus your unfounded pity onto actually providing some objective evidence to back up your unsupported opinion would you?

ISAW

AARRRGH wrote: »

And values are subjective.

Only to a moral relativist.

Which is one of my basic points. Just because you think it is wrong doesn't mean everyone else does.

Your moral relativism won't stand up.
Consider this.
I think sex between adults and children is always wrong. apparently you think that because some people may think it is acceptable that that makes it acceptable!
Does it?

So . everyone does not think sex with children is wrong. so what it is STILL WRONG!
Not just because i say it is wrong or because of my personal belief. It is ALWAYS wrong!
Get it?

LOL, come on, you sound like your knowledge of this topic is based on what you saw in a couple of Hollywood movies.

That would be your opinion but the fact are that trafficking of children for sex and other slavery is beginning to outstrip drugs trafficking! FACT! Not Hollywood!

Prostitution is only immoral in your opinion.

I voiced no opinion on the subject.
Child sex is immoral but not because it is just my opinion.
If you agree that sex with children is immoral than what makes it more then your opinion?

The prostitute (and others, e.g. me) do not consider it immoral.

So what? Nor do the children that the adults are having sex with. Nor do thieves stealing your car.

You really like this moral relativism don't you. If you don't subjectively think it is wrong no matter what objective values there are then it is acceptable is it?

Now who is out of touch with reality?

AARRRGH

ISAW: Your moral beliefs only apply to you. It is wrong to project them onto others, assuming everyone else shares or should share your beliefs.

It is unfortunate you do not understand this.

AARRRGH

ISAW wrote: »

First of all you are discussing what is ASKED FOR by a commercial concern and not the actually money going to the prostitutes themselves.
http://economics.uchicago.edu/pdf/Prostitution%205.pdf

A look at poage 41 and 42 should make you consider your position and the ones after that show the correlation with other crime. By the way i don't accept the researchers figures here of only about a third going to the pimp. Oh and you might also not that the prostitutes are working in other jobs as well. They maks about $25 an hour and $300 a week! that was in 2004 by the way.

It is very possible prostitution is f*cked in the US, but we are talking about prostitution in Ireland.

And you incorrectly are assuming all prostitutes have a pimp. I know many prostitutes and am yet to meet one who has or has ever had a pimp. Again, it could be different in the US, but we are talking about Ireland.