Government introduces Postcodes in Ireland..?

rinnin

"Dempsey announces programme to introduce postcodes in Ireland by 1st January 2008"
See the article at:
http://www.dcmnr.gov.ie/Press+Releases/Dempsey+announces+programme+to+introduce+postcodes+in+Ireland+by+1st+January+2008.htm

So Mr Dempsey,
Where the hell are they?! :mad:
Its absolutely rediculous that we dont have them here. If it was feckin Africa or something I'd understand but trying to order anything online or use Sat Nav or anything that a modern society takes for granted is a pain in the hoo ha.
What do people think about this?
Is there any decent reason Ireland shouldnt have postcodes?

Tails142

government plans for post codes being developed by an post were held back by complaints and hold ups, generally some people are against it as they feel that it would be easier to distinguish who lives in **** holes and charge them higher insurance etc.

A private firm has taken the lead and developed their own system

http://www.gpsireland.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=47&Itemid=79

an post's was based on easting and northings taken from map grid references and the post codes were long.

This system is based on letters and purports to position an address to 2m. Whether this system will take off is another question as its a private company so gps manufacturers and more than likely an post as well as other companies that want to use its systems will have to pay to incorporate them in their products - but developments are being made

Colonel Sanders

Tails142 wrote: »

some people are against it as they feel that it would be easier to distinguish who lives in **** holes and charge them higher insurance etc.

Hibernian already use geo coding and claim to rate at an individual address level, other comapnies will surely follow suit so the people complaining for this purpose would want to dig their heads out of the sand.

themarcus

rinnin wrote: »

Its absolutely rediculous that we dont have them here. If it was feckin Africa or something I'd understand but trying to order anything online or use Sat Nav or anything that a modern society takes for granted is a pain in the hoo ha

Not 100% sure, but I think most African countries actually do have postal codes!

Totally agree with you though, it's ridiculous we don't have them.......
Though I'm not sure how anything would be better cos of them!

rinnin

themarcus wrote: »

Though I'm not sure how anything would be better cos of them!

Huh? Dont know how anything would be better?

From the press release dated 23 May 2005:

The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Noel Dempsey T.D., has today announced that postcodes will be introduced in Ireland by 1st January 2008.

“We are one of the only developed countries in the world that doesn’t have a postcode. When I took office I asked my officials to set up an expert Working Group to undertake a full examination of the issue and to report back to me,” said Minister Dempsey.

“The Working Group identified substantial benefits to be gained by the introduction of a postcode, not just to improve the quality of postal services but also to facilitate public utilities and business in accurately identifying their customers. In particular, it is planned to overcome the problem of identifying the estimated 40% of addresses in Ireland that are not unique,” said Minister Dempsey.

“A postcode is a vital piece of infrastructure for a modern developed economy. Without an effective postcode in Ireland, there is a real danger that not only postal operators, but also consumers, business and public services will be at a disadvantage compared to our EU partners. This Fianna Fáil led Government is committed to redressing this situation,” he added.

To advance the project, the Minister will shortly appoint a National Postcode Project Management Board, which will represent stakeholders. The Minister has asked the Chairperson of ComReg, Isolde Goggin, to appoint Project Managers with the necessary technical expertise to design a suitable postcode and to subject it to a full cost benefit analysis. The Project Managers will report to the Project Board.

Work on the design of the project, which is expected to take about six months to complete, will get underway following a tendering process to select the Project Managers.

If Mr. Dempsey actually believed what he was talking about and actually gave a damn, its quite possible we'd have them today and not be the laughing stock of the world.

Fratton Fred

how hard exactly can it be to create a postcode system, especially considering all our EU partners have them and Ireland's nearest neighbour has a very simple and very effective system which could be easliy copied.

No doubt the government is paying someone a fortune to re-invent the wheel.

luckat

If you were really impassioned about it, I suppose you could start using them unilaterally. It used to be a standard in An Post that someone would address a letter by longitude and latitude and it would be calmly delivered.

rinnin

luckat wrote: »

If you were really impassioned about it, I suppose you could start using them unilaterally. It used to be a standard in An Post that someone would address a letter by longitude and latitude and it would be calmly delivered.

Wow. That would be weird. So if you just click on an address in Google Earth & write down their coordinates and it would get there?.
So to send a letter to Aras an Uachtaran youd only have to address it to:
53°21′35″N 6°19′03″W ?

rinnin

I wish someone would ring Joe Duffy or Gerry Ryan or someone and get them so see what the story is. (I would but I'm in college in the UK)

flogen

If I'm not mistaken An Post are against the introduction of postcodes in Ireland - they say they're unnecessary as technology has surpassed the need for them.

Basically when they say "technology" they're referring to their technology, that can automatically read whole addresses and doesn't need the code at the end to know the desired location of a package.

They obviously don't give two shíts about private mail and courier operations, ambulance services or the individual using his/her GPS system to name but a few.

Dave!

rinnin wrote: »

If Mr. Dempsey actually believed what he was talking about and actually gave a damn, its quite possible we'd have them today and not be the laughing stock of the world.

Yeah, I can just hear the sniggers at the UN General Assembly every time Ireland is mentioned

"Stupid paddies don't even have postal codes, lol!"

Seriously though, if it's likely to benefit the country, get the lead out.

Firetrap

From what I've been told, An Post isn't exactly one of the most progressive or efficient organisations in the world. I bet they're opposed to postcodes because it would involve changes in work practices for them. And of course, that's all that matters at the end of the day.

LostinBlanch

Well post codes could mean that people are going to get more junk mail. Anything that means that I get less crap through my door is ok by me.

Red Alert

Surely their equipment can read postcodes and will need less manual help doing so. I think it is about time we had them and had the required privacy legislation to keep bulk marketers at bay under pain of stiff penalties.

Oilrig

Post Codes and Spam Letters are two different issues.

Post Codes are the way to go IMHO, definitive location. Makes the logistics easy.

Spam Mail is the postal provider (An Post) making money as a "sideline" As long as there is an opt out on being included in these I see no problem. The opt out should be all inclusive, ie all mailshots. That means restrictions on An Post selling our details to private companies who do their own mailshots.

chipclub

flogen wrote: »

If I'm not mistaken An Post are against the introduction of postcodes in Ireland - they say they're unnecessary as technology has surpassed the need for them.

Basically when they say "technology" they're referring to their technology, that can automatically read whole addresses and doesn't need the code at the end to know the desired location of a package.

They obviously don't give two shíts about private mail and courier operations, ambulance services or the individual using his/her GPS system to name but a few.

Very good for An Post. Now if they can use this technology to differentiate my address in the arsehole of Meath from the other 50 identical addresses in the same townland then that would be just super. At the moment I get my mail because the postman knows the name of each individual householder so my name is a very key thing in the address. Couriers are very difficult. The only way I can get something delivered is to talk to the driver and give exact instructions - "third house on the left past the big tree". God forbid if I ever need an emergency service. I don't fancy trying to direct an amulance to the house as I gasp my last breath. There must be hundreds of thousands of addresses around the country in the same situation.

Victor

Oilrig wrote: »

Spam Mail is the postal provider (An Post) making money as a "sideline" As long as there is an opt out on being included in these I see no problem. The opt out should be all inclusive, ie all mailshots. That means restrictions on An Post selling our details to private companies who do their own mailshots.

Spammers have many ways of getting your address without the post company selling your details.

Spammers like post codes as it means they can tailor their mail shots more easily.

simu

rinnin wrote: »

If Mr. Dempsey actually believed what he was talking about and actually gave a damn, its quite possible we'd have them today and not be the laughing stock of the world.

I thought we'd recovered enough from our "post-colonial inferiority complex" not to care anymore what the rest of the world thinks? The Irish way or the (vastly over budget and expected timeframe) highway.

Seriously, we seem to do fine without them and we're certainly better off with less not more junkmail. Isn't it nice to live in a country where the postman nearly knows your name!

Pye

I don't want a post code. =(

I don't see how we're a "laughing stock" without post codes. I've never had trouble with them not being present apart from yahoo not letting me sign up but that was easily fixed. Had a quite few things delivered by courier and all things ordered on-line arrived here problem free.

For the record An Post does a better job than Royal Mail. I was very happy with the time it took for my Christmas post to the states to arrive as opposed to when sending from the UK.

RedPlanet

I've lived in many places around the country and have never had a postcode (bar when i was living in Dublin), yet never had trouble receiving post.
Insofar as people with identical addresses, well if they are aware of that fact than why not change something about their address, like include the name of the house or add a number?
I bet the post still comes through.

rinnin

Jesus Christ! Its 2008 people! Get with the times.

oscarBravo

I keep reading things like "I don't need a postcode, I always get my post."

Postcodes are not about post - it's great for An Post that the postman knows where you live, but not everything is delivered by An Post.

I can relate to chipclub's post above, having previously lived out in the country, but now that I live in a town, I still have to explain to couriers how to find my house.

rinnin

Another example to all the conservatives afraid of change,
Just got an email from a guy in the states. Looked at his zip code in the address below his signature. Went to google maps. Typed in 63146 and BAM got his exact location.
Someone wanted to buy something from me the other day and instead of asking where they're coming from, telling them which road to take, which turn etc etc just gave them my postcode here in the UK & they rang me when they were outside my door.
Type M14 5QD into Google Maps & you'll see where I am then you can see all the local shops, restaurants, petrol stations, post offices etc etc around this postcode.
Now imagine trying to do that with an address like "The Birches", Carrickmacross, Co. Monaghan.

gurramok

So its An Post's monopoly on post that is holding the whole thing up of moving with the times.
Can the Competition Authority or the EU do anything about this, unfair competition with An Post having unfair advantage over other companies with their own system which they do not share?

Flukey

We have post codes. They're called addresses!!!! We don't really need much more than that in a country of our size. The odd location here and there might need a better addressing system, but the vast majority of addresses are more than sufficient, when things are properly addressed.

flogen

chipclub wrote: »

Very good for An Post. Now if they can use this technology to differentiate my address in the arsehole of Meath from the other 50 identical addresses in the same townland then that would be just super. At the moment I get my mail because the postman knows the name of each individual householder so my name is a very key thing in the address. Couriers are very difficult. The only way I can get something delivered is to talk to the driver and give exact instructions - "third house on the left past the big tree". God forbid if I ever need an emergency service. I don't fancy trying to direct an amulance to the house as I gasp my last breath. There must be hundreds of thousands of addresses around the country in the same situation.

Indeed - even here in Dublin we've had letters intended for us (but with the wrong address) delivered here because the postman knew the names of people in each house.

At least a proper postcode system would minimise the dependency on the local posty's knowledge-base.

Sponge Bob

oscarBravo wrote: »

I still have to explain to couriers how to find my house.

I have my GPS Long and Lat co ordinates stored to 6 decimal pints in my mobile. I just send him my business card

This gets him within 1m of the front door unless he is a really thick **** and with no Satnav.

I like this private effort to do what Dempsey was always too thick to sort out...ironically he is minister for Transport now .

Sponge Bob likes GPS Ireland as long as that list is open source or creative commons at worst !

rinnin

Flukey wrote: »

We have post codes. They're called addresses!!!! We don't really need much more than that in a country of our size. The odd location here and there might need a better addressing system, but the vast majority of addresses are more than sufficient, when things are properly addressed.

This doesnt even deserve a response.

oscarBravo

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I have my GPS Long and Lat co ordinates stored to 6 decimal pints in my mobile. I just send him my business card

WGS84 or IG?

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I like this private effort to do what Dempsey was always too thick to sort out...ironically he is minister for Transport now .

Sponge Bob likes GPS Ireland as long as that list is open source or creative commons at worst !

I've asked Gary about that - "yes but not just yet."

rlogue

Flukey wrote: »

We have post codes. They're called addresses!!!! We don't really need much more than that in a country of our size. The odd location here and there might need a better addressing system, but the vast majority of addresses are more than sufficient, when things are properly addressed.

You don't get it do you Flukey??

It's very much in An Post's interests NOT to have a universal post code in Ireland, because without one An Post's competitors do not have the same advantage that An Post has - namely the local knowledge of the An Post postmen.

With a universal post code it then becomes possible to tie a postcode to a specific location and that means that GPS systems and other geographical database systems can pinpoint specific locations without the need to guess.

Right now the only people benefitting from no postcodes in Ireland are An Post and the sort of people who think it's great that we are behind the times...

gurramok

rlogue wrote: »

You don't get it do you Flukey??
Right now the only people benefitting from no postcodes in Ireland are An Post and the sort of people who think it's great that we are behind the times...

Or those that don't want to be found

rlogue

I have a satnav in front of me. I am trying to use the satnav to locate my grandmother's old house in Donegal.

Now I know the address was "Three Trees", Tromaty, Quigley's Point, Co. Donegal. And you know what? I can't find it. If I had a street name and a house number that's not a problem. But I don't have a street name and a house number!!!

And without a postcode the best I can hope for with the satnav is to find the nearest village and ask directions. Now tell me we don't need postcodes! :mad:

Flukey

As has been said in this thread, our postmen, even with local knowledge can still deliver letters incorrectly. Whatever is written on the envelope, with or without a postcode it is down to the postman to put it through and a door, and he can still put it through the wrong one. It'll help in some areas, but I still maintain that the vast majority of our addresses, when written fully, are sufficient to get it to its destination, whether it is a guy who has been on the route for years, or a guy doing his first day on the job in an area he hardly knows.

The postal service has bigger issues to sort out, like why you have to post a letter nearly a month in advance to get it to arrive in time for Christmas in some parts of the world. Even allowing for increased volumes and distances, it should never take more than a week to 10 days. A person can get from just about any major town or city in the world to almost any other in less than 48 hours, so 10 days should do it for a postal item, even in December. Even in regular times of the year it is hard to believe when you order something as simple as a magazine off a company in America that they'll tell you that it will take up to 6 weeks for it to arrive!!! In this day and age that it is crazy, and postcodes are not the issue there.

rlogue

You're still missing the point - the introduction of a universal postcode allows for the rapid sorting of mail as well as a common geographical indicator of a specific house or district without the need to know the longitude and latitude of a location.

An Post already have an internal postcode system that they are not sharing with anyone, not the public or competitors.

When we finally do introduce a universal postcode we will be able to introduce open competition to postal deliveries and enable GPS systems to find specific addresses in rural districts.

What's so wrong with that?

Firetrap

Yes, it's an anti-competitive measure. That, and the Dickensian practices in An Post. If we had postcodes, it would help the likes of ambulances, the fire brigade etc. find houses more quickly in an emergency.

Ireland's also got a higher incidence of credit card fraud, partly because of the lack of postcodes. I heard this from someone who's in the know.

OTK

rlogue wrote: »

An Post already have an internal postcode system that they are not sharing with anyone, not the public or competitors.

They offer a geocoding product to anyone who wants it.
http://www.geodirectory.ie/
so I think making a postcode system based on this would be trivial. Just map a unique code to each address.

I guess this should be done by an independent body rather than An Post

seamus

An post already have their own post code system, as pointed out.

They charge other companies stupid money for access to what is a simple database and it brings in significant revenue. This coupled with the competition aspect mentioned is why they don't want to see a public post codes database.

dRNk SAnTA

There is no decent argument against postcodes, they should be brought in ASAP. With postcodes google maps becomes absolutely brilliant, for one thing.

rlogue

Eamon Ryan had better watch out as his credibility as a minister will be gone if he doesn't take action on this issue. Already he appears to be stalling on Digital TV policy and he appears to have done nothing about getting the long-promised RTE overseas satellite service up and running.

These are all issues that he had plenty to say about when he was an opposition TD - but now he's in government with the supposed ability to deliver on promises made before the election!

Sponge Bob

oscarBravo wrote: »

WGS84 or IG?

WGS84 ( IIRC ) is the standard behind the sort of M123456 T123456 refs you get on maps such as the discovery series and has been superceded by something more granular in the past 5 years .

I use simple long and lat , eg 53.222222N and 9.1111111W

( which by the way is Noel Dempseys own holiday homes co-ordinates :cool: )

Firetrap

IG is Irish National Grid. It's not used so much anymore. The Ordnance Survey has moved its digital mapping over to a co-ordinate system which is GPS compatible.

ninty9er

rlogue wrote: »

You're still missing the point - the introduction of a universal postcode allows for the rapid sorting of mail as well as a common geographical indicator of a specific house or district without the need to know the longitude and latitude of a location.

Postcodes code AREAS. Therefore if there are 23 Ryan families in the AREA, a postcode is still fu<k all good.

The system we have works. Lat and long will get an ambulance to you regardless of whether you have a psotcode or not.

I can post a letter in Limerick at 4pm tomorrow, it will be in Cork by 8 and can be on the intended recipients desk in Dublin by 12pm Tuesday: That's less than 24 hours, God forbid it should be delayed it could be Wednesday before he gets it. Whoop-dee-fu<king-do:rolleyes::rolleyes:

oscarBravo

ninty9er wrote: »

Postcodes code AREAS. Therefore if there are 23 Ryan families in the AREA, a postcode is still fu<k all good.

That depends on how the postcode is implemented. Somewhere like Denmark, a postcode pretty much identifies a post office, and not much more. In the UK, I can use a postcode to satnav to my brother's street, and recognise the front door from there. If the system is designed to solve the actual problem - which, by and large, isn't postal delivery in this country - it will work.

ninty9er wrote: »

The system we have works. Lat and long will get an ambulance to you regardless of whether you have a psotcode or not.

Which do you think it's easier to remember when calling an ambulance: "53°47.982N 9°30.162W" or "K3W 1BDY"? The latter is the same location as the former, using the GPS Ireland postcode system referenced earlier in the thread.

ninty9er wrote: »

I can post a letter in Limerick at 4pm tomorrow, it will be in Cork by 8 and can be on the intended recipients desk in Dublin by 12pm Tuesday: That's less than 24 hours, God forbid it should be delayed it could be Wednesday before he gets it. Whoop-dee-fu<king-do:rolleyes::rolleyes:

This isn't about post. (I'm pretty sure I said that already.)

Nevyn

ninty9er wrote: »

I can post a letter in Limerick at 4pm tomorrow, it will be in Cork by 8 and can be on the intended recipients desk in Dublin by 12pm Tuesday: That's less than 24 hours, God forbid it should be delayed it could be Wednesday before he gets it. Whoop-dee-fu<king-do:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Thats nice, but it depends on how big the area is and what the denisty of population is like.
My drs office which is a 15 mins walk walk posted me a letter and it took 8 days to get here, so really places like d24 and d15 do need better postcodes.

Moriarty

Gary Delaney's post has been deleted because it's pretty much commercial spam. Gary, if you want to participate here you're welcome to but please don't try to turn it into another advertising channel.

Fairlead

You referrred to GPS Ireland's Proposed Post Code System based on Irish Grid - or more correctly - the new Irish Transverse Mercator Grid. This system is now under test on a Garmin Nuvi 760 SatNav and will shortly be available in conjunction with a web map service for anyone to get their Post Code/s.

I am not permitted to explain it in full here so please follow this link to see a full explanation and details on GPS Ireland's website: http://www.gpsireland.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=47&Itemid=79

or feel free to contact me on my e-mail - gary@gpsireland.ie

Pathfinder

ninty9er wrote: »

Postcodes code AREAS. Therefore if there are 23 Ryan families in the AREA, a postcode is still fu<k all good.

The system we have works. Lat and long will get an ambulance to you regardless of whether you have a psotcode or not.

I can post a letter in Limerick at 4pm tomorrow, it will be in Cork by 8 and can be on the intended recipients desk in Dublin by 12pm Tuesday: That's less than 24 hours, God forbid it should be delayed it could be Wednesday before he gets it. Whoop-dee-fu<king-do:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Post codes actually code about 8 houses with one code not an area, only the first part is the area

example


SW16 2BH

Sat navs work door to door with post codes.In rural areas its possible for each address to have a unique post code.

XJR

Frankly I don't see any great reason to do this. I mean how big is this country and how difficult is it to find your way around?

This has been on the agenda for a number of years and as far as I can see the only real reason to do this is as a precursor to opening up the postal market.

Pathfinder

XJR wrote: »

Frankly I don't see any great reason to do this. I mean how big is this country and how difficult is it to find your way around?

This has been on the agenda for a number of years and as far as I can see the only real reason to do this is as a precursor to opening up the postal market.

Very if you need to find an address in the country in the middle of nowhere you dont know.Especially at night, an individual post code means you could punch it into the sat nav and get to house you are going to no problem.

Is not rocket science.

XJR

Pathfinder wrote: »

Very if you need to find an address in the country in the middle of nowhere you dont know.

I'm not so sure how a postcode is going to help you in that instance.

I don't see that the introduction of technology for the sake of it is necessarily of any benefit, e-voting springs to mind. I wouldn't pin my hopes on this happening or working properly.

Just because the neighbours have it doesn't mean that we should. I'm quite happy without it and you know I don't get lost too often either.

Fairlead

Pathfinder you are correct! - However, what happens when a new road/street is added? - officialdom has to allocate a code and we wait whilst that happens - also even a code defining a 8 properties ( not consistent) does not necessarily get a vehicle to the right location to enter it - the entrance may be from another road with a different Post Code - I have personal experience of this only in January when I was in SW1!!! The system we propose defines the location of the Post Code as the access from the public road.

Also we need to Post Code properties in rural areas in Ireland - a much different proposition than in the UK because of the historical Parish and townland based system.

Finally Road construction site offices are put in place for up to 2 or three years - - they have a lot of things delivered by Post and Vehicle and unfortunately emergency vehicles have to find them from time to time - how to they get a Post code??? The system we propose supports this proposition....

A modern system for modern times and not necessarily related to delivering the mail - there are less Post Men trying to find addresses than there are vehicles and as always Ireland is a special case needing a special solution!!