Prostitution

16-01-2010 12:23AM

taconnol wrote: »

First S.C.U.M and now Storm Front? Eaves is an organisation that provides shelter for women suffering from domestic violence and victims of trafficking.

If you can't see how warped it is to compare that to Storm Front, I don't know what to say. We've gone from that to an organisation that to a white supremist neo-nazi website?

I wouldn't go so far as to compare them to Storm Front or SCUM simply because I haven't seen enough media attention or reports from them to suggest that they are as hardline as that.

However (yes, there is a however), the language of their site and the report itself is rather suggestive. I took a look at some of their other literature too. They're an organisation which focuses entirely on women (although they will use mens "opinions" to support their views), and have an agenda to promote a certain belief or perception. The degree of that bias is rather evident in the report on male customers attitudes to prostitution.

They don't seem hardline to me, but they're certainly extremely biased, and have an obvious agenda. That sort of attitude screams to me that they would have no hesitation in being selective about the information released, and quite flexible in the editing of "responses". But thats a personal opinion.. no particular evidence to prove it.

16-01-2010 12:27AM

taconnol wrote: »

I was talking about the research, not the article. And I haven't read enough of the research to see if it is biased or not. So I'm not going to say it definitely is biased when I'm not sure. So I did see a need to add it.

The article is based on the research, and doesn't provide any suggestion that they (the journalist/editor) disagree with the apparent findings. Therefore the article and the research are essentially one and the same. The article promotes the same message.

AARRRGH · 16-01-2010 10:58PM

taconnol wrote: »

New research on the reasons men go to prostitutes:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jan/15/why-men-use-prostitutes

Interesting how some men argue that they need access to prostitutes so that they don't rape anyone yet over half of them are in relationships.

Ah come on now, look who did the research:

Melissa Farley, Julie Bindel and Jacqueline M. Golding

If you google them you will see they are very anti-prostitution and are of the "prostitution is sexual assault" mindset, so this was hardly unbiased research and really can't be taken too seriously.

T runner · 17-01-2010 02:19PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't. Just as I don't know that the money I spend on buying cigarettes down the road, doesn't fund it, or the charity I give to beggars on the street...

I have no idea what you mean by any of that.

You seem to be undicating earlier in this thread that you have used prostitutes. If you dont know that the money you are handing over will be used by people who are involved in sex trafficking you are very naive are pretending to be very naive.

It has been well established that many escort agencies (inc. online ones) use trafficked women as prostitutes.

This report from the independent implies that many Irish men who have used online agencies themselves acknowledge that some of the women they have used were probably slaves. Is this the "normal" prostitution you are referring to?

This article should clear it up for you.

Read the lot. ive quoted a message of particular resonance to you.

"To men who use brothels, my message is 'stop it', you are fuelling this trade. To anyone who knows of women in this position, please come forward. We want to help women who are victims of this crime," he said.

Unless you have some evidence which shows a high proportion of income from "normal" prostitution ends up supporting these activities?

Dont worry about my evidence. If you are using prostitutes you need to have evidence that the girl you are using is not there against her will. Do you?

From what I have read about sex trafficking, its aimed at a highly select clientele who know before hand the status of the women in question... The risks involved are quite high considering all you need is one client deciding to inform the authorities, and those in charge will face multiple criminal charges.

And that is exactly why they dont tell the clients that the prostitutes are trafficked. (a) The client wants to think that he is not raping the girl and
(b) there is less chance of the client telling police a girl is trafficked if he doesnt actuallu know a girl is trafficked.

Totally agree. However, I've never liked the way posters seek to automatically link them to mainstream prostitution.

They are not linking it to mainstream prostitution they are linking it to prostitution. Those who think there is a clean "mainstream" prostitution world away from the "dirty" world of prostitution are deluding themselves.

Well, actually the prostitute can be arrested at the moment for the transaction of giving sex for money... TBH, I'm not sure if the customer is charged with anything.

I was stating what should be the case not what is.

17-01-2010 04:35PM

T runner wrote: »

I have no idea what you mean by any of that.

The point being that anything can be used to fund the trafficking of people. Its actually more likely that legal activities like business would be used rather than normalised prostitution.

You seem to be undicating earlier in this thread that you have used prostitutes. If you dont know that the money you are handing over will be used by people who are involved in sex trafficking you are very naive are pretending to be very naive.

Undicating?

Naive? Hardly. But the point remains that you haven't linked the money earned by prostitutes to any form of trafficking or sex slavery. The money I have spent in the past could as easily have been spent on a college education so that the woman could leave the profession....

It has been well established that many escort agencies (inc. online ones) use trafficked women as prostitutes.

Show me some proof... Then we'll talk.

This report from the independent implies that many Irish men who have used online agencies themselves acknowledge that some of the women they have used were probably slaves. Is this the "normal" prostitution you are referring to?

This article should clear it up for you.

Read the lot. ive quoted a message of particular resonance to you.

Did you have a look at the survey or the site its on? The survey was done online which is notorious for invalid results, and easily skewed to favor any degree of mandate/agenda. TBH its a rather subjective survey since there doesn't seem to be any way to verify the validity of the results. Any investigation that had tried to be impartial would proclaim it loudly, but there's none of that here. In fact the website is the height of "empty" and the whois of the domain doesn't reveal anything of the origins.

As for Ruhama read back a few pages and you'll see plenty of discussion about them, their methods, and the rather real agenda they have in this area.

Dont worry about my evidence. If you are using prostitutes you need to have evidence that the girl you are using is not there against her will. Do you?

Don't worry about your evidence? Oh but I do... :rolleyes: I notice you didn't answer the question... back up that statement of yours... Seriously.

Err, why would I need that evidence? Can't i trust my experience of over a decade of availing of these services? Can't I trust my knowledge gained from friends working in the industry, and my own ability to read people? Guess not.

So. How exactly would you gain evidence that the prostitute is not being forced?

And that is exactly why they dont tell the clients that the prostitutes are trafficked. (a) The client wants to think that he is not raping the girl and
(b) there is less chance of the client telling police a girl is trafficked if he doesnt actuallu know a girl is trafficked.

(a) hmm... Did you know that most guys go to prostitutes because they can have sex with someone who is responsive and is capable of going through whatever positions or fantasies they desire? Any forced or trafficked girl is unlikely to provide those kind of services.. And I feel that any guy with a little bit of intelligence will know if the girl is being forced in some way.

(b) Duh! Of course... but there are some rather obvious signs... Drugs, bruises, lack of spirit, resentment, ill health, etc... somewhat hard to miss from someone you're looking to have sex with.

They are not linking it to mainstream prostitution they are linking it to prostitution. Those who think there is a clean "mainstream" prostitution world away from the "dirty" world of prostitution are deluding themselves.

They i.e. You. Do you have any actual knowledge of the area? Somehow I doubt it. I'd suggest getting some knowledge (not just from the internet) rather than suggesting that people who do have some personal knowledge of the area are deluded.

Answer this for me. Do you see any difference between straightforward escorts, and those forced/trafficked?

AARRRGH · 17-01-2010 05:41PM

T runner wrote: »

If you are using prostitutes you need to have evidence that the girl you are using is not there against her will. Do you?

If you are wearing clothes you need to have evidence that the clothes you are wearing were not made using child labour. Do you?

If you are eating meat you need to have evidence that the animals weren't treated badly. Do you?

If you are wearing jewellery you need to have evidence that the materials were ethically sourced. Do you?

...

At least with prostitution you can use your own instincts to sense if the girl was kidnapped and is being forced against her will to have sex with you. That should be fairly obvious, no?

Can you say the same about your clothes, jewellery and food? No.

So stop being hysterical and get real.

I should also point out that "trafficked" actually means "an immigrant working as a prostitute". It doesn't mean kidnapped and forced against her will, which no doubt you secretly wished it meant.

The Corinthian · 17-01-2010 06:31PM

Personally I feel the question of criminal exploitation in prostitution is a bit of a red herring. Criminalize anything and if there is a demand a supply will appear, and as it is already operating outside of the law, criminal exploitation will inevitably follow.

The best examples of this is in gambling (where it is illegal) and in the experience of alcohol prohibition in the US. Where illegal such goods and services become criminalized, violent and open to exploitation. Where not, they become a business.

This is not to say that even if legal prostitution would become a respectable nine-to-five job or that criminal elements would vanish, only that the level of criminality and exploitation would become comparable to other service industries and as such you cannot really cite criminal exploitation as a negative of prostitution, as it is in reality a negative of the legal status we impose upon prostitution.

T runner · 17-01-2010 07:13PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The point being that anything can be used to fund the trafficking of people. Its actually more likely that legal activities like business would be used rather than normalised prostitution.

Undicating?

Naive? Hardly. But the point remains that you haven't linked the money earned by prostitutes to any form of trafficking or sex slavery. The money I have spent in the past could as easily have been spent on a college education so that the woman could leave the profession....

Show me some proof... Then we'll talk.

Did you have a look at the survey or the site its on? The survey was done online which is notorious for invalid results, and easily skewed to favor any degree of mandate/agenda. TBH its a rather subjective survey since there doesn't seem to be any way to verify the validity of the results. Any investigation that had tried to be impartial would proclaim it loudly, but there's none of that here. In fact the website is the height of "empty" and the whois of the domain doesn't reveal anything of the origins.

As for Ruhama read back a few pages and you'll see plenty of discussion about them, their methods, and the rather real agenda they have in this area.

Don't worry about your evidence? Oh but I do... :rolleyes: I notice you didn't answer the question... back up that statement of yours... Seriously.

Err, why would I need that evidence? Can't i trust my experience of over a decade of availing of these services? Can't I trust my knowledge gained from friends working in the industry, and my own ability to read people? Guess not.

So. How exactly would you gain evidence that the prostitute is not being forced?

(a) hmm... Did you know that most guys go to prostitutes because they can have sex with someone who is responsive and is capable of going through whatever positions or fantasies they desire? Any forced or trafficked girl is unlikely to provide those kind of services.. And I feel that any guy with a little bit of intelligence will know if the girl is being forced in some way.

(b) Duh! Of course... but there are some rather obvious signs... Drugs, bruises, lack of spirit, resentment, ill health, etc... somewhat hard to miss from someone you're looking to have sex with.

They i.e. You. Do you have any actual knowledge of the area? Somehow I doubt it. I'd suggest getting some knowledge (not just from the internet) rather than suggesting that people who do have some personal knowledge of the area are deluded.

Answer this for me. Do you see any difference between straightforward escorts, and those forced/trafficked?

The fact that you dont know if the girl you are having sex with is consenting or not says all I need to know about you and your type.
You disgust me. Dont bother replying.

T runner · 17-01-2010 07:18PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

Personally I feel the question of criminal exploitation in prostitution is a bit of a red herring. Criminalize anything and if there is a demand a supply will appear, and as it is already operating outside of the law, criminal exploitation will inevitably follow.

The best examples of this is in gambling (where it is illegal) and in the experience of alcohol prohibition in the US. Where illegal such goods and services become criminalized, violent and open to exploitation. Where not, they become a business.

This is not to say that even if legal prostitution would become a respectable nine-to-five job or that criminal elements would vanish, only that the level of criminality and exploitation would become comparable to other service industries and as such you cannot really cite criminal exploitation as a negative of prostitution, as it is in reality a negative of the legal status we impose upon prostitution.

You can take the Dutch model and legalise the industry.
You can follow Sweden by attacking demand by criminalising paying for sex. The people who are paying for it dont know or care if the girl is a slave, addict or otherwise compromised anyway.

I dont see conservative Ireland engaging the first option. Option 2 might actually work on the type of lilly livered midldle class twats that seem to be the standard escort clients in this country.

AARRRGH · 17-01-2010 07:25PM

T runner wrote: »

The fact that you dont know if the girl you are having sex with is consenting or not says all I need to know about you and your type.
You disgust me. Dont bother replying.

The fact that you dont know if the clothes you are wearing was made by child labour or not says all I need to know about you and your type.
You disgust me. Dont bother replying.

The Corinthian · 17-01-2010 07:42PM

T runner wrote: »

I dont see conservative Ireland engaging the first option.

I didn't see conservative Ireland telling the priests to feck off, only a few years ago, so I wouldn't be so sure.

In fairness, I don't think either option is perfect. Even legalized, prostitution would still have enough of a social stigma attached so as to attract an unsavoury, if legal, industry. Criminalizing the clients may simply result in the industry being driven even further underground, without necessarily affecting demand.

I do think that your assertion that the clients of prostitution are "lilly livered midldle class twats" is a bit silly though. Are the working classes more morally upstanding then, or are their women just bigger slappers?

musicmonky · 17-01-2010 10:35PM

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1243471/Billie-Piper-meets-Brooke-Magnati-real-life-Belle-Jour-Secret-Diary-Of-A-Call-Girl.html

maybe not your typical "working woman".. but Prostitution isnt clear cut.

"They talk about men wanting one thing. It isn't what you think. It's to have someone who says, "Whatever your faults, whatever you do, you're all right."
"

18-01-2010 03:36AM

T runner wrote: »

The fact that you dont know if the girl you are having sex with is consenting or not says all I need to know about you and your type.
You disgust me. Dont bother replying.

Which is a cop out on the fact that you're unwilling to answer the question. Again. And again. And again. Where is your evidence? Nowhere. Where are your answers? Nowhere.

The fact is that you are incapable of actually reading what I posted. I spoke of experience, awareness, etc.. but that doesn't really interest you. Just like another thread we conversed in you are incapable of actually responding to a post, and providing evidence to support your claims.

I hope you understand... You don't disgust me. I hold some sympathy for you. Because you are unable to see life as being flexible. Unable to understand the true depth of life. That everything is not a black and white situation. Frankly, I daresay you'll be a rather unhappy person in life because you judge everyone and everything in rather drastic colors. Unfortunately you're the sort of person who will call for another witch hunt simply because you believe you're right, and nobody is able to convince you otherwise (because you're incapable of listening).

On the off chance the mods think I've gone overboard... I think its rather tame compared with "you disgust me"...

T Runner... Get a clue about the subject... seriously.

T runner · 18-01-2010 12:21PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

The fact that you dont know if the clothes you are wearing was made by child labour or not says all I need to know about you and your type.
You disgust me. Dont bother replying.

How do you know what brands of clothes I buy?

T runner · 18-01-2010 12:40PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

I didn't see conservative Ireland telling the priests to feck off, only a few years ago, so I wouldn't be so sure.

In fairness, I don't think either option is perfect. Even legalized, prostitution would still have enough of a social stigma attached so as to attract an unsavoury, if legal, industry. Criminalizing the clients may simply result in the industry being driven even further underground, without necessarily affecting demand.

I do think that your assertion that the clients of prostitution are "lilly livered midldle class twats" is a bit silly though. Are the working classes more morally upstanding then, or are their women just bigger slappers?

The majority of clients are from the huge Irish middle class. You may have missed my point here I think. Working class people are not more upstanding--but the middle class may be more frightened of the public exposure associated with a criminal prosection. Im not suggesting that working class people are more used to it just that the middle class would see themselves as having a lot to lose.

Some reports Ive read seem to indicate that clients might be more concerned about the prospect of a criminal proceeding rather than the possibility that the person they are having sex with might be a sex slave.

Any reduction should ensure at least a proportionate reduction in sex trafficking.

The alternative of legalisation and regulation might have a greater affect on cleaning up the nastier elements and would be my choice I just think the former may be more likely in the Irish context.

The Corinthian · 18-01-2010 12:50PM

T runner wrote: »

The majority of clients are from the huge Irish middle class.

Interesting. Do you have data to back this up?

Any reduction should ensure at least a proportionate reduction in sex trafficking.

Are there any studies that point towards proportionate reduction in demand when clients are targeted? Also, proportionate is a very vague term - it can mean anything between 99.99% and 0.01%, making such measures meaningless in any practical terms.

AARRRGH · 18-01-2010 02:13PM

T runner wrote: »

Any reduction should ensure at least a proportionate reduction in sex trafficking.

Do you know what sex trafficking is according to anti-prostitution organisations like Ruhama?

Do you know what the statistics for sex trafficking are in Ireland?

If you could accurately answer both of these questions, your opinion on prostitution would change.

T runner · 18-01-2010 03:15PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

Interesting. Do you have data to back this up?

There are not many reports in an Irish context. This one gives examples referneces British and Swedish reports. No reason to believe why Ireland is any different. (Attached)

In a British Home Office Study on street prostitution in 2004, figures, supplied by police, for men soliciting women, show a median age of 35; most (67%) in fulltime employment; most white European; nearly half married; nearly half are owner occupiers and most have no previous charges. 1 A Swedish National Institute of Public Health study found that one man in eight in Sweden buys sex at least once in his life. They come from a cross section of social classes, have money, stability, education and power – in contrast to the women they buy.

Are there any studies that point towards proportionate reduction in demand when clients are targeted?

The only country that currently criminalises demands is Sweden.

Jonas Trolle a police officer advocating Swedens prostitution Laws seems to be of the opinion that reducing one directly affects the others.

"Start with the demand. No demand, no trafficking. No demand, no prostitution," he said.

LINK

He also maintains

there was no evidence to suggest Sweden’s approach had forced the country’s sex industry underground or had led to an increase in the incidence of rape.

LINK

Wahlberg concedes that accurate statistics are hard to obtain, but estimates the number of prostitutes in Sweden dropped 40% from 2,500 in 1998 to 1,500 in 2003.

She says police know from eavesdropping on human trafficking rings that Sweden is considered bad business because of its tough stance.

"They are calculating profits, costs and marketing and the risk of getting caught," Wahlberg said. "We're trying to create a bad market for these activities."

LINK

Also, proportionate is a very vague term - it can mean anything between 99.99% and 0.01%, making such measures meaningless in any practical terms.

Proportional always means directly proportional unless otherwise stated. (like average is "mean")
I said "at least as proportional", implying directly or greater.

Around the level of demand where is is no longer worthwhile for a trafficker to operate in a country the reduction in sex traffic will increase until it is almost extinct.

(FYI the range of possible proportions like many other things is a percentage between 0 and infinity). This does not make it meaningless in any practical way.

T runner · 18-01-2010 03:22PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

Do you know what sex trafficking is according to anti-prostitution organisations like Ruhama?

Do you know what the statistics for sex trafficking are in Ireland?

If you could accurately answer both of these questions, your opinion on prostitution would change.

In my last post I have quoted a Swedish Police officer who correlates the level of demand for prostitution directly with the level of sex trafficking. He would know better than you or me I think.

According to a motion in the Dail last year FG claimed that gardai were aware of 67 girls who were trafficked here last year.

The Corinthian · 18-01-2010 03:57PM

T runner wrote: »

There are not many reports in an Irish context. This one gives examples referneces British and Swedish reports. No reason to believe why Ireland is any different. (Attached)

This appears to specifically state that the clients of prostitutes "come from a cross section of social classes" in contradiction of your claim that they are middle class.

Proportional always means directly proportional unless otherwise stated. (like average is "mean")

I assumed you meant criminalization, and enforcement more correctly, is directly proportional (decrease in demand) or simply indirectly proportional to demand.

I said "at least as proportional", implying directly or greater.

Well no, that's not what proportional actually means. Proportionality does not automatically imply a one-to-one relationship.

Also when you say "directly or greater" I assume you mean "equal or greater", otherwise you are confusing terms.

Around the level of demand where is is no longer worthwhile for a trafficker to operate in a country the reduction in sex traffic will increase until it is almost extinct.

I understand that this would be the theory.

(FYI the range of possible proportions like many other things is a percentage between 0 and infinity). This does not make it meaningless in any practical way.

Well it can. For example, an increase in government spending to stimulate the economy does not mean that the economy will automatically grow by the same, or greater, amount. This is particularly true as you continue increasing expenditure you will face diminishing returns on your investment.

Criminalization of course is pointless without enforcement and enforcement requires resources. If the rate of returns on such a policy are low (and likely to diminish when increased) then it can quickly become meaningless in any practical way - hypothetically, spending an extra 10 million Euro per year to decrease the prostitution trade by half a million Euro per year just makes bad fiscal sense.

Nonetheless, do you have figures relating to this as requested, especially as you have appear to have claimed that the rate would be "equal or greater" - i.e. spending an extra 10 million Euro per year in enforcement would decrease the prostitution trade by at least 10 million per year.

18-01-2010 05:51PM

T runner wrote: »

There are not many reports in an Irish context. This one gives examples referneces British and Swedish reports. No reason to believe why Ireland is any different.

Now I don't really expect you to answer me, since you obviously love ignoring my posts...

But considering the differences in religion, culture, politics, immigration etc in all three countries (UK, Sweden, and Ireland) how could you assume that they would be the same? Ireland has a rather unique history and culture which pushes itself onto every segment of our society in some shape or another. Which in turn makes the situation of prostitution and trafficking rather different than other countries. The UK has a long history with both prostitution and trafficking... Sweden too considering they were both colonial powers in their day. So, I'm wondering how Ireland could be grouped in with them since Ireland has only started in the last three decades to relax the rather strict cultural boundaries which held so many areas in check.

Out of curiosity, T Runner, why do you avoid answering my responses to your posts? And leave out the disgust "thingy" while you're at it.

T runner · 18-01-2010 05:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Now I don't really expect you to answer me, since you obviously love ignoring my posts...

But considering the differences in religion, culture, politics, immigration etc in all three countries (UK, Sweden, and Ireland) how could you assume that they would be the same? Ireland has a rather unique history and culture which pushes itself onto every segment of our society in some shape or another. Which in turn makes the situation of prostitution and trafficking rather different than other countries. The UK has a long history with both prostitution and trafficking... Sweden too considering they were both colonial powers in their day. So, I'm wondering how Ireland could be grouped in with them since Ireland has only started in the last three decades to relax the rather strict cultural boundaries which held so many areas in check.

Out of curiosity, T Runner, why do you avoid answering my responses to your posts? And leave out the disgust "thingy" while you're at it.

The one question I want you to answer which you have avoided is this: How do you know the person you are having sex with is not there agianst her will?

18-01-2010 06:07PM

T runner wrote: »

The one question I want you to answer which you have avoided is this: How do you know the person you are having sex with is not there agianst her will?

Avoided? Actually I answered the question... Although maybe I confused you with the question marks.

Let me remind you what I said since you obviously can't be bothered to read back a bit:

"Err, why would I need that evidence? Can't i trust my experience of over a decade of availing of these services? Can't I trust my knowledge gained from friends working in the industry, and my own ability to read people? Guess not.

So. How exactly would you gain evidence that the prostitute is not being forced?"

The point is that I base it on my experience of the industry, having had friends who worked in the industry, and my own ability to read people.

However.. This is probably not enough for you, which is why I asked you pretty much the same question.... How would you gain this evidence?

AARRRGH · 18-01-2010 06:08PM

T runner wrote: »

In my last post I have quoted a Swedish Police officer who correlates the level of demand for prostitution directly with the level of sex trafficking. He would know better than you or me I think.

Nice that you're using Sweden as an example, possibly the most anti-prostitution country in the western world, e.g. men who have sex with prostitutes are imprisoned for sexual assault.

Sure you may as well quote the Saudi police next.

T runner wrote: »

According to a motion in the Dail last year FG claimed that gardai were aware of 67 girls who were trafficked here last year.

That was based on Ruhamas definition of trafficking.

In other words, Gardai were aware of 67 prostitutes who weren't from Ireland.

Seriously, you are misunderstanding what trafficking is. You think it means "kidnapped and forced to have sex" when in fact it means a foreign prostitute.

T runner · 18-01-2010 06:28PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

This appears to specifically state that the clients of prostitutes "come from a cross section of social classes" in contradiction of your claim that they are middle class.

Thats a strawman. I claimed that the majority are from the middle class.

Well no, that's not what proportional actually means. Proportionality does not automatically imply a one-to-one relationship.

Yes it does, When one says Catholic, one implies Roman Catholic. When one says average one implies mean and when one says proportionate, one implies directly proportionate.

Also when you say "directly or greater" I assume you mean "equal or greater", otherwise you are confusing terms.

You dont understand.

Lets assume the proportion of prostitutes that are traffciked is 25% for arguments sake.

If the number of prostitutes falls by 40% (as in Sweden) then the amount of people who are trafficked should fall by 40% (if it is in direct proportion.) The proportion of this fall may be greater of-course i.e. If the first prostitutes to go are trafficked. Criminals start to move trafficked girls to countries with more demand.

That is what I meant.

I saw a figure showing the fall in trafficked women in Sweden (comparing it also to neighbouring Finland) which I will pass on when I find it again.

It is worth noting that 80% of irish business is done via the internet. This is in line with
the legal situation here which allows private transactions for sex but nor kerb crawling etc. This could be an inclination that the Irish client does not want to be involved in criminality (where he might get caught at any event) and criminalising the transaction might have a significant effect here.

T runner · 18-01-2010 06:33PM

AARRRGH wrote: »

Nice that you're using Sweden as an example, possibly the most anti-prostitution country in the western world, e.g. men who have sex with prostitutes are imprisoned for sexual assault.

Sure you may as well quote the Saudi police next.

Thats not true.

Under the Swedish law, introduced in 1999, a man caught buying sex will be hit with a fine based on their income, with average penalties ranging from 1,500 euro to 7,000 euro.

That was based on Ruhamas definition of trafficking.

In other words, Gardai were aware of 67 prostitutes who weren't from Ireland.

Again. Not true:

It is thought there are 1,000 women involved in prostitution in Ireland at any one time, with 800 being advertised on the internet representing more than 50 nationalities. It is estimated that around 3% are Irish, while a massive 97% are migrant women.

SOURCES

T runner · 18-01-2010 06:46PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Avoided? Actually I answered the question... Although maybe I confused you with the question marks.

Let me remind you what I said since you obviously can't be bothered to read back a bit:

"Err, why would I need that evidence? Can't i trust my experience of over a decade of availing of these services? Can't I trust my knowledge gained from friends working in the industry, and my own ability to read people? Guess not.

So. How exactly would you gain evidence that the prostitute is not being forced?"

The point is that I base it on my experience of the industry, having had friends who worked in the industry, and my own ability to read people.

However.. This is probably not enough for you, which is why I asked you pretty much the same question.... How would you gain this evidence?

It is not good enough for me. The girls are told that if they tell anyone they are trafficked that they will be beaten or worse.

If you can use your experience as you claim then you must have turned down girls because you thought they were trafficked. Have you? If any of the other girls in a pimps/bosses employment is trafficked you'd have to turn her down too. Do you check all the girls and read them?Also if the boss/pimp had trafficked girls in the past and was likely too again youd have to turn them down. How do you investigate this.

Now tell me this what ability to read people is going to tell you that your money is going to be passed to someone up the line who trafficks women?

You dont know because you cant and yet you use them anyway. This is human slavery were talking here you have no excuse.

The Corinthian · 18-01-2010 06:51PM

T runner wrote: »

Thats a strawman. I claimed that the majority are from the middle class.

Where did that document say that the majority are from the middle class?

Yes it does, When one says Catholic, one implies Roman Catholic. When one says average one implies mean and when one says proportionate, one implies directly proportionate.

Not what I said though. I said that "proportionality does not automatically imply a one-to-one relationship".

You dont understand.

Lets assume the proportion of prostitutes that are traffciked is 25% for arguments sake.

If the number of prostitutes falls by 40% (as in Sweden) then the amount of people who are trafficked should fall by 40% (if it is in direct proportion.) The proportion of this fall may be greater of-course i.e. If the first prostitutes to go are trafficked. Criminals start to move trafficked girls to countries with more demand.

That is what I meant.

I understood what you meant, I just disputed the effectiveness of your approach. Even if we accepted that if the number of prostitutes falls by 40% then the amount of people who are trafficked should fall by 40%, you are not proposing this. You are proposing something more complex, whereby criminalizing clients would reduce demand and thus, in turn, reduce supply - and that in turn trafficking.

I asked for evidence of such a proportional effects.

I saw a figure showing the fall in trafficked women in Sweden (comparing it also to neighbouring Finland) which I will pass on when I find it again.

Please do.

It is worth noting that 80% of irish business is done via the internet.

Interesting. Where did you get your data?

18-01-2010 07:07PM

T runner wrote: »

It is not good enough for me. The girls are told that if they tell anyone they are trafficked that they will be beaten or worse.

Seriously. Can't you answer any questions put to you? I have answered everything you have asked me...

If you can use your experience as you claim then you must have turned down girls because you thought they were trafficked. Have you? If any of the other girls in a pimps/bosses employment is trafficked you'd have to turn her down too. Do you check all the girls and read them?Also if the boss/pimp had trafficked girls in the past and was likely too again youd have to turn them down. How do you investigate this.

I have actually turned away women for many reasons in the past. Most cases, were due to general ill health, signs of drug abuse, and bruises around the arms/legs.

And you're showing an amazing amount of ignorance here... Outside of escort agencies (which are notoriously unreliable and expensive), most customers go directly to the escort through various contacts. Ireland does not have the history with pimps and such, like the continent. In fact, I have never met a pimp while in Ireland. France has a much larger presence in that area.

Now tell me this what ability to read people is going to tell you that your money is going to be passed to someone up the line who trafficks women?

**Notice for you**

Nope. I can't see any reason to answer any more of your questions, simply because you're incapable of answering questions put to you. Even when they're highlighted in bold, you avoid them, and come back with more questions. Show some respect. Start answering the questions put to you, when others have been so nice as to respond to your own questions.

You dont know because you cant and yet you use them anyway. This is human slavery were talking here you have no excuse.

Don't throw your own ignorance on the subject on to me. You're getting confused again. This topic is about prostitution. Trafficking was introduced, as was "forced sex"... Stop lumping them all together.

T runner · 18-01-2010 07:16PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Seriously. Can't you answer any questions put to you? I have answered everything you have asked me...

I have actually turned away women for many reasons in the past. Most cases, were due to general ill health, signs of drug abuse, and bruises around the arms/legs.

And you're showing an amazing amount of ignorance here... Outside of escort agencies (which are notoriously unreliable and expensive), most customers go directly to the escort through various contacts. Ireland does not have the history with pimps and such, like the continent. In fact, I have never met a pimp while in Ireland. France has a much larger presence in that area.

**Notice for you**

Nope. I can't see any reason to answer any more of your questions, simply because you're incapable of answering questions put to you. Even when they're highlighted in bold, you avoid them, and come back with more questions. Show some respect. Start answering the questions put to you, when others have been so nice as to respond to your own questions.

Don't throw your own ignorance on the subject on to me. You're getting confused again. This topic is about prostitution. Trafficking was introduced, as was "forced sex"... Stop lumping them all together.

Pimp/boss/trafficker whatever.

You still havent answered the only question I have asked.

You cant tell if the money you are handing over will be used for trafficking or contribute to other forms of human misery. You clearly dont care.

Prostitution

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