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Government introduces Postcodes in Ireland..?

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Comments

  • #362
    slimjimmc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,787 ✭✭✭slimjimmc


    garydubh wrote: »
    They need it to provide the same service at the same cost to all potential clients in all areas. I guess these companies know best what they need to grow their capability in Ireland and operate efficiently.
    I wouldn't expect a courier in Donegal to charge customers in Cork and Derry the same price. I wouldn't expect his competitor down the road from him to do so either. There are many other factors which affect cost to a much greater degree than going to the wrong house in the same townland.
    garydubh wrote: »
    Discussing the difference between the words
    "Want" and "Need" is really not for this thread. I can only suggest that they would not be asking for a postcode if they did not feel they needed it!
    Ah but it's not as irrelevant to this thread as you suggest. The difference does have a bearing on the discussion on whether Ireland should or shoud not use codes. A 'need' advocates much more importance than a 'want' and vice-versa.
    garydubh wrote: »
    If you drive as part of your job in Ireland you would appreciate the requirement. With respect to "Donkeys Years" - even the donkeys nowadays may now not be local or even Irish with associated local knowledge!

    If they can read an address, directions, road signs (if any), know their right from their left and can follow a map then they don't really need local knowledge. They might have to stop every now and then to check their notes (inconvenient and costs a few mins delay) but I'm sure if you give anyone sufficient directions they'll be able to find your house as effectively as any code.
    garydubh wrote: »
    Finding your code is not difficult - free for anyone using the web - or someone else's if don't have access and with over 45% web access and growing - everyone knows "a man who does"! (someone who has web access that is)

    A valid point. There are also people who are of a different generation who even struggle with phone numbers, however, having said that it should be possible for business to check up a customers code on the web themselves. If people continue doing this then it's possible to arrive at a situation where a code is only relevant to businesses and not to people as a whole.

    garydubh wrote: »
    There are several issues raised here:

    1. Approximately 1 million SatNav's will be in use in Ireland by the end of 2010. (In the UK there are already over 14 million SatNav users) By the end of 2012, GPS will be available widely in all mobile phones as standard. Mobile phones already have over 100% penetration in Ireland.

    2. Knowing the coordinates or location of a breakdown or accident is a seperate matter. Helped of course if you have a GPS or SatNav.
    I disagree, without an electronic device it is highly unlikley an emergency caller will know a location code; in this case a code is defunct. The benefit comes if the depatch base provides co-ords to the emergency vehicle but a post code or PONC would have no more advantage than existing geo co-ords.
    garydubh wrote: »
    However, there is seperate EU legislation which Ireland has signed up to but not yet implemented requiring vehicles to have an emergency location transponder (GPS & GSM/GPRS) - capable of being both automatically and manually activated in the case of an accident. However, this is a different matter entirely!

    This is interesting especially if the human doesn't need to do anything other than push a button. Can you point me to a source for more info, a few Google searches didn't show anything. Would it be a requirement to retrofit such a system to older vehicles?

    I would suspect that any transponder system would use an internationally standard code, rather than a national one. The only code that comes to mind are geo co-ords most likely provided by an open service such as Galileo.

    Edit: just saw Delphic's post, Thanks. Will look up EU site for eCall but feel free to post other info.


  • #363
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    slimjimmc wrote: »
    If they can read an address, directions, road signs (if any), know their right from their left and can follow a map then they don't really need local knowledge. They might have to stop every now and then to check their notes (inconvenient and costs a few mins delay) but I'm sure if you give anyone sufficient directions they'll be able to find your house as effectively as any code.

    slimjimmc: I respect that this is your opinion - but your argument does not hold water and is not that which those who drive for a living in Ireland would make. I would also imagine that there would not be too many who would agree with you on the matter of using road signs. I am also interested that you would be in essence saying that those in the Logistics industry are wrong when they say that a PostCode is a key element of any sustainable transport in Ireland. By the same token, and by implication, you are also saying that the Emergency services are also wrong when they say that they also need a PostCode and that AED & 1st responder groups who are voluntarily trying to introduce codes around the country for their purposes are just wasting their time!
    slimjimmc wrote: »
    I disagree, without an electronic device it is highly unlikley an emergency caller will know a location code; in this case a code is defunct. The benefit comes if the depatch base provides co-ords to the emergency vehicle but a post code or PONC would have no more advantage than existing geo co-ords.

    This is a red herring - The argument for postcodes is not related to dynamic positioning -Nowhere on here or eleswhere has anyone made an argument for those involved in accident along a road being able to find a postcode. It would be certainly desirable and can be facilitated by technology but it is not part of the main justifications for a PostCode in Ireland. The main argument promoted by the Emergency Services themselves is for PostCodes of properties so that they can react more quickly and more confidently as our addressing system on its own does not fully satisfy their needs.

    As you have raised the issue of accidents on roads I suggested that technology was widely available to support PostCodes (Phones/SatNav's) and purely for information I mentioned the EU proposed emergency transponder. Furthermore, as you may also be interested that in the USA, mobile networks must now be able to support Lat/long coordinates coming from a GPS on a mobile phone when a 911 call is made. There are proposals to support the same facility in Europe. However in all these cases Lat/long coordinates are what are supported electronically and therefore this is not in any way relevant to a case for PostCodes.
    slimjimmc wrote: »
    I would suspect that any transponder system would use an internationally standard code, rather than a national one. The only code that comes to mind are geo co-ords most likely provided by an open service such as Galileo.

    Ok so lets not get confused totally here..

    1. Any position transmitted electronically over the airwaves or along a cable uses Latitude and Longitude which is the existing international standard. There is no need to change this in any way and this has nothing to do with the case for PostCodes. The requirement for PostCodes is for when an address or destination is to be communicated by normal means.

    2. Galileo is just another GPS service and will eventaully be a constituent of GNSS related services - it is an EU and ESA proposed satellite postioning service which is now well behind on delivery and most likely will not see IOC before 2014 - again - this has nothing to do with the case for PostCodes.

    Summarising Then:
    Your argument is that PostCodes are not Required in Ireland and not a requirement for the logistics sector no matter what the logistics people say themselves. You have used your own opinion to support this argument and cited that road signs, paper maps and local knowledge is all that is required!

    Obviously I would disagree with your opinion on this and have used the arguments of the people involved in the logistics industries to support the case for PostCodes.


  • #364
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    eCall the system that cannot be implemented due to lack of State GPS facilities

    This comment was incorrcetly made in an earlier post. It is important that it is pointed out that no "State GPS Facilities" are required by any country in order to use GPS. It is a global system which operates independent of any local infrastructure or services.


  • #365
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Delphic wrote: »
    The black box for cars has been mentioned recently in the context of eCall the system that cannot be implemented due to lack of State GPS facilities - an MEP was giving out about it. (Irish Times article in the last week)
    Link, please. I completely fail to see what an proposed emergency system that uses GPS and GPRS has to do with post codes, or endeed what a "State GPS facility" is.


  • #366
    Delphic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Delphic


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Link, please. I completely fail to see what an proposed emergency system that uses GPS and GPRS has to do with post codes, or endeed what a "State GPS facility" is.

    I think the point that Garydubh has been repeatedly hammering home is that postcode is a misnomer - it's about creating a precise location code that is more fit for purpose for 21st Century society.

    This is the link - and here's extract from the Irish Times article on 14 Jan '09:
    "THE GOVERNMENT is “stalling” on the introduction of a global satellite positioning system (GPS), leading to unnecessary fatalities and injuries on Irish roads, the European Commission has been told. The eCall system uses GPS to identify and locate vehicles in the aftermath of a crash.

    Irish MEP Jim Higgins has told the Commission that Ireland – along with other countries which are not making progress – should be compelled to introduce the system.

    The system links GPS technology to the 112 or 999 phone numbers, meaning that, even if a driver is unconscious, the vehicle will automatically ring the emergency services and notify them of its location."
    www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2009/0114/1231738221637.html

    I was thinking that if the black box in a car transmitted the long/lat of a location, this might also be usefully transmitted verbally to say police, or other services, or even family members, as an easy code like PON codes or Ticodes. There's a number of companies looking at developing these black boxes and have been lobbying national and EU politicians/policymakers - I met the CEO of one of these companies about 18 months ago who gave me the details on the system, how it would operate and how it could link to a number of services/companies - from emergency to insurance companies.


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  • #367
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Delphic wrote: »
    I think the point that Garydubh has been repeatedly hammering home is that postcode is a misnomer - it's about creating a precise location code that is more fit for purpose for 21st Century society.
    I agree with him, and share his frustration that the government has been dragging its feet over the introduction of such a code, largely down to the objections of one vested interest (An Post).
    This is the link - and here's extract from the Irish Times article on 14 Jan '09:
    "THE GOVERNMENT is “stalling” on the introduction of a global satellite positioning system (GPS), leading to unnecessary fatalities and injuries on Irish roads, the European Commission has been told. The eCall system uses GPS to identify and locate vehicles in the aftermath of a crash.
    Completely misleading headline. The GPS is in place, and has been for years. It's the implementation of the eCall system itself, or more specifically its integration with emergency service systems, that the government is stalling on.
    I was thinking that if the black box in a car transmitted the long/lat of a location, this might also be usefully transmitted verbally to say police, or other services, or even family members, as an easy code like PON codes or Ticodes. There's a number of companies looking at developing these black boxes and have been lobbying national and EU politicians/policymakers - I met the CEO of one of these companies about 18 months ago who gave me the details on the system, how it would operate and how it could link to a number of services/companies - from emergency to insurance companies.
    I can see a use for such a function, but its absence is hardly a compelling reason to delay the introduction of such a critically important life-saving system.


  • #368
    Delphic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Delphic


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I agree with him, and share his frustration that the government has been dragging its feet over the introduction of such a code, largely down to the objections of one vested interest (An Post).

    Don't quite agree with that. The govt was being persuaded by an Post to implement a more archaic postcode, - if one was to be implemented at all - and thankfully, it didn't. It has been persuaded to look at the use of a geo-coordinate code instead. Becasue of the fact that it is much more specific and links directly to an individual building, presents a number of problems that a more general area code might not. I'd say the jury is still out on which type they'll use.

    "Completely misleading headline. The GPS is in place, and has been for years. It's the implementation of the eCall system itself, or more specifically its integration with emergency service systems, that the government is stalling on."

    If you want to fight with a headline in the Irish Times, that's fine by me. You won't be the last. :) I agree that implementation is the key word. You wouldn't believe how old the systems for communications are amongst emergency services of fire, ambulance and police. Bringing in a GPS and internet-linked system would revolutionise the comms systems. The intro of a GPS related code would, I suspect, cause consternation and celebration in equal measure.

    "I can see a use for such a function, but its absence is hardly a compelling reason to delay the introduction of such a critically important life-saving system."

    You're possibly right. I wasn't arguing that it was. As I said in my original
    post - "This (eCall system) could be linked into a geo-ordinate code if one was being used." It's an add-on facility, a nice to have, not an absolute necessity.


  • #369
    luckat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,366 ✭✭✭luckat


    slimjimmc wrote: »
    If they can read an address, directions, road signs (if any), know their right from their left and can follow a map then they don't really need local knowledge. They might have to stop every now and then to check their notes (inconvenient and costs a few mins delay) but I'm sure if you give anyone sufficient directions they'll be able to find your house as effectively as any code.

    Up to a point. My satnav tried to bring me to a Kinvara in Connemara when I asked it to bring me to Kinvara, Co Galway (on the Galway-Clare border). Post codes would make things a lot easier.

    They would also - not that this is necessarily a good thing in the current climate of job losses - allow more automation.


  • #370
    byrnefm
    Registered Users Posts: 887 ✭✭✭byrnefm


    I found the following article today when googling to see if there was any update on Ireland perhaps getting postcodes some day:

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE58K16S20090921

    Is this true or just more speculation? I don't know where Reuters heard that Ireland would get postcodes "in about a year" (from last September).


  • #371
    Sulmac
    Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭Sulmac


    byrnefm wrote: »
    I found the following article today when googling to see if there was any update on Ireland perhaps getting postcodes some day:

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE58K16S20090921

    Is this true or just more speculation? I don't know where Reuters heard that Ireland would get postcodes "in about a year" (from last September).

    Well, there was an article in the latest Sunday Tribune about this:
    Ryan finalises plans for new postcode system

    Jennifer Bray

    Residents in Dublin's coveted D4 addresses have only two years left until their exclusive postcode is renamed by the Department of Communications, as plans for the new postcode system are finalised byMinister Eamon Ryan.

    The department plans to issue tenders for the system by Easter, but a delay has meant the code will not be in place until the end of 2011, and not early next year as planned.

    Under the new coding system, areas such as Dublin 4 and Dublin 6 will be renamed under a new six-digit system, such as D04123 and D06123.

    However Labour's spokeswoman for Communications, Energy and Natural Re sources, Liz McManus, said the latest estimates for the new system show it will cost a minimum of €40m.

    McManus has also said businesses will suffer further financial hardships as they will be forced to change their address records and data.

    "This is not the time to be implementing this system, and it appears to be nothing more than a vanity project for the minister."

    January 3, 2010


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  • #372
    lol_leo
    Registered Users Posts: 60 ✭✭lol_leo


    I hope its true.

    Not sure what the estimate of 40m is about? Labour and their usual negativity...


  • #373
    Spiritoftheseventies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    Hilarious discussion on Last Word. you will get it on the podcast tomorrow. Ciaran Cuffe green party at one stage mentioned that even Santy had a post code. Gas stuff.


  • #374
    Colonel Sanders
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,669 ✭✭✭Colonel Sanders


    bayviewclose wrote: »
    Hilarious discussion on Last Word. you will get it on the podcast tomorrow. Ciaran Cuffe green party at one stage mentioned that even Santy had a post code. Gas stuff.

    I heard this. His whole justification for the introduction seemed to be that other countries have them


  • #375
    Spiritoftheseventies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    Colonel Sanders wrote: »
    I heard this. His whole justification for the introduction seemed to be that other countries have them
    That and his election stuff not reaching his constituents. See that drew a skeptical sigh from Liz McManus.


  • #376
    goudystout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭goudystout


    bayviewclose wrote: »
    Hilarious discussion on Last Word. you will get it on the podcast tomorrow. Ciaran Cuffe green party at one stage mentioned that even Santy had a post code. Gas stuff.

    But Santy's codes take him to exactly the right house, the PostCode that they are proposing for Ireland will take you to the middle of up to 50 houses and you'll have to take pot luck after that.

    If it is to be any better, they would have to add road names and house numbers in country areas and not many are going to agree to that....

    Its going to be a NO GO Postcode even Santy will not be able to use


  • #377
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Colonel Sanders wrote: »
    I heard this. His whole justification for the introduction seemed to be that other countries have them

    Sounds like the same argument that brought us our inexpensive and thoroughly worthwhile eVoting system.....

    ....oh, hang on......


  • #378
    ninty9er
    Registered Users Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Sounds like the same argument that brought us our inexpensive and thoroughly worthwhile eVoting system.....

    ....oh, hang on......
    I agree on this one. If I'm getting something by post I can handle a 2-3 day delivery time, it's not as if this can be improved upon unless postmen are going to start deliveries as soon as they empty postboxes.


  • #379
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    ninty9er wrote: »
    I agree on this one. If I'm getting something by post I can handle a 2-3 day delivery time, it's not as if this can be improved upon unless postmen are going to start deliveries as soon as they empty postboxes.
    Ah but you're forgetting that it's more than just your local postie who'll benefit from this. Other delivery drivers, taxis, and so forth.

    There are also lots of issues in rural areas where there are 3 or 4 "Paddy Wallace"s in an area and the post is simply addressed to "Paddy Wallace, Gort, Co. Wexford" in the expectation that the right guy will get it.
    The local postie knows from experience who you are and where you live, but his replacement has no idea that they mean Paddy Wallace Snr from the east of the valley instead of Paddy Wallace who lives beside the shop.

    Or duplicate town names. A well-known poster here encountered that issue when he received a phone call about a package he was expecting, asking where he was to collect it, only to find out that the delivery driver was in a town 100 miles away which just happened to have the same name as the town he was in.

    And the king of them all: Sat Nav. So instead of having to give your address of "Rosehall", Ballinashee, Gort, Co. Wexford, "Now, when you get into Gort, take a right, drive 3 miles. If you hit a house with blue stone walls, you've gone too far....".
    Instead all you do is give your postcode of WX15023 and the Sat Nav takes whoever within 20m (or whatever) of your house.

    €40m is pittance for a system that's well overdue. Though I'm disappointed that they're not using a GPS-coordinates algorithm system that can give you a postcode which maps to within 2m of your house. That would have more expense though I suppose because then the postman needs a handheld to find the exact houses, as opposed to a postcode which takes him to the right street. It can always be added on later - dotted notation onto the end of the code. So WX15023.13, for example.


  • #380
    Alcatel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Alcatel


    There's more to a postcode than your parcel finding the right door.

    In Ireland finding and preventing fruad, for example credit card fraud in card not present transactions (like internet shopping), is far more of a guessing game without a postal code system.

    Quantification, of anything from area to performance, is not something we're very strong with in Ireland. That starts in the 'ah shure, why do we need it?' discussion. All I know is, having worked abroad, countries that do measure everything - from postcodes to services - and puts it all together tend to be better organised and run than Ireland. As an observation in general, pertaining to this specific discussion.


  • #381
    lol_leo
    Registered Users Posts: 60 ✭✭lol_leo


    I really cant see why people would object to a postcode system. I can only imagine that those that object have not lived outside the country and know no better. I suppose the same people see no value in good public transport, health care etc... and would just prefer a few % knocked of their tax bill.


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  • #382
    Alcatel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Alcatel


    lol_leo wrote: »
    I really cant see why people would object to a postcode system. I can only imagine that those that object have not lived outside the country and know no better. I suppose the same people see no value in good public transport, health care etc... and would just prefer a few % knocked of their tax bill.
    It'd cost 40m by the sounds of it. Hardly bank breaking.


  • #383
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    seamus wrote: »
    €40m is pittance for a system that's well overdue. Though I'm disappointed that they're not using a GPS-coordinates algorithm system that can give you a postcode which maps to within 2m of your house.
    Have details been published of the proposed system, and its resolution/accuracy?


  • #384
    vwphotography
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6 ✭vwphotography


    ive read most of the above - other than to avoid junk mail why do you want a post code. system seems to work fine. maybe im just thick.


  • #385
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Have details been published of the proposed system, and its resolution/accuracy?
    No, I'm actually just guessing based on what I've been reading. I'd be surprised though if they implemented something which brought you to the kerb of each house. In Ireland though that's the ideal because we have so much housing which isn't exactly part of any distinct area.


  • #386
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    vwphotography wrote: »
    ive read most of the above - other than to avoid junk mail why do you want a post code. system seems to work fine. maybe im just thick.
    Or maybe you've never been lying on the floor, clutching your chest in agony while someone tries to explain to the ambulance crew where your rural house is.
    seamus wrote: »
    No, I'm actually just guessing based on what I've been reading. I'd be surprised though if they implemented something which brought you to the kerb of each house. In Ireland though that's the ideal because we have so much housing which isn't exactly part of any distinct area.
    I'd be surprised about that too, because in the long run it would be the most useful and cost-effective approach. Which means it ain't gonna happen.


  • #387
    vwphotography
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6 ✭vwphotography


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Or maybe you've never been lying on the floor, clutching your chest in agony while someone tries to explain to the ambulance crew where your rural house is.

    I'd be surprised about that too, because in the long run it would be the most useful and cost-effective approach. Which means it ain't gonna happen.

    good point


  • #388
    goudystout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭goudystout


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Or maybe you've never been lying on the floor, clutching your chest in agony while someone tries to explain to the ambulance crew where your rural house is.

    I'd be surprised about that too, because in the long run it would be the most useful and cost-effective approach. Which means it ain't gonna happen.


    I am sorry to say that the resolution has been published - it is on the record of Dail and Seanad and on Dept. Of Communications website - and it is only to townland level in non urban areas and 40-50 properties covered by one code as the general spec.

    So if anyone is expecting to find individual houses with this new code - you are mistaken and Eamonn Ryan is also on record as saying that it cannot be used on GPS for Data Protection resaons. It is also for the same reasons that the code will not distinguish one "Paddy Wallace" from another as "seamus" mentioned in an earlier post...

    So does anyone no what the €40 million that is about to be spent is for?..... one of the advantages quoted on the official report is "improved direct mail services" (Junk Mail) and their is no mention of benefits to property owners or buinesses....


  • #389
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    goudystout wrote: »
    Eamonn Ryan is also on record as saying that it cannot be used on GPS for Data Protection resaons.

    Taking the piss, can't they do anything right? :(


  • #390
    Alcatel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Alcatel


    So does anyone no what the €40 million that is about to be spent is for?..... one of the advantages quoted on the official report is "improved direct mail services" (Junk Mail) and their is no mention of benefits to property owners or buinesses....
    Delivery of services and fraud protection, being two.

    Do most other major countries have postcodes for the craic?


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  • #391
    goudystout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭goudystout


    Alcatel wrote: »
    Delivery of services and fraud protection, being two.

    Do most other major countries have postcodes for the craic?

    We should have postcodes too i agree, but surely they should be able to lead Emergency services to a house using a GPS and the same for couriers delivering goods ordered off the web anywhere in the country and allow tourists find tourist features which may be outside cities...

    It seems to me that there is not much point in introducing a postcode system after 5 years of consultants' reports which has the same addressing capability as an Irish townland i.e. you will just have to write a 6 character code instead of the townland name and no other additional benefits??:confused:


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