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Government introduces Postcodes in Ireland..?

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Comments

  • #352
    slimjimmc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,786 ✭✭✭slimjimmc


    garydubh wrote: »
    I understand what you are saying - if you have to wait for Government to do anything then there will be a long wait.

    However, PostCodes or similar do not need the Government to provide them but the absence of them is similar to restricted access to broadband. Broadband means quicker access to data and web services with less cost. PostCodes capable of being used in vehicles means quicker and more efficient access to deliveries/collections to/from properties anywhere in the country at less cost. This also means anyone - whether in urban or rural areas - can avail of the full benefit of web purchasing and selling services facilitated by broadband - which they are currently unable to do.

    Broadband and Postcodes both need to be "fixed" as you call it but PostCodes if done privately will not need the same financial input and expensive infrastructure. They can be fully implemented without Government funding and at no cost to the user - just benefits!


    How would any location or post code help a consumer "avail of the full benefit of web purchasing and selling services facilitated by broadband" any better than the current system? It just makes it easier for the delivery boy but I still get my order so no benefit to me. Anything that goes missing or delayed is usally a result of a cock-up in a depot somewhere. Maybe it benefits the marketing industry more.


  • #353
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    slimjimmc wrote: »
    How would any location or post code help a consumer "avail of the full benefit of web purchasing and selling services facilitated by broadband" any better than the current system? It just makes it easier for the delivery boy but I still get my order so no benefit to me. Anything that goes missing or delayed is usally a result of a cock-up in a depot somewhere. Maybe it benefits the marketing industry more.

    It all may be ok for you but many couriers will not deliver or pick up for many living in rural areas - too much time and fuel wasted trying to find them. Couriers in Ireland have to deal with failed deliveries due to non unique addresses and their tariffs, therefore, include a consideration for these problems.

    One well known UK web sales company employs 10 people just to resolve address issues when delivering to Ireland - who do you think pays for the manpower and the time?

    Post Codes would resolve this and reduce costs as well as improving delivery times - not to mention the fact that emergency services would get to the right place quicker.

    As for marketing - well discussed on here already! Most junk mail gets in your letter box without any address at all and perhaps even at that hand of the Post man - I returned 3 peices of unaddressed junk mail to the postman only yesterday! Certainly Post Codes built using address databases would assist in marketing but a geo code such as a PON Code does not need an address database!

    The benefits of PostCodes in Ireland are well documented and recognised - they are not a requirement for sorting mail but they are an absolute necessity for logistics and vehicle based services for which there are 0.5 million commercial vehicles using our roads in Ireland!


  • #354
    Delphic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Delphic


    They're not an 'absolute necessity' - they would be nice to have, but they're not essential for logistics and delivery people. Introducing postcodes, not just limited ones for delivery and logistics, will take time to implement, but it is the best route forward. Choosing a limited option is starting off from the wrong point and will only put off the inevitable, and create more confusion for consumers and businesses alike. Talking to people here in the States, zipcodes have become part of the national fabric and are used for many purposes not just the relatively narrow ones of navigation or delivery businesses. Linking them to databases may take time, but are much more worthwhile in the long run - that has been the experience in US. The investment of money and time into doing that is more than repaid from the revenues generated as a result and there is little or no cost to Govt/taxpayer - public and private sector benefit.


  • #355
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    ZIP Codes are one of several 50's and 60's developed Post Code systems put in place solely for delivering mail. They are based on postal delivery sorting offices, areas and routes to which a list of addresses is added to create a database. As a result of development and changes, the ZIP Codes allocated to addresses may have to keep changing. Also the ZIP Codes themselves have grown from 5 to 11 characters but most in the USA only remember and use the first 5 characters. A 5 Charcater ZIP Code is only a general area and not suitable for SatNav's, delivery or logistics. The ongoing administrative problems associated with ZIP codes (and similar codes) are highlighted here

    A Geographic code created independent of an address database does not suffer from these problems and locations that are not properties can also have a code - mobile clinics, car boot sales, point to point races, outdoor music events, construction sites, agricultural shows, ploughing matches, sporting events - the list is endless............


  • #356
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    In an earlier post somone stated that with respect to the introduction of postcodes in Ireland:
    "They're not an 'absolute necessity' - they would be nice to have, but they're not essential for logistics and delivery people"

    This opinion is not shared by the experts in the logistics area. You would imagine that the Irish Association of International Express Carriers (IAIEC) - which includes people like DHL, FedEx, TNT and UPS - would know what they are talking about! In their submission for sustainable travel in Ireland, PostCodes are No.1 on their list of recommendations - see here


  • #357
    Delphic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Delphic


    Thank you. This reinforces the point that they're not an absolute necessity as you stated. If they were, the business wouldn't be able to operate at all. But it does operate and relatively efficiently. If the delivery and logistics sector believes it could be more efficient with postcodes, that's a different argument for efficiency and added value, but it's not an 'absolute necessity' as you have asserted. It's a recommendation from a report. I'm sure a logistics and delivery representative body would recommend the introduction of postcodes if it benefits their members and customers. It doesn't make it an essential for society in Ireland. But I don't think the views of one body representing one particular sector should set the agenda for what kind of a national postcode system we have in Ireland, nor should the commercial aspirations of a satnav distributor and one of their distributors, bluntly. This is too important. It needs Govt input and regulation that makes it multi-functional and accessible to all within fair and reasonable commercial terms if it needs to be self-financing and sustainable.


  • #358
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    1. An Post says they do not need a PostCode at all for sorting mail - this can be done by OCR and Geodirectory - agreed by other National postal services globally. With all the postmen on the ground they do not need a Code for delivering either, although new postsmen in rural areas need a lot of route training which a navigation code could assist with if available.

    2. Private companies who will shortly get a license to handle private mail would not need a PostCode to sort mail if they had OCR and were allowed free access to Geodirectory like An Post. However, even if they used this to sort, as they do not have dedicated Postmen on daily routes, they must use courier type techniques to deliver mail for which they will need a Navigation Code as the local knowledge of the postman will not be available to them.

    3. As stated in my last post -the logistics community need a navigation code - independent research in the UK has indicated the cost saving benefits.

    4. The services community need a code - Furniture/White Goods delivery, utility services, house repairs, mobile car repairs etc etc - independent research in the UK has indicated the cost saving benefits.

    There are 0.5 million commercial vehicles in Ireland which include logistics, couriers and service operators (Not including Vets, Mobile Medical Services, 1st Responders, sales persons, taxis etc etc) - a lot more of these than postmen!

    We should mention also the statisticians - the NSB who in their submission to Government on Postcodes (Extract from NSB Quoted here) stated that if the intended Post Code was a Geo Code - it would have many advantages.

    Oh I nearly forgot - what about the marketing people (The "marketeers")....... they want whatever code is put into use to be linked to an address database as only this allows them to individually address bulk and marketing mail. They also need the Government to support it so that An Post's "arm will be twisted" into using it if they are to be used for distributing the bulk mail!

    One such bulk mail/marketing company has its own postcode proposal mentioned here previously.


  • #359
    slimjimmc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,786 ✭✭✭slimjimmc


    3. As stated in my last post -the logistics community need a navigation code - independent research in the UK has indicated the cost saving benefits.

    4. The services community need a code - Furniture/White Goods delivery, utility services, house repairs, mobile car repairs etc etc - independent research in the UK has indicated the cost saving benefits.

    This is more of a"want" rather than a "need" imo. They want it as a means of helping to reduce costs, fair enough but they don't need it to provide their service. Plenty of people in rural areas seem to have no problem getting fuel deliveries, plumbers or tow trucks for donkey's-years simply working off directions and landmarks. I appreciate a code would be useful to certain industries (if the customer knows it - a significant weakness of any system) but I'm not convinced it is essential.

    How would anyone know the co-ordinates of their current position without the aid of a certain Sat-Nav (not every one has or wants one)? If such a person came across the scene of an accident on a road how do suggest they advise the co-ords to the Emergency Services if they don't know them? My guess is that they would do what they do at present and provide directions and landmarks.


  • #360
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    slimjimmc wrote: »
    This is more of a"want" rather than a "need" imo. They want it as a means of helping to reduce costs, fair enough but they don't need it to provide their service.

    They need it to provide the same service at the same cost to all potential clients in all areas. I guess these companies know best what they need to grow their capability in Ireland and operate efficiently. Discussing the difference between the words "Want" and "Need" is really not for this thread. I can only suggest that they would not be asking for a postcode if they did not feel they needed it!
    slimjimmc wrote: »
    Plenty of people in rural areas seem to have no problem getting fuel deliveries, plumbers or tow trucks for donkeys years simply working off directions and landmarks. I appreciate a code would be useful to certain industries (if the customer knows it - a significant weakness of any system) but I'm not convinced it is essential..

    If you drive as part of your job in Ireland you would appreciate the requirement. With respect to "Donkeys Years" - even the donkeys nowadays may now not be local or even Irish with associated local knowledge!

    Finding your code is not difficult - free for anyone using the web - or someone else's if don't have access and with over 45% web access and growing - everyone knows "a man who does"! (someone who has web access that is)
    slimjimmc wrote: »
    How would anyone know the co-ordinates of their current position without the aid of a certain Sat-Nav (not every one has or wants one)? If such a person came across the scene of an accident on a road how do suggest they advise the co-ords to the Emergency Services if they know know them? My guess is that they would do what they do at present and provide directions and landmarks.

    There are several issues raised here:

    1. Approximately 1 million SatNav's will be in use in Ireland by the end of 2010. (In the UK there are already over 14 million SatNav users) By the end of 2012, GPS will be available widely in all mobile phones as standard. Mobile phones already have over 100% penetration in Ireland.

    2. Knowing the coordinates or location of a breakdown or accident is a seperate matter. Helped of course if you have a GPS or SatNav. However, there is seperate EU legislation which Ireland has signed up to but not yet implemented requiring vehicles to have an emergency location transponder (GPS & GSM/GPRS) - capable of being both automatically and manually activated in the case of an accident. However, this is a different matter entirely!


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  • #361
    Delphic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Delphic


    Spot on SlimJimm - there is a world of difference between 'need' and 'want'. And of course it's relevant on this thread - determining why a service is an absolute necessity (which is the exact phrase garydubh used) or a nice-to-have want is central to what is being debated here.

    Funnily enough, the more detail Gary D adds to his argument, the more he confirms the points that Slimjimmc and myself are making. His last couple of posts seem to indicate that postcodes have a relevance and societal importance that requires a greater oversight and needs analysis than his own commercial interests. For example, in earlier posts he was against what bulkmail companies would like to have and the use of a database address system, but now cites them as another grouping that need to have a postcode. He also say that new postal companies will need to have a postcode database system in order to operate even though he says a database system is difficult to maintain.

    If these are the kinds of demands and criteria that different types of companies and organisations have, then this starts to dicatate the kind of code that should be developed. And the current one is not necessarily fit for purpose.

    Slimjimmc - you made an important point - Pond geocoordinates can't be found 'without the aid of a certain satnav'. The system is far too limited for something that is needed by a range of organisation and activities.

    The black box for cars has been mentioned recently in the context of eCall the system that cannot be implemented due to lack of State GPS facilities - an MEP was giving out about it. (Irish Times article in the last week) This could be linked into a geo-ordinate code if one was being used.


  • #362
    slimjimmc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,786 ✭✭✭slimjimmc


    garydubh wrote: »
    They need it to provide the same service at the same cost to all potential clients in all areas. I guess these companies know best what they need to grow their capability in Ireland and operate efficiently.
    I wouldn't expect a courier in Donegal to charge customers in Cork and Derry the same price. I wouldn't expect his competitor down the road from him to do so either. There are many other factors which affect cost to a much greater degree than going to the wrong house in the same townland.
    garydubh wrote: »
    Discussing the difference between the words
    "Want" and "Need" is really not for this thread. I can only suggest that they would not be asking for a postcode if they did not feel they needed it!
    Ah but it's not as irrelevant to this thread as you suggest. The difference does have a bearing on the discussion on whether Ireland should or shoud not use codes. A 'need' advocates much more importance than a 'want' and vice-versa.
    garydubh wrote: »
    If you drive as part of your job in Ireland you would appreciate the requirement. With respect to "Donkeys Years" - even the donkeys nowadays may now not be local or even Irish with associated local knowledge!

    If they can read an address, directions, road signs (if any), know their right from their left and can follow a map then they don't really need local knowledge. They might have to stop every now and then to check their notes (inconvenient and costs a few mins delay) but I'm sure if you give anyone sufficient directions they'll be able to find your house as effectively as any code.
    garydubh wrote: »
    Finding your code is not difficult - free for anyone using the web - or someone else's if don't have access and with over 45% web access and growing - everyone knows "a man who does"! (someone who has web access that is)

    A valid point. There are also people who are of a different generation who even struggle with phone numbers, however, having said that it should be possible for business to check up a customers code on the web themselves. If people continue doing this then it's possible to arrive at a situation where a code is only relevant to businesses and not to people as a whole.

    garydubh wrote: »
    There are several issues raised here:

    1. Approximately 1 million SatNav's will be in use in Ireland by the end of 2010. (In the UK there are already over 14 million SatNav users) By the end of 2012, GPS will be available widely in all mobile phones as standard. Mobile phones already have over 100% penetration in Ireland.

    2. Knowing the coordinates or location of a breakdown or accident is a seperate matter. Helped of course if you have a GPS or SatNav.
    I disagree, without an electronic device it is highly unlikley an emergency caller will know a location code; in this case a code is defunct. The benefit comes if the depatch base provides co-ords to the emergency vehicle but a post code or PONC would have no more advantage than existing geo co-ords.
    garydubh wrote: »
    However, there is seperate EU legislation which Ireland has signed up to but not yet implemented requiring vehicles to have an emergency location transponder (GPS & GSM/GPRS) - capable of being both automatically and manually activated in the case of an accident. However, this is a different matter entirely!

    This is interesting especially if the human doesn't need to do anything other than push a button. Can you point me to a source for more info, a few Google searches didn't show anything. Would it be a requirement to retrofit such a system to older vehicles?

    I would suspect that any transponder system would use an internationally standard code, rather than a national one. The only code that comes to mind are geo co-ords most likely provided by an open service such as Galileo.

    Edit: just saw Delphic's post, Thanks. Will look up EU site for eCall but feel free to post other info.


  • #363
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    slimjimmc wrote: »
    If they can read an address, directions, road signs (if any), know their right from their left and can follow a map then they don't really need local knowledge. They might have to stop every now and then to check their notes (inconvenient and costs a few mins delay) but I'm sure if you give anyone sufficient directions they'll be able to find your house as effectively as any code.

    slimjimmc: I respect that this is your opinion - but your argument does not hold water and is not that which those who drive for a living in Ireland would make. I would also imagine that there would not be too many who would agree with you on the matter of using road signs. I am also interested that you would be in essence saying that those in the Logistics industry are wrong when they say that a PostCode is a key element of any sustainable transport in Ireland. By the same token, and by implication, you are also saying that the Emergency services are also wrong when they say that they also need a PostCode and that AED & 1st responder groups who are voluntarily trying to introduce codes around the country for their purposes are just wasting their time!
    slimjimmc wrote: »
    I disagree, without an electronic device it is highly unlikley an emergency caller will know a location code; in this case a code is defunct. The benefit comes if the depatch base provides co-ords to the emergency vehicle but a post code or PONC would have no more advantage than existing geo co-ords.

    This is a red herring - The argument for postcodes is not related to dynamic positioning -Nowhere on here or eleswhere has anyone made an argument for those involved in accident along a road being able to find a postcode. It would be certainly desirable and can be facilitated by technology but it is not part of the main justifications for a PostCode in Ireland. The main argument promoted by the Emergency Services themselves is for PostCodes of properties so that they can react more quickly and more confidently as our addressing system on its own does not fully satisfy their needs.

    As you have raised the issue of accidents on roads I suggested that technology was widely available to support PostCodes (Phones/SatNav's) and purely for information I mentioned the EU proposed emergency transponder. Furthermore, as you may also be interested that in the USA, mobile networks must now be able to support Lat/long coordinates coming from a GPS on a mobile phone when a 911 call is made. There are proposals to support the same facility in Europe. However in all these cases Lat/long coordinates are what are supported electronically and therefore this is not in any way relevant to a case for PostCodes.
    slimjimmc wrote: »
    I would suspect that any transponder system would use an internationally standard code, rather than a national one. The only code that comes to mind are geo co-ords most likely provided by an open service such as Galileo.

    Ok so lets not get confused totally here..

    1. Any position transmitted electronically over the airwaves or along a cable uses Latitude and Longitude which is the existing international standard. There is no need to change this in any way and this has nothing to do with the case for PostCodes. The requirement for PostCodes is for when an address or destination is to be communicated by normal means.

    2. Galileo is just another GPS service and will eventaully be a constituent of GNSS related services - it is an EU and ESA proposed satellite postioning service which is now well behind on delivery and most likely will not see IOC before 2014 - again - this has nothing to do with the case for PostCodes.

    Summarising Then:
    Your argument is that PostCodes are not Required in Ireland and not a requirement for the logistics sector no matter what the logistics people say themselves. You have used your own opinion to support this argument and cited that road signs, paper maps and local knowledge is all that is required!

    Obviously I would disagree with your opinion on this and have used the arguments of the people involved in the logistics industries to support the case for PostCodes.


  • #364
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    eCall the system that cannot be implemented due to lack of State GPS facilities

    This comment was incorrcetly made in an earlier post. It is important that it is pointed out that no "State GPS Facilities" are required by any country in order to use GPS. It is a global system which operates independent of any local infrastructure or services.


  • #365
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Delphic wrote: »
    The black box for cars has been mentioned recently in the context of eCall the system that cannot be implemented due to lack of State GPS facilities - an MEP was giving out about it. (Irish Times article in the last week)
    Link, please. I completely fail to see what an proposed emergency system that uses GPS and GPRS has to do with post codes, or endeed what a "State GPS facility" is.


  • #366
    Delphic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Delphic


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Link, please. I completely fail to see what an proposed emergency system that uses GPS and GPRS has to do with post codes, or endeed what a "State GPS facility" is.

    I think the point that Garydubh has been repeatedly hammering home is that postcode is a misnomer - it's about creating a precise location code that is more fit for purpose for 21st Century society.

    This is the link - and here's extract from the Irish Times article on 14 Jan '09:
    "THE GOVERNMENT is “stalling” on the introduction of a global satellite positioning system (GPS), leading to unnecessary fatalities and injuries on Irish roads, the European Commission has been told. The eCall system uses GPS to identify and locate vehicles in the aftermath of a crash.

    Irish MEP Jim Higgins has told the Commission that Ireland – along with other countries which are not making progress – should be compelled to introduce the system.

    The system links GPS technology to the 112 or 999 phone numbers, meaning that, even if a driver is unconscious, the vehicle will automatically ring the emergency services and notify them of its location."
    www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2009/0114/1231738221637.html

    I was thinking that if the black box in a car transmitted the long/lat of a location, this might also be usefully transmitted verbally to say police, or other services, or even family members, as an easy code like PON codes or Ticodes. There's a number of companies looking at developing these black boxes and have been lobbying national and EU politicians/policymakers - I met the CEO of one of these companies about 18 months ago who gave me the details on the system, how it would operate and how it could link to a number of services/companies - from emergency to insurance companies.


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  • #367
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Delphic wrote: »
    I think the point that Garydubh has been repeatedly hammering home is that postcode is a misnomer - it's about creating a precise location code that is more fit for purpose for 21st Century society.
    I agree with him, and share his frustration that the government has been dragging its feet over the introduction of such a code, largely down to the objections of one vested interest (An Post).
    This is the link - and here's extract from the Irish Times article on 14 Jan '09:
    "THE GOVERNMENT is “stalling” on the introduction of a global satellite positioning system (GPS), leading to unnecessary fatalities and injuries on Irish roads, the European Commission has been told. The eCall system uses GPS to identify and locate vehicles in the aftermath of a crash.
    Completely misleading headline. The GPS is in place, and has been for years. It's the implementation of the eCall system itself, or more specifically its integration with emergency service systems, that the government is stalling on.
    I was thinking that if the black box in a car transmitted the long/lat of a location, this might also be usefully transmitted verbally to say police, or other services, or even family members, as an easy code like PON codes or Ticodes. There's a number of companies looking at developing these black boxes and have been lobbying national and EU politicians/policymakers - I met the CEO of one of these companies about 18 months ago who gave me the details on the system, how it would operate and how it could link to a number of services/companies - from emergency to insurance companies.
    I can see a use for such a function, but its absence is hardly a compelling reason to delay the introduction of such a critically important life-saving system.


  • #368
    Delphic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭Delphic


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I agree with him, and share his frustration that the government has been dragging its feet over the introduction of such a code, largely down to the objections of one vested interest (An Post).

    Don't quite agree with that. The govt was being persuaded by an Post to implement a more archaic postcode, - if one was to be implemented at all - and thankfully, it didn't. It has been persuaded to look at the use of a geo-coordinate code instead. Becasue of the fact that it is much more specific and links directly to an individual building, presents a number of problems that a more general area code might not. I'd say the jury is still out on which type they'll use.

    "Completely misleading headline. The GPS is in place, and has been for years. It's the implementation of the eCall system itself, or more specifically its integration with emergency service systems, that the government is stalling on."

    If you want to fight with a headline in the Irish Times, that's fine by me. You won't be the last. :) I agree that implementation is the key word. You wouldn't believe how old the systems for communications are amongst emergency services of fire, ambulance and police. Bringing in a GPS and internet-linked system would revolutionise the comms systems. The intro of a GPS related code would, I suspect, cause consternation and celebration in equal measure.

    "I can see a use for such a function, but its absence is hardly a compelling reason to delay the introduction of such a critically important life-saving system."

    You're possibly right. I wasn't arguing that it was. As I said in my original
    post - "This (eCall system) could be linked into a geo-ordinate code if one was being used." It's an add-on facility, a nice to have, not an absolute necessity.


  • #369
    luckat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,366 ✭✭✭luckat


    slimjimmc wrote: »
    If they can read an address, directions, road signs (if any), know their right from their left and can follow a map then they don't really need local knowledge. They might have to stop every now and then to check their notes (inconvenient and costs a few mins delay) but I'm sure if you give anyone sufficient directions they'll be able to find your house as effectively as any code.

    Up to a point. My satnav tried to bring me to a Kinvara in Connemara when I asked it to bring me to Kinvara, Co Galway (on the Galway-Clare border). Post codes would make things a lot easier.

    They would also - not that this is necessarily a good thing in the current climate of job losses - allow more automation.


  • #370
    byrnefm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 889 ✭✭✭byrnefm


    I found the following article today when googling to see if there was any update on Ireland perhaps getting postcodes some day:

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE58K16S20090921

    Is this true or just more speculation? I don't know where Reuters heard that Ireland would get postcodes "in about a year" (from last September).


  • #371
    Sulmac
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭Sulmac


    byrnefm wrote: »
    I found the following article today when googling to see if there was any update on Ireland perhaps getting postcodes some day:

    http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE58K16S20090921

    Is this true or just more speculation? I don't know where Reuters heard that Ireland would get postcodes "in about a year" (from last September).

    Well, there was an article in the latest Sunday Tribune about this:
    Ryan finalises plans for new postcode system

    Jennifer Bray

    Residents in Dublin's coveted D4 addresses have only two years left until their exclusive postcode is renamed by the Department of Communications, as plans for the new postcode system are finalised byMinister Eamon Ryan.

    The department plans to issue tenders for the system by Easter, but a delay has meant the code will not be in place until the end of 2011, and not early next year as planned.

    Under the new coding system, areas such as Dublin 4 and Dublin 6 will be renamed under a new six-digit system, such as D04123 and D06123.

    However Labour's spokeswoman for Communications, Energy and Natural Re sources, Liz McManus, said the latest estimates for the new system show it will cost a minimum of €40m.

    McManus has also said businesses will suffer further financial hardships as they will be forced to change their address records and data.

    "This is not the time to be implementing this system, and it appears to be nothing more than a vanity project for the minister."

    January 3, 2010


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  • #372
    lol_leo
    Registered Users Posts: 60 ✭✭lol_leo


    I hope its true.

    Not sure what the estimate of 40m is about? Labour and their usual negativity...


  • #373
    Spiritoftheseventies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    Hilarious discussion on Last Word. you will get it on the podcast tomorrow. Ciaran Cuffe green party at one stage mentioned that even Santy had a post code. Gas stuff.


  • #374
    Colonel Sanders
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,669 ✭✭✭Colonel Sanders


    bayviewclose wrote: »
    Hilarious discussion on Last Word. you will get it on the podcast tomorrow. Ciaran Cuffe green party at one stage mentioned that even Santy had a post code. Gas stuff.

    I heard this. His whole justification for the introduction seemed to be that other countries have them


  • #375
    Spiritoftheseventies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    Colonel Sanders wrote: »
    I heard this. His whole justification for the introduction seemed to be that other countries have them
    That and his election stuff not reaching his constituents. See that drew a skeptical sigh from Liz McManus.


  • #376
    goudystout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭goudystout


    bayviewclose wrote: »
    Hilarious discussion on Last Word. you will get it on the podcast tomorrow. Ciaran Cuffe green party at one stage mentioned that even Santy had a post code. Gas stuff.

    But Santy's codes take him to exactly the right house, the PostCode that they are proposing for Ireland will take you to the middle of up to 50 houses and you'll have to take pot luck after that.

    If it is to be any better, they would have to add road names and house numbers in country areas and not many are going to agree to that....

    Its going to be a NO GO Postcode even Santy will not be able to use


  • #377
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Colonel Sanders wrote: »
    I heard this. His whole justification for the introduction seemed to be that other countries have them

    Sounds like the same argument that brought us our inexpensive and thoroughly worthwhile eVoting system.....

    ....oh, hang on......


  • #378
    ninty9er
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,366 ✭✭✭ninty9er


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Sounds like the same argument that brought us our inexpensive and thoroughly worthwhile eVoting system.....

    ....oh, hang on......
    I agree on this one. If I'm getting something by post I can handle a 2-3 day delivery time, it's not as if this can be improved upon unless postmen are going to start deliveries as soon as they empty postboxes.


  • #379
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    ninty9er wrote: »
    I agree on this one. If I'm getting something by post I can handle a 2-3 day delivery time, it's not as if this can be improved upon unless postmen are going to start deliveries as soon as they empty postboxes.
    Ah but you're forgetting that it's more than just your local postie who'll benefit from this. Other delivery drivers, taxis, and so forth.

    There are also lots of issues in rural areas where there are 3 or 4 "Paddy Wallace"s in an area and the post is simply addressed to "Paddy Wallace, Gort, Co. Wexford" in the expectation that the right guy will get it.
    The local postie knows from experience who you are and where you live, but his replacement has no idea that they mean Paddy Wallace Snr from the east of the valley instead of Paddy Wallace who lives beside the shop.

    Or duplicate town names. A well-known poster here encountered that issue when he received a phone call about a package he was expecting, asking where he was to collect it, only to find out that the delivery driver was in a town 100 miles away which just happened to have the same name as the town he was in.

    And the king of them all: Sat Nav. So instead of having to give your address of "Rosehall", Ballinashee, Gort, Co. Wexford, "Now, when you get into Gort, take a right, drive 3 miles. If you hit a house with blue stone walls, you've gone too far....".
    Instead all you do is give your postcode of WX15023 and the Sat Nav takes whoever within 20m (or whatever) of your house.

    €40m is pittance for a system that's well overdue. Though I'm disappointed that they're not using a GPS-coordinates algorithm system that can give you a postcode which maps to within 2m of your house. That would have more expense though I suppose because then the postman needs a handheld to find the exact houses, as opposed to a postcode which takes him to the right street. It can always be added on later - dotted notation onto the end of the code. So WX15023.13, for example.


  • #380
    Alcatel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Alcatel


    There's more to a postcode than your parcel finding the right door.

    In Ireland finding and preventing fruad, for example credit card fraud in card not present transactions (like internet shopping), is far more of a guessing game without a postal code system.

    Quantification, of anything from area to performance, is not something we're very strong with in Ireland. That starts in the 'ah shure, why do we need it?' discussion. All I know is, having worked abroad, countries that do measure everything - from postcodes to services - and puts it all together tend to be better organised and run than Ireland. As an observation in general, pertaining to this specific discussion.


  • #381
    lol_leo
    Registered Users Posts: 60 ✭✭lol_leo


    I really cant see why people would object to a postcode system. I can only imagine that those that object have not lived outside the country and know no better. I suppose the same people see no value in good public transport, health care etc... and would just prefer a few % knocked of their tax bill.


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  • #382
    Alcatel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Alcatel


    lol_leo wrote: »
    I really cant see why people would object to a postcode system. I can only imagine that those that object have not lived outside the country and know no better. I suppose the same people see no value in good public transport, health care etc... and would just prefer a few % knocked of their tax bill.
    It'd cost 40m by the sounds of it. Hardly bank breaking.


  • #383
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    seamus wrote: »
    €40m is pittance for a system that's well overdue. Though I'm disappointed that they're not using a GPS-coordinates algorithm system that can give you a postcode which maps to within 2m of your house.
    Have details been published of the proposed system, and its resolution/accuracy?


  • #384
    vwphotography
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6 ✭vwphotography


    ive read most of the above - other than to avoid junk mail why do you want a post code. system seems to work fine. maybe im just thick.


  • #385
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Have details been published of the proposed system, and its resolution/accuracy?
    No, I'm actually just guessing based on what I've been reading. I'd be surprised though if they implemented something which brought you to the kerb of each house. In Ireland though that's the ideal because we have so much housing which isn't exactly part of any distinct area.


  • #386
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    vwphotography wrote: »
    ive read most of the above - other than to avoid junk mail why do you want a post code. system seems to work fine. maybe im just thick.
    Or maybe you've never been lying on the floor, clutching your chest in agony while someone tries to explain to the ambulance crew where your rural house is.
    seamus wrote: »
    No, I'm actually just guessing based on what I've been reading. I'd be surprised though if they implemented something which brought you to the kerb of each house. In Ireland though that's the ideal because we have so much housing which isn't exactly part of any distinct area.
    I'd be surprised about that too, because in the long run it would be the most useful and cost-effective approach. Which means it ain't gonna happen.


  • #387
    vwphotography
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6 ✭vwphotography


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Or maybe you've never been lying on the floor, clutching your chest in agony while someone tries to explain to the ambulance crew where your rural house is.

    I'd be surprised about that too, because in the long run it would be the most useful and cost-effective approach. Which means it ain't gonna happen.

    good point


  • #388
    goudystout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭goudystout


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Or maybe you've never been lying on the floor, clutching your chest in agony while someone tries to explain to the ambulance crew where your rural house is.

    I'd be surprised about that too, because in the long run it would be the most useful and cost-effective approach. Which means it ain't gonna happen.


    I am sorry to say that the resolution has been published - it is on the record of Dail and Seanad and on Dept. Of Communications website - and it is only to townland level in non urban areas and 40-50 properties covered by one code as the general spec.

    So if anyone is expecting to find individual houses with this new code - you are mistaken and Eamonn Ryan is also on record as saying that it cannot be used on GPS for Data Protection resaons. It is also for the same reasons that the code will not distinguish one "Paddy Wallace" from another as "seamus" mentioned in an earlier post...

    So does anyone no what the €40 million that is about to be spent is for?..... one of the advantages quoted on the official report is "improved direct mail services" (Junk Mail) and their is no mention of benefits to property owners or buinesses....


  • #389
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    goudystout wrote: »
    Eamonn Ryan is also on record as saying that it cannot be used on GPS for Data Protection resaons.

    Taking the piss, can't they do anything right? :(


  • #390
    Alcatel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭Alcatel


    So does anyone no what the €40 million that is about to be spent is for?..... one of the advantages quoted on the official report is "improved direct mail services" (Junk Mail) and their is no mention of benefits to property owners or buinesses....
    Delivery of services and fraud protection, being two.

    Do most other major countries have postcodes for the craic?


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  • #391
    goudystout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭goudystout


    Alcatel wrote: »
    Delivery of services and fraud protection, being two.

    Do most other major countries have postcodes for the craic?

    We should have postcodes too i agree, but surely they should be able to lead Emergency services to a house using a GPS and the same for couriers delivering goods ordered off the web anywhere in the country and allow tourists find tourist features which may be outside cities...

    It seems to me that there is not much point in introducing a postcode system after 5 years of consultants' reports which has the same addressing capability as an Irish townland i.e. you will just have to write a 6 character code instead of the townland name and no other additional benefits??:confused:


  • #392
    brianwalshcork
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 607 ✭✭✭brianwalshcork


    goudystout wrote: »
    We should have postcodes too i agree, but surely they should be able to lead Emergency services to a house using a GPS and the same for couriers delivering goods ordered off the web anywhere in the country and allow tourists find tourist features which may be outside cities...

    It seems to me that there is not much point in introducing a postcode system after 5 years of consultants' reports which has the same addressing capability as an Irish townland i.e. you will just have to write a 6 character code instead of the townland name and no other additional benefits??:confused:

    +1, what a waste of time.

    Ah well, in a couple of years, we can look forward to an expensive investigation into why the implentation of the postcode system v1.0 failed and why uptake was so poor - then wait another couple of years for v2.0, which will come with free backward compatibility headaches.

    WTF?? Is this the best the consultants could come up with after 5 years? They should have started a boards thread, and would have it thrashed out in a week.


  • #393
    lol_leo
    Registered Users Posts: 60 ✭✭lol_leo


    Where can I see the current Government proposals?

    Surely we can draw on the experiences of those that have gone before us to come up with the best system possible or as someone else mentioned are we going to reinvent the wheel...at a cost!


  • #394
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    goudystout wrote: »
    Eamonn Ryan is also on record as saying that it cannot be used on GPS for Data Protection resaons.
    I'm sorry, but that has to be a misquote or something that was misheard.

    An post already maintain a proprietary postcode system of their own for locating houses and townlands. They charge massive money for access to this system. Any company who is willing to pay, gets access. So I don't see how data protection comes into play here. Addresses nor any form of post code are not private personal information.

    It's probably more likely that the government is going to take the idiot decision and make the post code system private and charge through the nose for a licence to access it. This is why it can't be opened up for GPS use unless the GPS user (not the manufacturer) is willing to pay €100,000 for every post code in Dublin and €500,000 for every postcode in the country.


  • #395
    goudystout
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭goudystout


    seamus wrote: »
    I'm sorry, but that has to be a misquote or something that was misheard.

    26 June 2006
    2/22/10

    Mr John Tierney
    Chairman
    National Postcodes Project Board
    POSTCODES AND DATA PROTECTION
    Dear John
    Following my presentation to the Board last April, I have recently had discussions with the Board’s consultants on the privacy/data protection implications of various postcodes options which are under consideration.
    I very much welcome the opportunity to have these exchanges at this stage. My approach is to help the Board to arrive at a set of proposals which meet the public good objectives of the postcodes project without giving rise to privacy/data protection issues.
    I have been asked to put in writing for the Board some of the key points that were raised in our discussions. I am happy to do so in this letter.
    BACKGROUND
    Personal privacy is important to Irish people. This was confirmed in a survey which this Office carried out last year, where it came second only to crime prevention in its relative importance to individuals.
    Data Protection legislation is part of the overall legal framework in Ireland (and the EU) for the protection of personal privacy. The central theme of data protection legislation is that the individual, as part of their right to privacy, should control the use of information that is personal to them.
    “Personal data” is defined in our legislation as data relating to a living individual who is or can be identified either from the data or from the data in conjunction with other information that is in, or is likely to come into, the possession of the data controller (a person who, either alone or with others, controls the contents and use of personal data). This definition of “personal data” is very broad and mirrors a similar broad definition in the EU Data Privacy Directive. Its precise meaning has to be considered in context and is not subject to any hard-and-fast rules.
    In the Irish context, a person’s home address is an important part of their identity. In the case of a single-occupancy, owner-occupied dwelling, it is, in practice, a unique identifier. In the case of a family home, it typically identifies a small group of related individuals.
    I suggest therefore that, for the purposes of postcodes planning, a single-unit residential address should be considered as being part of the “personal data” of the occupant(s). This would not apply to a commercial address. Neither would it apply to a typical apartment blockface containing many individual residential units.
    POSTCODE MODELS
    ‘One-to-One’ Model
    Based on the considerations above, a postcode model which provided, in most cases, a 1 to 1 match between a postcode and a dwelling would raise significant privacy/data protection issues. It is a model I would have serious reservations about, if it were to be put forward as a formal policy proposal. In expressing such reservations, I would have regard to issues such as the potential for ready identification of sensitive information about individuals where postcodes were used for purposes other than mail delivery. Examples could include use of postcodes to identify patterns of crime or illness.
    Area Model
    A postcode model that matched a postcode (with geo-location coordinates) to an area normally including say 20 – 50 dwellings should not give rise to privacy/data protection issues. Such an area could be a street, a district etc. It would not normally be possible to identify an individual from such a postcode without significant additional details. The risk to privacy therefore would be proportionate to what I assume are the public good aspects associated with a postcodes model.
    I understand that, in the case of sparsely populated areas, it might be difficult to avoid a situation where a postcode area would in practice include only a small number of residential dwellings. Provided planning were based on keeping such cases to a minimum, I would also see this as a proportionate solution.
    POSTCODE DATABASE
    For the reasons outlined above, a public database of one-to-one postcodes would, in my opinion, give rise to serious privacy/data protection issues. Such issues should not arise in relation to a public database of area postcodes (with geo-location coordinates) typically covering 20-50 individual but unspecified addresses.
    Such a public database of area postcodes would facilitate existing holders of customer databases (utilities, financial institutions, public authorities etc) who wished to apply the postcodes to these databases. It could also be available more generally (e.g. on a website) as a ‘look-up’ facility to allow individuals to enter an address known to them and be provided with the corresponding postcode. It would not be desirable that the public database be designed on an individual address basis, but rather on a street, district etc basis.
    I have been asked to comment specifically on a scenario where a comprehensive national database, containing the addresses and geo-coordinates of individual properties, was developed under the aegis of a Postcode Authority on the basis that the database was not publicly available. My answer from a data protection/privacy perspective is that the manner in which such a database was developed, and the conditions of its use, should preferably be set out in law. This would facilitate a full debate on the public good that would be served by such a comprehensive database and the degree to which this would outweigh concerns about the threat to privacy that could result.
    I should add, for the sake of completeness, that data protection issues only arise where the individual is not in control of the use etc of their personal data. If an individual were to consent to their address being put on a public database, in the full knowledge of how such a database would be used, then data protection/privacy issues would not arise.
    I hope this information is helpful. I would be very happy to engage further with the Board if that would be helpful.

    Yours sincerely

    Billy Hawkes
    Data Protection Commissioner
    (note the highlighted bit above - opostcodes can contain up to 50 properties nut the addresses of those properties are to have "unspecified addresses" - this means that nobody will know what addresses are in the postcode ..........confused??? - so will the courier be when he is trying to deliver your new google phone!!!)

    Read the full report here

    see para7.4.3 re paying An Post €37 million

    see para 3.3 bullet point 4 re adding a GPS coordinate to the code as an addition - this coordinate is to be the centre of the area of the code - i.e the centre of up to 50 properties - in non urban areas this could be the centre of a townland - probably in the middle of a field somewhere and absolutely of no benfit for GPS navigation. The coordinate will take a SatNav to the centre of up to 50 houses and then you have to work out which one is the one you want - i.e. the same as putting a townland name into your satnav now - that is of cousre if the SatNav manuafturers will bother paying the Dept of Communications for supporting the postcode in the first place.

    see page 5-3 re the benefits to the CSO for statistics - a Small Area Code has already been created by the OSI and NUIM for Statistical Analysis instead of DED's and their recommendation that areas for statistics should not contain any less that 65 properties for privacy reasons and they recommend an additional GPS based postcode for navigation.

    see para 7.4.1 re the proposed postcode being unable to solve the non unique addressing problem in Ireland which was one of the stated aims of the system to solve and it further goes on to say that the only way to solve this is to add road names and properties in non urban areas - thereby changing people's addresses and this also was clearly stated as something to be avoided in implementing the code.

    See page D-1 where it states that in non urban areas a single postcode will cover a complete townland except in ceratin minimum circumstances - it seems to have been forgotten that 40% of our population lives in townland addressed areas. This therefore proposes to cover every property in a single townland with the same postcode - i.e. in the address the townland could then be omitted in favour of a six character code. Seems that they have taken no guidance from what happened in Northern Ireland since they introduced the Royal Mail Code there in the 70's and are trying to recover from it now - see here

    It is clear that we are now to have a postcode which was designed on the single opinion of a Data Commissioner above.. even though the Geodirectory, the telephone book, the register of electors and the UK postcode already do without any repercussions what he says breaches EU privacy and data proetction laws - seems like a classic case of a second opinion would have been useful if it suited politically .........and perhaps it didn't suit as the Data Commissioner's opinion might have kept An Post onboard as new competition arriving with the deregualtion of the postal market would gain no advantage from the resulting postcode - this and a planned €37 million payment of course.

    And then the Minister stood up in the Seanad and quoted a postcode with 10-20 houses, 20-40 properties and 20-50 properties - smoke screens why can't he just state the facts? (there is a difference between houses and properties and using houses as the reference allows a smaller figure to be quoted. However, if you are delivering mail you have to find the right one amongst all properties not just houses)

    He also talked about developing a "data system" that is just as effective as GPS - so the consultants to the Minister for Communications in Ireland has developed an alternative to GPS - just as good and capable of guiding an ambulance to a field in the centre of a townland anywhere in Ireland - useful new technology to take over from GPS on the global markets!!!! (The not-so-smart economy perhaps)

    Then he refers to the time taken to implement the code as being associated with "allocating addresses to houses" which seems to suggest putting names on roads and numbers on properties in rural areas. You can spot all the contradictions and the lack of understanding in the exchanges here and not to mention the first official mention of an alternative to GPS - currently known as a "Data System" - and which does not breach people's privacy rights.

    So now do you believe that what we are going to get as a postcode is worth 5 years of consultants reports and a minimum of €15 million to implement plus the €37 million peace offering to An Post???

    Don't forget that in 2006 after the report referred to here, the then Minister stated that the recommended Postcode would be implemented by Jan 2008. In September last Year, Eamon Ryan said that it would be in place by 2011. But nothing has happend since and the latest statement was by the end of 2011 - if it happened then it would only be almost 4 years late!!!!

    Thought people should see the full picture...............too much misinformed speculation!!!!


  • #396
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,814 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Billy Hawkes is mistaken in fact, law and logic. In fact, not having a postcode will not avoid houses having unique addresses. If you give houses numbers and streets names you are making addresses unique. In law, having a unique code for every house would not per se result in a breach of data protection principles in and of itself. In logic, it does not follow that because a house forms part of a person's identity, that therefore it would be a breach of privacy to uniquely identify that house.


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  • #397
    bangersandmash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 686 ✭✭✭bangersandmash


    jaffa20 wrote: »
    is it ever gonna happpen:confused: How old is this thread now. Shows how the government don't put a lot of effort into enforcing things other than tax, and new laws on drinking or driving.
    Funny you should say that. Interesting post here speculating that the main motivating reason for the government to introduce a new post code system may be to facilitate the introduction of a site valuation tax. Since the current government is fond of methods for raising tax that are couched in altruism, this idea doesn't sound implausible.

    http://www.mortgagebrokers.ie/blog/index.php/2010/01/04/postcodes-a-prelude-to-property-tax/


  • #398
    lol_leo
    Registered Users Posts: 60 ✭✭lol_leo


    Just got a call off a courier this morning wanting to know what house I live in. Its the same story every time...I will end up standing outside on the road waiting for him. I can imagine the mobile phone companies are quite happy to leave things as they are.


  • #399
    byrnefm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 889 ✭✭✭byrnefm


    I think it will be a lot easier when trying to give information over the phone or even through online ordering with postcodes - in the UK, all you have to usually do is give your house number and post code and the rest of the information gets filled in automatically for you.

    So many times I have received incorrectly addressed post because either of a misspelled address or leaving out something small like the town name!

    My sister lived in Carlow many years ago and there were THREE number 7's on the same street. I can't remember how they were each individually addressed on numbers but one I heard was "No. 7 (beside the butcher's)"!


  • #400
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    Billy Hawkes is mistaken in fact, law and logic. In fact, not having a postcode will not avoid houses having unique addresses. If you give houses numbers and streets names you are making addresses unique. In law, having a unique code for every house would not per se result in a breach of data protection principles in and of itself. In logic, it does not follow that because a house forms part of a person's identity, that therefore it would be a breach of privacy to uniquely identify that house.

    The Office of the Data Protection Commissioner is known to take the strictest possible meaning of everything. :)


  • #401
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    monument wrote: »
    The Office of the Data Protection Commissioner is known to take the strictest possible meaning of everything. :)

    lol you sure about that.:pac:


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