soild fuel stove advise

mattcullen · 13-11-2009 7:34pm

Will keep an ye out for the chainsaws. Cheers for that.

David,

No the Liner comes in at €260 or so. Can I drop the liner through the pot without removing it so? (assuming it fits and I think it will by the look of the pot) and then seal it to the hanging pot?

By the way, any tips on whether to just render the back of the wall where the fireplace was or to use a special type of fireslab?

Looking forward to having the thing going now.

bauderline · 14-11-2009 10:07am

Folks,

Anyone any experiance of the Edilkamin insert stoves ? I am looking for quite a modern looking log burner and these appear to be well made qood quality units...

Best regards, Peter.

gsxr1 · 15-11-2009 1:52am

mrsuperdeal wrote: »

Flexi liner should only be used ,if you are willing to run it from the bottom of your chimney all the ways to the top,please do not buy 6-8 feet of it and stick it up the chimney ,what happens if you do this is ,(average existing chimneys can measure anything from 16 feet upto 24 feet) any soot and dirt from normal use and cleaning will fall between the flexi and the existing chinmey ,and if this goes on fire you will be in trouble( ask any firemen they know) .
1.Buy .5m ,90 degree and claypot adapter.normal cost €160
2,Buy .5m,90 degree and enough liner to go to top(€40-€50/m),flexi clamp(€25) and cowl(€25).
Get good advice on fitting it........
.........
look just get a pro if you can find one...

Wait a min.
Is a 90degree bend not the worst thing to use? plus the adaptor is not the best thing to use(even though I took the advise of salesman who misinformed me and used an adaptor)
Many of the agents and registered pros on here have condemned the method you have just suggested saying its a sure chimney fire starter

are you in the trade?

00jes · 18-11-2009 12:43pm

Does anyone know where i could purchase a stanley stove that wont cost the earth. I had a few quotes today for a stanley Erin non boiler in a black enammel. the prices ranged from €1350 to €2020. i feel like im getting ripped off. Any thoughts?

sooty_soupy · 18-11-2009 12:48pm

Why would you buy a chinese import stove and pay the earth. It is costing the earth (quite literally) to have scrap metal taken half way around the globe, resmelted....ie weakened..and formed into a new stove, only to find the pig iron it is made of is often what lets the stove down in weak construction and joints. Clearview, Charnwood, Jotul, Morso and perhaps a Hunter would be where we would be steering you.

Best regards

David

00jes · 18-11-2009 1:01pm

I have a stove at the moment but it is old and needs to come out. this stove is a matt black and has given of a funny smell when hot for a long time. i was told that if the stove was enammled then it will stop this from happening. is this true. what sort of cost should i be looking at for a 12 kilowatt stove enammle black

ttm · 18-11-2009 1:59pm

sooty_soupy wrote: »

Why would you buy a chinese import stove and pay the earth. It is costing the earth (quite literally) to have scrap metal taken half way around the globe, resmelted....ie weakened..and formed into a new stove, only to find the pig iron it is made of is often what lets the stove down in weak construction and joints. Clearview, Charnwood, Jotul, Morso and perhaps a Hunter would be where we would be steering you.

Best regards

David

Can you please prove your reoccurring statments? afaik NO ONE in Western Europe does any industrial scale casting so while many stoves are asembled in Europe, China and perhaps Eastern Europe do all the casting.

Just like anything else China produces crap castings and good castings it all depends on the spec and quality control.

ttm · 18-11-2009 2:20pm

00jes wrote: »

Does anyone know where i could purchase a stanley stove that wont cost the earth. I had a few quotes today for a stanley Erin non boiler in a black enammel. the prices ranged from €1350 to €2020. i feel like im getting ripped off. Any thoughts?

The €1350 sounds good to me for the black enamel finish. Its a good stove and afaik like ALL THE OTHERS is made in China. You really just have to shop around, I'd always check this link to Gings as a starting point for prices and they look to have it in at €1899 euro so your €1350 if the enamel version is a good price but its easy for staff to get them mixed up.

sooty_soupy · 18-11-2009 2:29pm

Enamelled stoves are fine, but have a tendency to chip very easily and also in some cases, the expansion of an over burning stove has led to blistering in many cases. A matt stove with heat resistant paint should not be giving smells once the initial burning in process is complete which should take a few good fires. The only time that you will get smells is if you use polishes, or chemicals on the metal to "clean" it, or you respray or repaint your stove. The other major problem with smells coming from stoves, is the black condensate and moistures dripping onto the outside of the pipe and body of stove and will continue to give off a very unpleasant odour.

The advantage with a matt stove is you can always touch it up again too, and bring it up to pristine condition.

Keep in mind that a 12kw stove will require combustion air in the room. One of the features you should be looking for is the ability to bring this air directly to the stove rather than have to ventilate the room. All of our Clearview stoves will allow for this, meaning you are reducing draughts in the home. It is a requirement that this combustion air is introduced into all properties with any stove greater than 5kw, to reduce oxygen depletion in the property.

Hope this helps

David

CJhaughey · 18-11-2009 3:16pm

ttm wrote: »

Can you please prove your reoccurring statments? afaik NO ONE in Western Europe does any industrial scale casting so while many stoves are asembled in Europe, China and perhaps Eastern Europe do all the casting.

Just like anything else China produces crap castings and good castings it all depends on the spec and quality control.

Morso cast their own stoves in Denmark.

00jes · 18-11-2009 3:20pm

Thanks for the advice . I dident know there was so much to learn about stoves. just thought it was as simple as throwing it in and lighting her up.

sooty_soupy · 19-11-2009 10:34am

ttm wrote: »

Can you please prove your reoccurring statments? afaik NO ONE in Western Europe does any industrial scale casting so while many stoves are asembled in Europe, China and perhaps Eastern Europe do all the casting.

Let me throw this one right back to you then. Can you name me one "good quality" stove that has been cast in China. From what we have been led to believe in the industry, scrap metals throughout the west have been bought up by China. While resmelting, the concoction of metals used are bulked out and reformed to make plates. It is clearly cheap labour to have the Chinese assemble, so your statement about assembly in Europe is dubious to say the least. Lets look at it from a financial perspective. If Stanley, Mulberry, Horseflame, Brosley, Firefox to name but a few are buying the materials from China, then surely it makes financial sense to have the same people who cast the products, to assemble. This then brings into question the quality of assembly as well as the raw materials used in production. As far as we can see, the products might be packaged and distributed from the "manufacturer" but production is all to often outsourced.

You will find companies out there that will do all their own production, to ensure quality is not compromised, as CJhaughey has pointed out, and obviously you will pay for this....compare a Morso with a similar sized Mulberry for instance and you'll see what we mean.

Quality is something you have to buy. Pride in workmanship is something the company have, who do the work themselves to protect their brand. Do you want something hand built buy the company themselves or mass produced on the other side of the globe....like everything in life.. you have a choice.

It is just an opinion....if you want a stove that is going to stand the test of time, spend money on it. For example, the quickest we have seen a Horseflame stove burn out is 18 months....the backside of the stove is gone. Outside warranty....of course.....money well spent..... DON'T THINK SO !!!

Yes castings are hit and miss, and I will accept that some Chinese stuff might be ok, but why do Morso consistently produce a quality stove? and why are many of the other good stoves made of steel? ...Charnwood, Clearview, some of the Jotul and Morso stuff. Perhaps they are realising that manufacturing in steel, and giving you controllability of an air tight product means there is nothing wrong with a good quality steel stove and they are a lot more forgiving than that of a casting if the end user inadvertently over-burns it. Added to this, is the fact that weak joints between plates over time are not a problem with heavy steel as they are folded instead of jointed. In the case of Clearview, millions have been spent on welding equipment to double weld the only joint which is on the back plate. You will never see the inner weld, but it is there...quality, pride, perfection, call it what you will...but look at the price tag and you'll see it...but in 15, 20, 25, years you'll still see your stove.

A grate for an open fire....how long do you get out of one now....12-18 months perhaps..if you are lucky....why? Then ask yourself why the old Victorian fireplaces are still here after all the years of use they have had in the old stately homes etc

Need I say any more. Well I will say one more thing....The Irish were ROBBED last night. I reckon we should boycott Franco Belge stoves, they are designed in France even if they are not produced there...hmmmm sounds familiar...LOL

Have a good day

vanderbadger · 19-11-2009 12:25pm

sorry to interrupt but was shocked to hear stanley stoves were made in china, was fairly close to buying a stanley erin, just spoke to sales guy who tells me hunter are a better stove and recommended a hunter 8, anyway know anything on the hunter stoves?

ttm · 19-11-2009 12:31pm

@sooty_soup

I not disagreeing about quality products being just that quality products all I am saying is that it is difficult to prove where any companies castings are made.

Then I think you are missing a fundemental point about assembly in Europe, to pretend to have a quality product made in Europe the companies that stick their names on a product have to do a certain percentage of the work even if its just screwing the bits together to be able to claim that there product is for example Irish. If you import stuff and sell it straight out the box you are an importer but if you do the finishing assembly work you are a manufacturer.

When I check many of the various manufactures sites I find they often allude to having a history of casting but no mention of actually currently casting anything. Many however mention Vitreous Enamelling being part of the process they use in their factories. So why would a company not mention that they take pride in producing their own castings yet be keen to point out they do there own Enamelling and in some cases welding?

@ vanderbadger

That makes my point competely, because you now know Waterford Stanley have their castings made in China you are going to look at another stove and probably buy one were the castings are also made in China.

Edit> From Hunters website "Our team of engineers, designers, fitters and welders is based in mid Devon, where we’ve been creating award-winning stoves on a sooty assembly-line since 1996." No mention of who makes the castings?

cnocbui · 19-11-2009 12:49pm

ttm wrote: »

Can you please prove your reoccurring statments? afaik NO ONE in Western Europe does any industrial scale casting so while many stoves are asembled in Europe, China and perhaps Eastern Europe do all the casting.

Just like anything else China produces crap castings and good castings it all depends on the spec and quality control.

This page gives a very strong indication that Jøtul stoves are manufactured in Norway, so your blanket statement does not seem to be accurate.

http://www.randburg.com/no/jotulasa.html

Our manufacturing facilities in Norway include significant investments in filtration systems to minimise air emissions, which are currently far below government regulations; no effluents are released to the water at all.

Hydro-electric power is used in the iron melting process; in Norway electric power is water power Ñ the most environmentally-friendly source of energy on earth.

ttm · 19-11-2009 1:02pm

cnocbui wrote: »

This page gives a very strong indication that Jøtul stoves are manufactured in Norway, so your blanket statement does not seem to be accurate.

http://www.randburg.com/no/jotulasa.html

But you have to make blanket statements or intelligent people don't go looking for ways to shoot them down

I had been looking for something like that link for a while as I had it in the back of my mind that they used Hydro Electic power to melt the iron.

I would suspect both Jotul and Morso do there own casting but I really wouldn't want to stick my neck out and say that anyone else does.

cnocbui · 19-11-2009 2:57pm

Austroflamm stoves are said to be manufactured in Austria, but looking at a satellite image of their plant, I don't see any smoke stacks. However [SIZE=-2]EGM INDUSTRIEGUSS GmbH , AUSTRIA does cast iron, and there may be others, so it is perfectly possible that the claim may be valid.[/SIZE]

sooty_soupy · 19-11-2009 4:11pm

ttm wrote: »

@sooty_soup

I not disagreeing about quality products being just that quality products all I am saying is that it is difficult to prove where any companies castings are made.

Then I think you are missing a fundemental point about assembly in Europe, to pretend to have a quality product made in Europe the companies that stick their names on a product have to do a certain percentage of the work even if its just screwing the bits together to be able to claim that there product is for example Irish. If you import stuff and sell it straight out the box you are an importer but if you do the finishing assembly work you are a manufacturer.

When I check many of the various manufactures sites I find they often allude to having a history of casting but no mention of actually currently casting anything. Many however mention Vitreous Enamelling being part of the process they use in their factories. So why would a company not mention that they take pride in producing their own castings yet be keen to point out they do there own Enamelling and in some cases welding?

@ vanderbadger

That makes my point competely, because you now know Waterford Stanley have their castings made in China you are going to look at another stove and probably buy one were the castings are also made in China.

Edit> From Hunters website "Our team of engineers, designers, fitters and welders is based in mid Devon, where we’ve been creating award-winning stoves on a sooty assembly-line since 1996." No mention of who makes the castings?

Yes I agree, that is indeed a fair point, however I would draw your attention to the fact that you mentioned

"Just like anything else China produces crap castings and good castings it all depends on the spec and quality control."

I had to laugh at that based on the fact that high profile cases of Chinese production systems and the very lack of quality control would suggest that you would never give your kids anything to eat or play with if it came from China, let alone try to burn a fire inside your house with one of their products....Yeah I know...a controversial blanket statement, but thought provoking?

Nonmonotonic · 19-11-2009 5:16pm

I would like to suggest that the design of the stove is more important than the quality of the casting. If there is little heat in a particular area you could make it from aluminum! While that is an exaggeration it is true to say that even the best casting will burn through given enough heat, its a simple fact of physics. The suggestion that modern grates burn out quickly compared to Victorian cast iron does not mention that the heat escaped much easier in older fireplaces due to size i.e. heat is more concentrated in modern fires. I have a modern wood burning stove with a flexibility flue inside an old square firebrick chimney. When I hear the fire roaring up the flue I know its time to close the damper. Common sense would suggest that if this was not done the flue would not last too long. My point is that I am convinced that lesser quality casting in itself is a problem ( unless its really bad ) compared to good design.

burger1979 · 24-11-2009 11:38am

just a question on how people get their wood fires going/started?? the first fwe times i have used briquettes to get the fire going then throw the wood on top after the fire is going well. but last night i tried just starting the wood from the start. put some fire lighters on the grate sat the wood over it (not a big piece, quite thin too) and then left it. half an hour later the fire was out with the wood only half burned, all air controls were open fully. so went back to the briquettes to get it started. any advice on how others get their stove going?

ttm · 24-11-2009 2:02pm

burger1979 wrote: »

just a question on how people get their wood fires going/started?? the first fwe times i have used briquettes to get the fire going then throw the wood on top after the fire is going well. but last night i tried just starting the wood from the start. put some fire lighters on the grate sat the wood over it (not a big piece, quite thin too) and then left it. half an hour later the fire was out with the wood only half burned, all air controls were open fully. so went back to the briquettes to get it started. any advice on how others get their stove going?

Fire lighting and Pyromaniac activities

:D:D

If you need a load of briquettes to get the wood to light I wouldn't be surprised if the wood was too green (wet) to burn. If you bought it in recently I'd guarantee it was too green. On the other hand if the wood is OK I can't see how you can get a single log burning with one firelighter?

Think of lighting a fire as climbing up a ladder, you can't just jump to the top rung you have to go up rung at a time. So you might go match>lights couple of sheets of newspaper>lights kindling>lights logs. Also consider the surface area of the things you are burning, paper - large very large surface area to volume ratio > kindling medium surface area to volume ratio > logs low surface area to volume ratio, and that the larger the surface area you can get heat to the quicker it will burn; there is just too little surface area in a log for a firelighter to be able to get it to light, OK yeah you can sometimes get away with just a firelighter or two or three or four but what’s the skill in that.

Using fire lighters is fine but you still need a few sticks of kindling that will burn for a while (longer than the firelighter) to get the log going.

I don't burn briquettes anymore (too F'ing expensive) but when I did I found a single briket was a handy as kindling if you take an axe (or even a strong knife blade - just please be careful) and split one down to half a dozen pieces lengthways.

I have loads of kindling (drift wood sticks off the beach it dries out quicker than you'd think and bone dry construction timber) and to get a real quick fire going I use about half a stove full of kindling (no bits bigger than 1/2 inch thick) and poke a fire lighter in the bottom, but tbh all it really needs is half a dozen dry bits of kindling.

Also useful for firelighting are old paper spud bags and feed bags, they take up a lot of room in the stove but are great to get a big stove or cooker going with a bit of kindling and its one way to use them up

btw if you are buying firelighters I’ve found that the Super Value own brand ones the best value for price/burning time and the LIDL's ones about the worst. And for anyone that doesn't have a surplus of newspapers to start a fire then just ask any newsagent in the evening as they are only to pleased to be able to get rid of them.

burger1979 · 24-11-2009 2:31pm

thanks for the reply. i usually burn about 3 briquettes to start off with then after they have been going for about 1/2 an hour throw the wood on. i got 2 bales off my dad as he had just bought 60 for winter so i was just using them to see how it worked out burning them and the heat off them. the wood i bought so far has been from a shop in fonthill retail park and is just bundled up in a bag. it has been kiln dried. I am looking to order a big load of ash in the next week or so. when i put it on the fire it seems to take hold, though thats with using the briquettes. i need to get some kindling but dont want to use news papers or wood that i just found (no where to dry it). what about a shoveful of coal to get things going?
how do you judge if the wood is too green or not? every piece that i have handled is very dry and there is no 'cracking' sound from the fire when the wood is in there?

ttm · 24-11-2009 3:44pm

burger1979 wrote: »

how do you judge if the wood is too green or not? every piece that i have handled is very dry and there is no 'cracking' sound from the fire when the wood is in there?

If you burn ash that is too green you'll see the water dripping out of the end grain as the timber heats up on the fire (any wet green timber will do the same).

When you buy it you'll eventually get to know the look and feel of dry timber. Ash is a heavy timber (compared with softwoods) so can seem heavy even when dry enough to burn but when you look at a well seasoned log you'll see small splits on the end grain some of which may run the whole lenght of the timber and there will be an "old" look to the timber with the bark looking dried out (if any) and no fresh looking cut faces. If your not sure split a log in half and a freshly cut log will feel quite wet on the split surface.

This pdf on firewood might help, includes a method for actually measuring the water content.

CJhaughey · 24-11-2009 3:45pm

Seasoned wood will have end checking, that is if you look at the end grain it will have tiny cracks in it.
I can light my stove with just one firelighter,and 3 pieces of kindling.
Lay the fire lighter in the clean grate and place the 3 pieces of kindling over it allowing a small gap between the pieces 3-5mm then place heavier pieces over the kindling I open the ash door a crack and have the draught control open fully.
The secondary air control I leave just cracked open a tiny bit.
I never have problems with lighting the stove this way and the glass is always clear.
It helps to bring in a good amount of firewood and stack it next to the stove to bring it up to temp and dry it off a little.
Remember the wood has longer to come up to temperature if it is cold and damp and this all affects the starting process.
I bring in 2-3 days worth and stack it next to the stove to dry and warm and just replenish this as it get lower.

burger1979 · 24-11-2009 5:52pm

i have never seen water come out of the wood when burning and the wood that i have does look weathered (but dry on the outside with small cracks running down the sides of where it has been split). can you buy kindling? like small pieces of dried wood to burn first then throw the logs on?

CJ - i too leave the sove door open for the start to get the fire going with primary air fully open. the glass gets a bit dirty buts only cos i close if the fire is still going when i go to bed i close all the air controls.

ttm · 24-11-2009 6:06pm

burger1979 wrote: »

can you buy kindling? like small pieces of dried wood to burn first then throw the logs on?

Yes but you can also buy an axe:p Then pick out the best straightest grained bits of firewood you have and make your own. Kindling is all over the place, check any skip you pass, a few bits of straight grained constuction timber soon become kindling with a bit of effort and as I said you can even split up a briquette to make a kindling substitute.

burger1979 · 24-11-2009 6:21pm

the father in law has an axe might get it off him over the weekend and break some of the logs i have and make some out of that.

gsxr1 · 25-11-2009 2:44am

ttm wrote: »

Yes but you can also buy an axe:p Then pick out the best straightest grained bits of firewood you have and make your own. Kindling is all over the place, check any skip you pass, a few bits of straight grained constuction timber soon become kindling with a bit of effort and as I said you can even split up a briquette to make a kindling substitute.

thats what I do every day now. Small hatchet and a trunk . 5 mins work.

cheap as chips. Yesterdays news paper too.

jack of all · 25-11-2009 2:16pm

I agree with most of the above, except that I don't think it's advised to burn driftwood in your stove- it has a high salt content and theoretically this can cause damage to your stove and flue over time, if you burn enough of it!

aodh_rua · 25-11-2009 2:32pm

Quick question for you guys, I'm replacing an open gas fire with a Warrior Olive. I've had a few guys look at the job, and it looks like I need to install a flexiflue liner in the chimney with a cowl at the top.

It's a regular suburban detached house, single chimney running up to the roof (2 stories). Any idea how much the lining is going to cost? I'm able to find lots of suppliers but no per metre pricing.

soild fuel stove advise

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