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Government introduces Postcodes in Ireland..?

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 19,608 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    Postcodes, people. Thread topic, postcodes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    sceptre wrote: »
    Postcodes, people. Thread topic, postcodes.

    Good Point


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,438 ✭✭✭Richard


    garydubh wrote: »
    Good Point

    So what's happening on the auld postcodes front then? Anything?


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,776 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Delphic wrote: »
    I hear you, Sceptre. Will drop it and revert to postcode discussion.

    On topic - my point was querying garydbh as to why he was sending me links to promotional information about postcodes and his company which deals with gps and postcodes, though.

    Is this what commerical bloggers are allowed do on these forums?
    That's not on-topic. garydubh didn't send you anything; he posted on this thread, and the software that runs the website sent you an email copy of his posts.

    Let's get on topic, please - and Delphic, please read the charter before posting again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    Richard wrote: »
    So what's happening on the auld postcodes front then? Anything?

    A National System is now 1 year overdue, no alternative implementation target has been published and ther is no allocation for Post Codes in the Dept Of Comms Budget for 2009.

    Watever happens - we do not have to wait for a National System - As an example Google does not use National OSI Mapping - things do not work like that any more - if something is available and it works and is of benefit - then people will use it.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Delphic


    hmmmm

    The more you read about this stuff, the nerdier you become.

    I can see why you'd want to have a database of postcodes created with addresses linked to them now. Makes sense. Here's what they're doing in the UK with the info with one company called Postzon™ Data. It allows you to link geographic and administrative data from government bodies such as local authorities and the NHS for all known Postcodes in the UK. Use it to help plan routes, calculate distances between Postcodes, allocate sales force areas, distribute resources or locate facilities.

    You can begin to see how this would seep into every aspect of how the country runs - almost as powerful as the PPSN.

    I wonder if the Data Commissioner would have to get involved across this? If you are linking people's houses with names/contact details such as email addresses, and then compiling this into a database for selling onto others, do you not cross privacy issues?

    Presume if postcodes came in, would they eventually published in one of the phone books? Seems logical that they would. An absolute boon for marketeers and researchers like myself. If you then start linking a database like this to other PIDs, the information becomes really rich and allows you to create various types of groupings for market analysis, though people might not necessarily like it.

    And given that we're in the politics section, wonder how tallymen/women would like postcodes - help or hindrance. They didn't like e-voting because it hid the counts and streetnames away from them - would postcode groupings start to take hold in constituncy names - make it easier to tally?

    The more you look at this, the more likely it is that the government would have to control it in some shape or form.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    Delphic wrote: »
    I can see why you'd want to have a database of postcodes created with addresses linked to them now. Makes sense. Here's what they're doing in the UK with the info with one company called Postzon™ Data. It allows you to link geographic and administrative data from government bodies such as local authorities and the NHS for all known Postcodes in the UK.

    Very interesting - you appeared to be just a casual user in your earlier posts.

    PON Codes are for built from a Navigation/delivery perspectice - they do not use a database - it is not needed - only those in the Bulk Mail - Mass Marketing industry have an over riding desire for Codes based on an address Database.

    Delphic wrote: »
    Use it to help plan routes, calculate distances between Postcodes, allocate sales force areas, distribute resources or locate facilities.

    You do not need a code linked to a database to do this - all you need is your code to be geographic like PON Codes and off you go.
    Delphic wrote: »
    I wonder if the Data Commissioner would have to get involved across this? If you are linking people's houses with names/contact details such as email addresses, and then compiling this into a database for selling onto others, do you not cross privacy issues?

    This would be a big issue if anyone was doing it - even Geodirectory cannot pass that type of info on. PON Codes do not do that and have a privacy statement relating to it. Is there someone you know that does that type of thing?
    Delphic wrote: »
    Presume if postcodes came in, would they eventually published in one of the phone books? Seems logical that they would. An absolute boon for marketeers and researchers like myself.

    Which did you say you where - researcher/marketeer?
    Delphic wrote: »
    If you then start linking a database like this to other PIDs, the information becomes really rich and allows you to create various types of groupings for market analysis, though people might not necessarily like it.

    Again that is the beauty of PON Codes - no database needed and even non properties or non addresses can have a PON Code. A a member of the British Postal Consultancy services said - " If Codes are needed for marketing/reasearch - let them design a code themselves for their own purposes"
    Delphic wrote: »
    The more you look at this, the more likely it is that the government would have to control it in some shape or form.

    If this was the popular point of view in all areas these days, then Google Maps would not exist as they could not afford OSI data and people would probably think twice about submitting business locations and POI's to it ......

    sounds like you have some well considered ideas on this and are firmly in address database and Government Control camp?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Delphic


    Nope - I'm not. I'm all for free market where it makes sense - so treat me as a potential competitor from now on! :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    Delphic wrote: »
    Nope - I'm not. I'm all for free market where it makes sense - so treat me as a potential competitor from now on! :)


    So what type of system are you proposing and are you the researcher or the marketeer?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Delphic


    SeanW wrote: »
    Although I like the idea behind the PON system, I agree with the posters above who said that the use of both 5 and S, 1 and I, 0 and O etc could cause confusion, and I think it would have been better if, when using numeric codes, numbers that can look like letters, or vice versa, should not have been used. Because codes can be written by people with sloppy handwriting, or by computers and printing equipment with Sans Serif typefaces.

    I s'pose its too late to change it now though.

    Look on the bright side SeanW and see the market possibilities. have a look at the WEB S1TE that GAR YDBH mentioned - ww.ticode.ie - that gives out the unusual names. love some of them. My favourite is C0W PAT5 which is right in the middle of a field - very accurate! Why don't we have some of these? You could have some vanity/funny ones for sale - B1G DAWG, THE 5K1D, MRS R1CH, ALL FA1R, THE BE5T, CAS TLEG. The politicians would love it - HAW HEES, BER T1E1, G1L M0RE, SIN FE1N. Just put them over the right spot and you're LAU GHIN. You could make a FOR TUNE. Just don't sell or give out the ones that might cause 0FF ENCE. :)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    Delphic wrote: »
    Look on the bright side SeanW and see the market possibilities. have a look at the WEB S1TE that GAR YDBH mentioned - ww.ticode.ie - that gives out the unusual names. love some of them. My favourite is C0W PAT5 which is right in the middle of a field - very accurate! Why don't we have some of these? You could have some vanity/funny ones for sale - B1G DAWG, THE 5K1D, MRS R1CH, ALL FA1R, THE BE5T, CAS TLEG. The politicians would love it - HAW HEES, BER T1E1, G1L M0RE, SIN FE1N. Just put them over the right spot and you're LAU GHIN. You could make a FOR TUNE. Just don't sell or give out the ones that might cause 0FF ENCE. :)

    That's why I have been prepared to spend time on here answering questions about PON Codes as unlike what you are referring to above - they were thought through and are a serious offering;- already field tested on Garmin devices and ready for the next step!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Delphic


    garydubh wrote: »
    That's why I have been prepared to spend time on here answering questions about PON Codes as unlike what you are referring to above - they were thought through and are a serious offering;- already field tested on Garmin devices and ready for the next step!

    Garydbh - you make it sound like having to post on here is some kind of imposition on you and that you've better things to be doing with your time. :) You know it's a voluntary discussion board so you don't have to answer any questions. people choose to come on here and get involved and promote their thoughts on postcodes - there's no obligation on you to respond.

    I think the above is worth considering - it might be one way of marketing the idea of post codes to people. But just because of these word-codes you say the other system is not a serious offering - that seems a bit dismissive since they're attractive to some and relatively easy to fix or avoid if you don't want them, according to what you've said about your own code.

    I think having a flexible code so that you can adapt it for different purposes - not just limit it for navigation/direction-finding - would be ideal. There are ways of doing this no doubt, but you'd have to start from scratch in working out how to create the code - but it's an interesting challenge.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    Delphic wrote: »
    Garydbh - you make it sound like having to post on here is some kind of imposition on you and that you've better things to be doing with your time. :) You know it's a voluntary discussion board so you don't have to answer any questions. people choose to come on here and get involved and promote their thoughts on postcodes - there's no obligation on you to respond.

    I think the above is worth considering - it might be one way of marketing the idea of post codes to people. But just because of these word-codes you say the other system is not a serious offering - that seems a bit dismissive since they're attractive to some and relatively easy to fix or avoid if you don't want them, according to what you've said about your own code.

    I think having a flexible code so that you can adapt it for different purposes - not just limit it for navigation/direction-finding - would be ideal. There are ways of doing this no doubt, but you'd have to start from scratch in working out how to create the code - but it's an interesting challenge.

    What?.......you are joking!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    This is a serious dicussion!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Delphic


    Figured as much. That's disappointing as a response.:rolleyes:

    Never mind.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Delphic


    Govt could implement postcodes this year to be used for delivery of mail, data analysis and social service support. Navigation/gps linkages are something to consider as well whilst being conscious of other technologies emerging in this area, and the various platforms being created with increasing shift of satnav technology to mobile phones and the attendant complexities this will bring in relation to competition, charging and licensing

    Interesting.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,366 ✭✭✭luckat


    What's keeping them?

    Postcodes were first mooted in the 1960s, when people were afraid old addresses would be lost. Why do we not use them yet? They'd make life a lot more convenient.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,199 ✭✭✭markpb


    luckat wrote: »
    What's keeping them? Postcodes were first mooted in the 1960s, when people were afraid old addresses would be lost. Why do we not use them yet? They'd make life a lot more convenient.

    This government takes decades to make any big decision, they'd prefer to talk about it for eons and "consult with the social partners". There's no reason to expect them to treat postcodes differently.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Delphic


    luckat wrote: »
    What's keeping them?

    Postcodes were first mooted in the 1960s, when people were afraid old addresses would be lost. Why do we not use them yet? They'd make life a lot more convenient.

    These things take time, luckat/mardp. Our government likes to deliberate on these things. But they're getting there within the next few months (or so.):rolleyes:

    There's a few companies out there who are willing to step up to the challenge and provide one, even if the govt doesn't do anything. You can look at their websites and see what you think, here's two of them that have been talked about - gpsireland.ie and ticode.ie. Both systems propose using a code based on geographic coordinates that would allow you to be a lot more specific about a location than some of the existing postcode systems. Some people think that it's too specific, others think it's great cos you can get one for anyplace, not just a house or office. Both of them are up and running on a trial basis and seeing what the response is from people.

    They would have a number of useful functions for getting around the place, using them on your satnav - whoch both of the above codes currently allow you to do - or pass them on to friends, businesses or delivery companies to let them know where you are. Eventually you could have a database - kinda like the phone book, where you'd have a code to go along with an address and phone number for houses and businesses.

    The funny thing is that the codes mightn't get used for delivering post at all - despite their name - since An Post already have their own system for delivering mail. However, they would be useful for navigation, research, analysis and other things.

    And the good thing is, you get the codes for free. Have done a bit of research on both sites comparing what they can do from user's point of view, which I'll get around to putting up a summary of here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    Delphic wrote: »
    These things take time, luckat/mardp. Our government likes to deliberate on these things. But they're getting there within the next few months (or so.):rolleyes:

    There's a few companies out there who are willing to step up to the challenge and provide one, even if the govt doesn't do anything. You can look at their websites and see what you think, here's two of them that have been talked about - gpsireland.ie and ticode.ie. Both systems propose using a code based on geographic coordinates that would allow you to be a lot more specific about a location than some of the existing postcode systems. Some people think that it's too specific, others think it's great cos you can get one for anyplace, not just a house or office. Both of them are up and running on a trial basis and seeing what the response is from people.

    They would have a number of useful functions for getting around the place, using them on your satnav - whoch both of the above codes currently allow you to do - or pass them on to friends, businesses or delivery companies to let them know where you are. Eventually you could have a database - kinda like the phone book, where you'd have a code to go along with an address and phone number for houses and businesses.

    The funny thing is that the codes mightn't get used for delivering post at all - despite their name - since An Post already have their own system for delivering mail. However, they would be useful for navigation, research, analysis and other things.

    And the good thing is, you get the codes for free. Have done a bit of research on both sites comparing what they can do from user's point of view, which I'll get around to putting up a summary of here.

    I am intrigued that whilst you have stated here previously that you have no prior knowledge of this area you are now offering council and insight and are about to post your research into the benefits of proposed systems. It would be good, therefore, if you declared your background and expertise that supports your arguments.

    Furthermore, if you are going to do comparisons between systems I would hope that you would accept that any proposal which determines a code based on position and that code can spell words of any sort would not be acceptable. No point in saying that you could change if if it did not suit - otherwise why base it on position in the first place - or like the article says... would you move the address to suit?

    On this Thread there has already been much discussion on the merits of several proposals and I think they all have significant merits above a system which spells words so that a Post Code could even be a Placename relating to somewhere else in the Country entirely!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Delphic


    Garybabes - No prior knowledge? Background and expertise? In GPS? Absolutely none. Well I own a satnav if that counts. :p

    However, I can read stuff and understand it. And arrive at a point of view. Or provide a summary of what I've read. Much of the information for that came from your good self that you posted on here, as well as other posters and their views. That's what this is - a discussion board. No one is claiming to be God and know everything. I'm certainly not.

    Stating that the govt is going to make up its mind soon isnt that difficult a call to make since they have said so in media reports which you posted here on the discussion board. Or they mightn't. Waddya want - a soothsayer? I only do Delphic predictions.

    Postcodes are not rocket science, so it's not difficult to understand what's been written on here. You take existing geographic information and you turn it into a code. You design that code so that it's fit for purpose. Eureka! - what's so difficult about that to understand or have expertise in?

    Some people wanted to know more on here. What did you do? You posted up even more information to explain it to people here in glorious detail. Now everyone understands the issues, what's involved, what the challenges are, and even some of the solutions, and your opinions on them all. I now know more about postcodes than I ever thought I would in a lifetime thanks mainly to your posts on here.

    Who am I offering counsel to on here? (I presume you meant counsel not council.) Hardly yourself, as you say, you're the expert and you've spent two years on this. Everyone else? That'd be an audience of two at the last count.

    You think I'm offering insight? I'm flattered you would say so, thanks. [I'll come back to that.]

    I didn't actually say that I was going to 'post research into the benefits of proposed systems'. So I've no arguments to support that. Nor need for them. I said I had "done a bit of research on both sites comparing what they can do from user's point of view." Not judgemental, simply reading and collating the information as presented on the websites about the two systems. It's other people who can make the judgement on what's there.

    In advance of me doing that, can I can offer you some insight or advice?

    Knowing wood from trees.

    You're too burned into this spellings issue. Not sure what article you're referring to about moving addresses, but anyway the point is that it's a resolvable issue. You presumably identified the same issue in your system, and took steps to avoid it as you discovered them - the same thing can be done by restricting letters and numbers in particular places like you said you've done. If that's your only problem with it, fine - you've made your point.

    What you fail to recognise is if a company is developing a project that is at Beta stage - as the ticode site says - then it's inevitable that you make changes as you go along as you get feedback.

    You said that you've done the same thing yourself with your site. You've been told your form filling was tedious, so you say you're getting rid of it for the next stage of your website. No one is saying that your site is useless because there's a complex and time-consuming form to fill out.

    Something else to think about related to the issue you've said about ticode code characters creating confusion about places.

    What about the people who said you have included confusing characters like 1 and I or 5 and S in your code. Some people might think or say that the code is useless because of that and that it's not a 'serious offer'. Is that fair?

    You maintain that it's not an issue because people will use capital letters when writing them. Except, those same people might counter that the numeral 1 and capital I look very similar when written. You then provided an example to perfectly illustrate the point people were making.

    You said - in previous post - that K15 is in Co. Galway and K1S is in Co. Roscommon. You want people to remember this, all the time? You can't presume users are going to know, remember or even care about the rules of how the code is created.

    Some people might argue that it's a substantial flaw in a code to include both as separate characters. If a user is going to tell this particular code to someone, they won't necessarily give the address - they mightn't even know it - and you end up sending them to Galway instead of Roscommon! Whatever you might think, that has huge potential for confusion amongst users.

    Would it be fair of me to say the code is not a 'serious offer' whilst it remains like that?

    Or if I am going to do comparisons between systems I would hope that you would accept that any proposal which determines a code based on one position and that code can be interpreted to mean somewhere else would not be acceptable. And there's no point in saying that you could change if it did not suit - otherwise why base it on position in the first place?

    Or even imagine if someone said that on this thread there has already been much discussion on the merits of several proposals and I think they all have significant merits above a system with a Post Code that sends you to two different places in the Country depending on how you read it!

    You know what? You might be right. I think I should charge for all this counsel and insight. :D


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    Delphic wrote: »
    Garybabes :D

    surely you mean garydubh!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Delphic


    maybe I do, maybe I don't.....

    They don't call me Delphic for nothing, you know. ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    Delphic wrote: »
    maybe I do, maybe I don't.....

    They don't call me Delphic for nothing, you know.

    So Delphic is not really a place near Longford ! ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Delphic


    It's more AR6 LJFA.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    Delphic wrote: »
    It's more AR6 LJFA.


    Arrah Sweet FA ! - looks nice............


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Delphic


    Nice place, isn't it? Well worth a visit. Great part of the country. Did some filming there for a while. Magic scenery.

    Back to topic - so you have nothing to comment on the above response?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    Delphic wrote: »
    Nice place, isn't it? Well worth a visit. Great part of the country. Did some filming there for a while. Magic scenery.

    Back to topic - so you have nothing to comment on the above response?

    Filming!...... isn't that up in Carlingford?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Delphic


    eh I'm confused about you mentioning Carlingford all of a sudden.

    Was wondering what your response on the above post about postcodes - he said, desperately trying to get back on topic, before the moderators smite from on high......

    Or do I simply assume that you agree with it - which is fine - silence is an answer in itself.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Delphic


    Garydbh - get the reference to Carlingford now. There's another centre there.

    I'll see if I can complete the location code site features comparison and put it up tomorrow/weekend.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Delphic


    garydubh wrote: »
    Furthermore, if you are going to do comparisons between systems I would hope that you would accept that any proposal which determines a code based on position and that code can spell words of any sort would not be acceptable. No point in saying that you could change if if it did not suit - otherwise why base it on position in the first place - or like the article says... would you move the address to suit?

    On this Thread there has already been much discussion on the merits of several proposals and I think they all have significant merits above a system which spells words so that a Post Code could even be a Placename relating to somewhere else in the Country entirely!

    Garydbh - one thing to check - did you actually try putting in any of those words you said the ticode.ie code could have? It doesn't allow you to "spell words of any sort", like D0G FACE. Nor have "placenames relating to somewhere else in the Country", like NEN AGH.

    Nenagh is right where it's supposed to be. In Nenagh, Co Clare. That's not how it works. You don't type in the name of county as a code, you put in the code that represents the location you want to map. Same as your system.


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